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Catering to the "Casual Gamer"
Aerendir
Member Posts: 22
I'm posting this, in part, as a tangent from another user's post. The post that led me to debate this can be found at
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/128198
Catering to the Casual Gamer
This has been becoming a more and more popular trend of late, most notably after the success of World of Warcraft. This is, in my opinion, a double edged sword. To be perfectly honest, this trend is the reason I have become so burnt out with WoW of late. I see myself as a more "hardcore" MMO player, and as such I like content that enables me to push my character to a level that less dedicated people will be unable to attain. I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
Is this trend a good one? Perhaps. The answer is a grey area. It helps bring more people into the genre, thus giving MMOs a more dominant market face. As such, MMOs will receive more popularity over time. It means people with jobs, school, and real lives have a game they can play in the genre that is able to be played around their schedule. The downside to this is that those of us who want to do raids that require a large number of people are going to be given the short end of the stick. It means those of us who put in all the work and time to reach the plateau prior to this decision are now bored and left feeling like our work was all for naught. This is an issue that honestly depends on which side of the fence you stand on.
The other, somewhat obvious, motivation behind this is profit. A larger section of the market for MMOs is...the casual gamer. There are far more people looking for a casual MMO than a very demanding one. This has led to more and more publishers looking to make easier, more casual MMOs. This presents a very real problem to those of us wanting a challenging game. Simply put, which is more realistic; a publisher aiming at the narrow market for truly hardcore MMO players, or, a publisher aiming for the much larger market of casual gamers?
After all, MMOs were pioneered by UO and EverQuest. These games were not designed to be "casual", there was no "well, I'll get on and play for an hour to run a random endgame event " in these games. Endgame is supposed to be just that; the plateau of achievement. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of challenge and reward in the game. It's not supposed to be a very difficult, very long, very hard process that has rewards that will set you apart from those who are unable to do it.
The question I would most like to pose, however, is: how this is going to impact the MMO genre overall? Does the MMO industry need to be geared more towards casual gamers? What will happen to the genre if all the games that are released from here on are designed with the casual gamer in mind? Is there going to be a place left for those truly hardcore gamers if/when the market is dominated by games geared for the casual gamer market?
That said, I'd like to relay my own personal experience and disgust with this issue.
The biggest gripe I have with this is directed at Blizzard, due simply to the fact that I put so much work and effort into their game, only to have it thrown in my face when The Burning Crusade came out when they decided that the truly difficult, truly hardcore dungeons were not going to be included anymore. The level of content and challenge I wanted had been done away with. The biggest slap in the face and alienation for me, however came from their Account Cancellation, which went something like this:
They ask for a reason for leaving. I answer "Lack of 40 man raids" from their dropdown list. Their pop-up says "Did you know: 40 man raids such as Naxx and Molten Core are still accessable?" My response "..." What they're basically saying is "They're still there and you can still run them...despite being 10 levels past what they were designed to be challenging at....with gear far beyond the rewards you can gain in the instance in question....and we don't care." /sigh GG Blizzard
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/128198
Catering to the Casual Gamer
This has been becoming a more and more popular trend of late, most notably after the success of World of Warcraft. This is, in my opinion, a double edged sword. To be perfectly honest, this trend is the reason I have become so burnt out with WoW of late. I see myself as a more "hardcore" MMO player, and as such I like content that enables me to push my character to a level that less dedicated people will be unable to attain. I want to have weapons, armor, and items that other people don't. That is honestly one of the biggest drives for a lot of MMO players.
Is this trend a good one? Perhaps. The answer is a grey area. It helps bring more people into the genre, thus giving MMOs a more dominant market face. As such, MMOs will receive more popularity over time. It means people with jobs, school, and real lives have a game they can play in the genre that is able to be played around their schedule. The downside to this is that those of us who want to do raids that require a large number of people are going to be given the short end of the stick. It means those of us who put in all the work and time to reach the plateau prior to this decision are now bored and left feeling like our work was all for naught. This is an issue that honestly depends on which side of the fence you stand on.
