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A Sad Ending For Such a Hyped Game...
alyndale
Member UncommonPosts: 936
From what I can glean from information in this forum is that, apparently, Brad actually became less of a factor in decision making after Microsoft left and SOE entered.
From what I can tell he was almost nonexistant as the CEO towards the end? The process was placed in the hands of people with very little social leadership skills and many ideas and thoughts were over looked or simply ignored.
Additionally, am I to understand that this game alledgedly was suppose to have been over 4 years in the planning, design, and development stage, and truthfully only 15 months were actually spent planning, designing, and developing? What did they do those 3 years? Play Pacman?
This is truly a sad end to what some of us were bamboozeled into thinking was going to be a "next generation" MMO.
I just hope that folks from those upcoming MMO's get the message here. Hopefully those companies will do the right thing by the many that wait excitedly for these games to release.
From what I can tell he was almost nonexistant as the CEO towards the end? The process was placed in the hands of people with very little social leadership skills and many ideas and thoughts were over looked or simply ignored.
Additionally, am I to understand that this game alledgedly was suppose to have been over 4 years in the planning, design, and development stage, and truthfully only 15 months were actually spent planning, designing, and developing? What did they do those 3 years? Play Pacman?
This is truly a sad end to what some of us were bamboozeled into thinking was going to be a "next generation" MMO.
I just hope that folks from those upcoming MMO's get the message here. Hopefully those companies will do the right thing by the many that wait excitedly for these games to release.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Comments
Vanguard has not and is still up and running. This is very likely a good thing for the game itself. Its obviously not good for the folks that lost their jobs, but speaking just of Vanguard, IMO this will be good for it and MAY keep it afloat. But either way, it has not met its end yet.
Vanguard hasnt "ended" and I think SOE will be good for the game. No matter what your opinion is of SOE they have talented people and the money to see it done right. I hope and wish good things for Vangaurd.
Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
Lao-Tze
SOE is a business, and like any successful business they recognize the bottom line is paramount. If they believe they can get profits by fixing the gaping flaws in Vanguard, they will do that. If they think it will cost too much money to make the game profitable, the game will be shut-down with no remorse.
Now SOE has hired back some of Sigil employees. That would indicate that they have an interest in trying to repair what was wrought by Brad M and the other clueless Sigil managers.
But nothing is certain. The re-hired workers don't even have scripting tools for pity's sake. And SOE will probably be setting some hard deadlines as well.
I believe the SOE aquisition is neither a guaranteed salvation nor certain doom for Vanguard. Things are in a state of flux at the moment. SOE has to dig into the Sigil wreckage and see what's salvagable. They may very well find that there's nothing worth the effort 2 months down the line. Or maybe they'll turn things around.
This isn't over yet. But at least Vanguard will no longer have the burden of Brad M weighing it down.
Or it could also get worse like SWG and MxO.
SOE figured out a while ago that they don't need one good game when they can offer a bunch of shitty ones.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When they take the right actions we will see an awesome game in Sptember.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I would agree, its a bit of a drama.
SOE may pour money into it and get a better game, they may let it tick over.
Who knows... oh yeah Smedley
Now playing: VG (after a long break from MMORPGS)
Played for more than a month: Darkfall online, Vanguard SOH, Everquest, Horizons, WoW, SWG, Everquest II, Eve
Cmon ppl, how ignorant do you have to be to realize that SOE (Sony) is only in it for the buck; so that means they will milk every last cent they can out of ppl by making as many false promises as they can. Vanguard is pretty much only going to be fed enough to keep the appearance of being worked on and maintained.
Evidence:
-Station Access/Sony Exchange; they take a piece of the action
-SWG; enough said
-Vanguard; launch, support, maintenance, dupes (still in the game), sale of game
-they way they treat their customers like criminals (rootkit on CDs last year, oh and again this year)
-PS3; enough said
-the fact that they think their name will carry their brand, most Sony stuff nowadays is shit
Blah blah blah...
From everything that's been posted and all the theories out there, the predominant thinking seems to be that SOE is a good thing for Vangaurd. With all the complaints and issues people have discussed, I almost have to believe this is true. However, as with so many things, only time will tell and SOE has at least bought that.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Btw, your evidence list is stupid. Here's my evidence list:
-EQ2 was horrible at launch, yet they've turned it around.
-Vanguard really wasn't SOE's fault, it seems. Read that Ex-Dev interview.
