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Permadeath as a business model
Jimmy_Scythe
Member CommonPosts: 3,586
So I was talking to a friend of mine the other day about Guild Wars and I was telling him how much cooler the game would be with a "hardcore" option like in Diablo 2. For those of you that don't know, hardcore mode in Diablo 2 was where you kept your character on the server and when he / she died... that was it. Being a veteran Rogue-like player, this kind of thing is my bag baby!
So anyway, the conversation shifted to the old P2P vs. Item shop thing and then it hit me. Rather than sell items in F2P games, why not sell characters? The game would be free, but you'd have to pay something like $5 for a character and once they were gone that would be it. Think of it as an arcade game. You pay for X number of lives and when their gone... well, you had your fun now didn't you? The difference here is that you get on life per. It could last for 5 years or 5 minutes depending on how well you actually play.
I'm also not seeing to many downsides to this idea. Here are a few advantages:
at any rate.... It's just an idea....
So anyway, the conversation shifted to the old P2P vs. Item shop thing and then it hit me. Rather than sell items in F2P games, why not sell characters? The game would be free, but you'd have to pay something like $5 for a character and once they were gone that would be it. Think of it as an arcade game. You pay for X number of lives and when their gone... well, you had your fun now didn't you? The difference here is that you get on life per. It could last for 5 years or 5 minutes depending on how well you actually play.
I'm also not seeing to many downsides to this idea. Here are a few advantages:
- Gold selling won't be as big of a deal because who wants to pay cash for something you're just one bad decision away from losing forever?
- Grind will be no more. Since the player is paying per character rather than per month or for perks to make the game less boring, developers will be inclined to make the game more challenging. Imagine a game that holds your attention every minute that you're actually playing it!
- When you threaten to kill the l337 speaking asshat that's making everyone miserable, it'll actually hold some weight. Yeah, he can just buy a new character but most people don't have access to an unlimited amount of $5 bills.
- I'm thinking that you could actually sell $5 cards (kinda like phone cards) to sell characters with. You could actually have the games web site on the cards to keep from all the packaging overhead. This also keeps you from needing to give out your Credit Card information online. I've never really been comfortable with using that information online. Cash is always better IMHO.
- $5 is totally within even the tightest budget and that can last as long as you're able to play.
- No more level cap! Most people aren't going to make it past a certain point anyway.
at any rate.... It's just an idea....
Comments
Given the state of the Internet, I will not play a perma-death game. It doesn't interest me at all.
Arcade games are not RPGs.
Arcade = getting the highest score
RPG = developing your character
The whole thing people are missing with perma-death is that it's just not made for RPGs. RPGs are about developping your character. If everysingle time you die you loose that development then what's the fun?
It's like making an arcade where every time you die your score is set to 0. So you have to beat the game or get no pionts at all. Ow right, RPGs have no end. So you can only get 0 points.
Or how about making a shooter with a ranking system ( tracks kills/deaths ) that is cleared everytime you die? Nope, that would be stupid.
So why make a RPG where every time you die your character development is put back at 0? It's 100% against the purpose of the game.
It's like making a bike with weels that can't turn. An automatic light that only goes on when it's already light.
The only way I can see perma-death working is in some sort of reincarnation system. If you die your character is lost. But your soul, wich bears all your gained abilities is saved. You then create a new character wich inherits all those abilities. So part of your character is lost, part of him is saved.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
If you don't, you get a mediocre response at best, and none at all at worst.
General Rule #1 - People don't want to lose and, condludingly don't want to die. No matter what happens to them.
General Rule #2 - People are external attributers and success motivated in spare time activities. Means if they die, its the fault of the game and if they lose, they tend to quit, not play again.
Special Rule #1 - An online-game is a service provider. One of dozens. The game is SERVING the people, not otherwise, if you stop serving people will choose to invest their hard-earned money elsewhere.
