And just so I'm "on topic" or somesuch. The developers don't deserve your bile, and ire, per se. Developer, in this case, meaning the poor codemonkeys, many of whom just found themselves in the unemployment line. Butler, McQuaid and the rest of Sigils management are the ones you want to be burning at the stake for this little fiasco, which actually has kept us all entertained for the past 4 months, one way or another.
I guess there's more than a few people here that have never made it out of their first dishwashing job?
Games get to peoples in a way most commodities or goodies doesn't.
With human contact come great rewards, but also come great ire when the result isn't appropriate.
95% of the staff at Sigil is cool in my book, after all, they bear with Brad, Steve and SoE! They can't be that bad! Except the new leading guy of course, since he is SoE devil now! (what is his name again?)
Let's me rephrase Brad, out of topic and about another subject: You can't expect the greatest reward in the easiest activity, they naturally come where the risk is greater...Risk vs Reward. You deal with the public here, the reward is obviously greater then been in a work chain, but it also come with a risk of ire and angerness. They feed us stuff, they get it back!
I am pretty sure that in old EQ, seeing me been the first AA maxed toon in PoP serverwide (or close to, no scientific research here) and me been proud of it and shining my ego, it make these devs happy...and the praises that come and all. They also can draw ire, especially when they ruin my fun with raiding lame-o-ness.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Originally posted by terrorantula and you've all heard of chinese whispers
it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
1. If you're going to start off telling us NOT to insult, then you should probably NOT start with a racial slur.
2. When people are taking your money then you have every right to insult poor quality, especially when they spent YEARS telling you how great it was going to be.
3. Just because YOU don't know the facts, don't assume no one else here knows them.
4. It's also human nature to change a story when you come out looking like an asshat.
It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
Ok, let's stick to the facts. People have accused Brad M of not being there to face them when they were fired. Brad M HAS CONFIRMED this and made up some pathetic excuse that he wasn't there because it would have made him cry. Gee, what did he think those people GETTING FIRED were feeling? He should have been there to face those people he let down, he should have been there to face the consequences of his mistakes and given what support to the people who followed and trusted him. Instead he offers lame excuses that it would have hurt his feelings to take the responsbility for his actions. That's all anyone needs to know about his character. He deserves every insult flung his way. People like you are constantly let people like him get away with because rather than seeing the obvious, you're too busy preaching about being 'fair' . Fair would have been if Brad M had lost his job as well. Originally posted by Parsifal57
I agree, the person who was in charge of this debacle, and who then openly admitted he didn't have the Guts to actually be there when people were getting fired because of his mistakes/Ego is getting everything he deserves.
And then there are others who can see the obvious. And they need to constantly remind people like the OP or people like Brad M will just do it again (I can't believe there's talk he'll get another project )
It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
I agree. People really should differ between rightful critique over a product and personal flame wars. Lets all be fair here.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
I've never heard of CHINESE WHISPERS !? What the hell does that mean, lol?
Hey its America, when someone makes a mistake to the sound of my $50 - they also make a choice to reap the consequences.
I dont understand this feeling at all. If someone chooses to spend $50 on something...that was your decision. Yes, things are marketed poorly in a lot of cases, this being one. But as a responsible buyer one should research their purchases prior to making them if the cost is significant to the individual.
Granted the marketing was horrible for VG, if spending $50 was a big deal to someone, I would think anyone that had experience with MMO's would wait a little while and read actual reviews from players and critics before spending the cash.
The $50 to me wasnt a big deal...I bought it when it was just released, didnt like it..but oh well...thats what I get for buying right when its put on the shelves. If I was going out to buy a brand new car, that cost is obviously significant to me...I would never buy a car that just arrived on the lot and had zero reviews (outside of advertising) of it.
I dont know...I have just always thought buyer beware on anything...yes, this is corporate America and everyone wants to sell their wares, good or bad, they are going to make them at least appear as good as possible before anyone really knows firsthand.
$50 to me is like a night out at the local bar...you can spend the cash and have a fantastic night, or it could be bad and you are out $50 and some free time...but, you tried to have fun and it either works out for the good or doesnt.
I don't care if it's $50 or $0.05 - the price is not the issue. They lied - it's about ethics.
Oh someone selling a product to you did exxagerate? Whohhoo... cry me a river! Really, welcome to capitalism.
