Because they don't really have a choice. While they DO have a choice, many of us truly believe in what the Bible (Not the church) has to say. A lot of people are afraid to question what is presented to them as a 'fact' of God, or religion. I don't think that those kind of people know how to take the words of the church (which is more a tool for interpreting the Bible) not seriously.
I have to agree with what I extrapolated from this...Christianity is not the evil entity that people try to peg attrocities on..A few of the churches in history, and their respective leaders (often leading the blind) are the ones that people should look to. I believe in the Bible, the church that I go to puts a very strong emphasis on the Bible and learning from it, in fact you can walk into my church at any time, take a Bible from out of the chapel area (it's a big church with a middle school sized gym and classrooms) and they would be happy for it. My church doesn't associate itself with any denomination, we are simply followers of Christ.
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
Wow, somebody quoted me...for a good reason maybe...
United Churches are good, just my point of view. I find it hard to come across like minded Christians these days, I won't point fingers or name people or anything, but half the time they think speaking in tongues is good...Although it may be! Just not to me thats all....
Death isn't always sad. Last month, the Reverend Jerry Falwell died, and millions of Americans asked, "Why? Why, God? Why didn't you take Pat Robertson with him?!" I don't want to say Jerry was disliked by the gay community, but, tonight, in New York City, at exactly 8:00, Broadway theaters along the Great White Way, for two minutes, turned their lights up.
Now, I know you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but I think we can make an exception, because speaking ill of the dead was kind of Jerry Falwell's hobby. He was the guy who said AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality, and that 9/11 was brought on by pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and the ACLU. Or as I like to call them, "my audience."
But, I found it surreal this week watching people on the news praise Falwell, followed by a clip package of what he actually said. Things like, "Homosexuals are part of a vile and satanic system that will be utterly annihilated." "If you're not a born again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." "Feminists just need a man around the house." "There is no separation of church and state." And of course, everyone's favorite, "The purple Teletubby is gay."
Jerry Falwell found out that you could launder your hate through the cover of God's will. He didn't hate gays. God does. All Jerry Falwell's power came from name-dropping God. And gay people should steal that trick.
You know what? Don't say you want something because it's your right as a human being. Say you want it because it's your religion. Gay men have been going at things backwards. Forget civil rights and just make gayness a religion. I mean, you're kneeling anyway.
And it's easy to start a religion. Watch. I'll do it for you. I had a vision last night. A vision. The Blessed Virgin Mary came to me. I don't know how she got past the guards. And she told me it's high time to take the high ground from the Seventh Day Adventists and give it to the 24-Hour Party People. And that what happens in the confessional stays in the confessional.
Gay men, don't say you're life partners. Say you're a nunnery of two. "We weren't having sex, officer. I was performing a very private Mass. Here in my car. I was letting my rod and my staff comfort him."
"Take this, and eat of it, for this is my roommate, Barry."
"And for all those who truly believe, there's a special place for you, in 'Kevin.'"
And, speaking of heaven, one can only hope that as Jerry Falwell now approaches the Pearly Gates, he is met there by God Himself, wearing a Fire Island muscle shirt and nut-hugger shorts, and saying to Jerry in mighty lisp, "I'm not talking to you!"
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
Gov. Mitt Romney can kiss my ass. This is great news. Now if they want to try for it again, it wont make it to the ballot till 2012. XD But I also feel that the government should stay out of marriage. Some religions want only a man/woman. But there are also other religions, like Pagan ones such as Wicca, that allow man/man woman/woman and man/woman as well. But they arn't allowed to get married to the same sex. Pretty absured.
There are also Christian churches (such as mine) that don't see the Bible saying homosexual love is a sin."You shall not lie with a male, as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" Leviticus 18:22
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them shall have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltyness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13
I think the word 'abomination' is pretty damning...Men who lie with other men, shall be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death. I couldn't find that passage, it read something like that....
The point? Homosexuals are wrong. Even Lesbians, the good looking ones too, however much I love them...they are an Abomination...
So says a book. I don't give to shits what a silly book says. It's not part of my religion. My religion says is NOT a sin. So bah.
I could somewhat believe the bible if people did not treat it so literally. Yes man on earth might have been created from an extraterrestrial source.
For all we know God was a space fairing colony of humans that were looking for a planet to inhabit just like us earthling will have to do someday.
We only have a limited time where earth will be habitable to us. We too will have to travel space or perish.
