It is nothing more then the "Level / Abilities System" most every game has, only one I know that was total different was Neocron.
The only thing WoW did right was the leveling that was not the same long drawn out process it's predecessors was which attracted new people to the MMOG market. But the end game failed with "Raiding" being the end game as in most MMOG. Also it's downfall like all other games is the "Required Class / Spec".
A lot of what people are looking for is a break out from the forced groups and raiding at end game, because most people usually start playing with one or 2 other people and not large groups that can easily fill in raids.
Also another downfall to most games is the whole "Tank / DPS / Healer" "Class / Specs"(Simple Skill Tree [only way most games have any kind of way to customize the character class])
I think a lot of this could be solved by changing the way the leveling systems works where you reduce the leveling curve and add alot more levels(1000 maybe more) that would give you point(s) to spend on a Skill Tree and let people customize the character from the start. Respeccing shouldn't be easy but at the same time you shouldn't lost all the effort you put in to leveling up, meaning something like at high levels you would lose say maybe one level for every 50 - 60 points you want to respec and at the same time as a way to prevent people respeccing all the time make it so there is a cool down between removing points example you go to a NPC in a city and they remove 1 - 5 points every 30 seconds to 2 minutes.
Also PvE Death should not be free but at the same time no wants to play a game where you lost xp from death, Time to get back and Repair costs should be enough for death.
With PvP none of this Instances or Flags that can be turned on and off anywhere. PvP need to take place in a large open area where you can capture places and get bonuses for doing it but at the same time make it some one (Guild / Clan) can't capture the whole PvP area. Also with the PvP Flag make it so can be changed but only in a city as long as you haven't been griefing(there are lots of systems out there for that).
Almost everything in a game should be crafted but has lower quality versions that drop or are sold in shops, some of the high end rare stuff should be rare drops that are used to craft items, also recipes should be only obtained by reverse engineering an item and most of the crafting material can be found in shops.
Also Mounts(Creature) / Transportation(Mechanical) should be a open to all levels and not just an endgame item. Mounts / Transportation should be sold for high prices, but with skills some player should be able to tram and train mounts and resell them , and also for Transportation it should be crafted like other game items.
So far most of the MMOG's come out fantasy based I personally would like to see somemore Sci-Fi or Cyberpunk which are not so niche market or IP based and that is more FPS based(Doesn't need to be true FPS as long as it has the feel of personal skill over random dice rolling that most MMOG's have) with a Good PvP, PvE, Player Trade, Crafting and Leveling all-in-one.
*Edit*
Alot of the success of MMOG is the fact of the death of Multi-Player CO-OP games for PC most of the people that grow up playing Multi-Player CO-OP games for the PC don't like the control system of the console based games.
Originally posted by Ciredric Back to the news topic. One fact completely escaped the writer in this article. Wow is an EQ clone.
Have you read any of the other posts? Can we stop having these two topics brought up?
1) I'm sick of hearing "WoW clone", those people are stupid. (I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but why not listen to the argument before fuming, it might be different than what you're expecting)
2) WoW is a clone of EQ, and the author didn't mention that.
The author did in fact mention that:
"The funny thing about WoW clone syndrome is that it used to be "EverQuest" clone syndrome. And before that, EverQuest copied mechanics and ideas from its predecessors in multi-user dungeons (MUDs), which in turn evolved from single-player computer RPGs that originated in pen-and-paper RPGs (like Warhammer and Dungeons & Dragons), which were all based off of... Tolkien - and other classic fantasy writers."
So no, it didn't "completely" escape the author. As I said, this article I think isn't so much singling out WoW as just saying that as long as this trend of MMOs not innovating in gameplay continues, they will be compared to the latest MMO that has done it best.
There are so many problems with this article, I don't even know where to begin. Okay, actually I do. But I'm just going to hit the high points.
"WoW clones"? Please. Anyone who uses this phrase has already proved himself incapable of rational thought.
Vanguard? As a case study? Are you freakin' kidding me? The game was so incompetently executed that it has no relevance and no basis for comparison with any serious game out there. If you think it failed because of "WoW clone syndrome," you know nothing about MMOGs, their history, or what makes the good ones good.
