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Skill Based vs. Level Based
millerap
Member Posts: 21
Basically every single mmo out there right now is level based. So you gain X amount of exp and you gain a level. Which in turn makes your character more powerful (either through placing "points" into certain skills eg. Guild Wars. Or opening new abilities eg. Vanguard among others).
My question is why devs haven't made more skill based games, where as you do a skill more and more you level up in that particular skill. Fight with a broadsword and you gain melee blade skill, fight with a long bow and you gain long bow skill, harvest cotton for crafting and you gain reaping skill or what not.
Are there games out there now with more of a skill based system? Ryzom is basically the only game I know of that has a system like that, although I'm sure there are others.
My ideal exp system would be one like Dragonrealms (yes the text-based game) But it gives you absolute freedom in the development of the character. And it gives a sense of accomplishment during every but of time that you play. You're constantly seeing your skill evolve as opposed to just plugging away gaining exp points. Additionally, you can do a skill for a while, loading up your learning pool, then go and do something completely different. So its constantly keeping you doing different things.
Anyway... thats my rant on it, I'd like to hear others thoughts and see if maybe I'm the only person longing for a game like that.
Comments
Devs go with what works and are reluctant to change. One of the first MMOs, EQ is level based and was wildly successful. So it makes sense that new games would follow suit. WoW is even more successful and is also level based. So why stray from that? As long as it sells, I don't think devs are going to rock the boat.
Plus there are still plenty of gamers who either prefer leved based MMOs or are just fine with it as is. It's going to take a team deciding to go against the trend to choose to make a skill based game. Not only that, but it is also going to have to be wildly successful before other companies are swayed away from levels and toward skills.
Don't take this post as being pro-level. I myself would prefer a good skill based game.
So its not like everyone can get those items at the same time.
Also, another thought is to make a skill system that generates your supposed class depending on your skill lvl and variance. For the sake of variation to the players, no idea if it could mean anything beyond a title...but, lets say someone practices alot with weapons, more offense then defense and no magic, you could title him a "Berzerker" while someone who practiced magic, of lets say fire base can be called "Fire Mage" whatever, but it could lead to an interesting grouping combinations...
Group needs to go kill a fire based monster, they wont invite a fire mage to the group, but they will invite a frost mage, so a specified class can do more dmg through a specific weapon/spell base but less on others, while balances skilled people would have easy time with overall fights but less dmg...just an example.
As far as level base vs. skill based goes though, skill based allows a much larger amount of freedom. With that freedom though, comes the extra burden of balancing and properly utilizing the fact that you don't have a "level 10" creature being easy when you are "level 20". Basically, it's a lot more work with a skill based system. That is at least part of the reason why it isn't done more heavily. Having to completely throw out conventional wisdom from two decades of RPGs (single and multi-player) takes quite a bit of thinking.
Skill based for the win. I still play UO (not the new expansions......)
Darkfall isnt out yet but is skill based. Darkfall has also said they were going to go to beta for .. 7 years now? So i doubt that its even coming out anymore. It was going to be the next skill based, loot all, kill all, do anything game. *sigh*
You can have both. It's the first time I've posted it here, but I've been saying that until I'm blue in the face. You can still have characters choose a class to play and acquire skills and not levels. It's the best combination imo.
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You can have both. It's the first time I've posted it here, but I've been saying that until I'm blue in the face. You can still have characters choose a class to play and acquire skills and not levels. It's the best combination imo.
I think this is the way to do it. Have the people choose a class at the beggining and then choose what skills they want to work on within that class. If you want to be a jack of all trades then maybe you are a bard class that allows you to do a little of everything, but you can't get skills beyond a certain point. You can be a specialist tank, but then you aren't allowed to put points into other skills. You have to concentrate on the skills that will make you a good tank. You might specialize in shield and 1 hand sword. You just need to make sure you have some restrictions so that group combat can be interesting and everyone can have a role.
To me UO was the best skilled based mmo of all time...It gave you a lot of freedom, and you have a maxxed 700 skill points to train into whatever you felt like doing...There wasnt any balance issues until they made the game more dependent on items and weapons and armor...If you had a full set of plate armor and low melee skills someone who wore leather armor and had high melee skills could beat you...PvP was awesome in this game, all you had to do was pick up any type of armor and weapons and jsut go in there and fight as long if you had good high skills it would be hard for you to die...Mages were awesome in this game they had powerful spells but if someone who trained in resisting magic they could take less damage or not even get affected at all (like poison)...Not good at casting spells but needed to heal yourself? No problem you could train in healing skill using bandages to heal yourself...Now if only they could bring back the old days i remembered...
But the next closest thing to UO would be Darkfall which is also a skilled based game (more like an exact replica of UO but in 3D) imo...I only pray that this game is for real...
Anyway, I'm pro skill-based. Maybe it's because SWG was my first MMO, and the system there at the time gave me so much freedom that got me hooked to MMO, and since then I have wanted to play more skill-based game.