So maybe we are the offspring or genetic creation of a spiecies that had no home and were wandering space looking to colonize. That I can believe. That is more realistic than an omnicient force creating everything.
Maybe god was the race of people looking for a new home. Maybe jesus was a son of them living among us ignorant offspring. Maybe heaven is an analogy for space. Maybe hell is an analogy for death.
All of that seems more logical than what people believe from the bible.
Edit: Whoa total non sequitor. Dont type while drunk!
So, it took the legislatures to do the right thing in a state finally. Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that. Mob rules does not work and it never has. I congratulate them for having the balls to stand up to the masses and tell them that storming the castle with pitchforks to get at the "monster" inside doesn't work in this country.
And it took social liberals to stand up to social conservatives who used to claim to be for less intrusive government? Wow, what a strange new world we live in. But then again, wasn't it social conservatives who didn't want blacks to be equal either? I guess there not all that much for freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as much as they think they are.
I am glad it worked out for you but having a republic can fuck you over too. for instance here in my home town the legislators decided to build three new stadiums with tax money even though the masses voted them down. so now it cost me like 5 bucks for a pabst blue ribbon god bless the republic.
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters. Seriously? Or are you going to edit a "/sarcasm off" into that in a moment or two?
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters.We live in a democratic republic. We elect people to make decisions (i.e. vote) for us on important topics because it was widely perceived that the common man is uneducated. That was the intention of the founding fathers -- it's tough to argue things have changed all that much since then.
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters.We live in a democratic republic. We elect people to make decisions (i.e. vote) for us on important topics because it was widely perceived that the common man is uneducated. That was the intention of the founding fathers -- it's tough to argue things have changed all that much since then.
OMG. Yes, as above your post. /sarcasm off. For christ's sake.
Edit: This is why I hate coming back after not posting for a while. So many new members do not know of my posting style. Sheesh.
Religious Marriage should be between a man and a woman. (IE a marriage in a church) Legal marriage done by a civil servant (like a judge) should be between any sex. Man/Man Man/Woman Woman/Woman should all legally be allowed. Whether it is called a marriage or not, well that is up to society really, but a civil union should be allowed by all people no matter what sexual orientation they are. (and that civil union should confer all the same rights that a marriage does, no exceptions and it should be nation wide)
But I still stand by that Marriage in the religious sense should not be allowed at least in christian churches, since it is specifically against the Bible.
Who are you to say that the true meaning of religion says that you can't marry the same sex. You go by the bible which is MAN MADE and not actual facts. Everything in the bible is on par with a fairy tale. If a gay couple is religious who are you to stop them from having there church bell weddings? If there gay who cares is it really effecting your way of life if they got married in a church? Yeah its not.
"You shall not lie with a male, as one lies with a female; it is an abomination" Leviticus 18:22
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them shall have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltyness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13
I think the word 'abomination' is pretty damning...Men who lie with other men, shall be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death. I couldn't find that passage, it read something like that....
The point? Homosexuals are wrong. Even Lesbians, the good looking ones too, however much I love them...they are an Abomination...
Check my sig, Simmage.
And read up on Levitical law since you're so quick to quote it. I see your sig is refering how eating bottom dweller fish is an abomination. Levitical law is less law and pardon my blasphemy, but more...guidelines. The part refering to not eating those types of animals is outdated. Back in the day when the Bible was written, people couldn't risk eating animals (Such as Pigs) that could contain disease.
I agree with others when I say that Civil Marriage between Man and Man is fine. If they wisj to be married by the church, it's up to the church.
I don't really see your point, asking me to read levitical law, it's pretty basic commom sence. Although he does like that word Abominantion. Which Homo's are btw. I can't change your mind is you disagree though.
And for future reference if anyone would like to know...I'm Luthrein Guidelines which also recommend that unprotected anal sex can result in infection and the spread of diseases? I should also point out that the verse you quote does NOT say that homo's are an abomination - just the act. You should read it again. Interestingly, while 20:13 is usually translated as they shall be put to death, it can be argued that the exact translation can be read "dying they will die", which could possibly suggest the dangers of such an act, rather than the punishment.
Personally, I feel that a God who codemns certain people from birth to a lonely, single life, doesn't sound like the same God that Jesus talks about. Leviticus also suggests that adultery should carry the death penalty, and clearly Jesus did not think so. It also suggests that not honouring the Sabbath in a certain way deserved strict punishment. Jesus suggested that we'd got the wrong end of the stick on such things.
