I used to be really anti gold buying/selling. But I have a much more don't ask don't tell mindset these days.
The only thing that bugs me is farmers/sellers that interupt my game play by either just spamming over and over or trying to claim a zone as theirs and try to train you or do what they can to not let you kill mobs or do what you need to do in that zone.
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
1) It alters the economy. Some say it destroys the economy. If you don't buy gold, you can't afford to buy in game items from other players.
2) It alters the drop rate of rare/expensive items for the legitimate player. There are farmers that camp spots/areas in order to get that rare drop and sell it for real money. Hence the legitimate player can't get the drop.
3) Legitimate players are run out of areas by gold farmers so that the farmers have exclusive access to the rare drop sites. Chaining monsters to attack legitimate players is a common tactic. PVPing is another.
4) Game companies spend resources (time, money, etc) on preventing/stopping gold farmers. These resources could/should be going into making the game better.
That is why it matters to me. Yes, I am the one getting cheated. That is how it affects me.
Those are the big four that come to mind immediately. There have been any number of professional articles/reports done on gold farming and the negative impact on the industry as a whole and the player as an individual.
You realize that 3/4 of your reasons are based on the fact that the games are gear/item dependent?
So to solve it, why not make it less gear/item dependent and more character development/skill?
As for game companies use resources to preventing gold farmers, why not design a system where gold farming is USELESS? And most gold farming are based on loot and gear/item dependency, make craft > loot AND less gear/item dependent and you would have a better player economy.
Like I said, design problems, but got expand into this virtual gold selling/buying issue... Just something to think about.
Ok, I'm not going to argue if buying virtual gold is cheating or not, cause it doesn't matter. (playing the devil's advocate for now... will explain later)
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
Let me try and connect this to a real world scenario.
Lets say you work in a small company, and the management decided to give everyone a bonus, except for you. Does it effect you? Not really. Is it something that any person would have a problem with if they were put in that situation? Yes.
I know that example doesn't compare to the secondary market situation. The point is that just because something doesn't directly affect you, doesn't make it fair.
Now, to throw that all out the window: Too many people buying gold really screws up a game's economy. Every time someone buys massive amounts of gold, the gold you have loses value.
Ok, I'm not going to argue if buying virtual gold is cheating or not, cause it doesn't matter. (playing the devil's advocate for now... will explain later)
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
Let me try and connect this to a real world scenario.
Lets say you work in a small company, and the management decided to give everyone a bonus, except for you. Does it effect you? Not really. Is it something that any person would have a problem with if they were put in that situation? Yes.
I know that example doesn't compare to the secondary market situation. The point is that just because something doesn't directly affect you, doesn't make it fair.
Now, to throw that all out the window: Too many people buying gold really screws up a game's economy. Every time someone buys massive amounts of gold, the gold you have loses value. Yes, the scenario you used doesn't really compare, but I get what you are saying.
But this is also true: Life isn't fair.
I know people want a fair game, but when life intervenes, it isn't fair no matter what you do. The stronger/richer are most likely be the one that'll win.
Yes, I do agree that gold will screws up game's economy, but WHY? have you thought about why would it screw up? and think about HOW the gold farmers operate, and how they acquire the gold. And try to solve virtual gold trading through that angle rather than just say that it's bad and hope the company will take stronger action. We should try to get to the bottom and see the base issue, not the one that is more visible.
Yes, I do agree that gold will screws up game's economy, but WHY? have you thought about why would it screw up? and think about HOW the gold farmers operate, and how they acquire the gold. And try to solve virtual gold trading through that angle rather than just say that it's bad and hope the company will take stronger action. We should try to get to the bottom and see the base issue, not the one that is more visible.
The base issue is greed. Some people will do whatever they want in order to get (more) money. No game system will prevent players from trying to exploit it for their personal gain.
Your idea of a character based game rather than equipment based: We see it now with farmers selling characters. Powerleveling is a large part of any gold sellers website. If a game is solely based on character progression, you will see different issues arise: powerleveling, cheating, etc. BF2142 uses a purely character based system and you still see people in their cheating in order to advance. I am not sure if there are websites out there offering powerleveling for BF2142, but I am sure there would be if the player base was 8 million with an advancement scale similar to what would be required in a solely character advancement based system.
Your ideas have merit- but if all games are based solely around one form of progression, the industry may get a little ... stale.
Very nice post. Thank you. I would love to answer as it is fundamental to get to the bottom of why things are in place that are in place. Why does Blizzard, SoE, Sigil (God rest their soul), Turbine, and many others make these licenses and copyrights? Why do copyright laws even exist?
First of all, the basics. Copyright laws exist to protect authors, coders, artists, and etc from people that steal, yes, it is stealing in the true sense of the word, their ideas, and workings to make a profit of their own. If I take a copier, and copy pages of a magazine into a magazine called Bahamut's Magazine, and sold it as my own, it is WRONG. It is ILLEGAL. It is stealing someone else's work and selling it to people as my own work, and making a profit off someone else's ideas and work. A lot of people say, "Well, don't I spend TIME making all this in-game gold, and shouldn't I profit from spending my time to make the gold to sell?" NO. I spent time copying these pages, and making the binders and putting my magazine, that I stole, into circulation. It is EXACTLY the same thing. The pixels that are on your character sheet that says you have X gold is written and OWNED by the company. You spend time building that number to sell a number to someone else is exactly the same as copying pages out of a book or magazine and selling it as your own.
Now on to the rest:
Originally posted by Forcan
Ok, I'm not going to argue if buying virtual gold is cheating or not, cause it doesn't matter. (playing the devil's advocate for now... will explain later)
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU?
Because I am a consumer of (insert game here) and everything that happens in my world effects me. To be more specific, gold farmers spend unusual amounts of time, not coded for in game, to draw out as much raw material to stockpile to sell off to other players that do not spend the time to make said moneys. In-game gold is garnered and controlled in a CLOSED system by coding money sinks to control the flow of raw material in game to control inflation. Inflation is a natural course for a closed system where the bar is being raised higher and higher each expansion pack to be able to work for (spend in-game time) to acquire. These controls are then thrown out of whack when a number of "players" spend unusual amounts of time to make that money, and now you've introduced a new variable that CANNOT be coded for. Therefore, inflation rises and players that cannot be controlled within the game now have access to things they may or may not be able to at inflated values because there is no more control over a closed, now opened to an uncontrollable variable, system.