Using LotR as a case study is a path fraught with peril. The setting is fantasy, to be sure, but a very specific one, a setting with an established fan base. As long as the gameplay is not egregious (cf. Vanguard), there will be subscribers (cf. Star Wars Galaxies). So the place of LotR in this argument is tangential at best. You really should have waited until some of the upcoming fantasy titles were released.
Touting WoW as the pinnacle of the genre is the height of insanity. Do you really believe that game could not have been done better? If so, I feel very sorry for you.
In general, most of the points in the article were a logical stretch, as if you wanted your voice to be heard but had very little to say.
I'll be honest; I just can't get over the sentence "...many didn't give Vanguard a chance to prove itself." That right there proves that the author knows absolutely nothing about the MMOG market. Vanguard got more of a chance than it deserved. What it actually deserved was to be delayed indefinitely until the developers made it worthy of the consumer's hard drive space -- which, given the incompetence of the Sigil team, means it would have died from lack of funding before hitting the shelves. Oh, if only!
Darthus and krispydemon understand, in my opinion. It's really about the big picture. Sure, you can easily get tied up with the wording of his written opinion and limit your perception. I think the EVE Online developer was thinking outside the box or at least using a larger perspective. I've been playing online games of all types for many years. In the big picture, the fantasy genre has pretty much kept the same mold throughout the years. The same general game mechanics but with a different look or feel. I believe that's all the developer was saying.
Personally and intuitively, I've felt people are getting tired of this mold the fantasy genre game companies are using and reusing. I know LoTRO felt no different than the many other games I've played in this genre, including WoW. I felt no interest at all in starting up an account with that game, even though I love the lore and stories.
If you want to make a difference, stop paying for and playing these games. It may sound strange, but that's why nothing is changing. We keep funding what's being released. We also, in general, as humans tend to go with the flow. Nothing is going to change until the masses are slowly shown the light.
Originally posted by krispydemon
There all just games in the same Genre. There are only so many ways that you can have an elf and a dwarf in a game fight a orc or something. All this clone talk is stupid. You know what, most MMOs play similar, even the fabled EVE, but to say that they're all cloning each other... crazy talk. WoW didn't "rip off" Everquest" any more than LOTRO "cloned" WoW. They're different games in the same Genre. F.E.A.R. didn't "steal" from Doom any more than Vanguard did from WoW. Developers take what worked from one game and apply it to their own. It's the way things are done. WoW's interface is pretty good and a lot of people like it, including, probably, the devopers of LOTRO. Should they have just made something that may or may not suck just so that it didn't look anything like WoW's interface? How many games use the WASD keys for movement? Should that be restricted only to the first game that ever did that? What about using function keys for different weapons or spells? If something works for a game, it would be stupid for other developers makeing similar games to NOT borrow from that. It's how things get better. Innovation is really just evolution. While it may not be visible from one generation to the next, it is there. Even if a game came out that's sole purpose was to copy WoW, there would still be things that they try that end up working better than the way WoW does it, and it wouldn't be an improvement to justt that game, but to every other game down the line when they see how much better things are with the new function/layout/skill/quest/etc.
At the same time though, the high fantasy stuff is getting tired. I have no problems with gameplay being similar or anything like that, but why, oh why, does everything have to be based in some tolkien-esqe fantasy world? Give me some horror, sci-fi, or modern crime fighting spy extravaganza. Something that doesn't have leather skullcaps and named swords. Enough is enough.
so basically you are a girl who wants to be able to change your outfit as often as possible and look pretty, got ya *rolls eyes*
Yeah...? If the MMO's story is garbage - what are MMO's about?
Charater development. Look cool and beating the crab out of stuff. In MMO's - you beat the crap out of stuff way too much. So it usually boils down to being content with your character.
Or PvP. And honestly? Most MMO-based PvP is for complete idiots. If I have this UNSATIABLE URGE TO MURDER MAIM KILL AND PWNT N00BS AND FLEX MY ENORMOUS AWESOMENESS ON THE INTARWEBS!...... I go play a FPS like Battlefield or something. Where even a kit-less new player can eradicated some idiot who's been grinding the game for months.
If you grind for PvP and bragging rights - you're a sociopath.