The other, somewhat obvious, motivation behind this is profit. A larger section of the market for MMOs is...the casual gamer. There are far more people looking for a casual MMO than a very demanding one. This has led to more and more publishers looking to make easier, more casual MMOs. This presents a very real problem to those of us wanting a challenging game. Simply put, which is more realistic; a publisher aiming at the narrow market for truly hardcore MMO players, or, a publisher aiming for the much larger market of casual gamers?
After all, MMOs were pioneered by UO and EverQuest. These games were not designed to be "casual", there was no "well, I'll get on and play for an hour to run a random endgame event " in these games. Endgame is supposed to be just that; the plateau of achievement. It is supposed to be the pinnacle of challenge and reward in the game. It's not supposed to be a very difficult, very long, very hard process that has rewards that will set you apart from those who are unable to do it.
The question I would most like to pose, however, is: how this is going to impact the MMO genre overall? Does the MMO industry need to be geared more towards casual gamers? What will happen to the genre if all the games that are released from here on are designed with the casual gamer in mind? Is there going to be a place left for those truly hardcore gamers if/when the market is dominated by games geared for the casual gamer market?
That said, I'd like to relay my own personal experience and disgust with this issue.
The biggest gripe I have with this is directed at Blizzard, due simply to the fact that I put so much work and effort into their game, only to have it thrown in my face when The Burning Crusade came out when they decided that the truly difficult, truly hardcore dungeons were not going to be included anymore. The level of content and challenge I wanted had been done away with. The biggest slap in the face and alienation for me, however came from their Account Cancellation, which went something like this:
They ask for a reason for leaving. I answer "Lack of 40 man raids" from their dropdown list. Their pop-up says "Did you know: 40 man raids such as Naxx and Molten Core are still accessable?" My response "..." What they're basically saying is "They're still there and you can still run them...despite being 10 levels past what they were designed to be challenging at....with gear far beyond the rewards you can gain in the instance in question....and we don't care." /sigh GG Blizzard
Comments
Not bad when you consider the absurd time intensity of mmorpgs. Making them more casual isn't a bad thing from that perspective.
Any way in which the market expands is good.
The more users that are involved the more interest investors have. The more investors there are the higher the probability that one of the fringe concepts will be given capital investment.
It's at the fringe that you see the most radical innovation. These games rarely garner a lot of commercial success, but they act as a proving ground for new ideas. When something works, it eventually is adopted in the mainstream where the big dollars are.
So the wider the expansion of the market, the higher the odds that innovation enters the bloodstream. You may have to endure some AAA games with little new to offer, but you'll see a lot more indie games show up with some fascinating (if unpolished) ideas.
But until then it is WoW, WoW-Clone 1, WoW-Clone 2 and Hidden WoW-Clone 3 until minorities become more profitable.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
While the difference is significant and nice, unfortunately it's not enough.
And combine this with the fact that there are a great many people that want good depth to the advancement but don't have the time to grind it all out and this explains an interesting conundrum. Developers assume casual = simple. Just because some people don't want to spend 20+ hours a week on a game does not mean the game has to be simple. But additional complexity typically brings additional time required, not necessarily for learning, but because there's that many more facets to "grind".
Just because someone doesn't have 40+ hours a week to dedicate to a game, doesn't mean they don't like a "harcore" and deeply complex experience.
The term that is relevant here is "elitist".
Equal opportunity troll.
I can see where the OP is coming from hes saying that since a mmorpg has been made mainstream its going to remove a lot of barriers which are appealling to some mmorpg fans. Although, it might be worth pointing out EvE Online being 'casual' and having depth.
Agent_X7 AKA J Star
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Notice: The views expressed in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of MMORPG.com or its management.
So does EQ2.
" Its ironic, that F2P games are becoming more complex with innovative features while P2P games are dumbing down to attract casual players. I used to think F2P is a joke, but after trying many of them I have more hope for the F2P market than P2P market.
P2P games cost millions of dollars now, so nobody will take risks trying new ideas. But, F2P games are cheap to produce so developers can be creative and experiment with new ideas.
I hate WoW and LotRO and all the future oversimplified hollywood MMOs. Its a sad state when F2P could be the last hope for new ideas. "
Thanks to WoW, and proven by LotRO, there are only 3 things you need to sell a MMO. Gimmicks, brands, and polish. F2P games are coming out by the dozen now so the standard is quickly rising. Don't get me wrong I hate F2P item malls, kiddy graphics, mega grind, and unprofessionalism, but now I see how fast they're improving. When it comes to big budget MMOs, all I see is content, and complexity fading away.