Special Rule #2 - People are NOT masochists and not "archetypical fighters". Actually, demanding harsh penalties from a computer game is pretty much on the edge of a psychological disorder ("yes, punish me, I need this to have fun").
So, simply put - your attitude is not normal. If you want a successful product, explore what the "normal guy" wants
Meridion
/stabbe
I can't see a problem from a RPG point of view, PnP usually have permadeath. But as a MMORPG business model it has some flaws apart from the lag issue. Having a high level character makes the game much more addictive than if you have to start over and over.
PnP wasn't so much about character development. It was far more about having fantasy adventures with your friends.
Single Player RPGs aren't so much about character development. Far more about discovering the storyline and beating the bad guy in the end.
MMORPGs however are. MMORPGs are all about creating an altar ego in a virtual world. And if your character keeps dying all the time then there's not much of an altar ego to build.
In PnP your friends will still remember who you are and what your character did. Once the session is over you can talk to them about how cool the heroic end of your character was. Your characters still live on as a memory.
In single-player games there are save files and checkpoints. If you die you don't have to start over. You start over from a certain point. You still made some progress.
In MMOs however you will be mostly lost if your character gets deleted. MMOs are a lot solo and with relative strangers. They won't remember you at all if you die. Friends you have in MMOs you don't know IRL 90% of the time. To them you are your character. If your character gets deleted you lose everything you have achieved in that game.
As with the arcade example. If dying meant losing all your points and highscores would you play? I'm 100% sure most of us wouldn't. The risk was too great. You'd play once while you still didn't have a highscore but as soon as you got one you'd stop.
Perma-death will only result in LOTS of angry people because they lost everything. And the rest of the players would be showcase characters. They don't really play anymore, they just stand around town being cool with their high level characters but they're too afraid to leave town because they might loose everything.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
I do how ever agreed in consept level that many todays character deads are way too easy on players. Like there is no dead at all.
I would suggest real punishment to players from characters dead. Like when You die, You can't play with that character for while at all. If You die too often, You time unable to play just increase and it's only decreasing by staying alive inside the game longer enough.
And even this gonna get many players very angry to it. I know because I have seen people whining about that dead slows for 5 min to they charcater development and they have quit playing the game because of it. Talk about dumm.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
Although PnP has permadeath, it takes a pretty poor storyteller to kill off the central characters.
I had some fun playing Harcore mode on Diablo 2. (It did have a level cap). It added replayability to the game. Had the game have been pay to play, I never would have done it. After I'd played throuh the game on the basic setting and seen and done everything, I would have quit paying and found a new game where I got a better return on my investment.
My blog:
Perma-Death is an awesome idea.
I have waited for nary-a-whisper to be mentioned about it now since the late 70's/early 80's.......then of course, since the online craze of AD&D 'based" ....(lol..if you wanna call them that...based.../snicker. not even close...imo).... morpgs that have only begun to grace our screens as of only a few years ago....a decade or so(very short time)
but, short or long...its finally being looked into.
I think this would be extremely simple to implement in every single game out there without a worry of Linkdeads and bugs and whatnot being the cause of , basically and mainly, loss of 'items'. Items - a curse which all the morpgs have gotten toooo hung up on. they really did a bad thing by tying soooo much of the players interest, to the items and 'things' rather than the toon itself.
Players should be an "Entity' or "Spirit" with gained lvls/skills....the 'toon or class or physical character itself' is just a shell you posses for as long as you can survive. A sword is a Sword.. a Bow is a bow...a Staff is a Staff...and it should ALWAYS be that way. we dont need +1000STR cap with a huge panel of stats to reflect our 'time' or <ahem> skill. weaps and items are disposable junk. and should stay that way.
If you die.....thats it. that toon is gone. Items "SHOULD" mean nothing....but of course they do in todays (<ahem> morpgs). But your spirit is not gone, and has gained all the skills and abilities from ALL the classes one has played from past - to present. For any AD&D (advanced) buffs out there....you know all too well, the character can still thrive in other worlds/planes/existances and still "make' it "back".