Have you read any of the other posts? Can we stop having these two topics brought up?
1) I'm sick of hearing "WoW clone", those people are stupid. (I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but why not listen to the argument before fuming, it might be different than what you're expecting)
2) WoW is a clone of EQ, and the author didn't mention that.
The author did in fact mention that:
"The funny thing about WoW clone syndrome is that it used to be "EverQuest" clone syndrome. And before that, EverQuest copied mechanics and ideas from its predecessors in multi-user dungeons (MUDs), which in turn evolved from single-player computer RPGs that originated in pen-and-paper RPGs (like Warhammer and Dungeons & Dragons), which were all based off of... Tolkien - and other classic fantasy writers."
So no, it didn't "completely" escape the author. As I said, this article I think isn't so much singling out WoW as just saying that as long as this trend of MMOs not innovating in gameplay continues, they will be compared to the latest MMO that has done it best.
D&D was derived from Tolkien. RPGs are derived from D&D. MMORPGs are built on RPGs.
Being derived doesn't mean it's a clone. It just means that imitation remains the sincerest form of flattery. This is true in other entertainment media as well. I mean, just look at Hollywood churning out derivative works right and left, regardless of genre.
There is no doubt that the guys at Blizzard looked at what was out there in MMORPGs and decided to come up with one based on their property, the WarCraft universe, and sought to learn from what others had done and came out with a pretty solid property that has indeed been successful. WoW didn't break any new ground as a game, but did break new ground financially.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
So what's the problem? We're dealing with an MMO. A relatively new gaming engine/genre/concept/what-have-you. Just like we're dealing with a bunch of new gamers who have no clue... as well as an internet to hide their age and ignorance. (Of course, grammar and spelling is sometimes a good guage of one's cognative ability...) -
WoW hasn't set the standard that's just it ... the standard was set WAY back in EQ. Infact there are hardly any original ideas in WoW at all, most of it was done before. And if it was an original thought it was mostly just aesthetic for example where you can see how armor is going to look on you.
the reason WoW is so popular is because they dumbed down the game so much that you barely have to put any effort into playing it. As i said before if they made it any easier the game would nearly play itself.
As for WoW being the best? if you want to count subscribers only then yes it is the best. But then again that would make Mcdonalds the best resturant and Titanic one of the best movies ever made. Just because its popular does not make it the best.
Oh and before you say "you havent played it" I have my friend lent me his account to try to convert me and i made it to nearly level 20 in a few hours. I should get a free trial and see what my best time to 60 would be. probably not too long.
ROFL. So what I'm hearing from all of the responses in this thread is the following:
1. Everyone who says anything about anything is an idiot.
2. Goto 1.
The term "WoW Clone" is only used because WoW's success is unprecedented. Whether you like the game or not (personally I don't), the fact is if you aren't playing it, then your game has less subscribers. Period. And since WoW has no peers when it comes to what most game producers care about, which is subscribers (re: moneymoneymoney), then any other game out there that copies game mechanics that WoW happens to have is considered a clone, whether it's levels/talents, combat style, or what-have-you. It doesn't mean it hasn't been done before, it just means nobody's had that level of success with it before.
WOW itself is heavy based on Warhammer cartoon-style of graphics. Ironforge could be considered a total clone of Warhammer style of city and the whole dwarf "feeling" was "stolen" from Warhammer style.
WOW could be called a EQ clone in so many ways and yet no mmorpg can be called a clone from another, every one of them is unique in someway, wether in graphics, gameplay, "feeling" and atmosphere.
I could say i notice Everquest, DAOC and Asheron's call elements in LOTR online, even prior to WOW elements.
Every game borrows ideas from other games and either try to implement them differently or very similarly, but each has its own "feeling" to it and attract a certain type of player.
LOTR was a solid release. I must confess i was bored as hell in the first levels, but then started loving the gameplay and atmosphere.
Even Tolkien borrowed heavy elements of norse mythology in his books, is that a clone?
Noone is free from influences around them, since the day they were born, its only natural that some past ideas come into light in old or new shapes, but its the genious of mixing old and new ideas into a fresh new concept that should be praised.