As far as my shinies go, in reply to Sniper, yeah, that's a really....youthful way of putting it. If you still don't understand why this bothers me, reread the paragraph above.
The fact of the matter is simple. When you make a game that presents such an in depth and challenging endgame environment, your expansion should carry that same form of content. Developers need to realize that when they're looking at their consumers, two things are true:
1. Every other MMO that comes out is going to try to clone the most popular one out. That said, when the most popular one out is aiming to involve the "casual" market segment, there will be no game for those of us who are "elitist". If those of you who don't like elitist players want us gone from your game, you might wanna think about what that means for you. If your game you love so much is the only one that's getting cloned, we're gonna be there with you in whatever game you're playing.
2. If WoW remains as popular as it is, it will retain the stranglehold it has on the market. Nobody wants to develop a MMO that isn't a WoW clone right now, as it is obvious they'd be in direct competition with WoW on the market, and fighting for the market against WoW is not something many developers want to attempt.
I've slowly come to the conlusion that, at this point, I really want WoW to die. I doubt it will, at least not for a very long while, but after seeing Burning Crusade come out and seeing some of the upcoming MMOs to be released, I'm becoming hopeful it will at least take a hit in terms of subscribers.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
As far as my shinies go, in reply to Sniper, yeah, that's a really....youthful way of putting it. If you still don't understand why this bothers me, reread the paragraph above.
The fact of the matter is simple. When you make a game that presents such an in depth and challenging endgame environment, your expansion should carry that same form of content. Developers need to realize that when they're looking at their consumers, two things are true:
1. Every other MMO that comes out is going to try to clone the most popular one out. That said, when the most popular one out is aiming to involve the "casual" market segment, there will be no game for those of us who are "elitist". If those of you who don't like elitist players want us gone from your game, you might wanna think about what that means for you. If your game you love so much is the only one that's getting cloned, we're gonna be there with you in whatever game you're playing.
2. If WoW remains as popular as it is, it will retain the stranglehold it has on the market. Nobody wants to develop a MMO that isn't a WoW clone right now, as it is obvious they'd be in direct competition with WoW on the market, and fighting for the market against WoW is not something many developers want to attempt.
I've slowly come to the conlusion that, at this point, I really want WoW to die. I doubt it will, at least not for a very long while, but after seeing Burning Crusade come out and seeing some of the upcoming MMOs to be released, I'm becoming hopeful it will at least take a hit in terms of subscribers. Cliff notes for those who didn't want to read:
QQ
Equal opportunity troll.
"Casual gamers" are people who dont consider gaming a serious hobby. They are the kind of person who only plays World of Warcraft, because every other kid at his school is doing it.
WoW has shown us that anyone will play, if everyone else is. Even pornstars have claimed to play WoW.
Think of it like this.
Everquest is white wine, UO is red wine, and WoW is water. Everyone drinks water. EQ gets jealous that WoW is making more money, so EQ stops making wine and now sells water, with a different label. Now UO sees how much money EQ made from selling water, so UO switches to selling water too. (in a cooler looking bottle of course) Now the people who liked to drink wine have nothing left but water. They can't not drink water or they'll die. So, without any wine to drink they are forced to drink the same fetid crap that spews from Blizzard's orifices, or the same fetid spewage (in a cooler looking bottle) now sold by EQ and UO.
understand now?
There is no such thing as a "casual" MMO.
If something provokes thought, some people won't like those thoughts. To sell MMOs to more people, they have to require less thinking.
Thank you Blizzard. We are at the zenith of MMO sales, and you have shown us the quickest way there.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
"Casual gamers" are people who dont consider gaming a serious hobby. They are the kind of person who only plays World of Warcraft, because every other kid at his school is doing it.
WoW has shown us that anyone will play, if everyone else is. Even pornstars have claimed to play WoW.
Think of it like this.