In lamen's terms, (if that completely confused you, I apologize) the money that I work for in game, using the controls set for me by the coders and the OWNERS of said system is now worth nothing in game because of an uncontrollable variable outside the game, otherwise known as farmers. Farmers take away raw materials in game, and now I HAVE to pay real money for said items because my in-game money is essentially worthless.
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU?
Sorry, kinda answered this in the last answer. Essentially, now people that DO "play by the rules" and follow correct procedure in-game are now cheated by the fact that anyone can go OUTSIDE the game's controls and ruleset and get whatever they want without following the rules set in game. As a tradeskiller, I have to compete with "players" with inhuman play times and unusual abilities because someone does not want to put in the effort to do what I, the person that DOES play by the rules, do.
I didn't even cover what will companies do about these types of problems. We pay for people stealing from Walmart by paying higher prices. We pay for insurance to protect us from other people breaking the law. Everything people does effects someone else, and it ALWAYS comes back to the consumer, ME and YOU. Games are getting tighter and tighter. Coding is getting more and more complex. Rulesets in games are being honed to control in-game mechanics from people that always try to take advantage. Will gaming time be restricted? Will "sandbox" games be ditched because people can't follow the rulesets of the games they play? Will my monthly price go up? Will the price of the game go up? What virus is going to attack my computer next to get my login information? It all effects everyone of us, and to deny it is just being ignorant of the rules of REAL LIFE. WoW doesn't have to suffer for it. If it costs them $10,000,000 to control a bunch of cheaters, who pays for it? The consumer, ME and YOU.
Of course you can say that you work a real job, support your family AND is able to play without buying the virtual gold. Good for you, but why does others buying in-game gold matters to YOU? Do you think that since you are able to do it so others must be able to do it?
It does not matter what I can do, or someone that buys gold can do. It is a matter of following the precedent set by the game developers, and game mechanics, to get what I need to enjoy the game that I play.
Sure, view it from the law and copyright that buying/selling gold is in fact illegal, but does that stop people? WHY doesn't it stop people from buying/selling virtual gold? Is it because the people who buy/sell is trying to break the laws for the sake of money? Is it because that some people just think game as another investment? Is it because that they have the choice all along? What does it mean to click the I AGREE on the ToS and EULA?
It means that I, as a consumer, and a player agree to follow the rules set for me in-game to get the things, or progress in said game for my enjoyment. If I cannot follow the rules to enjoy said game, then I should not play, or make my concerns known to the developers and make my choices accordingly. As long as those choices DO NOT break any laws, or rules, set before me by said game developer and/or owner.
There are so many questions that can be asked to see where the REAL problem lies. The virtual gold selling/buying is not just the problem, but a result to some of the underlying issues in game designs AND the way laws are applied in each case.
All that aside, can you say it honestly that you have NEVER lie/cheat in ANY game, whether is MMO or not? Because if you want to mention about being cheater, then let's get to the bottom. Is there ANYONE who has never cheated in anything in life? And HOW would you prove it?
It does not matter in this instance as the title of the thread is whether or not the practice of buying/selling gold/items in a game is right or wrong. It is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, beyond anyone's opinion, beyond anyone's circumstances WRONG, period. It does not matter if me and my family are starving to death on a street corner in the middle of winter, it is still ILLEGAL to break into someone's house and steal their stuff for my own profit.
Like I said, I'm NOT for virtual gold selling/buying, but I would like to get to the bottom of the issue, not just the surface issue. So I say let the gamers choose on their own. If they decided to use their own money and violating the rules, and are found, that's their own fault. But they are NOT subject to YOUR judgment, but the game company's. If they are lucky and were never found out, so what? Do you think that since you don't do it then that put you on a higher moral standard than others? Not really, but if you don't think it's right, you can try to persuade those around you to stop, but you can't MAKE them. It's their decision.
You are absolutely correct. People make choices every day. People speed to get to work on time, not realizing they are putting other people on the street in danger. People lie to others thinking it's ok to save face, or save their feelings. You have your own set of morals and have to decide every day what to do in different circumstances. All I'm saying is that no matter how late to work you are, you still put people's lives in danger, and the cop will STILL write you a ticket. It is still wrong, and it is illegal.
And one final thing. IF the law works, WHY is there still illegal drugs in this nation? If the law should make everything right, then why is there still a flow of illegal drugs everywhere? That's more or less something to think about.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Yes, I do agree that gold will screws up game's economy, but WHY? have you thought about why would it screw up? and think about HOW the gold farmers operate, and how they acquire the gold. And try to solve virtual gold trading through that angle rather than just say that it's bad and hope the company will take stronger action. We should try to get to the bottom and see the base issue, not the one that is more visible.
The base issue is greed. Some people will do whatever they want in order to get (more) money. No game system will prevent players from trying to exploit it for their personal gain.
Your idea of a character based game rather than equipment based: We see it now with farmers selling characters. Powerleveling is a large part of any gold sellers website. If a game is solely based on character progression, you will see different issues arise: powerleveling, cheating, etc. BF2142 uses a purely character based system and you still see people in their cheating in order to advance. I am not sure if there are websites out there offering powerleveling for BF2142, but I am sure there would be if the player base was 8 million with an advancement scale similar to what would be required in a solely character advancement based system.
Your ideas have merit- but if all games are based solely around one form of progression, the industry may get a little ... stale.
Well, a well-planned game system can and will prevent player/gold farmers to exploit for personal gain.
You are missing the idea that Powerleveling is an issue is because of the competitiveness of PvP and level gap between players. Also there is the problem of redundant quests that gets boring after a while. And people do not like to focus on that.
BTW, isn't BF2142 a FPS style game? and in FPS is more player skill, not character skills. (I have no idea since I didn't play BF 2142).
Anyway, back on topic. The present MMO genre ARE focusing on only one form of progression - level & class. I rather play a class-less and non-level based MMO (which is the Skill based in essence). There may be other choices and forms of progession, but the more popular one and the one that are being used in almost all game in development are level & class. So what's the difference when trying to use a different form to replace it?
And the thing is that, powerleveling CAN be limited and solved by having interactive quest/mission system and no class/level, it's up to the game developers to get creative in designing their game system.