It appears that Paul probably viewed homosexual sex as unnatural, but then Paul wasn't Jesus, and had his own take on spiritual matters which were far more based in the society and beliefs of the time than some of the things that Jesus said. He even had disagreements with the disciples on certain issues, so I think we'd be naive to take his letters as anything more than they were intended to be.
I agree with some of the other posters in this thread that governemnt and Church marriage should be separatated. I fully supported the recent change over here in the UK which allows for gay civil unions.
Religious Marriage should be between a man and a woman. (IE a marriage in a church) Legal marriage done by a civil servant (like a judge) should be between any sex. Man/Man Man/Woman Woman/Woman should all legally be allowed. Whether it is called a marriage or not, well that is up to society really, but a civil union should be allowed by all people no matter what sexual orientation they are. (and that civil union should confer all the same rights that a marriage does, no exceptions and it should be nation wide)
But I still stand by that Marriage in the religious sense should not be allowed at least in christian churches, since it is specifically against the Bible.
Who are you to say that the true meaning of religion says that you can't marry the same sex. You go by the bible which is MAN MADE and not actual facts. Everything in the bible is on par with a fairy tale. If a gay couple is religious who are you to stop them from having there church bell weddings? If there gay who cares is it really effecting your way of life if they got married in a church? Yeah its not. Surely a religion, denomination or church can choose to marry (or not) whoever they want? Or are you suggesting the government should come in and force their hand over such things?
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters. Well last time I checked, America also takes great pride in being a FREE COUNTRY.
You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period.
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters. Well last time I checked, America also takes great pride in being a FREE COUNTRY.
You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period. Read a few posts above.
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters.We live in a democratic republic. We elect people to make decisions (i.e. vote) for us on important topics because it was widely perceived that the common man is uneducated. That was the intention of the founding fathers -- it's tough to argue things have changed all that much since then.
OMG. Yes, as above your post. /sarcasm off. For christ's sake.
Edit: This is why I hate coming back after not posting for a while. So many new members do not know of my posting style. Sheesh.Sorry, but your sarcasm wasn't very obvious and even with 3000+ posts to your credit, you shouldn't assume your reputation precedes you.
Whether you are for or opposed to gay marriage, there are far more important issues that get closely decided by a swing vote, and the gay population (3%? 4%?) can make that difference.
Since the legalization of gay marriage is such a small concession, and a 4% increase in the vote count to save our Constitutional amendments which are being daily challenged by Leftists legislators is at stake, I say give it to them. Letting them marry is nothing, nothing, a nothing concession, People. And we need their votes for far weightier matters.
Religious Marriage should be between a man and a woman. (IE a marriage in a church) Legal marriage done by a civil servant (like a judge) should be between any sex. Man/Man Man/Woman Woman/Woman should all legally be allowed. Whether it is called a marriage or not, well that is up to society really, but a civil union should be allowed by all people no matter what sexual orientation they are. (and that civil union should confer all the same rights that a marriage does, no exceptions and it should be nation wide)
But I still stand by that Marriage in the religious sense should not be allowed at least in christian churches, since it is specifically against the Bible.
Who are you to say that the true meaning of religion says that you can't marry the same sex. You go by the bible which is MAN MADE and not actual facts. Everything in the bible is on par with a fairy tale. If a gay couple is religious who are you to stop them from having there church bell weddings? If there gay who cares is it really effecting your way of life if they got married in a church? Yeah its not.Surely a religion, denomination or church can choose to marry (or not) whoever they want? Or are you suggesting the government should come in and force their hand over such things?Im more of the opinion its not in the hands of neither. Every religious officals beliefs are based off whatever the main book and that book was made by man so how can u say its true. If you want to bring what god would want you should also put in perspective that God created these people aswell and they choose to be gay because god gave them the choice. None of the ten commandments say anything about gay marriage and if two gay people love eachother im 100% sure that god would approve of this. Government should have anything to do with this and also yes if certain churches don't want to marry someone one they will only spawn new churches of the same beliefs so the gays could get married so its kind of pointless for a priest to deny this.
All the cute crap from the West Wing will get you nowhere as soon as someone starts quoting Romans, which also talks about Homosexual acts being sinful.
So says your churches interpretation.