But I am not even entertaining that idea....b/c in AD&D you only play that ONE character. If the GM/DM wants to be strict he may not allow you to try to continue on with that character. Other GM's will allow it and widen/broaden the scope of the game( if the GM has the resources)...and allow the character to continue on after death. Maybe finding him/herself with the Plane of Shadows or Negative material plane as a Wight or Ghost with a new quest to reobtain either peace in death or reinstatement from incorp to corpreal form.
In morpg's...the player is stuck with the narrow thinking of the programmers, b/c of such...nothing like this can be done...why?...b/c all the games are hung up on being item-based....if you loose your toon,...well..you loose e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g you have done for years and years.....
doesnt sound like a good business model on the company's end...and doesnt sound likea good game on the customers part.
That is only because the games that are supposedly "BASED" on AD&D...are not at ALL! not one game (online morpg) has come out that even resembles AD&D......nope..not even AD&D online <---THAT ONE is the FARTHEST from AD&D i can possibly think of and IT bears the name of the P&P games that started it all!(not taking anything away from tolk novels) mheh. credit is due where credit is due;)
ANyway...I dont think it is a problem of the PermaDeath...its the problem of the game companies NOT knowing at all, what an RPG is and have Know friggen clue how to pick up the AD&D books and see it in black and white and explained in easy to read print at a 3rd grade reading lvl....AD&D was designed for ages 8 and up....and with all their degrees and technology...not one has contributed anything to the gaming world that has anything remotely related to AD&D.
if they had, the gaming world would be MUCH different and FUN, not a bunchof templates of EQ and DAOC/WoW.
Permadeath would be the norm...and it would be FUN! and Adventursome....to say the least!
PS- To date: I havent seen one RPG yet......since FInal fantasy1...oh wait...im wrong....allow me to rephrase..."I have NOT seen ONE RPG since before "HUnt for the WUmpus" on the Monroe8800(1974-ish) and/or "Adventure" from Atari....but even those are not RPG's.
you dont 'play' a role....you 'assume' a role, in a storyline already laid out for you. you cant change a thing....meheh, some 'role' huh:)
anyway......dev's and gaming management and personel, need to sit back , read a few small 3rd grade books and maybe...just maybe ......'get' it.
Inclosing:
Permadeath....would be cake to implement.
and fun.
Maybe it will give back the 'adventurous' and 'dangerous' element rpg's are suppose to have, which they have never possessed before.....evar!
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^^^^it should not have an affect on permadeath and/or gameplay. ever play AD&D?
see...here is a perfect example of how people that play RPG's have never been exposed to the real basis of RPG"s.
darn companies have perverted everything!
lol
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BS, because it WAS/and is a hobby for strange freaks in their basement... While WoW for example broke free and invaded the PC of "cool kids", of the normal guy. I can totally picture my small cousin, head of the schools football team, tall, dark-haired, handsome young man... He plays World of Warcraft. He doesn't even know what roleplaying is ... and THATS tomorrows business model, if you wanna make money with an MMO, make it rewarding and fun in small blocks...
Meridion
EDIT: Oh, and finally, who the f*** gives a damn about sheets and pencils. I like they games the way they are, I don't need nerdy 35-year olds to tell me whats good and bad.
^another prime example:)
35?!?!
pull----eezeeee
/holds hand up
mhehe
By the way: if its any consolation: I think Pirates of the Burning seas has hit it right on the head with some of their ideas ingame about to come out....the idea of low lvl content helping out high lvl content is Awesome....THATS what Im talking about.
do/would you(poster above) think this is NOT fun!????
In Pirates of the Burning Seas, you have players that may want to hit/attack a harbor...ok..so they do: its your Harbor they are attacking!...so..all the high levels in your land come to defend....the game has it set-up where you, as a low level noob, are able to help.
now normally..its these 'nowadays' games you defend as being quick and fun..what about pirates....its quick and fun too...but instead of killing the same rats and bugs and bats over and over and over for small 'blocks' of fun...wouldnt you rather be able to join that huge battle/harbor defense?!?!
of course you would.
