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Why are they all the same?
Deioth
Member UncommonPosts: 64
It's growing more and more aggrivating as I scour around for a damn MMORPG that actually tries to be different and bring more than just another grind of some sort to the market. I can't find any. One way or another, the only point to all MMOs I see out right now is generally grinding for loot, be it through PVM or PVP. 99% of all crafting is a grind even. Where's some damn originality? Where's some substance and depth? I'm sick and tired of MMOs that sound like they might really offer something special but they wind up disapointing because all they've done is change around a few core mechanics ever so slightly from Everquest or DAoC and pass it off as innovation. I played WoW expecting to be a part of the future of the warcraft universe, not "Everquest 2.0: PVP Edition". I'm so angry with Blizzard for doing absolutely nothing at all with that game except give a new coat of paint to everything else that's already here. I'm only getting more angry as I find that there's still nothing out there.
It's not just that all MMOs generally have the same way to play for combat and leveling up, or that every MMO has a lackluster and worthless/boring crafting system, or that PVP never amounts to anything more than a prettier avatar or PVM bonuses. It's that none try. It's that none actually do anything with their story. It's that none actually apply the "Role Playing" part of MMORPG in any way shape or form. It's that there is, in the end, no purpose for you to play beyond having a glorified, graphical chatroom.
Maybe I'm just expecting too much. I've played Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds on and off since it went retail back in 1998 because it actually involves the player and their characters and not just leads to another indefinate grind. But, after all this time and numerous other things I won't get into, that game has lost its fun. So, I'm trying to find another MMO like it, be it 3D or 2D, I don't care, that actually has some real immersion and interaction between players and the story and plot of the game. I love leveling, I love crafting, I love PVP, but when I'm left to feel like just another max level running around as opposed to feeling like I'm playing as a real person I get bored too fast. Grinding and all that, to me, should be the filler for the foundation of a plot driven and player evolved roleplaying game. Why is that so god damn rare? Why is my best bet a game that just plain shows its age WAY too much to have fun in anymore?
It's been suggested to me that I try Saga of Ryzom, and I plan to once I've a more capable computer (mine likes to crash in 3D games and a 2+ minute game load time on a crash-prone computer isn't fun). I'm also looking forward to seeing what Age of Conan and Tabula Rasa and others are able to bring to the market, again with a more capable computer (plan to upgrade shortly, yay graduation gift). But, should these games fail me, what's out there? SW:G sounded incredible until SOE beat it with the Dee Dee Dee Stick. What's left? Seriously? Does LotRO actually do this or is that a stretch (wasn't too impressed with the stress test, felt like WoW with a new coat of paint)? Am I just out of luck? Is there no MMORPG out there that brings a real and interactive, player-driven story with an enjoyable grind? Or am I just one of those stuck in the minority STILL waiting for a game that isn't just killing monsters/PCs?
It's not just that all MMOs generally have the same way to play for combat and leveling up, or that every MMO has a lackluster and worthless/boring crafting system, or that PVP never amounts to anything more than a prettier avatar or PVM bonuses. It's that none try. It's that none actually do anything with their story. It's that none actually apply the "Role Playing" part of MMORPG in any way shape or form. It's that there is, in the end, no purpose for you to play beyond having a glorified, graphical chatroom.
Maybe I'm just expecting too much. I've played Nexus: The Kingdom of the Winds on and off since it went retail back in 1998 because it actually involves the player and their characters and not just leads to another indefinate grind. But, after all this time and numerous other things I won't get into, that game has lost its fun. So, I'm trying to find another MMO like it, be it 3D or 2D, I don't care, that actually has some real immersion and interaction between players and the story and plot of the game. I love leveling, I love crafting, I love PVP, but when I'm left to feel like just another max level running around as opposed to feeling like I'm playing as a real person I get bored too fast. Grinding and all that, to me, should be the filler for the foundation of a plot driven and player evolved roleplaying game. Why is that so god damn rare? Why is my best bet a game that just plain shows its age WAY too much to have fun in anymore?
It's been suggested to me that I try Saga of Ryzom, and I plan to once I've a more capable computer (mine likes to crash in 3D games and a 2+ minute game load time on a crash-prone computer isn't fun). I'm also looking forward to seeing what Age of Conan and Tabula Rasa and others are able to bring to the market, again with a more capable computer (plan to upgrade shortly, yay graduation gift). But, should these games fail me, what's out there? SW:G sounded incredible until SOE beat it with the Dee Dee Dee Stick. What's left? Seriously? Does LotRO actually do this or is that a stretch (wasn't too impressed with the stress test, felt like WoW with a new coat of paint)? Am I just out of luck? Is there no MMORPG out there that brings a real and interactive, player-driven story with an enjoyable grind? Or am I just one of those stuck in the minority STILL waiting for a game that isn't just killing monsters/PCs?
Comments
Look up hellgate. They are doing everything they can to both innovate the MMO genre and eliminate (or at least reduce) the grind. The game is setup so no item will ever drop twice from the same thing. Heck, or at all unless your lucky. To top it off, you'll never see the same place twice. Everything is random.