So says all but the most liberal and agendized churches. I hate to break it to you, but from everything that I've seen and read on the issue, there is no reason whatsoever to interpret the passages as anything but what they have traditionally been interpreted as. We had a debate about this a few weeks ago and Upallnight was going to send me a PM with his pastor's reasoning for believing that the passages in Romans and Kings were having to do with homosexual prostitution(as opposed to homosexual love)...as of yet I have not recieved a PM about it and continue to have absolutely no reason to interpret them as anything but what they say in very plain language. I believe that the spirit and letter of what is written in the Bible regarding homosexuality, and sexual sin of ANY kind, is very clear...It is only recently that churches have begun to reinterpret it to mean something else in an effort to fit with current standards of moral relativity...such is NOT a permissable practice when it comes to Biblical text. It is not there for people to twist and change to make their own.
Please note that I am not putting homosexuality on any kind of a pedestol regarding the graveness of the sin. The severity of a sin is not for me to judge, and I do not believe that homosexual lifestyles are any more sinful than people who engage heterosexual sin.
So, what you've resorted to now is saying that your interpretation is the correct one and everyone else who challenges you is wrong. That's quite a stand to take. Especially since as many people who read the Bible have virtually as many different interpretations of it. Even as far back as the Arians (who I might add still have an influence on many people in Western Europe and other places).
Draenor, I say this with the utmost respect (mostly so you don't fly off the handle) but you've stooped to some kind of low here that I don't find respectable at all. And I say that for a few reasons. Politically, socially, and even religiously. I could go into detail on each of those, but I don't really feel like it. Mostly because I'm not trying to persuade you to change, because like I said in one of my other posts, I'm not even going to pretend to be like that anymore. What I am defending is Upallnight being able to believe what he finds his truth out of all this. What makes him feel better and, if needed, makes him feel a closer relationship to God.
How dare some people call others "wrong" for whatever reason. It seems your reasoning is because you're in a majority group (which to me means about 0 credibility) and also because anyone who carries a "liberal" view on anything is suddenly a whacko that you don't even consider anymore.
Do you have any idea what it is like to have lived like Upallnight to this point? I don't, and I don't think you can claim that either. But if there is a God, then I bet he knows all about Upallnight ad how he made him. And I bet his relationship with Upallnight is as close or maybe even closer as yours. Upallnight has to stand up for his belief in God on this level. And from what I've seen of gay people living in today's society, that takes a pretty fu*king bold stand and a lot bigger man than most of us could ever claim to be. I don't know if I could pull myself out of the dirt and try to live a respectable life as a Christian if I were gay. Society kicks you left and right and then when you're down calls you something else.
You can use your book to call him an abomination and you can see it how ever you want, but I'm going to stand side by side with Upallnight on this one. He has never told you that you are wrong in your beliefs, he has simply told everyone that his church believes differently. Yet, person after person comes on this site and tells him he and the others he worships Jesus with are wrong. I think that is sad. Very very sad.
I would go to Upallnight's church and follow his congregation before I would even give yours the time of day. I sense there is more love and charitableness and forgiveness in that church and with those people than a hundred other churches. And if I were Jesus I would recognize that light and that lack of hypocrisy from anywhere.
You people and your readings that exhibit condemnation and exclusion are scary to me. I wonder to myself where you get that from the words of Jesus? I don't remember reading anywhere that anyone left the presence of Jesus feeling condemned or "wrong" for following him in any form.
@Upallnight - You're my freakin' hero man! I admire your strength and approach to this. I hope that I could be half as strong as you in your situation. If there is any truth in all this, I think you hold it. I remember a quote (and I paraphrase) saying that the downtrodden of his followers are who God loves. You've definitely put up with enough from this world to be downtrodden and still found your faith even then.
Things like this should NEVER be left up to the voters and these legislatures saw that. We do not live in a democracy and there is a reason for that.
What? We DO live in a democracy. And this IS something that should have been up to the voters. Well last time I checked, America also takes great pride in being a FREE COUNTRY.
You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period. You must've checked a long time ago.
Lately it's been people giving up freedoms for fear or since they realize they can use the government for their own bidding.
I listen to Neal Boortz a lot. And I take the same stand as him on this. Gay marriage is a matter of personal equality in the eyes of the government. It's not a religious debate but one of civil liberties. Anyone who brings religion into this debate is mixing church and state and letting their emotions control their stand. If people want this to be a religious issue then they should work to get the government out of the marriage business.