Very nice post. Thank you. I would love to answer as it is fundamental to get to the bottom of why things are in place that are in place. Why does Blizzard, SoE, Sigil (God rest their soul), Turbine, and many others make these licenses and copyrights? Why do copyright laws even exist? First of all, the basics. Copyright laws exist to protect authors, coders, artists, and etc from people that steal, yes, it is stealing in the true sense of the word, their ideas, and workings to make a profit of their own. If I take a copier, and copy pages of a magazine into a magazine called Bahamut's Magazine, and sold it as my own, it is WRONG. It is ILLEGAL. It is stealing someone else's work and selling it to people as my own work, and making a profit off someone else's ideas and work. A lot of people say, "Well, don't I spend TIME making all this in-game gold, and shouldn't I profit from spending my time to make the gold to sell?" NO. I spent time copying these pages, and making the binders and putting my magazine, that I stole, into circulation. It is EXACTLY the same thing. The pixels that are on your character sheet that says you have X gold is written and OWNED by the company. You spend time building that number to sell a number to someone else is exactly the same as copying pages out of a book or magazine and selling it as your own. Now on to the rest:
Originally posted by Forcan
Ok, I'm not going to argue if buying virtual gold is cheating or not, cause it doesn't matter. (playing the devil's advocate for now... will explain later)
Let me ask this question: Why does it matter to YOU? Because I am a consumer of (insert game here) and everything that happens in my world effects me. To be more specific, gold farmers spend unusual amounts of time, not coded for in game, to draw out as much raw material to stockpile to sell off to other players that do not spend the time to make said moneys. In-game gold is garnered and controlled in a CLOSED system by coding money sinks to control the flow of raw material in game to control inflation. Inflation is a natural course for a closed system where the bar is being raised higher and higher each expansion pack to be able to work for (spend in-game time) to acquire. These controls are then thrown out of whack when a number of "players" spend unusual amounts of time to make that money, and now you've introduced a new variable that CANNOT be coded for. Therefore, inflation rises and players that cannot be controlled within the game now have access to things they may or may not be able to at inflated values because there is no more control over a closed, now opened to an uncontrollable variable, system. In lamen's terms, (if that completely confused you, I apologize) the money that I work for in game, using the controls set for me by the coders and the OWNERS of said system is now worth nothing in game because of an uncontrollable variable outside the game, otherwise known as farmers. Farmers take away raw materials in game, and now I HAVE to pay real money for said items because my in-game money is essentially worthless. You DON'T have to, that's the thing. You can choose NOT to and still be able to obtain the said items through in-game means. Normally that IS the case, but if you include inflation into the whole mess, then YES, it does matter and affects you.
Are you the one got cheated? How does this affect YOU? Sorry, kinda answered this in the last answer. Essentially, now people that DO "play by the rules" and follow correct procedure in-game are now cheated by the fact that anyone can go OUTSIDE the game's controls and ruleset and get whatever they want without following the rules set in game. As a tradeskiller, I have to compete with "players" with inhuman play times and unusual abilities because someone does not want to put in the effort to do what I, the person that DOES play by the rules, do. I didn't even cover what will companies do about these types of problems. We pay for people stealing from Walmart by paying higher prices. We pay for insurance to protect us from other people breaking the law. Everything people does effects someone else, and it ALWAYS comes back to the consumer, ME and YOU. Games are getting tighter and tighter. Coding is getting more and more complex. Rulesets in games are being honed to control in-game mechanics from people that always try to take advantage. Will gaming time be restricted? Will "sandbox" games be ditched because people can't follow the rulesets of the games they play? Will my monthly price go up? Will the price of the game go up? What virus is going to attack my computer next to get my login information? It all effects everyone of us, and to deny it is just being ignorant of the rules of REAL LIFE. WoW doesn't have to suffer for it. If it costs them $10,000,000 to control a bunch of cheaters, who pays for it? The consumer, ME and YOU.
Of course you can say that you work a real job, support your family AND is able to play without buying the virtual gold. Good for you, but why does others buying in-game gold matters to YOU? Do you think that since you are able to do it so others must be able to do it? It does not matter what I can do, or someone that buys gold can do. It is a matter of following the precedent set by the game developers, and game mechanics, to get what I need to enjoy the game that I play.
That's very true. But then again, there ARE still people that will disagree with the precedent set by the devs. Maybe because it is in someways flawed, and people are using that flaw and it got expand to the gold farming/selling/buying.
Sure, view it from the law and copyright that buying/selling gold is in fact illegal, but does that stop people? WHY doesn't it stop people from buying/selling virtual gold? Is it because the people who buy/sell is trying to break the laws for the sake of money? Is it because that some people just think game as another investment? Is it because that they have the choice all along? What does it mean to click the I AGREE on the ToS and EULA? It means that I, as a consumer, and a player agree to follow the rules set for me in-game to get the things, or progress in said game for my enjoyment. If I cannot follow the rules to enjoy said game, then I should not play, or make my concerns known to the developers and make my choices accordingly. As long as those choices DO NOT break any laws, or rules, set before me by said game developer and/or owner. I can see that you try to live life with a good moral standard, and that's very good. But the question I think is more important is that WHY even with the ToS and EULA, people still buy/sell virtual gold? There must be a reason for it, and that reason may be a key element in finding the best way to solve the issues at hand.
There are so many questions that can be asked to see where the REAL problem lies. The virtual gold selling/buying is not just the problem, but a result to some of the underlying issues in game designs AND the way laws are applied in each case.
All that aside, can you say it honestly that you have NEVER lie/cheat in ANY game, whether is MMO or not? Because if you want to mention about being cheater, then let's get to the bottom. Is there ANYONE who has never cheated in anything in life? And HOW would you prove it? It does not matter in this instance as the title of the thread is whether or not the practice of buying/selling gold/items in a game is right or wrong. It is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, beyond anyone's opinion, beyond anyone's circumstances WRONG, period. It does not matter if me and my family are starving to death on a street corner in the middle of winter, it is still ILLEGAL to break into someone's house and steal their stuff for my own profit.