Man, some ppl really have to get a grip! Its not like your family was shot or your dog was burned by Sigil (to rightfully quote a dev). Sure a good game went not as it was thought, so what? Sure, its a reason to complain, but some people just seem to make a hobby of developer bashing. Dragging things like a persons religion or relationships to light is just pathetic. People should really see the relations. Its not that VG is totally broken. You can play it, right? Its boring, buggy all true, but people are losing all relations to reality in forums, hiding beind the anonymity of a forum and starting personal wars. Sorry, but whatever happend to you or anyone, starting a personal vendetta for a few dollars is just ridiculous. There is ENOUGH to say about the game, we dont NEED personal attacks.
Why dont you put your righteous anger into something of REAL importance, like global warming, war on terror or something the like?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
The problem is that they aren't doing their job at near maximum efficiency.
They are doing their job poorly, which is why there are so many angry people.
If they were actually doing their job and not screwing up at least 25% of the time we wouldn't be having this conversation...
The programming code for vanguard is very poor... any idiot can see that from the games performance or lack there of. When Americans spend 50 bucks they expect something of quality and are easily angered when their expectations are not met.
Those of you that are happy and still enjoying V:SoH are easily entertained and still retain a high level of humor... which is good and not meant to insult to any of your intelligence. The bugs, glitches and crazy things that happened in Horizons made the game quite entertaining for those who were easily entertained and kept a sense of humor. They gave the game some degree of character. V:SoH has too much character atm...
Those out there who are angry should be incredibly jealous of those who are enjoying it... which is probably where all the hate is originating.
I don't think Brad and the group need to be made into idols, big names, ect... They are just humans.... Power to the players.
One thing is... the game will most likely improve over time regardless of who owns it or hosts it.
Originally posted by brokenneedle Originally posted by terrorantula It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
I've never heard of CHINESE WHISPERS !? What the hell does that mean, lol?
It's the telephone game. Someone says something to the person next to them, who says a slightly modified version to the person next to them, who says a slightly modified version of the modified version to the person next to them, and so on.
Honestly, it's like you guys are trying to find ways to justify insulting developers. All they ever did was try to make a good game.
Meanwhile, McQuaid gets to go to work on Monday and collect a nice, fat paycheck while the 50 people that were fired are trying to find jobs and get to spend who knows how many sleepless nights wondering how the bills are going to get paid.
As far as the employees whose financial affairs are now in question because of his lack of talent, ethics, etc., if one of them became "disgruntled" and handled their displeasure with Brad via a sawed-off shotgun in Brad's front room on the 11:00 'o clock news, i wouldn't shed a tear.
Here's what I've learned with video games and its kept me pretty happy...
And this is very important: DON'T FOLLOW THE HYPE- Its always going to be less than is promised, so don't pay attention to it and you won't be disappointed.
Maybe its because I didn't really follow the VG development, but right now I'm having a blast with the game, despite a few irritating bugs here and there. Furthermore the game has more potential than any other MMO released in recent memory. All I think it needs to flourish is some bugfixes, maybe a few performance tweaks, and a free trial once they're fixed to show people things are going smoothly again. I have high hopes for the game now, even though before purchase I knew very little of the game.
This game is pretty much non existent from my view. Their lack of creating anything positive out of any part of it's development speaks volumes for potential costumers. Any developer who turns their back on the community doesn't even deserve an e307 pass.
they deserve to have their pants pulled around their ankles and have my foot between their cheeks cause that's where vanguard came from.....their butts
It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
I think it's natural that people feel cheated and lied to and although inappropriate, name calling tends to be a knee jerk reaction. The best part of all this is that we as consumers now can know all we need to know about a game. In the old days I just went and bought Defender or Yar's Revenge and hoped it was good on my Atari.
Now the investment for a consumer is greater. $50.00 for a game and then $15.00 a month after that for a MMORPG. I had no clue who created PAC Man but I knew who made EQI and as technology increased you can now:
Download a trial
Find Developer's personal blogs
Read Online Reviews of games
Go to forums and hear opinion
Get into Beta
Find MMORPG specific blogs
Find pictures and bios for game companies
Brad and Co are the sacrificial lambs because they are the biggest fiasco in MMORPG history (Some SWG fans may say 2nd biggest but they are still owned by the same companies) and they will get it worse than any before them have gotten it because the internet is bigger and better now. Brad was already a rockstar of the MMORPG scene. He had a celebrity status and what do we in America do with our celebrities? We praise them and award them when they do good but then secretly hope that we can see them on the cover of the Enquirer when they fall. Now we have tons of ways to find out info and Brad made it pretty dang easy to see the inner workings of the trainwreck.