Not everyone knows how to grab existing stuff and come up with an attractive package, that's becoming increasingly difficult in nowadays with the market being flooded with countless mmorpgs.
A warrior with a sword is a warrior with a sword wether in 8 bit graphics or in thousands of polygons, it's the "juice" of the game that matters.
Ugh, another one of those fantasy topics....in my opinion they are all clones, every single one of them to date. They lack orginality because, well they are all fantasy and based off of 3 works, Lovecraft, Howard or I would hazzard a guess, mostly Tolkien.
Once again, the issue isn't with cloning theme, it's an issue of cloning gameplay, especially in a genre like an MMO, which has near unlimited potential.
So what's the problem? We're dealing with an MMO. A relatively new gaming engine/genre/concept/what-have-you. Just like we're dealing with a bunch of new gamers who have no clue... as well as an internet to hide their age and ignorance. (Of course, grammar and spelling is sometimes a good guage of one's cognative ability...) -
WoW hasn't set the standard that's just it ... the standard was set WAY back in EQ. Infact there are hardly any original ideas in WoW at all, most of it was done before. And if it was an original thought it was mostly just aesthetic for example where you can see how armor is going to look on you.
the reason WoW is so popular is because they dumbed down the game so much that you barely have to put any effort into playing it. As i said before if they made it any easier the game would nearly play itself.
As for WoW being the best? if you want to count subscribers only then yes it is the best. But then again that would make Mcdonalds the best resturant and Titanic one of the best movies ever made. Just because its popular does not make it the best.
Oh and before you say "you havent played it" I have my friend lent me his account to try to convert me and i made it to nearly level 20 in a few hours. I should get a free trial and see what my best time to 60 would be. probably not too long.
I distinctly said WoW took everything already established in MMO's and 'polished' it. Standards are NOT innovations. And don't confuse higher standards with being 'the best'. I hardly say its the best, but they do put a seal of quality on what they do that's above others. Control and interface alone - outside of everything else - is very responsive, crisp and natural feeling. And you can keep going from there.
That's the problem. You people think EVERYONE must Innovate. Innovation doesn't come frequently, kids. But when a video game ups the standard, that means the next MMO's should be at least on PAR with that standard.
I too am sick of people considering games as WoW clones. Does anyone remember Everquest anymore? Wizards, Necromancers, Paladins, and such? Not to mention the races, Elves, Half-elves, Trolls, among others. The character leveling is the same, quest, and fight. Epic weapons, rideable mounts, that were almost impossible to afford. The skill crafts, all were part of the Everquest world, long before WoW was introduced to the MMO genre. Tolkien set the baseline with his Lord of the Rings books, but SOE stepped up and used the basics for EQ. It's just a pity that no one could do that and call it LOTR back when. As far os people calling Shadows of Angmar a WoW clone, it's more of a DDO clone. WoW, as well as many others are just following in the footsteps of the EQ series. Each has it's own gameplay and graphics engines, each has their own style of play, and class of people that play them. But that does not make them a clone. Each respective set of designers and programmers have their own ideas as to haow these games should be done, and they do that, if they take ideas from other games it does not make it a clone, but it could make it a cheap knock-off, depending on how well it's portrayed. As far as any game that can be considered a WoW clone wait til Blizzard comes out with Starcraft Online. Starcraft is basically just a futuristic clone of Warcraft 2, so there it is. I might be rambling, but since everyone else is offering their valuable opinions, I might as well throw my 2 cents in.
I too am sick of people considering games as WoW clones. Does anyone remember Everquest anymore?
Haha, too funny.
"Have you read any of the other posts? Can we stop having these two topics brought up?
1) I'm sick of hearing "WoW clone", those people are stupid. (I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but why not listen to the argument before fuming, it might be different than what you're expecting)
2) WoW is a clone of EQ, and the author didn't mention that."
wow clones? but... if wow is a copy of l2... omg! just because is from blizzard and got a lot of marketing its not the first, and, it have no the first ideas. Think that the developers said that they were looking at the mmorpg and trying to get the best of all in wow... so, just a mix, nothing new, ok yes, something new, is from blizzard and got LOTS of marketing, it reaches people that never heared about mmorpg... So before you say "wow clone", you must say, "l2 clone" "everquest clone" "ultima online clone"... lot of games that bring more new ideas that were taken, later, by wow...