Like I said, I'm NOT for virtual gold selling/buying, but I would like to get to the bottom of the issue, not just the surface issue. So I say let the gamers choose on their own. If they decided to use their own money and violating the rules, and are found, that's their own fault. But they are NOT subject to YOUR judgment, but the game company's. If they are lucky and were never found out, so what? Do you think that since you don't do it then that put you on a higher moral standard than others? Not really, but if you don't think it's right, you can try to persuade those around you to stop, but you can't MAKE them. It's their decision. You are absolutely correct. People make choices every day. People speed to get to work on time, not realizing they are putting other people on the street in danger. People lie to others thinking it's ok to save face, or save their feelings. You have your own set of morals and have to decide every day what to do in different circumstances. All I'm saying is that no matter how late to work you are, you still put people's lives in danger, and the cop will STILL write you a ticket. It is still wrong, and it is illegal.
And one final thing. IF the law works, WHY is there still illegal drugs in this nation? If the law should make everything right, then why is there still a flow of illegal drugs everywhere? That's more or less something to think about.
You focus on the moral idea of right and wrong, and the strong stand on the law of which clearly makes virtual gold buying/selling to be an illegal action. But why else are you doing to help the situation? (just want to ask since you can tell people they are right/wrong, but can you help them to solve the issues rather than jsut pointing the finger?)
Anyways, I kind of feel like we're all just talking in circles. The secondary market will always exploit cheap labor and make millions selling gold to people. All we can hope is that game providers don't decide that they want in on that money.
Well, a well-planned game system can and will prevent player/gold farmers to exploit for personal gain.
You are missing the idea that Powerleveling is an issue is because of the competitiveness of PvP and level gap between players. Also there is the problem of redundant quests that gets boring after a while. And people do not like to focus on that.
BTW, isn't BF2142 a FPS style game? and in FPS is more player skill, not character skills. (I have no idea since I didn't play BF 2142).
Anyway, back on topic. The present MMO genre ARE focusing on only one form of progression - level & class. I rather play a class-less and non-level based MMO (which is the Skill based in essence). There may be other choices and forms of progession, but the more popular one and the one that are being used in almost all game in development are level & class. So what's the difference when trying to use a different form to replace it?
And the thing is that, powerleveling CAN be limited and solved by having interactive quest/mission system and no class/level, it's up to the game developers to get creative in designing their game system.
All you are doing here is presenting another way gold sellers/buyers are affecting me and my choices in games. If I enjoy level/class based games, as well as or in spite of skill based games, then I am being limited to playing said games because of people not being able to follow the rules set in those type of games. Regardless of how interesting getting said gold/items is in a game, there will always be people that will go outside the game to get what they want and break the rules.
Limiting my choices in a game to enjoy is just another effect they have on me. Anyways, I truly believe that even a skill based system will still have a way to be exploited by someone truly wanting to "get an edge" in any game they play. Whether it is buying characters, items, programs/bots to enhance my skill, or any number of ways to gain that edge without putting forth any real effort within the game rules. This is computer gaming after all, and nothing has been bulletproof yet. Even Quake Arenas and Counterstrike servers have been plagued with botting and programs that enhance "skill".
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
Is there anybody here that doesn't agree that a violation of the EULA by gold farmers/sellers/buyers is illegal?
So, the question comes down to morals. And morals are situational dependant. Is it morally right to buy/sell gold? Good luck answering that one.
BTW- if you didn't catch it: the question is impossible to answer definitively from a personal standpoint. You are neither right nor are you wrong- it is merely your opinion. From a societal standpoint, the question is situational dependant. It is not possible for all of society to agree to the answer. hence- it is impossible to answer
Forcan is right: we would be better off discussing how to fix it/remove gold farming from the equation rather than discussing morality. The answer may be a character based system rather than item based. Are there any good examples out there right now?
My concern with a character based system is the difficulty of providing gratification at the higher levels. In an equipment based system, you can have an end game area (ie grinding/acquiring the better gear) that doesn't mean the end of the game. In a skill based system you can't. The developer needs to be continuously increasing the content so players don't hit the end game and find that it is indeed the end of the game. And stop paying their subscription fee and move on to other games.
Gear is easy to do: a little tweak here, another plus there and you have a new item. Skills/abilities/talents are much harder to keep progressing in an equitable manner. Imagine having to continuously increase the power level of 8, 10, 12 different character classes in order to 1) make it fair and 2) to make it interesting. Same thing for solely skill based systems (ie no predefined classes): to make each (or a fair number of) character(s) different and interesting would entail a LARGE expenditure of creative power. The shear number of skills required for the devs to provide is staggering.
Is there anybody here that doesn't agree that a violation of the EULA by gold farmers/sellers/buyers is illegal?
So, the question comes down to morals. And morals are situational dependant. Is it morally right to buy/sell gold? Good luck answering that one.
BTW- if you didn't catch it: the question is impossible to answer definitively from a personal standpoint. You are neither right nor are you wrong- it is merely your opinion. From a societal standpoint, the question is situational dependant. It is not possible for all of society to agree to the answer. hence- it is impossible to answer
Forcan is right: we would be better off discussing how to fix it/remove gold farming from the equation rather than discussing morality. The answer may be a character based system rather than item based. Are there any good examples out there right now?
My concern with a character based system is the difficulty of providing gratification at the higher levels. In an equipment based system, you can have an end game area (ie grinding/acquiring the better gear) that doesn't mean the end of the game. In a skill based system you can't. The developer needs to be continuously increasing the content so players don't hit the end game and find that it is indeed the end of the game. And stop paying their subscription fee and move on to other games.
Gear is easy to do: a little tweak here, another plus there and you have a new item. Skills/abilities/talents are much harder to keep progressing in an equitable manner. Imagine having to continuously increase the power level of 8, 10, 12 different character classes in order to 1) make it fair and 2) to make it interesting. Same thing for solely skill based systems (ie no predefined classes): to make each (or a fair number of) character(s) different and interesting would entail a LARGE expenditure of creative power. The shear number of skills required for the devs to provide is staggering.
Thank you SeaKnight, that's what I've trying to get across when I posted that long post. We should focus on ways to eliminating the need for gold farming/selling/buying AND powerleveling (since it was mentioned also).
IF there are ways of which players can create limited contents at end-game, it might add to the character based system. As for continuosly increasing the content, they are already doing that even in level/class based game, so that isn't a problem.
And yeh, it does require the creativity of the developers to sustain a character/skill based game. I would hope that there are more and more developers that'll rise up to the challenge, and then we'll see if the game system can stop the virtual gold sellers/farmers to exploit the system.