No one of the general populace knew Rock Hudson had Aids untill he died. Everyone was shocked. People aren't shocked anymore. We can find any little dirty secret out. Britney shaved her head, Paris goes to Jail blah blah blah.
The bigger these video game guys get, the more like Hollywood all of this will become. Congratz Brad you are Brtiney of MMORPGs right now. Your front page news for messing up instead of going platinuum or winning an Oscar. That's the nature of things. People want to see you suceed as an underdog and want to see you fall hard as a star.
while i can agree that there are more options when researching a game to play, learning things like management was missing in action through much of the last 6 months is not something many would even think to look up.
to be fair, the game may end up just fine. it's been bought up, it isn't being canceled and so from a consumer point of view as long as it doesn't get NGE'd (SWG people will get that lol) then all will still be right with the world.
However, every time a company eats itself due to mismanagement, then yes, there is cause for anger. Mainly because of the 50% or so people who weren't rehired by SOE after the fall out and because the game itself was buggy and woefully incomplete compared to what it could have been under better management.
name-calling may not be warranted, but you have to admit, dragging everyone out to the parking lot for mass firings because management was so incredibly full of it does call for some serious anger...and empathy from us, the players.
anger is fueled in part because those who were responsible are not be the same people who filed for unemployment benefits the last couple of days, Brad included.
i bought vanguard, i even put it on station access...i was angered that it didn't live up to the pre-release hype. not enough to go flying off the handle but enough to be disappointed. that is my right.
but i have to admit, i'm alot more disappointed as the reasons why have become public.
Hey its America, when someone makes a mistake to the sound of my $50 - they also make a choice to reap the consequences.
I dont understand this feeling at all. If someone chooses to spend $50 on something...that was your decision. Yes, things are marketed poorly in a lot of cases, this being one. But as a responsible buyer one should research their purchases prior to making them if the cost is significant to the individual.
Granted the marketing was horrible for VG, if spending $50 was a big deal to someone, I would think anyone that had experience with MMO's would wait a little while and read actual reviews from players and critics before spending the cash.
The $50 to me wasnt a big deal...I bought it when it was just released, didnt like it..but oh well...thats what I get for buying right when its put on the shelves. If I was going out to buy a brand new car, that cost is obviously significant to me...I would never buy a car that just arrived on the lot and had zero reviews (outside of advertising) of it.
I dont know...I have just always thought buyer beware on anything...yes, this is corporate America and everyone wants to sell their wares, good or bad, they are going to make them at least appear as good as possible before anyone really knows firsthand.
$50 to me is like a night out at the local bar...you can spend the cash and have a fantastic night, or it could be bad and you are out $50 and some free time...but, you tried to have fun and it either works out for the good or doesnt.
I don't care if it's $50 or $0.05 - the price is not the issue. They lied - it's about ethics.
Umm, if you read who he was responding to, you will notice that it is about the 50 bucks. BTW, to the manzene, no one forced you to by the game. When you don't know what you are getting, by default it is a gamble no matter what you buy. I don't understand why some people piss and moan because of their own impatiences.
To Netspook. OMFG they lied!!!! Get over it. Learn to de:virginize your ears and release it is not a see no perfect world out there. Someday when you grow up you will realize that in selling anything it will be hyped. You ujst have to de:virginize your brain and think for yourself rather than letting advertisers think for you.
OK everyone, he is all yours. I am sure you all can convince him you had the BEST of all products and he will give you all his money. Hurry, before he starts thinking for himself and relizes the world isn't a perfect world fill of angelic angels of truth.
I couldn't care less what people say but it is thier right to speak thier minds and noone is going to stop that. Just remember when you leave your moms basement and start running your mouth to people within arms reach of you that there are consequences. The real world after all is FFAPVP with full loot much of the time.
Yep it is a FFAPVP. However even in games the Town guards are still higher leve and you will still lose in the long run. However, there will be no respawning for you. Either you will be in ghost form forever or you get to see what it is to see through bars and have Bubba show you how painful your ass can be when you pick up soap.
I agree, the person who was in charge of this debacle, and who then openly admitted he didn't have the Guts to actually be there when people were getting fired because of his mistakes/Ego is getting everything he deserves.
He doesn't want to be there to see the culmination of the process of crushing his dream? God, what a loser. You're right, he deserves to have tons of people who haven't even met him in person hate him on a personal level because he screwed up.
Honestly, it's like you guys are trying to find ways to justify insulting developers. All they ever did was try to make a good game.