Ugh, another one of those fantasy topics....in my opinion they are all clones, every single one of them to date. They lack orginality because, well they are all fantasy and based off of 3 works, Lovecraft, Howard or I would hazzard a guess, mostly Tolkien. We need Sci-Fi! Not fantasy!
You're a shinning example of why this site has just become a hate bashing site. By the way did you know that those three authors have taken myths and stories from dead religions and made stories into them. Lovecraft? Got it from Sumerian texts. Tolkien? Norse, Celtic, and Irish. In the end every game has cloned something from another game. Including Sci-fi.
lmao obviously blizzard doesnt care if they did copy other games b/c obviously their more succesful and did a better job than the games they copied from... i think WoW kicks every other MMOs ass untile AoC but thats just my opinion and i think alot of other people will agree with me.
Ugh, another one of those fantasy topics....in my opinion they are all clones, every single one of them to date. They lack orginality because, well they are all fantasy and based off of 3 works, Lovecraft, Howard or I would hazzard a guess, mostly Tolkien. We need Sci-Fi! Not fantasy!
You're a shinning example of why this site has just become a hate bashing site. By the way did you know that those three authors have taken myths and stories from dead religions and made stories into them. Lovecraft? Got it from Sumerian texts. Tolkien? Norse, Celtic, and Irish. In the end every game has cloned something from another game. Including Sci-fi.
Haha, Hate bashing? Wow, just wow that's hillarious. Not sure where that one came from.
Yes, by the way I did know that those authors took all of their work from mythos, Thus his title. Yes was aware of the Sumerian texts, as well as most of the Norse Celt and Gaelic myths. It was one of my favorite subjects, it doesn't change the facts though. Again, near all of their works are clones as well, not much in orginality, sure they gave everything their own twists but still clones upon clones upon clones.
All Fantasy.
And 85% of all the mmorpg games out are fantasy. I will not disagree that sci-fi has borrowed 'game mechanics" from those various genres as well, that was their mistake I think, but again my opinion. A total seperation in game theory and mechanics needs to be made from fantasy.
Something more original, as should be the case in sci-fi, fantasy has just been so overdone I personally feel its nearly impossilblle to not clone something.
So... what can we look forward to on the gaming horizon? Only time will tell, but it's fun to think about:
Warhammer Online - There is a huge fan base and a lot of anticipation; but given that all the pre-release stuff we've seen looks a lot like the graphical style of WoW (and developers have even claimed that the combat system will be a lot like WoW), it's unlikely that Warhammer Online will escape clone criticism.
Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures - Like Lord of the Rings, the Robert E. Howard source material is there, and some interesting things are being done with single-player and PvP mechanics... but the fan base might be hard to reach unless there's a sudden revival of Schwarzenegger's movie.
Pirates of the Burning Sea & Tabula Rasa - Both escape the fantasy genre and potentially have a lot of fans to attract based on the pirate fan base and on the sci-fi fan base; but Pirates just might be labeled as "WoW in a Boat."
So basically the one game that shys away from the WoW clone stigma out of the ones mentioned is Tabula Rasa of course Richard Garriot always was more of a game innovator not a follower.
I'm getting so sick of hearing this "WoW Clone" rubbish, like Blizzard have a original bone in their bodies. Blizzard do ONE thing well, they make polished products. THAT'S it. Lore, gameplay, they rip off. Comments like "given that all the pre-release stuff we've seen looks a lot like the graphical style of WoW" in reference to WAR are getting annoying. Warcraft is a massive Warhammer off and they owe all of their style to Games Workshop, and despite this being said over and over again we still see comments like the one above. What do you want Warhammer to look like? Pacman? Games Workshop, a company that took Tolkien lore (and some others) and made something very unique and their own. Blizzard, a company that took Games Workshop lore and ripped off Dune 3 game play and it's really not changed much since. As good as it was for me up to level 40, I really do think WoW has killed MMORPGs, in more ways than one.
If any of these lame arguments about who was first were actually valid, I could just say every author is just a clone of the first caveman that decided to write on the walls of his cave. But the whole argument isn't valid.