Is there anybody here that doesn't agree that a violation of the EULA by gold farmers/sellers/buyers is illegal?
So, the question comes down to morals. And morals are situational dependant. Is it morally right to buy/sell gold? Good luck answering that one.
BTW- if you didn't catch it: the question is impossible to answer definitively from a personal standpoint. You are neither right nor are you wrong- it is merely your opinion. From a societal standpoint, the question is situational dependant. It is not possible for all of society to agree to the answer. hence- it is impossible to answer
Forcan is right: we would be better off discussing how to fix it/remove gold farming from the equation rather than discussing morality. The answer may be a character based system rather than item based. Are there any good examples out there right now?
My concern with a character based system is the difficulty of providing gratification at the higher levels. In an equipment based system, you can have an end game area (ie grinding/acquiring the better gear) that doesn't mean the end of the game. In a skill based system you can't. The developer needs to be continuously increasing the content so players don't hit the end game and find that it is indeed the end of the game. And stop paying their subscription fee and move on to other games.
Gear is easy to do: a little tweak here, another plus there and you have a new item. Skills/abilities/talents are much harder to keep progressing in an equitable manner. Imagine having to continuously increase the power level of 8, 10, 12 different character classes in order to 1) make it fair and 2) to make it interesting. Same thing for solely skill based systems (ie no predefined classes): to make each (or a fair number of) character(s) different and interesting would entail a LARGE expenditure of creative power. The shear number of skills required for the devs to provide is staggering.
I don't think you can label something as immoral just because it violates the EULA.
Anyone who's raided in WoW knows that if a couple of your tanks are out for the night, it forces the entire raid to be called off. The MT of my old guild would give his account information to trusted guildies so that they can still raid when he's not there. Doesn't sound that immoral to me, but account sharing is against the EULA.
I don't think you can label something as immoral just because it violates the EULA.
Anyone who's raided in WoW knows that if a couple of your tanks are out for the night, it forces the entire raid to be called off. The MT of my old guild would give his account information to trusted guildies so that they can still raid when he's not there. Doesn't sound that immoral to me, but account sharing is against the EULA.
Is violating the EULA/ ToS a breach of contract? Yes.
Is breaching a contract illegal. Yes. (in most countries anyway)
Hence: Is violating the EULA/ToS illegal? Yes.
Is committing an illegal act moral/immoral? Like I said in my post: you can't answer the question. There is no right or wrong answer. Even in societies that have black and white morals, you will have shades of grey. Your sharing of accounts may or may not be moral/immoral. It is illegal. Morality/immorality is situational dependant.
And if you go back to read my post- I wasn't saying it was or was not immoral to violate the EULA. I specifically said that you couldn't answer the question as to if it was or not.
You focus on the moral idea of right and wrong, and the strong stand on the law of which clearly makes virtual gold buying/selling to be an illegal action. But why else are you doing to help the situation? (just want to ask since you can tell people they are right/wrong, but can you help them to solve the issues rather than jsut pointing the finger?)
I focus on that idea because the original premise of the thread is whether it is right or wrong. If the thread was "How do we solve gold selling/buying in games", then obviously I would be more focused on that.
I really don't think there IS a solution unless people finally decide to play "by the rules". A lot of people say they don't care whether they are uber in game or not, and for a lot of people that is true, but it obviously is important to SOMEONE, or these problems wouldn't exist. So as long as games exist that give the player an ability to be uber, or better, than someone else, then these problems will exist. If you take away that, then how "fun" would games be? If there is no competition in games, would anybody play it? I'm sure some would, but most of us are competitive by nature, as evidenced by the most popular games, and some people tend to try to get that "competitive edge" by any means possible. Even if it means breaking the rules.
(I'm not saying all gold buyers are trying to be better than everyone else, as I completely recognize the ones that buy a few gold to just "get by". However, even those that buy a few gold are a part of the problem, as it still adds, even if in a very small amount, to the problem. The only solution in the games that currently exist is to NOT buy in-game commodities outside the game. A practice that I do not subscribe to, or condone. Without consumers, the gold sellers would have to close shop.)
In the games I play, I "spread the wealth" by helping newbies, and helping friends that join the game. Now I don't give them tons of gold and items to make them powerful, but I help them with small trinkets and knowledge to help them help themselves. Does that make me better than anyone else? NO. I'm just part of an online community, and try to do my part as most anyone does. MMO's are designed, mostly, to be a community, and unless the community helps each other out, there will be those that feel they are left out. Maybe some "leave themselves out" by playing apart from the community. Well, ok, but why depend on a community OUTSIDE the game that breaks the rules instead of depending on a community within the game?
Some people don't like to "ask for handouts", but they don't have any problems buying commodities illegally and breaking the rules and supporting those that are actively destroying the games we like to play. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Most games, as evident by TONS of posts here and on game forums are stuck in what we like to call "easy mode", but yet people still go out of their way to make it even easier on themselves. While I'm not going to govern, or even try, someone's feelings about what they think their morals are, it saddens me to think what gaming companies can, and probably will, do to alleviate the problems. It is these changes in games, or even the elimination of certain types of games, that affects me as a consumer in wanting to have a variety of choices of types of games and what I can do in that game.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
It can be made a moral argument. Eg. you buy gold, you encourage bots possibly infringing on other's play, you may encourage cheap labour in other countries. Content with that? That is up to you.
No doubt it is against the rules/EULA, and that makes it cheating, there is no way around that.
But it is NOT illegal, there is no law, in any country of wich I am aware stating this is against the LAW.
Also, in games like EVE where you you can trade game cards for in game cash without breaking the rules, or everquest2 exchange server were this is also allowed.
Add to this games life entropia universe, second life and a whole slay of f2p games with cash shops and you probable have a majority of games, as well as players that are doing this.
In games not designed for it though, the RMT market has a negative impact on both the game and its economy, as many have stated here.
Just watch the current VG economy and the money exploit there, RMT sites are selling incredible amounts for almost nothing, meaning that once the exploit is stopped the people who did not buy will be shafted in that economy for ever, ( if that game survives at all that is ).