Everquest is white wine, UO is red wine, and WoW is water. Everyone drinks water. EQ gets jealous that WoW is making more money, so EQ stops making wine and now sells water, with a different label. Now UO sees how much money EQ made from selling water, so UO switches to selling water too. (in a cooler looking bottle of course) Now the people who liked to drink wine have nothing left but water. They can't not drink water or they'll die. So, without any wine to drink they are forced to drink the same fetid crap that spews from Blizzard's orifices, or the same fetid spewage (in a cooler looking bottle) now sold by EQ and UO.
understand now?
That said, your metaphor for this is excellent, and will, hopefully, get the point across, since I apparently used words that only the intelligentsia can understand, because the majority of the responders didn't even acknowledge the true point of my post's contents.
Anyway, to respond to all the replies made since my last post:
1. paulscott: even the most casual gamer in WoW goes semi-hardcore in the end, or quits.
Response: Not accurate. There's a difference between hardcore and running instances/raids. Hardcore was what the people running Naxx, AQ40, and BWL prior to Burning Crusade were. Running Kara and the new 20 man stuff is far from hardcore. Anyone with half a 70 class that has quested in Nagrand and Netherstorm that has 3 hours can do pretty much any of the content in WoW now. That is far from any viable definition of "hardcore" playing.
2. StanlyManly: Cliff notes for those who didn't want to read:
QQ
Response: If you decide you have anything that adds real value or depth to the conversation going on here, please feel free to post again. Until such time, I'm not even going to bother acknowledging your future posts. Feel free to troll away and flame me for it, but if you want to show me up and prove that you can one up me, I'll lay out a challenge for you: If you don't reply again within say.....a week, I give my word, on penalty of never posting on the site again, that I'll make a thread praising you for showing me up. Take it or leave it.
3. achesoma: There is no such thing as a "casual" MMO.
Response: Reference any Free to Play MMO, City of Heroes, City of Villains, or Guild Wars, just to name a few.
4. bahamut1: What WoW clones? Which games are WoW clones?
Response: Look at just about any MMO in development at the moment. They are all cloning various aspects of WoW in hopes that the game will be as successful as WoW has been. With the exception of PotBS, Warhammer, and maybe a few others that didn't really look interesting enough to my personal preferences, they all fall into that category. Even MMOs already on the market have begun to do it, as pointed out in an earlier thread.
I have never played WoW so I cannot comment but the best example I can offer is LotRO. While it is a very well made game (uniquely so in this day and age of releasing unfinished crap) it is utterly juvenile in the level of character development and combat simplicity. Now, please, don't derail the topic arguing about what I said about LotRO as I use that only as an example, the adjectives are the important part not the non in terms of that prior comment. I suppose the economics of MMS are what drive this push to dumb everything down to a level that is conquerable by the largest number of people because the cost of developing a quality MMO today is so high. But as with most things that search for the lowest common denominator rather than searching for innovation it is a slippery slope and usually a one way ticket to a bust.
MMOs are boring anymore - they offer little challenge, less discovery, and little to no real chance to create a unique here and a a unique experience. I have high hopes for the next generation of MMOs as I think the introduction of new gaming technologies (realistic environments governed by physics) and real time combat will serve to reinvigorate the genre, at least I hope so.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
Let me see, because you have more free time than casual gamers, you feel entitled to have something "extra" or "special"?
The casual gamers pay the same per month as someone who is hardcore. Why should casual gamers not have the same access to items in a game as hardcore players? The only difference is the amount of time. Casuals should still be able to do everything too. Hardcore gamers want to be "special". Well than think that way. But no way am I going to agree that a hardcore gamer is entitled to anything more than what a casual gamer or any other gamer in a particular game can obtain.
Casual gamers are the meat and potato customers for MMOs, the hardcore gamers are playing the FotM game.
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Achiever 60.00%, Socializer 53.00%, Killer 47.00%, Explorer 40.00%
Intel Core i7 Quad, Intel X58 SLi, 6G Corsair XMS DDR3, Intel X-25 SSD, 3 WD Velociraptor SATA SuperTrak SAS EX8650 Array, OCZ 1250W PS, GTX 295, xFi, 32" 1080p LCD
If you are "limited with poor intellect" and have to pick between casuals or hardcore, by all mean pick the casuals.