Will it be good? Only time will tell. Diablo was this way and we know how it turned out.
You should read up on it some more. If you do not have internet or maybe a lack of fund preventing you from a subscription based game, they provide a single player campaign for you. That is all it is. Age of Conan does something similiar. It is a shame companies do not do this more often for people.
If you do pay, you get all the elements commonly found in any other MMORPG as well as online only group content. (which by the way, scales to your average group level and how many are in your group.)
I think it's WoW clones for years to come. (Yes, WoW is an EQ clone, but you get the idea).
SWG pre-NGE was a good start but it got the axe. Shadowbane was a step in the right direction, but they weren't able to pull off a polished game.
Some are hailing AoC as the replacement to sliced bread, but I wouldn't get that excited just yet. WAR will be (hopefully) DAoC on steroids, so it should be fun, but nothing new.
Nothing really new or innovative seems to be in the pipeline. Pick up a good RTS or FPS, or maybe a single player RPG, or get ready to play WoW clones.
MMORPG Maker
I think it's WoW clones for years to come. (Yes, WoW is an EQ clone, but you get the idea).
SWG pre-NGE was a good start but it got the axe. Shadowbane was a step in the right direction, but they weren't able to pull off a polished game.
Some are hailing AoC as the replacement to sliced bread, but I wouldn't get that excited just yet. WAR will be (hopefully) DAoC on steroids, so it should be fun, but nothing new.
Nothing really new or innovative seems to be in the pipeline. Pick up a good RTS or FPS, or maybe a single player RPG, or get ready to play WoW clones.
MMORPG Maker
Your right, it wont be on a server with 3k other players. They've already stated this. It will be on a server with an estimated 5k players. If I am not mistaken, 5k players per server (shard) is quite the industry standard.
Another game that is trying to be as innovative as they can, or so it seems, is The Chronicals of Spellborn. They have made such strides as to eliminate, or reduce, the typical group structure used in most other MMOs today. An example is that there will be no healing dedicated classes. They also move away from the typical "target and button mash" combat that is used in MMOs. For the most part though, they have kept most of the ideas used in the game's development under wraps. Hopefully they bring to market a fresh game as well.
There are studios out there attempting to be innvovative, but the industry as a whole has always followed the "wave riding" strategy. A game is a hit for being innovative and everyone else jumps on the band wagon behind it.
One last one to look at is Hero's Journey. The company making it was popular with their MUD games back in the day, so they are by no means new on the playing field. This studio has taken a big step to create their own engine for use in this game. It has been in developement, as a result, for a much longer period of time. One of their missions is to be innovative. Once they release their MMORPG on this new gaming engine, they plan to sell the engine to others studios for use in future MMOs.
Good luck in your search, I hope for all our sakes that someone is going to be successful soon in bringing out a quality innovative MMORPG that is fresh for the masses.
I don't believe EQ was about the grind when it first came out. People didn't even know about grinding or many other things at the time. There wasn't much in the way of cheat sites that listed all the quests and had maps for every dungeon. The game was a large part about exploration.
WoW was more about cutting down the grind for casual players, but it lacks exploration. Generally you are told where to go and what to do through quests. I like the concept somewhat, but I do miss exploration. I don't miss the grind though.
Making something more interesting is hard to do when people are so set in what they expect out of a MMO. Many people on this board talk about things as if they are set in stone. No one really talks about new concepts they just look at past games and say well this wasn't used much, but it's the way to do things in the future. It breaks the mold. It's been done before though so it isn't new either.
It gets harder and harder to satisfy people after a while. There isn't much you can do about that.
Eve is a sci-fi based pvp game that doesn't even have an avatar running around and is pvp oriented. Plus it is really deep. The players totally dictate the market. Almost everything sold is created by players. Add to this that players dictate the events in the game and fight for control of entire star systems.
Myst is mmo that exclusively deals with puzzle solving. No that the OP would like either one, buy there are MMO's that are completely different. The players themselves create puzzles for others to solve.
This made me laugh, because I had never thought of it this way but its true. Its ok, but flight controls are like orbit this, or warp here, and not live. Would have been much better with a flight sim type piloting or something more realtime.
I found Eve to be disappointing, but I only played the trial, so I didnt get to see much.
Now THAT is a quality post my friends.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but the statement "I have yet to see a fun MMO" is kind of ridiculous.
Dont blame the genre, blame the devs. Storylines CAN be implemented, and lore CAN determine how an MMO world works, its just that not very many developers implement this. But hey, who listens to the public opinion anyways? It seems like what us gamers want is right there in front of the devs, they just wont take the bait.
No NPCs NO AUCTION HOUSES only TOOLS (eg: personnal vendors that sell our stuff or mechanics that alow us to make crafting tools and then over time perfeciton these crafting tools)
We make the houses and the cities
give us a world mechanics and tools let us do the rest.
the devs can send apocaliptic events to slow us down or genesis events to help us,
I've been really burned out on all the current trends in MMOs.
I recently started up DDO and I'm actually enjoying the change in combat.