The people farming the cash will stop at NOTHING to gain gold, after all it is their job, they will exploit in any way they can, they will use of even manufacture software to dupe or cheat, they will if they are able steal your account and sell YOUR gold, ( this just recently happened to my brother in WoW, allthough he actually got his account and most of his items/gold back, meaning that whoever purchased it got shafted as well as those items were probably removed from the game ).
These are NOT your run of the mill shops and allthough the big boys like IGE probably work within the law, the people they buy their gold from are the same people that would cut you down in an alley to get that twenty in your wallet, have no doubt about that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gold buying will exist so long as MMOs insist on requiring someone to engage in unfun activities for hours on end. That's what creates the market demand, and supply will always meet demand.
So. Damn. True. I don't buy gold (bloody hateD those stupid gold spams especially in WoW) but you can kinda understand why people do it.
as for me, if the gold your buying has been obtained by the seller in a normal ingame way then it will not skew the economy at all. but i really think that if there are shops or the developer tries to sell made-up gold then that is very stupid. the skew to the games economy is tremendous if millions start to pop up from nowhere.
btw. i have never bought in game gold cuase i consider it cheating myself
Originally posted by nethaniah
Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.
I'm no economist.. but it's easier to understand why buying gold is armful to a MMO community if you try to compare what happens inside the game with the real world economy.
By selling gold for real money you are satisfying a public demand of those which are willing to pay for a ammount of gold either then wasting 1 month in trying to get the same ammount of gold..
But by selling gold, players will get the sense that there exists people with large ammounts of gold to be spent inside the game.. this makes the items get expensier (AH, direct trade) in sometimes more then 400%..
Who loses in all this are all the other players that simply.. dont buy the gold.. and work for it.
Thus, allowing selling gold to be legal is increasing the hole between poor and rich players.. in which the poor players lose by not being able to afford to buy a item that usualy would cost 400% less..
It's far more satisfying if you work for your gold..
Hell.. I did almost all the quests in Outlands (World of Warcraft), only 3 quests missing.. and I managed to nest around 6.500gold.. enough to buy my 2 flying riding skills (5.800gold) and the 2 mounts (300gold)..
anyone else think this is long and drawn out? somewhere someone said that its bad game design. i agree .... the devs are to worried about makeing games that take forever to do anything in the hopes that people will play longer and hence, said company makes more money this imho is the root of the entire problem.
Gold buying will exist so long as MMOs insist on requiring someone to engage in unfun activities for hours on end. That's what creates the market demand, and supply will always meet demand.
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
Gold selling is harassment of the playerbase that don't enjoy it, especially in WoW, with the constant random messages. I went on for 20 minutes this morning and got five random messages for two different gold selling services.
It isn't even so much a 'right or wrong' question -- it's whether or not you're stupid enough to blow real life money on in-game money.
Gold buying will exist so long as MMOs insist on requiring someone to engage in unfun activities for hours on end. That's what creates the market demand, and supply will always meet demand.
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
The point is, as long as developers put prices on things that make you grind for hours on end to be able to afford them (say, epic flying mounts in WoW), then there will be people who will partake of goldselling, because surely they can't live with a slower mount.
Developers need to find other ways than making people grind out high amounts of cash in order to acquire really good stuff. At that point, goldselling will be useless.
Gold buying will exist so long as MMOs insist on requiring someone to engage in unfun activities for hours on end. That's what creates the market demand, and supply will always meet demand.
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
The point is, as long as developers put prices on things that make you grind for hours on end to be able to afford them (say, epic flying mounts in WoW), then there will be people who will partake of goldselling, because surely they can't live with a slower mount.
Developers need to find other ways than making people grind out high amounts of cash in order to acquire really good stuff. At that point, goldselling will be useless.
No one is "making" anyone do anything. What you are advocating is that developers should Give all players 1M Gold when they create their character...
That won't solve anything, there will still be those that deviate from the 'normal' game play due to the lack of ablity to compete and want more to buy their way to the top. Once there thay still won't be satisfied.
Comments
I used to be really anti gold buying/selling. But I have a much more don't ask don't tell mindset these days.
The only thing that bugs me is farmers/sellers that interupt my game play by either just spamming over and over or trying to claim a zone as theirs and try to train you or do what they can to not let you kill mobs or do what you need to do in that zone.
1) It alters the economy. Some say it destroys the economy. If you don't buy gold, you can't afford to buy in game items from other players.
2) It alters the drop rate of rare/expensive items for the legitimate player. There are farmers that camp spots/areas in order to get that rare drop and sell it for real money. Hence the legitimate player can't get the drop.
3) Legitimate players are run out of areas by gold farmers so that the farmers have exclusive access to the rare drop sites. Chaining monsters to attack legitimate players is a common tactic. PVPing is another.
4) Game companies spend resources (time, money, etc) on preventing/stopping gold farmers. These resources could/should be going into making the game better.
That is why it matters to me. Yes, I am the one getting cheated. That is how it affects me.
Those are the big four that come to mind immediately. There have been any number of professional articles/reports done on gold farming and the negative impact on the industry as a whole and the player as an individual.
You realize that 3/4 of your reasons are based on the fact that the games are gear/item dependent?
So to solve it, why not make it less gear/item dependent and more character development/skill?
As for game companies use resources to preventing gold farmers, why not design a system where gold farming is USELESS? And most gold farming are based on loot and gear/item dependency, make craft > loot AND less gear/item dependent and you would have a better player economy.
Like I said, design problems, but got expand into this virtual gold selling/buying issue... Just something to think about.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Lets say you work in a small company, and the management decided to give everyone a bonus, except for you. Does it effect you? Not really. Is it something that any person would have a problem with if they were put in that situation? Yes.
I know that example doesn't compare to the secondary market situation. The point is that just because something doesn't directly affect you, doesn't make it fair.
Now, to throw that all out the window: Too many people buying gold really screws up a game's economy. Every time someone buys massive amounts of gold, the gold you have loses value.
Lets say you work in a small company, and the management decided to give everyone a bonus, except for you. Does it effect you? Not really. Is it something that any person would have a problem with if they were put in that situation? Yes.
I know that example doesn't compare to the secondary market situation. The point is that just because something doesn't directly affect you, doesn't make it fair.
Now, to throw that all out the window: Too many people buying gold really screws up a game's economy. Every time someone buys massive amounts of gold, the gold you have loses value. Yes, the scenario you used doesn't really compare, but I get what you are saying.