This is the most intellegent post I have read on the VG forum in a VERY LONG LONG time!!!
Brad and Co are the sacrificial lambs because they are the biggest fiasco in MMORPG history (Some SWG fans may say 2nd biggest but they are still owned by the same companies) and they will get it worse than any before them have gotten it because the internet is bigger and better now. Brad was already a rockstar of the MMORPG scene. He had a celebrity status and what do we in America do with our celebrities? We praise them and award them when they do good but then secretly hope that we can see them on the cover of the Enquirer when they fall. Now we have tons of ways to find out info and Brad made it pretty dang easy to see the inner workings of the trainwreck.
Biggest fiasco? Woah... try Dark and Light. It was a stinking pile of buggy excrement at release. They conned people into preordering by promising all sorts of in-game stuff. They did end up offering refunds, but quite a few people never actually got their refund or had to go through numerous hoops with their bank or click'n'buy (or whatever that incompetent billing company they used was called) in order to get it. Then almost, what... a year or so later... they start billing people again. I ended up getting a bill for a game I never subscribed to and had pretty much completely forgotten about - WTF?!? Can you imagine the lynch mob you would get if SOE suddenly decides to bill the people who quit SWG as a result of the NGE? LOL
Farlan makes Sigil look like a saint in comparison.
But...
Unlike Sigil, they don't have clearly visible celebrities as you put it (and I think that's a good comparison). It's hard to keep up the hate towards an unknown company hidden away on some remote island. Brad on the other hand, came to the various forums and promised the world. He became famous because he said what a devoted group of people wanted to hear. He failed to deliver. Now he is paying for it.
*shrug*
I personally can't get all that worked up about this and I must admit that I get a good laugh out of reading the hate filled posts. I'm sorta just waiting for someone to compare Brad with some satanic demon who likes to sodomise little kids before eating them alive. Yes sadly - DnL aftershock was rated a 2 McQuade* units. Shadowlame on other hand pulled a whopping 3.
* 1 McQuade unit is equal to total and utter ineptitude in design, execution and support of an MMOG
I still have to say that Vanguard takes the cake. Not only because of McQuaid's semi-celebrity status in the MMORPG world but also because of the budget and big name companies involved. Microsoft blew 30 million on this project, Brad "I created EQ1" McQuaid broke down and hid in his house for eight months and Smed and SOE pulled them out of the fire watched them limp along and then just said OK go home, we are taking over because you guys are incompent. Add in the Barnum and Bailey like antics of McQuaid on FOH, and the whole soap opera of people messing around in the work place and this one tops anything I've ever seen. Even if Dark and Light or Shadowbane had been good games they weren't in the same league and would've had a smaller customer base than Eve or COH. I will say I was pretty disappointed in Shadowbane though and I stayed away from Dark and Light completely. Who knows what Farlan could've done if he had Brad's Vision spin going for him.
It's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
I think it's natural that people feel cheated and lied to and although inappropriate, name calling tends to be a knee jerk reaction. The best part of all this is that we as consumers now can know all we need to know about a game. In the old days I just went and bought Defender or Yar's Revenge and hoped it was good on my Atari.
Now the investment for a consumer is greater. $50.00 for a game and then $15.00 a month after that for a MMORPG. I had no clue who created PAC Man but I knew who made EQI and as technology increased you can now:
Download a trial
Find Developer's personal blogs
Read Online Reviews of games
Go to forums and hear opinion
Get into Beta
Find MMORPG specific blogs
Find pictures and bios for game companies
Brad and Co are the sacrificial lambs because they are the biggest fiasco in MMORPG history (Some SWG fans may say 2nd biggest but they are still owned by the same companies) and they will get it worse than any before them have gotten it because the internet is bigger and better now. Brad was already a rockstar of the MMORPG scene. He had a celebrity status and what do we in America do with our celebrities? We praise them and award them when they do good but then secretly hope that we can see them on the cover of the Enquirer when they fall. Now we have tons of ways to find out info and Brad made it pretty dang easy to see the inner workings of the trainwreck.
No one of the general populace knew Rock Hudson had Aids untill he died. Everyone was shocked. People aren't shocked anymore. We can find any little dirty secret out. Britney shaved her head, Paris goes to Jail blah blah blah.