I think some people already mentioned a few reason why skill-based aren't as "popular" in the present MMO market (balance). But I think the underlying issue is the attitude people have on these system.
I have friends who love the class/level games because of the following:
1) Class give players a definite role in group
2) Level give players a way to see their progression in a simple way
3) Level are a good indicator for difficulty against mobs/players.
4) Class/Level has a easier way to balance.
I, on the other hand, love skill-based games because of the following:
1) Skill-based CAN include class/profession within the system, but it shouldn't be the dominant system.
- I'm simply using the idea of the online novels I read. Think if a game where you start out without any affliation and class/profession label on you. You are the one that travels around the work, learning and working on your skills. And one day, when you have the right skills, you head into the office of a NPC guild (like Merchant Union, Mercenary Alliance, ... etc), and you took the entry test to become such class/profession. You have the title, and now with that title of novice, you can learn class/profession-specific skills that only the said class/profession can become. But then maybe another guy that just didn't want to join any guild, he can still develop his character with the skills available.
What I just mentioned is a system that has the choice for both the class players and skill-based players to experience the game, and that's actually the important part - choices for players.2) Skill-based have more choices and inheritly is better suited for when creating a unique character. (for those who said everyone will be a same as everyone else under the skill-based is incorrect. It only happens when players tries to "tweak" the system and said such and such is the best template. But if a skill-based game is in fact balanced, then such won't exict.)
I'm also a avocate for a game without the level indicator (the level XX that shows what everybody is). I want instead something that means something in the game - a rank system (from the previous mentioned exam/test from NPC guild. Of course, a person that didn't want to join any NPC guild can still takes the test to give him a title. This will in fact makes the title means something, and yet in itself means nothing. For if a person who maxed all his skills, but never took the test, he will be just a novice. And if he beats anyone in combat, then people would mistakenly think the system is broken. But there will have many other build-in corresponding features that helps the players to know the rank better, and not fighting someone when they don't want to...). Would you rather have the Level XX warrior as your title, or a Golden Master Warrior as your title?
Anyways, I think I'm rambling now...
Current MMO: FFXIV:ARR
Past MMO: Way too many (P2P and F2P)
I would have to lean towards skill based systems. They provide a good deal more freedom and are far more immersive/realistic considering that you usually gain a skill in whatever you are actually using (i.e. I swing an axe and I get better at swinging an axe as opposed to swinging an axe to gain experience points so that I can spend them on some other un-related skill like casting fireballs of doom).
A way to get around the "con" system is to make it a skill itself that gets better with use. For example, name the skill "appraise" or something similiar and when people use it they can get a rough estimate of the strengths/weaknesses of others. As the skill progresses you can give out more information relative to your character's skills versus the character/npc's skills that your are trying to gauge.
For example, if my character is considered a master of the sword then I might be able to determine how good someone else is with a sword (and maybe what type of style/moves/sub-skills related to the sword that they have skill in) using my skill levels from both my "appraise" skill and my "sword" skills. If my character was inexperienced with a sword maybe all my character would be able to discern is that the other character is better/worse with a sword than I am and the raising of my appraise skill would just make this more of a certainty.
Oh well, got to run.
Someone mentioned in skill based games balancing is tough... I don't see that. Even in a skill based game, you need to pick a class to be in which would control/limit what you could do. A barbarian would not be going around shooting fireballs at things simply because that is how someone chooses to spend their time. A barbarian would be a melee fighter, but choosing which type of weapons to specialize in (heavy, medium, light, blades, blunts, polearms, etc) completely changes the character and how its played, thus making for more unique characters.
I guess I just comepletly dream of the day someone would be smart enough to take Dragonrealms' exp system and put some graphics on top of it... period. And that day probably will never come.
I'd like to see more skill based systems, but definitley NOT like the one described in the OP.
I'm not playing an MMORPG where I have to wack something with my broad sword to go up in broad sword skill. That makes for crappy gameplay IMO, and leads to doing things that make no sense. For example, I've got a broad sword so I want to go up in that skill so I can use it. I will wack everything all day long with my broadsword to go up a bit in broad sword, even if a more efficient attack would work better. Like it's a frost giant, and my most effective thing would be a fire spell. But I'm not gonna use it, because I want to wacka away with my broadsowrd to get that skill up. BOOOOOOOoooooorrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiinnnnnnnnggggg. Dungeon siege was like that. OK, but not something I'd like to see in an MMORPG. Using a sword, even though it's the WORST attack you have, but using it anyway so you can increase your sword skill, is NOT realisitc in case you didn't figure that out, and that's how the game would work with this design.
Give me a skill system with a point system, let me spend my points however I like on whatever skills I like, give me point cap so I can't get every skill in the game, and give me a handicap for taking unlike skills so everyone doesn't become a tank mage, and I'll like it.
MMORPG Maker
Skill based MMO is the only right way to go. Class/lavel based is to easy. Its just one way......