-I'm fairly certain SOE didn't produce the PS3. As far as I know, all they've done is create online games for PS. Everquest is the only one that comes to mind.
-The fact that they recognize that name recognition means a lot in any market is smart, not stupid. Obviously they don't count on the name to carry their product, though. (See EQ2 above)
Stop hating on SOE for no reason. I plan on reactivating my VG account once more content is added.
Im sure you are aware that all MMO companies are in it for the bucks too my friend. I wont defent SOE for its past mistakes, but to go out and single them out cuz they onnly want the bucks isnt fully accurate. And as you should know any business will do its best to make the most profits out of its investment. SOE as a division has done many mistakes one main issue was believing in releasing half asses expansions (EQ) and half finished games (EQII) but if anything those mistakes can be used to learn and move on. They will at some point make those changes or simply vanish like many before it. In all businesses flexibility is a great asset to have.
Everyone is in it for the money, not one of these companies would be doing this work if there wasnt money to be made. Wether SOE seems to stand out as the most money hungry or not im not sure, i personally never played any of their games and therefore im indiferent about their practices. But from a business perspective the issue with SOE is management, they seem to have talent. Now if only those people were allowed to work with a lil bit more slack.
Btw, your evidence list is stupid. Here's my evidence list:
-EQ2 was horrible at launch, yet they've turned it around.
-Vanguard really wasn't SOE's fault, it seems. Read that Ex-Dev interview.
-I'm fairly certain SOE didn't produce the PS3. As far as I know, all they've done is create online games for PS. Everquest is the only one that comes to mind.
-The fact that they recognize that name recognition means a lot in any market is smart, not stupid. Obviously they don't count on the name to carry their product, though. (See EQ2 above)
Stop hating on SOE for no reason. I plan on reactivating my VG account once more content is added.
SOE has a right to make money. They're an arm of a big corporation. That is what they do. They sell a service.
That service is the panoply of games in their stable.
Per course, Sony will most likely do the same thing for vanguard as they did for the other games: look at the code, look at the problems, and make a judgment as to how much to spend to fix the problems.
Chances are they have dev tools in place that could be modified to fit vanguard content in some ways at least, and part of their profit model is to add content, so I imagine that will get addressed.
They hired some of the Vanguard developers, whom I imagine are probably happy to have the job. They'll be motivated in the short term at least.
Additionally, SOE values their name in the mmorpg world as the most well known. They'd be silly not to. Name recognition means a lot to new converts. The eager newbies stumble through best buy or wal-mart or target or frys and see SOE game after game sitting on the shelf in the mmorpg section.
They'll likely either have friends that pointed them to WOW or EVE or some other game or they will choose SOE.
Veterans of more than one system and particularly the older-timers (like me) tend to pick games we've never heard of just to see what they're like. Most of them suck.
However, with the included month + the box price I usually get what I feel is my money's worth. (I'd play any other box game around a month if I loved it, and the worlds are always bigger, so it is usually a win.)
That being said, I don't give second chances anymore. If a game pisses me off, I'm gone forever. Another game will come along to hold my interest. I might not play mmorpgs for a while (like now), but one'll come along.
That attitude might seem harsh, but I've given numerous games second chances and have been disappointed every time. (EQ, EQ2, SWG, AO, MxO, EVE, CoH and others.) I've learned my lesson. Plus, I'm not rewarding failure or deceit, so I'm doing good at the same time.
Name one business that isn't out to make money. These are games to us. It's business to them and you can't blame them for wanting to make money. With the acquistion of VG, SOE went from having a small investment as the publisher to having a huge investment as the sole owner. SOE must have seen something in VG to take it in the shape that it's in. They think they can turn it around and make money on it. Whether or not they can actually do it only time will tell. As for your evidence list it only proves one thing. SOE is business trying to make money. Not everything you do in business is going to work. It's easy to say they should do this or that but when you have investors and shareholders to answer to things aren't so simple.
Jeff Butler was still talking hype after launch. pc.gamespy.com/pc/vanguard-saga-of-heroes/761165p1.html. You have to wonder what was going through his mind.
I particularly like this one:
"It wasn't our desire to hammer people in terms of system specs, it was our desire that when we asked people to upgrade (if we had to), that we'd really reward them for their investment in hardware. If I'm going to ask you to go out and buy a brand new video card to play my game, I promise you that you'll appreciate the result. That was what we were thinking when we put Vanguard together. Everyone wants to have a reason to upgrade their computer when it's time, but you want to feel like you got your money's worth. - Jeff Butler
Maybe we will yet see "nine iconic classes"
The game doesn't even qualify for a 2nd gen game.