The bigger these video game guys get, the more like Hollywood all of this will become. Congratz Brad you are Brtiney of MMORPGs right now. Your front page news for messing up instead of going platinuum or winning an Oscar. That's the nature of things. People want to see you suceed as an underdog and want to see you fall hard as a star.
while i can agree that there are more options when researching a game to play, learning things like management was missing in action through much of the last 6 months is not something many would even think to look up.
to be fair, the game may end up just fine. it's been bought up, it isn't being canceled and so from a consumer point of view as long as it doesn't get NGE'd (SWG people will get that lol) then all will still be right with the world.
However, every time a company eats itself due to mismanagement, then yes, there is cause for anger. Mainly because of the 50% or so people who weren't rehired by SOE after the fall out and because the game itself was buggy and woefully incomplete compared to what it could have been under better management.
name-calling may not be warranted, but you have to admit, dragging everyone out to the parking lot for mass firings because management was so incredibly full of it does call for some serious anger...and empathy from us, the players.
anger is fueled in part because those who were responsible are not be the same people who filed for unemployment benefits the last couple of days, Brad included.
i bought vanguard, i even put it on station access...i was angered that it didn't live up to the pre-release hype. not enough to go flying off the handle but enough to be disappointed. that is my right.
but i have to admit, i'm alot more disappointed as the reasons why have become public.
Yeah, your preaching to the choir. I was just responding to the OP's post that we may not have a right to name call or drag people's personal lifes through the mud but many of us feel we got the shaft and we didn't get it near as bad as those employees who followed Brad's messiah trip and quit jobs with other more stable game companies.
Comments
Clearly it was the Liberals at fault here.
And just so I'm "on topic" or somesuch. The developers don't deserve your bile, and ire, per se. Developer, in this case, meaning the poor codemonkeys, many of whom just found themselves in the unemployment line. Butler, McQuaid and the rest of Sigils management are the ones you want to be burning at the stake for this little fiasco, which actually has kept us all entertained for the past 4 months, one way or another.
I guess there's more than a few people here that have never made it out of their first dishwashing job?
Games get to peoples in a way most commodities or goodies doesn't.
With human contact come great rewards, but also come great ire when the result isn't appropriate.
95% of the staff at Sigil is cool in my book, after all, they bear with Brad, Steve and SoE! They can't be that bad! Except the new leading guy of course, since he is SoE devil now! (what is his name again?)
Let's me rephrase Brad, out of topic and about another subject: You can't expect the greatest reward in the easiest activity, they naturally come where the risk is greater...Risk vs Reward. You deal with the public here, the reward is obviously greater then been in a work chain, but it also come with a risk of ire and angerness. They feed us stuff, they get it back!
I am pretty sure that in old EQ, seeing me been the first AA maxed toon in PoP serverwide (or close to, no scientific research here) and me been proud of it and shining my ego, it make these devs happy...and the praises that come and all. They also can draw ire, especially when they ruin my fun with raiding lame-o-ness.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
1. If you're going to start off telling us NOT to insult, then you should probably NOT start with a racial slur.
2. When people are taking your money then you have every right to insult poor quality, especially when they spent YEARS telling you how great it was going to be.
3. Just because YOU don't know the facts, don't assume no one else here knows them.
4. It's also human nature to change a story when you come out looking like an asshat.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
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Originally posted by terrorantulaIt's one thing to be mad at a company or person in a high position but you shouldn't make personal insults towards them. We don't know the true facts that go on and you've all heard of chinese whispers, it's human nature to change a story to make it sound worse or more impressive when you tell someone else. Its obvious here that noone knows the true facts and this is the case of lots of people telling slightly different stories.
I just don't think it's right insulting them when all they're doing is their job, people make mistakes and i do not hold a grudge and specially when i don't know the facts.
Ok, let's stick to the facts. People have accused Brad M of not being there to face them when they were fired. Brad M HAS CONFIRMED this and made up some pathetic excuse that he wasn't there because it would have made him cry.
Gee, what did he think those people GETTING FIRED were feeling?
He should have been there to face those people he let down, he should have been there to face the consequences of his mistakes and given what support to the people who followed and trusted him.
Instead he offers lame excuses that it would have hurt his feelings to take the responsbility for his actions.
That's all anyone needs to know about his character. He deserves every insult flung his way.
People like you are constantly let people like him get away with because rather than seeing the obvious, you're too busy preaching about being 'fair' .
Fair would have been if Brad M had lost his job as well.
Originally posted by Parsifal57
I agree, the person who was in charge of this debacle, and who then openly admitted he didn't have the Guts to actually be there when people were getting fired because of his mistakes/Ego is getting everything he deserves.