WoW is an amazing game. The only reason so many of us interwebs nerds hate it is because it is popular. If LoTR:Online had sold 20-something million (or whatever) copies, you would all completely hate that game, too. Deny that all you want, because your silly forum rantings aren't affecting Blizzard's success in the least bit. The fact is WoW is a refined version of all MMORPGs that came before it. It does everything that those games did, and it does them better.
I mean, read these forums. I would guess that probably 95-99% of the posts on these forums are all bashes. Nobody has anything nice to say about any game that is even somewhat mainstream.
Quote this all you want, I probably won't see your replies. I'll be too busy being excited about new MMO games instead of looking for games to bash.
Edit: Not sure what we mean by WoW being 90% marketing, a few posts up. The game was out for more than a year before I ever saw an advert. WoW was spread by word of mouth because it was a superior game, not because of marketing.
ok wait, this article starts with, "In a recent article from 1up.com, EVE Online CEO Hilmar Petursson askedwhy so many Massively Multi-player Online Games copy World of Warcraft - as if developers do it on purpose.
"...World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this [genre]," says Petursson, referring specifically to fantasy MMORPGs. "It's been done. Do something else."".
maybe he prefers that games should copy eve, and have devs/staff playing on super accounts (instead of normal accounts like all other game require), and they reveal to other players who they are (again, other companies fire employees for doing this), and the plethora of documented cheating that the eve people do?
documented, as in, ADMITTED TO, by the various people who work for eve, both paid and volunteer.
yeah, i'm sorry, this entire article lost me, right there. actually,. not only from that aspect, but from the "perfect implementation" standpoint as well. why doesn't eve make itself appeal to a wider audience? why doesn't eve dummy itself down to the point that 10 year olds flock to it, the fps kiddies give it a whirl, etc? hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to this team of douches eh? so if wow is so perfect, why isn't eve doing something a hell of a lot more perfect, game-wise?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
If any of these lame arguments about who was first were actually valid, I could just say every author is just a clone of the first caveman that decided to write on the walls of his cave. But the whole argument isn't valid. WoW is an amazing game. The only reason so many of us interwebs nerds hate it is because it is popular. If LoTR:Online had sold 20-something million (or whatever) copies, you would all completely hate that game, too. Deny that all you want, because your silly forum rantings aren't affecting Blizzard's success in the least bit. The fact is WoW is a refined version of all MMORPGs that came before it. It does everything that those games did, and it does them better. I mean, read these forums. I would guess that probably 95-99% of the posts on these forums are all bashes. Nobody has anything nice to say about any game that is even somewhat mainstream. Quote this all you want, I probably won't see your replies. I'll be too busy being excited about new MMO games instead of looking for games to bash. Edit: Not sure what we mean by WoW being 90% marketing, a few posts up. The game was out for more than a year before I ever saw an advert. WoW was spread by word of mouth because it was a superior game, not because of marketing.
maybe you're a nerd and you hate it because it's popular. that's fine and dandy.
i hate it because it's boring as hell. please, give me another game where my goal is to farm something that takes one hell of a long time TO farm, and i have to farm it because everyone needs tons of crap from it and you only get a couple of pieces at a time. BORING. raiding was boring and stupid when eq introduced it. oh look, now the crap is instanced and EVERYONE can waste their time doing the EXACT same crap 100 times, then you can move to the next instance and do it 100 times, only this time, instead of only 40 person raids, you have a lot of 25, 10, and 5 man things to do ad nauseum.
don't remember doing crap like that in any game that i've ENJOYED playing. plus the endless faction grinds. for the love of god, i'm not going to kill 5,000,000 of your enemy so you can give me access to one stinking recipe. i might as well go raiding and get a far superior item in 1/5th of the time.
people that played eq and could/would fight a boss for 10-14 hours straight, definitely have issues with life, as in, the real world. but, you can say, they were dedicated. nope, it's called addiction. addiction = weakness. so in reality, all those dedicated types, are actually weakminded losers. but hey, that's on them. i'd rather spend time with the wife and family, than ignore them for the entire weekend to play ANY game (i.e. this recent double xp weekend on COX, where some people decided to try and level from 1-50 by doing nothing other than playing the game).