Some say classes and levels make it EASY to understand how hard a mob is to fight?? Why the ¤#"* would you wanna see how tough a mob is???? You will notice that pretty soon anyway.
And classes makes it easy to fit into a group.....wht the hell would it be easy to fit into a group???? I want to earn my place/respect as a "warrior"....not clicking the warrior button in character creation.
I dont want to know anything about anything in a MMO, i want to explore that myself.
I would like to see a MMO where "player skill" is actually the most important. I played a MUD where players would stand out as being very good regardless of the class they played. And the classes were not very balanced, so a good player good win with a bad class.
But getting back on topic, whatever gives me the most options for customization is the one I like. It seems that the better the graphics the less skills we have to pick from. I think WoW and LOTRO and both very weak as far as customization goes, I hope this doesn’t become a trend.
This was untrue in Asheron's Call. There were some templates that were better and some that were good for different things. There were enough important skills that not everyone could have all of them. You also had specialization, allowing your skills to be easier to raise and able to go higher than just trained skills. So people would have different sets of specialized skills. It was all a matter of preference. I might like to specialize creature magic and magic defense, while training the other magic skills. In PvP, you could debuff the crap out of the person and not worry about your trained skills not being able to hit them. The other person would then have to worry about your specialized magic defense.. if he was debuffed, he couldn't hit you with spells.
Of course, that's just an example. I liked that way back before PvP in the game became 1vs1 duels and people holding hands afraid to attack eachother. In groups, it was great. Basically.. what I'm saying is if you have enough IMPORTANT skills, but only give people enough skill points to get some of them, it makes it user preference instead of what's 'best'.
What I'm best with might not be what someone else is best with. A lot of people in AC were hybrids.. They would specialize war magic and sword.. the two most expensive skills in the game of course. They could switch between using magic and using a weapon to fight with. Of course their actual war/sword skills could never be as high as anyone else due to the fact that both skills used different attributes. Magic used attributes based towards magic (focus and willpower).. sword used strength/coordination, and quickness.
So someone could be really good at knowing when to switch in a fight, but I personally didn't know how to use a melee character, so I wasn't good with that.
Giving players choices is what it should be about.
I ilke what they did in Kotor. Kotor had dark and light skills you could pick, and you got bonuses for specializing. If you pick equal dark and light skills, you wouldn't get the best skills. However, there was enough room that you could add some skills from the other side without really hurting your character.
So, have skills give a bonus for like skills. Like if you get 3 healing skills, the fourth healing skill cost 20% less points. Or, if you take a Heavy Armor skill, then lightening spell skills cost 20% more.
You can still mix and match to make unique characters, but not really make a "tank mage" or one skill set that Everyone will use.
In addition I'd add a second class of skills, and give you separate points to spend on those. These would be skills that don't do anything for combat, but arte just for fun, like making smoke come out of your ears, or making horns grow out of another players head for a certain period of time. Usually players won't waste points on skills like these, but if you give them skill points in a separate category that can ONLY be spent on these sorts of fun, but not very useful skill, they won't mind.
Jury is still out whether I like Eve's real time skill training schema vs one that would be based on actually using skills and improving them with repeated usage. (like some single player games used to have)
But I'd be up for giving more skill based games a trial. I think though that such a system makes it difficult to program for games that are based on raiding or questing, which is probably why the original EQ (and others) decided to go with levels.
The early games such as UO/AC were sandboxes with player made content, (much like EVE) so developers didn't have to really be concerned what skills people chose......
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You dont see skill based games merely because levels/classes are a form of control and it allows game publishers to estimate how long players will be in the game. That simple. Game Publishers use things like preorders, etc merely to gauge how much money to invest into advertising etc. They track everything and it's all planed. That is why you have grind. The lengthen player progression until they can get around to adding more 'leveling'. This is why you have end game
Skill based would allow players to build the toons you really want. problem is for the game publisher- "How long will my players play my game?" Well you cant anwser that easily. When you go skill based, just that fast you went sandbox. And sandbox titles depend on the "magic" factor to achieve commercial success. And game publishers have no idea how to get "magic" like Starcraft and Mario Brothers to happen. But they do know how long it will take the avergae gamer to hit the level cap.
Blizzard has this planned to perfection I hear they have Tier 7 content already out there in which no guild can farm yet
Level/Class is merely a form of control. Game Publishers dont take risks they take 'calculated risks'. just like you and me- how do you run your 401k plan or stock market? Do you invest all yourt money in risky investmentsd or do you have your retirement planned on? You reduce your risks no matter what and thats how game publishers work
Bottom line we're pretty screwed. if you want to see innovation buy games like Crackdown for xbox360. Its a nice skill based game. I hope only for more well done coop RPGs like crackdown. And see- Crackdown is also sandbox. so is elder scrolls Oblivion
A game designer told me its much safer to go skill based in offline games because unlike MMOs- I dont have to present clearly tangible goals