And then there are others who can see the obvious. And they need to constantly remind people like the OP or people like Brad M will just do it again (I can't believe there's talk he'll get another project
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Granted the marketing was horrible for VG, if spending $50 was a big deal to someone, I would think anyone that had experience with MMO's would wait a little while and read actual reviews from players and critics before spending the cash.
The $50 to me wasnt a big deal...I bought it when it was just released, didnt like it..but oh well...thats what I get for buying right when its put on the shelves. If I was going out to buy a brand new car, that cost is obviously significant to me...I would never buy a car that just arrived on the lot and had zero reviews (outside of advertising) of it.
I dont know...I have just always thought buyer beware on anything...yes, this is corporate America and everyone wants to sell their wares, good or bad, they are going to make them at least appear as good as possible before anyone really knows firsthand.
$50 to me is like a night out at the local bar...you can spend the cash and have a fantastic night, or it could be bad and you are out $50 and some free time...but, you tried to have fun and it either works out for the good or doesnt.
I don't care if it's $50 or $0.05 - the price is not the issue. They lied - it's about ethics.
Oh someone selling a product to you did exxagerate? Whohhoo... cry me a river! Really, welcome to capitalism.
Man, some ppl really have to get a grip! Its not like your family was shot or your dog was burned by Sigil (to rightfully quote a dev). Sure a good game went not as it was thought, so what? Sure, its a reason to complain, but some people just seem to make a hobby of developer bashing. Dragging things like a persons religion or relationships to light is just pathetic. People should really see the relations. Its not that VG is totally broken. You can play it, right? Its boring, buggy all true, but people are losing all relations to reality in forums, hiding beind the anonymity of a forum and starting personal wars. Sorry, but whatever happend to you or anyone, starting a personal vendetta for a few dollars is just ridiculous. There is ENOUGH to say about the game, we dont NEED personal attacks.
Why dont you put your righteous anger into something of REAL importance, like global warming, war on terror or something the like?
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
They are doing their job poorly, which is why there are so many angry people.
If they were actually doing their job and not screwing up at least 25% of the time we wouldn't be having this conversation...
The programming code for vanguard is very poor... any idiot can see that from the games performance or lack there of. When Americans spend 50 bucks they expect something of quality and are easily angered when their expectations are not met.
Those of you that are happy and still enjoying V:SoH are easily entertained and still retain a high level of humor... which is good and not meant to insult to any of your intelligence. The bugs, glitches and crazy things that happened in Horizons made the game quite entertaining for those who were easily entertained and kept a sense of humor. They gave the game some degree of character. V:SoH has too much character atm...
Those out there who are angry should be incredibly jealous of those who are enjoying it... which is probably where all the hate is originating.
I don't think Brad and the group need to be made into idols, big names, ect... They are just humans.... Power to the players.
One thing is... the game will most likely improve over time regardless of who owns it or hosts it.
It's the telephone game. Someone says something to the person next to them, who says a slightly modified version to the person next to them, who says a slightly modified version of the modified version to the person next to them, and so on.
Probably is. Someone should probably get McCarthy on the horn. The pinkos are making a comeback!!
But at least Brad didn't cry.
That's the important thing.
Brad deserves anything thrown at him.
As far as the employees whose financial affairs are now in question because of his lack of talent, ethics, etc., if one of them became "disgruntled" and handled their displeasure with Brad via a sawed-off shotgun in Brad's front room on the 11:00 'o clock news, i wouldn't shed a tear.
But I wish him well.
...Pika
Here's what I've learned with video games and its kept me pretty happy...
And this is very important: DON'T FOLLOW THE HYPE- Its always going to be less than is promised, so don't pay attention to it and you won't be disappointed.
Maybe its because I didn't really follow the VG development, but right now I'm having a blast with the game, despite a few irritating bugs here and there. Furthermore the game has more potential than any other MMO released in recent memory. All I think it needs to flourish is some bugfixes, maybe a few performance tweaks, and a free trial once they're fixed to show people things are going smoothly again. I have high hopes for the game now, even though before purchase I knew very little of the game.
Sony Online Entertainment Steals Customers Money
I think it's natural that people feel cheated and lied to and although inappropriate, name calling tends to be a knee jerk reaction. The best part of all this is that we as consumers now can know all we need to know about a game. In the old days I just went and bought Defender or Yar's Revenge and hoped it was good on my Atari.