so, you go ahead and be a nerd and hate something because it's popular. that's the same sort of reasoning racists use i bet. "hey, it's different than me, let's hate it." me, there are far better reasons to hate a game than popularity and far better reasons to like/dislike an individual than the color of their skin.
but, i tried to like wow. devs lied about pvp and epic classes from the start. then changed their focus to that raiding trash for the longest time. i like to show them the same love (or lack thereof) they've shown me these years.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
It has nothing to do with clones, and everything with the changed communities on the Internet. Every released game suffers from the "When game X is released this game is going to die" comments. Some games even get bashed before they even released a beta. Blizzard has increased the MMO market and with it the ammount of people with an opinion. Problem is, players keep on bashing games they never played or quit playing. Just look at this site or Silky Venom, 95% is about bashing (which is really sad). And THATS the problem not the 'wow clone' syndrome!
QFT!
Exactly! It's not the "WoW clone" problem... it's the people in the community who bash any game they don't like.. regardless if they play it or not. The excuse is always the same... "WoW clone". Even when the game doesn't even remotely resemble WoW, it's still compared to it.
The community is the problem.. not the genre.
ROFL!!
I only made it a few comments into this thread before I gave up. It's nice to hear people noticing that most comments about games tend to be bashings, but to top it off, this thread is bashing the bashers. I hate to coin this particular phrase here but... "When will it end?"
LOL It gives me visions of that arcade game where you have to mash the gopher heads as fast as they pop up. Only in this version, after a couple of rounds of bashing gopher heads, one gopher jumps up, grabs the hammer and throws YOU into his hole! Now it's his turn to bash! Couple rounds later another gopher jumps out and...
Comments
The only thing WoW did right was the leveling that was not the same long drawn out process it's predecessors was which attracted new people to the MMOG market. But the end game failed with "Raiding" being the end game as in most MMOG. Also it's downfall like all other games is the "Required Class / Spec".
A lot of what people are looking for is a break out from the forced groups and raiding at end game, because most people usually start playing with one or 2 other people and not large groups that can easily fill in raids.
Also another downfall to most games is the whole "Tank / DPS / Healer" "Class / Specs"(Simple Skill Tree [only way most games have any kind of way to customize the character class])
I think a lot of this could be solved by changing the way the leveling systems works where you reduce the leveling curve and add alot more levels(1000 maybe more) that would give you point(s) to spend on a Skill Tree and let people customize the character from the start. Respeccing shouldn't be easy but at the same time you shouldn't lost all the effort you put in to leveling up, meaning something like at high levels you would lose say maybe one level for every 50 - 60 points you want to respec and at the same time as a way to prevent people respeccing all the time make it so there is a cool down between removing points example you go to a NPC in a city and they remove 1 - 5 points every 30 seconds to 2 minutes.
Also PvE Death should not be free but at the same time no wants to play a game where you lost xp from death, Time to get back and Repair costs should be enough for death.
With PvP none of this Instances or Flags that can be turned on and off anywhere. PvP need to take place in a large open area where you can capture places and get bonuses for doing it but at the same time make it some one (Guild / Clan) can't capture the whole PvP area. Also with the PvP Flag make it so can be changed but only in a city as long as you haven't been griefing(there are lots of systems out there for that).
Almost everything in a game should be crafted but has lower quality versions that drop or are sold in shops, some of the high end rare stuff should be rare drops that are used to craft items, also recipes should be only obtained by reverse engineering an item and most of the crafting material can be found in shops.
Also Mounts(Creature) / Transportation(Mechanical) should be a open to all levels and not just an endgame item. Mounts / Transportation should be sold for high prices, but with skills some player should be able to tram and train mounts and resell them , and also for Transportation it should be crafted like other game items.
So far most of the MMOG's come out fantasy based I personally would like to see somemore Sci-Fi or Cyberpunk which are not so niche market or IP based and that is more FPS based(Doesn't need to be true FPS as long as it has the feel of personal skill over random dice rolling that most MMOG's have) with a Good PvP, PvE, Player Trade, Crafting and Leveling all-in-one.