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Check out some of the mmo's I have played:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/129987/page/1
PC STATS:
- Q9550
- Evga GTX 280 SSC x2 (SLI)
- 8GB DDR3
- Nforce 790i Ultra
I think SOE will apply the lessons they learned from SWG and EQII, and modify VG until it's in good shape. I think it'll take more effort than they expected, and will take quite a while, by which time EQII will be showing its age, and VG will be ready to step forwad with a relaunch (to scramble a metaphor) to take EQII's place.
But it's gonna take a while....
One thing I REALLY wonder, why did SOE really buy Vangaurd? They dont seem like a company made of winner games. I mean, I liked EQ2 and SWG a long time, but their prime is long gone. Beyond that they carry a big list of more or less crap and now VG... If I were in charge of SOE, I NEVER would have bought VG! Not that is has no future, but can it REALLY ever get out of the niche? One side wants minimal changes, but that means stay to the niche, others suggest deep changes, but... I fear they wont happen.
VG now is quite another niche as EQ2, but if they keep it in that niche, how can they ever get considerably more players?
The alternatives are clear: if they keep the game as it is and just correct bugs, technical issues and small stuff, they never will get much more than now. It will live on as some exotic flower like SWG with a publish (update) every now and then, some minor additions and thats it.
To really fetch a big audience they would have to make a REAL re-launch, including some deep changes, but I dont see that. Nothing I read or know about SOE hints that will happen.
So what is the purpose of buying VG at all? I just dont get it. It will still be too expensive just to let it die, I guess, but then what? Do they really think bug fixing and tech issues are enough to magically bring in tenthousands or hundret thousands of new players? The name VG is seriously damanged and nothing but a deep rework will change that! I just dont see that. I see and endless and tiresome stream of broken hopes, as in the aftermath of NGE. Thats sad. VG had deserved better, but I dont blame SOE. Sigils management drove the cart unto the wall. All the potential wasted. Really sad.
SOE really seems to have a talent for gathering ruined games and tending them. That does have a kind of charm, caring for the poor and sick, heh. But I dont see what they hope to gain with the acquisition of VG. Instead of 1 or 2 big succesfull games they want 20 mediocre ones getting the same amount of player, or what?
What I had hoped was, VG would be as immersive and complex as SWG and full of story and adventure like EQ2 or lately LOTRO. I really didnt care if VG was hard or easy. If a game is fun, exciting, immersive and has a story, a world that catches me, I dont care if levelling is slow or fast, easy or difficult. For me its the world, the experience that counts.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
"Or it could also get worse like SWG and MxO.
SOE figured out a while ago that they don't need one good game when they can offer a bunch of shitty ones."
I have to disagree, not trolling, but the game couldnt get much worse unless it just turned unplayable whatsoever. I don't see game much beyond early beta stage at this point.
Im hoping for the best for Vanguard. The game is going to call for alot of work, and I think sony might be able to make the game up to quality with eq2 but its going to take quite a long time. 6 months to year and a half, but game should be much much better off in months to come. Even though I own a copy of the game, it left such a bad impression on me and im sure others I doubt I would ever try it out again unless it got extremely good re-reviews
You know, thats a good question. SOE keeps picking up all of these half mangled MMO's and most of what they currently have is mediocre at best, it does make you wonder what their overall market strategy is. In the meantime, they raise the station pass to a price that does not even make it worth having, probably because cost to maintain all of these games is climbing.
Vanguard is going to require some SERIOUS work to bring in line and thats going to cost money, resources and TIME. Heck, according to the one ex-employee interview, the game doesn't even have a scripting tool, thats no small issue.
I don't see the long term benefit of picking up Vanguard. By the time they get it into any sort of playable/workable state so many more of the actual new generation MMOs will be launching or close to launch. Like many of the players have said in other post, populations are a problem. Since no MMO has ever recovered from a trainwreck launch, I don't see how this is going to change.
I'm not even sure if we can say that it's all Mc Quaid fault, to me it seems he just said "hey let's make a fantasy MMo with 16 classes!" back in 2002 and let other people do the coding and designing. Sure he's responsible for NOT managing, but i'd say regarding the state of the game, the fault it more on the shoulders of those who picked up the unreal2 engine and blocked creative and constructive attempts by the employees to fix the game while it was still in development.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.