It sucks when I'm getting stomped into the ground because I forget that you have to manually block and dodge, but that fact makes the combat that much more fun.
The game has it's downfalls, but I do enjoy the in-game voice chat. It's kinda like xbox live for your PC.
The biggest downfall is that it's not a game that you can drink beers and play because your reaction times suffer.
I was gonna log in and play, but I'm all ready 6 deep and I figured I'd just sip and smoke a cigar and loiter on some forums.
B. I don't blame the genre - I do blame the devs.
What we need to do is put White Wolf, Neal Stephenson, BioWare in a room. Give them unlimited budget and say - make a MMO.
I really like this idea, but I want to take it a step further.
I would like to see a world with no currency. Have gold, sure, and other precious metals and such, and have them drop off enemies, or something of that nature. But have gold just be a metal that you can use, and that has weight, just like copper and silver.
Then, have everything that is the best be player made: player-made weapons, player-made armor, player-grown food, player-raised mounts, etc. Anything you can think of, but have it all be made by the players. With the elimination of hard currency and making the best things made by the players, you will have a powerful economy. If you added eventual permanent item decay and player run towns (think what Darkfall might go for if they ever exist, or something along the lines of Lineage) and you will have an economy that will keep itself running and a PvP system that would fuel the quest to always have the best items.
I really like the idea of simply having a world and tools to control what happens. I think that is how you would get a MMO that really engages the players. The games we have today are always so regimented, and while they sometimes have different features, and sometimes intersting things for players to do, things are too guided.
The only thing we need would be a way to either make level irrelevant (or have no levels--maybe a pure skill based system like EVE or Ryzom) or give a great many ways to get experience that would be viable across the board. One way to do this would be to have something like Elderscrolls games in place. The more you do something, the better you get at it. That way you could do whatever you want, and gradually get better at those things. I wouldn't want the same level system, because while it works in single player, I am not certain it would in a MMO.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
http://www.atriarch.com/ - Atriarch, which I found back in, like, 2000 or something, and still has from what I know next to zero budget to really work on it.
http://www.shadowpool.com/ - Trials of Ascension which has closed development almost entirely until an interested publisher gives them a budget.
Notice how both are really no where near something really playable. Seriously, I signed up for the Atriarch beta YEARS ago, back before Anarchy Online even had its Notum Wars booster pack and maybe even when I played it. It's a shame the few who try to be innovative get so little attention from those with the money to make them happen. Then again, I can't help but wonder, if we've got people as helplessly addicted to such dribble as World of Warcraft, what is going to happen when players are given a real sandbox MMO? It's a weird worry, so I guess we'll find out when it finally happens. Personally, I'd be quite happy with something in the middle ground. You'd have heavy player involvement in the game world but the GMs would be the ones to go to for all the sand.
Hell, the story would be so easy. Something bad happened on earth, loaded up this massive ship, earth went boom, problems on board, and the ship crashes on some desolate planet: begin game.
I really like this idea, but I want to take it a step further.
I would like to see a world with no currency. Have gold, sure, and other precious metals and such, and have them drop off enemies, or something of that nature. But have gold just be a metal that you can use, and that has weight, just like copper and silver.
Then, have everything that is the best be player made: player-made weapons, player-made armor, player-grown food, player-raised mounts, etc. Anything you can think of, but have it all be made by the players. With the elimination of hard currency and making the best things made by the players, you will have a powerful economy. If you added eventual permanent item decay and player run towns (think what Darkfall might go for if they ever exist, or something along the lines of Lineage) and you will have an economy that will keep itself running and a PvP system that would fuel the quest to always have the best items.
I really like the idea of simply having a world and tools to control what happens. I think that is how you would get a MMO that really engages the players. The games we have today are always so regimented, and while they sometimes have different features, and sometimes intersting things for players to do, things are too guided.
The only thing we need would be a way to either make level irrelevant (or have no levels--maybe a pure skill based system like EVE or Ryzom) or give a great many ways to get experience that would be viable across the board. One way to do this would be to have something like Elderscrolls games in place. The more you do something, the better you get at it. That way you could do whatever you want, and gradually get better at those things. I wouldn't want the same level system, because while it works in single player, I am not certain it would in a MMO.
I don't think this would actually work very well at all. Several games have tried something like this, Horizons comes to mind right at first.
1. The problem with having everything player made is, the adventurers get bored. What is the reward for beating some big ugly creature. What reason do they have for even trying, loot is an easy option. No loot of some kind means no adventureres.
2. While I like the idea where players CAN control everything, there should be other options available. a. There needs to be NPC's to provide some sort of direction. There are many times when people log in where they just want to relax, being told what to do can accomplish this. b. NPC's can provide immediate back story and a sense of purpose to what you are supposed to be doing, what is the overall objective.
Games like Ryzom are good because they allow you to control a great deal, they suck because there is really nothing to do. A blend of the two are great. Give us the controls and ability to create the character that we want, to create the city and empire that we want. But let us play and enjoy and relax at the same time. There should be some things pre-made in the game allready that give you a sense of what the heck you should be doing.
Venge Sunsoar