Whether you are for or opposed to gay marriage, there are far more important issues that get closely decided by a swing vote, and the gay population (3%? 4%?) can make that difference. Since the legalization of gay marriage is such a small concession, and a 4% increase in the vote count to save our Constitutional amendments which are being daily challenged by Leftists legislators is at stake, I say give it to them. Letting them marry is nothing, nothing, a nothing concession, People. And we need their votes for far weightier matters.
Yeah, but it's sure a galvanizing issue. And you've got a shit load of haters and Bible thumper's who will pull that Republican tab in the polling booth to sock it to those homo's.
I'm just glad we don't live in a Democracy. This would be a scary country at this point.
Look at what they used to do to gays (click link below). Do you think this wouldn't come back if we left this whole issue up to the voters? I learned about this guy in one of my computer classes. He practically saves the western world from the Nazi's, but look what the west gives him in return...
So says all but the most liberal and agendized churches. I hate to break it to you, but from everything that I've seen and read on the issue, there is no reason whatsoever to interpret the passages as anything but what they have traditionally been interpreted as. We had a debate about this a few weeks ago and Upallnight was going to send me a PM with his pastor's reasoning for believing that the passages in Romans and Kings were having to do with homosexual prostitution(as opposed to homosexual love)...as of yet I have not recieved a PM about it and continue to have absolutely no reason to interpret them as anything but what they say in very plain language. I believe that the spirit and letter of what is written in the Bible regarding homosexuality, and sexual sin of ANY kind, is very clear...It is only recently that churches have begun to reinterpret it to mean something else in an effort to fit with current standards of moral relativity...such is NOT a permissable practice when it comes to Biblical text. It is not there for people to twist and change to make their own. Please note that I am not putting homosexuality on any kind of a pedestol regarding the graveness of the sin.The severity of a sin is not for me to judge, and I do not believe that homosexual lifestyles are any more sinful than people who engage heterosexual sin.
Who made you God? Like seriously, Man made the bible so we can change it all we want. If you think a angel wrote the bible along side God you are sadly mistaken. If anything the bible is fake and everything in it was just created to just have a referance for future religions to tell people from right and wrong. And how can you say this is a Sin to do what nature has you feel inside. Have you ever thought that maybe Gay people are gay so they dont procreate a way of nature balancing out the numbers? There is probably a lot of gay people in the world there just scared of what they feel so they pretend to be heterosexual just because thats what there told is normal. You know nothing on this matter and should just leave this tread alone.
Damn thats some F-d up Sh**. If your gay your gay who cares not like there going to turn the whole population into homosexuals. Homosexuals want to be that way because they want to be that way.
Comments
Your argument is like a two legged dog with an eating disorder...weak and unbalanced.
United Churches are good, just my point of view. I find it hard to come across like minded Christians these days, I won't point fingers or name people or anything, but half the time they think speaking in tongues is good...Although it may be! Just not to me thats all....
fksj...
Now, I know you're not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but I think we can make an exception, because speaking ill of the dead was kind of Jerry Falwell's hobby. He was the guy who said AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality, and that 9/11 was brought on by pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and the ACLU. Or as I like to call them, "my audience."
But, I found it surreal this week watching people on the news praise Falwell, followed by a clip package of what he actually said. Things like, "Homosexuals are part of a vile and satanic system that will be utterly annihilated." "If you're not a born again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." "Feminists just need a man around the house." "There is no separation of church and state." And of course, everyone's favorite, "The purple Teletubby is gay."
Jerry Falwell found out that you could launder your hate through the cover of God's will. He didn't hate gays. God does. All Jerry Falwell's power came from name-dropping God. And gay people should steal that trick.
You know what? Don't say you want something because it's your right as a human being. Say you want it because it's your religion. Gay men have been going at things backwards. Forget civil rights and just make gayness a religion. I mean, you're kneeling anyway.
And it's easy to start a religion. Watch. I'll do it for you. I had a vision last night. A vision. The Blessed Virgin Mary came to me. I don't know how she got past the guards. And she told me it's high time to take the high ground from the Seventh Day Adventists and give it to the 24-Hour Party People. And that what happens in the confessional stays in the confessional.
Gay men, don't say you're life partners. Say you're a nunnery of two. "We weren't having sex, officer. I was performing a very private Mass. Here in my car. I was letting my rod and my staff comfort him."
"Take this, and eat of it, for this is my roommate, Barry."