Now the investment for a consumer is greater. $50.00 for a game and then $15.00 a month after that for a MMORPG. I had no clue who created PAC Man but I knew who made EQI and as technology increased you can now:
Brad and Co are the sacrificial lambs because they are the biggest fiasco in MMORPG history (Some SWG fans may say 2nd biggest but they are still owned by the same companies) and they will get it worse than any before them have gotten it because the internet is bigger and better now. Brad was already a rockstar of the MMORPG scene. He had a celebrity status and what do we in America do with our celebrities? We praise them and award them when they do good but then secretly hope that we can see them on the cover of the Enquirer when they fall. Now we have tons of ways to find out info and Brad made it pretty dang easy to see the inner workings of the trainwreck.
No one of the general populace knew Rock Hudson had Aids untill he died. Everyone was shocked. People aren't shocked anymore. We can find any little dirty secret out. Britney shaved her head, Paris goes to Jail blah blah blah.
The bigger these video game guys get, the more like Hollywood all of this will become. Congratz Brad you are Brtiney of MMORPGs right now. Your front page news for messing up instead of going platinuum or winning an Oscar. That's the nature of things. People want to see you suceed as an underdog and want to see you fall hard as a star.
while i can agree that there are more options when researching a game to play, learning things like management was missing in action through much of the last 6 months is not something many would even think to look up.
to be fair, the game may end up just fine. it's been bought up, it isn't being canceled and so from a consumer point of view as long as it doesn't get NGE'd (SWG people will get that lol) then all will still be right with the world.
However, every time a company eats itself due to mismanagement, then yes, there is cause for anger. Mainly because of the 50% or so people who weren't rehired by SOE after the fall out and because the game itself was buggy and woefully incomplete compared to what it could have been under better management.
name-calling may not be warranted, but you have to admit, dragging everyone out to the parking lot for mass firings because management was so incredibly full of it does call for some serious anger...and empathy from us, the players.
anger is fueled in part because those who were responsible are not be the same people who filed for unemployment benefits the last couple of days, Brad included.
i bought vanguard, i even put it on station access...i was angered that it didn't live up to the pre-release hype. not enough to go flying off the handle but enough to be disappointed. that is my right.
but i have to admit, i'm alot more disappointed as the reasons why have become public.
Granted the marketing was horrible for VG, if spending $50 was a big deal to someone, I would think anyone that had experience with MMO's would wait a little while and read actual reviews from players and critics before spending the cash.
The $50 to me wasnt a big deal...I bought it when it was just released, didnt like it..but oh well...thats what I get for buying right when its put on the shelves. If I was going out to buy a brand new car, that cost is obviously significant to me...I would never buy a car that just arrived on the lot and had zero reviews (outside of advertising) of it.
I dont know...I have just always thought buyer beware on anything...yes, this is corporate America and everyone wants to sell their wares, good or bad, they are going to make them at least appear as good as possible before anyone really knows firsthand.
$50 to me is like a night out at the local bar...you can spend the cash and have a fantastic night, or it could be bad and you are out $50 and some free time...but, you tried to have fun and it either works out for the good or doesnt.
I don't care if it's $50 or $0.05 - the price is not the issue. They lied - it's about ethics.
Umm, if you read who he was responding to, you will notice that it is about the 50 bucks. BTW, to the manzene, no one forced you to by the game. When you don't know what you are getting, by default it is a gamble no matter what you buy. I don't understand why some people piss and moan because of their own impatiences.
To Netspook. OMFG they lied!!!! Get over it. Learn to de:virginize your ears and release it is not a see no perfect world out there. Someday when you grow up you will realize that in selling anything it will be hyped. You ujst have to de:virginize your brain and think for yourself rather than letting advertisers think for you.
OK everyone, he is all yours. I am sure you all can convince him you had the BEST of all products and he will give you all his money. Hurry, before he starts thinking for himself and relizes the world isn't a perfect world fill of angelic angels of truth.
Honestly, it's like you guys are trying to find ways to justify insulting developers. All they ever did was try to make a good game.
This is the most intellegent post I have read on the VG forum in a VERY LONG LONG time!!!
Biggest fiasco? Woah... try Dark and Light. It was a stinking pile of buggy excrement at release. They conned people into preordering by promising all sorts of in-game stuff. They did end up offering refunds, but quite a few people never actually got their refund or had to go through numerous hoops with their bank or click'n'buy (or whatever that incompetent billing company they used was called) in order to get it. Then almost, what... a year or so later... they start billing people again. I ended up getting a bill for a game I never subscribed to and had pretty much completely forgotten about - WTF?!? Can you imagine the lynch mob you would get if SOE suddenly decides to bill the people who quit SWG as a result of the NGE? LOL
Farlan makes Sigil look like a saint in comparison.