But this is also true: Life isn't fair.
I know people want a fair game, but when life intervenes, it isn't fair no matter what you do. The stronger/richer are most likely be the one that'll win.
Yes, I do agree that gold will screws up game's economy, but WHY? have you thought about why would it screw up? and think about HOW the gold farmers operate, and how they acquire the gold. And try to solve virtual gold trading through that angle rather than just say that it's bad and hope the company will take stronger action. We should try to get to the bottom and see the base issue, not the one that is more visible.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
The base issue is greed. Some people will do whatever they want in order to get (more) money. No game system will prevent players from trying to exploit it for their personal gain.
Your idea of a character based game rather than equipment based: We see it now with farmers selling characters. Powerleveling is a large part of any gold sellers website. If a game is solely based on character progression, you will see different issues arise: powerleveling, cheating, etc. BF2142 uses a purely character based system and you still see people in their cheating in order to advance. I am not sure if there are websites out there offering powerleveling for BF2142, but I am sure there would be if the player base was 8 million with an advancement scale similar to what would be required in a solely character advancement based system.
Your ideas have merit- but if all games are based solely around one form of progression, the industry may get a little ... stale.
Very nice post. Thank you. I would love to answer as it is fundamental to get to the bottom of why things are in place that are in place. Why does Blizzard, SoE, Sigil (God rest their soul), Turbine, and many others make these licenses and copyrights? Why do copyright laws even exist?
First of all, the basics. Copyright laws exist to protect authors, coders, artists, and etc from people that steal, yes, it is stealing in the true sense of the word, their ideas, and workings to make a profit of their own. If I take a copier, and copy pages of a magazine into a magazine called Bahamut's Magazine, and sold it as my own, it is WRONG. It is ILLEGAL. It is stealing someone else's work and selling it to people as my own work, and making a profit off someone else's ideas and work. A lot of people say, "Well, don't I spend TIME making all this in-game gold, and shouldn't I profit from spending my time to make the gold to sell?" NO. I spent time copying these pages, and making the binders and putting my magazine, that I stole, into circulation. It is EXACTLY the same thing. The pixels that are on your character sheet that says you have X gold is written and OWNED by the company. You spend time building that number to sell a number to someone else is exactly the same as copying pages out of a book or magazine and selling it as your own.
Now on to the rest:
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
The base issue is greed. Some people will do whatever they want in order to get (more) money. No game system will prevent players from trying to exploit it for their personal gain.
Your idea of a character based game rather than equipment based: We see it now with farmers selling characters. Powerleveling is a large part of any gold sellers website. If a game is solely based on character progression, you will see different issues arise: powerleveling, cheating, etc. BF2142 uses a purely character based system and you still see people in their cheating in order to advance. I am not sure if there are websites out there offering powerleveling for BF2142, but I am sure there would be if the player base was 8 million with an advancement scale similar to what would be required in a solely character advancement based system.
Your ideas have merit- but if all games are based solely around one form of progression, the industry may get a little ... stale.
Well, a well-planned game system can and will prevent player/gold farmers to exploit for personal gain.
You are missing the idea that Powerleveling is an issue is because of the competitiveness of PvP and level gap between players. Also there is the problem of redundant quests that gets boring after a while. And people do not like to focus on that.
BTW, isn't BF2142 a FPS style game? and in FPS is more player skill, not character skills. (I have no idea since I didn't play BF 2142).
Anyway, back on topic. The present MMO genre ARE focusing on only one form of progression - level & class. I rather play a class-less and non-level based MMO (which is the Skill based in essence). There may be other choices and forms of progession, but the more popular one and the one that are being used in almost all game in development are level & class. So what's the difference when trying to use a different form to replace it?
And the thing is that, powerleveling CAN be limited and solved by having interactive quest/mission system and no class/level, it's up to the game developers to get creative in designing their game system.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
You focus on the moral idea of right and wrong, and the strong stand on the law of which clearly makes virtual gold buying/selling to be an illegal action. But why else are you doing to help the situation? (just want to ask since you can tell people they are right/wrong, but can you help them to solve the issues rather than jsut pointing the finger?)
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Anyways, I kind of feel like we're all just talking in circles. The secondary market will always exploit cheap labor and make millions selling gold to people. All we can hope is that game providers don't decide that they want in on that money.
All you are doing here is presenting another way gold sellers/buyers are affecting me and my choices in games. If I enjoy level/class based games, as well as or in spite of skill based games, then I am being limited to playing said games because of people not being able to follow the rules set in those type of games. Regardless of how interesting getting said gold/items is in a game, there will always be people that will go outside the game to get what they want and break the rules.
Limiting my choices in a game to enjoy is just another effect they have on me. Anyways, I truly believe that even a skill based system will still have a way to be exploited by someone truly wanting to "get an edge" in any game they play. Whether it is buying characters, items, programs/bots to enhance my skill, or any number of ways to gain that edge without putting forth any real effort within the game rules. This is computer gaming after all, and nothing has been bulletproof yet. Even Quake Arenas and Counterstrike servers have been plagued with botting and programs that enhance "skill".
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
IF there are ways of which players can create limited contents at end-game, it might add to the character based system. As for continuosly increasing the content, they are already doing that even in level/class based game, so that isn't a problem.
And yeh, it does require the creativity of the developers to sustain a character/skill based game. I would hope that there are more and more developers that'll rise up to the challenge, and then we'll see if the game system can stop the virtual gold sellers/farmers to exploit the system.
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
Anyone who's raided in WoW knows that if a couple of your tanks are out for the night, it forces the entire raid to be called off. The MT of my old guild would give his account information to trusted guildies so that they can still raid when he's not there. Doesn't sound that immoral to me, but account sharing is against the EULA.
Is violating the EULA/ ToS a breach of contract? Yes.
Is breaching a contract illegal. Yes. (in most countries anyway)
Hence: Is violating the EULA/ToS illegal? Yes.
Is committing an illegal act moral/immoral? Like I said in my post: you can't answer the question. There is no right or wrong answer. Even in societies that have black and white morals, you will have shades of grey. Your sharing of accounts may or may not be moral/immoral. It is illegal. Morality/immorality is situational dependant.
And if you go back to read my post- I wasn't saying it was or was not immoral to violate the EULA. I specifically said that you couldn't answer the question as to if it was or not.