"And for all those who truly believe, there's a special place for you, in 'Kevin.'"
And, speaking of heaven, one can only hope that as Jerry Falwell now approaches the Pearly Gates, he is met there by God Himself, wearing a Fire Island muscle shirt and nut-hugger shorts, and saying to Jerry in mighty lisp, "I'm not talking to you!"
The most important part of reading is reading between the lines.
Also...not Amen...God only wears Black and Blue shirts and nut-huggers, get it together!
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them shall have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltyness is upon them." Leviticus 20:13
I think the word 'abomination' is pretty damning...Men who lie with other men, shall be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death. I couldn't find that passage, it read something like that....
The point? Homosexuals are wrong. Even Lesbians, the good looking ones too, however much I love them...they are an Abomination...
So says a book. I don't give to shits what a silly book says. It's not part of my religion. My religion says is NOT a sin. So bah.
For all we know God was a space fairing colony of humans that were looking for a planet to inhabit just like us earthling will have to do someday.
We only have a limited time where earth will be habitable to us. We too will have to travel space or perish.
So maybe we are the offspring or genetic creation of a spiecies that had no home and were wandering space looking to colonize. That I can believe. That is more realistic than an omnicient force creating everything.
Maybe god was the race of people looking for a new home. Maybe jesus was a son of them living among us ignorant offspring. Maybe heaven is an analogy for space. Maybe hell is an analogy for death.
All of that seems more logical than what people believe from the bible.
Edit: Whoa total non sequitor. Dont type while drunk!
OMG. Yes, as above your post. /sarcasm off. For christ's sake.
Edit: This is why I hate coming back after not posting for a while. So many new members do not know of my posting style. Sheesh.
And read up on Levitical law since you're so quick to quote it.
I agree with others when I say that Civil Marriage between Man and Man is fine. If they wisj to be married by the church, it's up to the church.
I don't really see your point, asking me to read levitical law, it's pretty basic commom sence. Although he does like that word Abominantion. Which Homo's are btw. I can't change your mind is you disagree though.
And for future reference if anyone would like to know...I'm Luthrein Guidelines which also recommend that unprotected anal sex can result in infection and the spread of diseases? I should also point out that the verse you quote does NOT say that homo's are an abomination - just the act. You should read it again. Interestingly, while 20:13 is usually translated as they shall be put to death, it can be argued that the exact translation can be read "dying they will die", which could possibly suggest the dangers of such an act, rather than the punishment.
Personally, I feel that a God who codemns certain people from birth to a lonely, single life, doesn't sound like the same God that Jesus talks about. Leviticus also suggests that adultery should carry the death penalty, and clearly Jesus did not think so. It also suggests that not honouring the Sabbath in a certain way deserved strict punishment. Jesus suggested that we'd got the wrong end of the stick on such things.
It appears that Paul probably viewed homosexual sex as unnatural, but then Paul wasn't Jesus, and had his own take on spiritual matters which were far more based in the society and beliefs of the time than some of the things that Jesus said. He even had disagreements with the disciples on certain issues, so I think we'd be naive to take his letters as anything more than they were intended to be.
I agree with some of the other posters in this thread that governemnt and Church marriage should be separatated. I fully supported the recent change over here in the UK which allows for gay civil unions.
You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period.
You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period. Read a few posts above.
OMG. Yes, as above your post. /sarcasm off. For christ's sake.
Edit: This is why I hate coming back after not posting for a while. So many new members do not know of my posting style. Sheesh.Sorry, but your sarcasm wasn't very obvious and even with 3000+ posts to your credit, you shouldn't assume your reputation precedes you.
Whether you are for or opposed to gay marriage, there are far more important issues that get closely decided by a swing vote, and the gay population (3%? 4%?) can make that difference.
Since the legalization of gay marriage is such a small concession, and a 4% increase in the vote count to save our Constitutional amendments which are being daily challenged by Leftists legislators is at stake, I say give it to them. Letting them marry is nothing, nothing, a nothing concession, People. And we need their votes for far weightier matters.