Pirates has it setup as such...
check it out on the list.....looks awesome. finally one game heading in the right direction in todays 'business' model..imo..
kudos to them.
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You perma deather fanbois really need to let it go.
There is not enough of you to support a perma death mmo for a company to make a success of it. Every other day there is a new thread about perma death, the horse is dead already. Its not gonna happen. Go play an mmo thats already out and detele your character everytime you die.
^ very narrow thinking...games will be a looong narrow tunnel for people if that is all that is wanted. not fun. we should all just buy EQ1 and or return to DAOC
horrid.
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It actually astounds me that some people can't seem to understand that concept; and keep posting these type of threads.
I find it odd that all those players that post about needing a "hardcore" pvp game aren't backing this idea 100%.
After all, what would be more "hardcore" than permadeath?
C'mon all you "hardcore" folks, here's your chance!
^ thats only because you are playing and worried of 'items' and 'levels' associated with massive hour of time dumped on top of massive hours of time.
I dont think that is what Permadeath would be.
Items should NOT be the underlying game dynamic.
it should be YOUR character.
not his things....if a game were to use the concept of Permadeath.,..items would not be a concern or 99% of the game.
your toon would be;)
(ps - we havent even delved into the AD&D uses of reincarnation - which could be another option forplayers in a true RPG based game)
soooo..many options and things can be done its utterly astounding
and for all you naysayers talking trash about AD&D or this-and-that(gurps,WW,WH or whatnot).....just remember
YOUR PLAYING THE EQUIVALENT of Geeky PNP GAMES ...just a few YEARS LATER! lol
c'mon...havent you seen the SouthPark epi!????....'mommmmmmmm!...bathroooom!"
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hehe SWGLover
/agree.
and all spells should be Insta-gib/insta-Died !
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Death in games today mean next to nothing and to many hardcore gamers and roleplayers, it's a big turn down.
Death should be the most tragic event that can occur to a character. It's SUPPOSED to be a pain, it's not suposed to be insignificant.
Defeat should be one thing and Death should be another.
Imagine a system where you when you lose all your health, you are defeated. Drop lower than 0 and you are wounded (ability loss when your health goes back over 0 and you wake up - loss of health over time until you're healed). Drop lower than -25% of your total health (choosen arbitrary and meant as an exemple, nothing more) and your character dies.
You shouldn't just pop back at full health at the closest respawn point and continue on just as if nothing happened. Why have health at all, if losing it mean next to nothing?
Say you get a choice when your character dies: Die for good, or turn into a ghost, where you have no way to fight or communicate with other players, and only the players on your friends list and that have you on their friends list (so you can't just add a random person on it to be saved) can see your ghost.
You can't talk to them, but they know they have to find your body (now a pickable item) and bring it (and you) to a temple/healer/whatever who can ressurect you.
You raise, with significant abilty loss that you need to deal with or recover by a mean or another (since they don't replenish by themselves).
No, it's not quite perma-death. But Death becomes an event that actually means something. It even becomes an event in and of itself and generates a quest for both the dead and his/her friends that can actually be lots of fun (UO had a similar system I think).
I agree that a real perma-death system would not work very well in today's games, because of it's permanent quality. Too many things can cause death in MMOS, including lag and exploit from a fellow player, or a bug in the game itself. 3 things that just cannot happen in a pnp RPG system.
A well-balanced system where death is rare and only possible when you lose a fight where you were massively overpowered (and if you engaged in such a fight in the first place, then you only brought it upon yourself) and more importantly, Death is harsh, but NOT irreversible would add more realism, fun, and immersion into a game.
Another possibility is to allow "perma-death" to be an option players can choose, either locally (activating it as an gameplay option, for exemple), or as a special rule for roleplay servers - which would also contribute into making roleplay servers only populated in people who actually want at least some level of immersion.
Just my 2 cents.