I focus on that idea because the original premise of the thread is whether it is right or wrong. If the thread was "How do we solve gold selling/buying in games", then obviously I would be more focused on that.
I really don't think there IS a solution unless people finally decide to play "by the rules". A lot of people say they don't care whether they are uber in game or not, and for a lot of people that is true, but it obviously is important to SOMEONE, or these problems wouldn't exist. So as long as games exist that give the player an ability to be uber, or better, than someone else, then these problems will exist. If you take away that, then how "fun" would games be? If there is no competition in games, would anybody play it? I'm sure some would, but most of us are competitive by nature, as evidenced by the most popular games, and some people tend to try to get that "competitive edge" by any means possible. Even if it means breaking the rules.
(I'm not saying all gold buyers are trying to be better than everyone else, as I completely recognize the ones that buy a few gold to just "get by". However, even those that buy a few gold are a part of the problem, as it still adds, even if in a very small amount, to the problem. The only solution in the games that currently exist is to NOT buy in-game commodities outside the game. A practice that I do not subscribe to, or condone. Without consumers, the gold sellers would have to close shop.)
In the games I play, I "spread the wealth" by helping newbies, and helping friends that join the game. Now I don't give them tons of gold and items to make them powerful, but I help them with small trinkets and knowledge to help them help themselves. Does that make me better than anyone else? NO. I'm just part of an online community, and try to do my part as most anyone does. MMO's are designed, mostly, to be a community, and unless the community helps each other out, there will be those that feel they are left out. Maybe some "leave themselves out" by playing apart from the community. Well, ok, but why depend on a community OUTSIDE the game that breaks the rules instead of depending on a community within the game?
Some people don't like to "ask for handouts", but they don't have any problems buying commodities illegally and breaking the rules and supporting those that are actively destroying the games we like to play. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Most games, as evident by TONS of posts here and on game forums are stuck in what we like to call "easy mode", but yet people still go out of their way to make it even easier on themselves. While I'm not going to govern, or even try, someone's feelings about what they think their morals are, it saddens me to think what gaming companies can, and probably will, do to alleviate the problems. It is these changes in games, or even the elimination of certain types of games, that affects me as a consumer in wanting to have a variety of choices of types of games and what I can do in that game.
"Granted thinking for yourself could be considered a timesink of shorter or longer duration depending on how smart..or how dumb you are."
It can be made a moral argument. Eg. you buy gold, you encourage bots possibly infringing on other's play, you may encourage cheap labour in other countries. Content with that? That is up to you.
No doubt it is against the rules/EULA, and that makes it cheating, there is no way around that.
But it is NOT illegal, there is no law, in any country of wich I am aware stating this is against the LAW.
Also, in games like EVE where you you can trade game cards for in game cash without breaking the rules, or everquest2 exchange server were this is also allowed.
Add to this games life entropia universe, second life and a whole slay of f2p games with cash shops and you probable have a majority of games, as well as players that are doing this.
In games not designed for it though, the RMT market has a negative impact on both the game and its economy, as many have stated here.
Just watch the current VG economy and the money exploit there, RMT sites are selling incredible amounts for almost nothing, meaning that once the exploit is stopped the people who did not buy will be shafted in that economy for ever, ( if that game survives at all that is ).
The people farming the cash will stop at NOTHING to gain gold, after all it is their job, they will exploit in any way they can, they will use of even manufacture software to dupe or cheat, they will if they are able steal your account and sell YOUR gold, ( this just recently happened to my brother in WoW, allthough he actually got his account and most of his items/gold back, meaning that whoever purchased it got shafted as well as those items were probably removed from the game ).
These are NOT your run of the mill shops and allthough the big boys like IGE probably work within the law, the people they buy their gold from are the same people that would cut you down in an alley to get that twenty in your wallet, have no doubt about that.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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as for me, if the gold your buying has been obtained by the seller in a normal ingame way then it will not skew the economy at all. but i really think that if there are shops or the developer tries to sell made-up gold then that is very stupid. the skew to the games economy is tremendous if millions start to pop up from nowhere.
btw. i have never bought in game gold cuase i consider it cheating myself
By selling gold for real money you are satisfying a public demand of those which are willing to pay for a ammount of gold either then wasting 1 month in trying to get the same ammount of gold..
But by selling gold, players will get the sense that there exists people with large ammounts of gold to be spent inside the game.. this makes the items get expensier (AH, direct trade) in sometimes more then 400%..
Who loses in all this are all the other players that simply.. dont buy the gold.. and work for it.
Thus, allowing selling gold to be legal is increasing the hole between poor and rich players.. in which the poor players lose by not being able to afford to buy a item that usualy would cost 400% less..
It's far more satisfying if you work for your gold..
Hell.. I did almost all the quests in Outlands (World of Warcraft), only 3 quests missing.. and I managed to nest around 6.500gold.. enough to buy my 2 flying riding skills (5.800gold) and the 2 mounts (300gold)..
So, just work for it and have fun!
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
Gold selling is harassment of the playerbase that don't enjoy it, especially in WoW, with the constant random messages. I went on for 20 minutes this morning and got five random messages for two different gold selling services.
It isn't even so much a 'right or wrong' question -- it's whether or not you're stupid enough to blow real life money on in-game money.
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
The point is, as long as developers put prices on things that make you grind for hours on end to be able to afford them (say, epic flying mounts in WoW), then there will be people who will partake of goldselling, because surely they can't live with a slower mount.
Developers need to find other ways than making people grind out high amounts of cash in order to acquire really good stuff. At that point, goldselling will be useless.
LMAO....whose forcing you to "engage in unfun activities for hours on end"?
And how does that even remotely have anything to do with buying gold?
The point is, as long as developers put prices on things that make you grind for hours on end to be able to afford them (say, epic flying mounts in WoW), then there will be people who will partake of goldselling, because surely they can't live with a slower mount.
Developers need to find other ways than making people grind out high amounts of cash in order to acquire really good stuff. At that point, goldselling will be useless.
No one is "making" anyone do anything. What you are advocating is that developers should Give all players 1M Gold when they create their character...
That won't solve anything, there will still be those that deviate from the 'normal' game play due to the lack of ablity to compete and want more to buy their way to the top. Once there thay still won't be satisfied.