So says all but the most liberal and agendized churches. I hate to break it to you, but from everything that I've seen and read on the issue, there is no reason whatsoever to interpret the passages as anything but what they have traditionally been interpreted as. We had a debate about this a few weeks ago and Upallnight was going to send me a PM with his pastor's reasoning for believing that the passages in Romans and Kings were having to do with homosexual prostitution(as opposed to homosexual love)...as of yet I have not recieved a PM about it and continue to have absolutely no reason to interpret them as anything but what they say in very plain language. I believe that the spirit and letter of what is written in the Bible regarding homosexuality, and sexual sin of ANY kind, is very clear...It is only recently that churches have begun to reinterpret it to mean something else in an effort to fit with current standards of moral relativity...such is NOT a permissable practice when it comes to Biblical text. It is not there for people to twist and change to make their own.
Please note that I am not putting homosexuality on any kind of a pedestol regarding the graveness of the sin. The severity of a sin is not for me to judge, and I do not believe that homosexual lifestyles are any more sinful than people who engage heterosexual sin.
So, what you've resorted to now is saying that your interpretation is the correct one and everyone else who challenges you is wrong. That's quite a stand to take. Especially since as many people who read the Bible have virtually as many different interpretations of it. Even as far back as the Arians (who I might add still have an influence on many people in Western Europe and other places).Draenor, I say this with the utmost respect (mostly so you don't fly off the handle) but you've stooped to some kind of low here that I don't find respectable at all. And I say that for a few reasons. Politically, socially, and even religiously. I could go into detail on each of those, but I don't really feel like it. Mostly because I'm not trying to persuade you to change, because like I said in one of my other posts, I'm not even going to pretend to be like that anymore. What I am defending is Upallnight being able to believe what he finds his truth out of all this. What makes him feel better and, if needed, makes him feel a closer relationship to God.
How dare some people call others "wrong" for whatever reason. It seems your reasoning is because you're in a majority group (which to me means about 0 credibility) and also because anyone who carries a "liberal" view on anything is suddenly a whacko that you don't even consider anymore.
Do you have any idea what it is like to have lived like Upallnight to this point? I don't, and I don't think you can claim that either. But if there is a God, then I bet he knows all about Upallnight ad how he made him. And I bet his relationship with Upallnight is as close or maybe even closer as yours. Upallnight has to stand up for his belief in God on this level. And from what I've seen of gay people living in today's society, that takes a pretty fu*king bold stand and a lot bigger man than most of us could ever claim to be. I don't know if I could pull myself out of the dirt and try to live a respectable life as a Christian if I were gay. Society kicks you left and right and then when you're down calls you something else.
You can use your book to call him an abomination and you can see it how ever you want, but I'm going to stand side by side with Upallnight on this one. He has never told you that you are wrong in your beliefs, he has simply told everyone that his church believes differently. Yet, person after person comes on this site and tells him he and the others he worships Jesus with are wrong. I think that is sad. Very very sad.
I would go to Upallnight's church and follow his congregation before I would even give yours the time of day. I sense there is more love and charitableness and forgiveness in that church and with those people than a hundred other churches. And if I were Jesus I would recognize that light and that lack of hypocrisy from anywhere.
You people and your readings that exhibit condemnation and exclusion are scary to me. I wonder to myself where you get that from the words of Jesus? I don't remember reading anywhere that anyone left the presence of Jesus feeling condemned or "wrong" for following him in any form.
@Upallnight - You're my freakin' hero man! I admire your strength and approach to this. I hope that I could be half as strong as you in your situation. If there is any truth in all this, I think you hold it. I remember a quote (and I paraphrase) saying that the downtrodden of his followers are who God loves. You've definitely put up with enough from this world to be downtrodden and still found your faith even then.
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You should not have a say in someone else's happiness. Period. You must've checked a long time ago.
Lately it's been people giving up freedoms for fear or since they realize they can use the government for their own bidding.
I listen to Neal Boortz a lot. And I take the same stand as him on this. Gay marriage is a matter of personal equality in the eyes of the government. It's not a religious debate but one of civil liberties. Anyone who brings religion into this debate is mixing church and state and letting their emotions control their stand. If people want this to be a religious issue then they should work to get the government out of the marriage business.
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I'm just glad we don't live in a Democracy. This would be a scary country at this point.
Look at what they used to do to gays (click link below). Do you think this wouldn't come back if we left this whole issue up to the voters? I learned about this guy in one of my computer classes. He practically saves the western world from the Nazi's, but look what the west gives him in return...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Prosecution_for_homosexual_acts_and_Turing.27s_death
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Damn thats some F-d up Sh**. If your gay your gay who cares not like there going to turn the whole population into homosexuals. Homosexuals want to be that way because they want to be that way.