If you a bright dev, then make the game for both. I suggest checking CoV and CoH on this. They are not perfect games, but they appeal to very casuals players...and to peoples who are considered completely nut on the hardcore side...
Catering to the casual gamer is a good thing. Shafting everyone else isn't. A casual has a right to rules and master what he is doing. He doesn't have to master everything in the game. But heck, if we are in a lowbie zone and the casual put the require effort to master that zone, then nobody should be better then him here. The King of Crushbone should be any level 10+ that get Emperor gear! Nobody should be better then him ever..in Crushbone.
A level cap on every zone, a gear cap and so on is the first step toward success. See CoV or CoH as to how implementing level caps. Also check these games for the inventions and how it used to work prior that, that is just great.
Casuals needs goals. Reaching next level is something...but reaching the TOP of Zone A, wow, that is a great thing...after that, nobody will be better then you in said zone (the character I mean). These goals doesn't need to suppress everything else. I don't think any casual would seriously be angry that in the 947349043734349 layers of the abyss I am the King and they never went past level 3 of the Abyss, as long as they can master everything up to that point, every zone, and every previous layer.
Casuals are players like everyone of us...and they deserve RESPECT. They won't be happy at been a subpar character that is a lame version of what Anofalye is playing. Nope, they may be nice and nod very sweetly toward me, but they won't settle for that anymore (even if they want to, and may for sometimes, in the long run, they won't). They have a right to expect that if they can do Crushbone, they can master it...not see me come with +845783453 levels and gear of the plane of uberness and make them feels weak. Casuals have a right to MASTER what they do. At the same time, I have a right, as a hardcore dimwit fanatic, to have more objectives, more goals, to go deeper...be it Crushbone 94, or another new zone or whatever, but there is no way in hell that the casual should be weaker then me if he spents the time to get a few trinkets to master the first zone...then work a little(triple the time?) for the next zone or whatever. So a casual can master up to what he cares, then stop, he master it, completely, no hardcore comes with epeen owning the lowbies zones...and if he wants, he can comes and play by the hardcore setting in the hardest zones and either reach level cap, max it, or stop at any moment where he thinks it is too much. In such a game, the casual feels subpar in 1 zone, he is my equal (or better as I may skip some zones and not gain the extra edges for them) in every zone of the game except the last one...or those he choose to not care about.
See, in life, 95% of the problems arise from a lack of respect. A casual has no problem to concede that I am better then him in the uberest, hardest, most incredible zone...I mean, he sees my efforts and all. However, a casual has every right to feel shafted and that he doesn't get the respect he deserves if he is always weaker then me, this is not normal. A casual shouldn't always be weaker in every setting and situation. A casual has a right to compete and outdo me if I just outlevel a zone to reach the endlevels...since even if I am level 90 and he is level 30, I didn't put the effort in ZoneF, where he is hunting now...so if I enter zoneF, the casual should be stronger then me...as he is achieving that zone which I just outlevel and skip. Respect is everything, and the casuals deserve it. Been always weaker is a complete lack of respect from the game toward their gamestyle.
PS: Such a problematic as to respect is new to games...as games are usually short span, not meant to be played more then a few weeks, so the respect point doesn't even arise in such games. MMORPGs are differents...and they bring the respect issue, as a casual as a right to master what he does, like everyone of us. He doesn't need to master the whole game, but what he does, that is his right. If he ignores the whole games except 1 zone, and he only master it, then he is achieving something and having fun and he put the limit there...hopefully he will try the next zone which should be slightly longer and harder to master...and you can go endlessly...all the way to the sky...yeah...I am an irreductible unlimited levels fans...however, I believe that each zone should have a level cap, in order to allow the game to have an unlimited amount of levels...so everyone can master everything they care for and put a limit where they want to...and the devs can temporarily disable my account when they feel I need to sleep, but I rather have them not to!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
altairzq - No entitlements in MMOs for playing more or less. Everyone should have opportunity and access to the same stuff. I'm convinced now they should make an MMO for special needs. A customer base that thinks they are entitled to something "extra". They could make special unique items where only 1 character on 1 account can ever get. Taking the collector's edition ideas to a whole new level. A special needs game might cost more than $15 a month but that doesn't matter because gamers with lots of free time will be playing it more to get their special needs met.