But...
Unlike Sigil, they don't have clearly visible celebrities as you put it (and I think that's a good comparison). It's hard to keep up the hate towards an unknown company hidden away on some remote island. Brad on the other hand, came to the various forums and promised the world. He became famous because he said what a devoted group of people wanted to hear. He failed to deliver. Now he is paying for it.
*shrug*
I personally can't get all that worked up about this and I must admit that I get a good laugh out of reading the hate filled posts. I'm sorta just waiting for someone to compare Brad with some satanic demon who likes to sodomise little kids before eating them alive.
* 1 McQuade unit is equal to total and utter ineptitude in design, execution and support of an MMOG
I still have to say that Vanguard takes the cake. Not only because of McQuaid's semi-celebrity status in the MMORPG world but also because of the budget and big name companies involved. Microsoft blew 30 million on this project, Brad "I created EQ1" McQuaid broke down and hid in his house for eight months and Smed and SOE pulled them out of the fire watched them limp along and then just said OK go home, we are taking over because you guys are incompent. Add in the Barnum and Bailey like antics of McQuaid on FOH, and the whole soap opera of people messing around in the work place and this one tops anything I've ever seen. Even if Dark and Light or Shadowbane had been good games they weren't in the same league and would've had a smaller customer base than Eve or COH. I will say I was pretty disappointed in Shadowbane though and I stayed away from Dark and Light completely. Who knows what Farlan could've done if he had Brad's Vision spin going for him.
I think it's natural that people feel cheated and lied to and although inappropriate, name calling tends to be a knee jerk reaction. The best part of all this is that we as consumers now can know all we need to know about a game. In the old days I just went and bought Defender or Yar's Revenge and hoped it was good on my Atari.
Now the investment for a consumer is greater. $50.00 for a game and then $15.00 a month after that for a MMORPG. I had no clue who created PAC Man but I knew who made EQI and as technology increased you can now:
Brad and Co are the sacrificial lambs because they are the biggest fiasco in MMORPG history (Some SWG fans may say 2nd biggest but they are still owned by the same companies) and they will get it worse than any before them have gotten it because the internet is bigger and better now. Brad was already a rockstar of the MMORPG scene. He had a celebrity status and what do we in America do with our celebrities? We praise them and award them when they do good but then secretly hope that we can see them on the cover of the Enquirer when they fall. Now we have tons of ways to find out info and Brad made it pretty dang easy to see the inner workings of the trainwreck.
No one of the general populace knew Rock Hudson had Aids untill he died. Everyone was shocked. People aren't shocked anymore. We can find any little dirty secret out. Britney shaved her head, Paris goes to Jail blah blah blah.
The bigger these video game guys get, the more like Hollywood all of this will become. Congratz Brad you are Brtiney of MMORPGs right now. Your front page news for messing up instead of going platinuum or winning an Oscar. That's the nature of things. People want to see you suceed as an underdog and want to see you fall hard as a star.
while i can agree that there are more options when researching a game to play, learning things like management was missing in action through much of the last 6 months is not something many would even think to look up.
to be fair, the game may end up just fine. it's been bought up, it isn't being canceled and so from a consumer point of view as long as it doesn't get NGE'd (SWG people will get that lol) then all will still be right with the world.
However, every time a company eats itself due to mismanagement, then yes, there is cause for anger. Mainly because of the 50% or so people who weren't rehired by SOE after the fall out and because the game itself was buggy and woefully incomplete compared to what it could have been under better management.
name-calling may not be warranted, but you have to admit, dragging everyone out to the parking lot for mass firings because management was so incredibly full of it does call for some serious anger...and empathy from us, the players.
anger is fueled in part because those who were responsible are not be the same people who filed for unemployment benefits the last couple of days, Brad included.
i bought vanguard, i even put it on station access...i was angered that it didn't live up to the pre-release hype. not enough to go flying off the handle but enough to be disappointed. that is my right.
but i have to admit, i'm alot more disappointed as the reasons why have become public.
Yeah, your preaching to the choir. I was just responding to the OP's post that we may not have a right to name call or drag people's personal lifes through the mud but many of us feel we got the shaft and we didn't get it near as bad as those employees who followed Brad's messiah trip and quit jobs with other more stable game companies.