*Edit*
Alot of the success of MMOG is the fact of the death of Multi-Player CO-OP games for PC most of the people that grow up playing Multi-Player CO-OP games for the PC don't like the control system of the console based games.
1) I'm sick of hearing "WoW clone", those people are stupid. (I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but why not listen to the argument before fuming, it might be different than what you're expecting)
2) WoW is a clone of EQ, and the author didn't mention that.
The author did in fact mention that:
"The funny thing about WoW clone syndrome is that it used to be "EverQuest" clone syndrome. And before that, EverQuest copied mechanics and ideas from its predecessors in multi-user dungeons (MUDs), which in turn evolved from single-player computer RPGs that originated in pen-and-paper RPGs (like Warhammer and Dungeons & Dragons), which were all based off of... Tolkien - and other classic fantasy writers."
So no, it didn't "completely" escape the author. As I said, this article I think isn't so much singling out WoW as just saying that as long as this trend of MMOs not innovating in gameplay continues, they will be compared to the latest MMO that has done it best.
Yeah...? If the MMO's story is garbage - what are MMO's about?
Charater development. Look cool and beating the crab out of stuff. In MMO's - you beat the crap out of stuff way too much. So it usually boils down to being content with your character.
Or PvP. And honestly? Most MMO-based PvP is for complete idiots. If I have this UNSATIABLE URGE TO MURDER MAIM KILL AND PWNT N00BS AND FLEX MY ENORMOUS AWESOMENESS ON THE INTARWEBS!...... I go play a FPS like Battlefield or something. Where even a kit-less new player can eradicated some idiot who's been grinding the game for months.
If you grind for PvP and bragging rights - you're a sociopath.
D&D was derived from Tolkien. RPGs are derived from D&D. MMORPGs are built on RPGs.
Being derived doesn't mean it's a clone. It just means that imitation remains the sincerest form of flattery. This is true in other entertainment media as well. I mean, just look at Hollywood churning out derivative works right and left, regardless of genre.
There is no doubt that the guys at Blizzard looked at what was out there in MMORPGs and decided to come up with one based on their property, the WarCraft universe, and sought to learn from what others had done and came out with a pretty solid property that has indeed been successful. WoW didn't break any new ground as a game, but did break new ground financially.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
WoW hasn't set the standard that's just it ... the standard was set WAY back in EQ. Infact there are hardly any original ideas in WoW at all, most of it was done before. And if it was an original thought it was mostly just aesthetic for example where you can see how armor is going to look on you.
the reason WoW is so popular is because they dumbed down the game so much that you barely have to put any effort into playing it. As i said before if they made it any easier the game would nearly play itself.
As for WoW being the best? if you want to count subscribers only then yes it is the best. But then again that would make Mcdonalds the best resturant and Titanic one of the best movies ever made. Just because its popular does not make it the best.
Oh and before you say "you havent played it" I have my friend lent me his account to try to convert me and i made it to nearly level 20 in a few hours. I should get a free trial and see what my best time to 60 would be. probably not too long.
1. Everyone who says anything about anything is an idiot.
2. Goto 1.
The term "WoW Clone" is only used because WoW's success is unprecedented. Whether you like the game or not (personally I don't), the fact is if you aren't playing it, then your game has less subscribers. Period. And since WoW has no peers when it comes to what most game producers care about, which is subscribers (re: moneymoneymoney), then any other game out there that copies game mechanics that WoW happens to have is considered a clone, whether it's levels/talents, combat style, or what-have-you. It doesn't mean it hasn't been done before, it just means nobody's had that level of success with it before.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
WOW could be called a EQ clone in so many ways and yet no mmorpg can be called a clone from another, every one of them is unique in someway, wether in graphics, gameplay, "feeling" and atmosphere.
I could say i notice Everquest, DAOC and Asheron's call elements in LOTR online, even prior to WOW elements.
Every game borrows ideas from other games and either try to implement them differently or very similarly, but each has its own "feeling" to it and attract a certain type of player.
LOTR was a solid release. I must confess i was bored as hell in the first levels, but then started loving the gameplay and atmosphere.
Even Tolkien borrowed heavy elements of norse mythology in his books, is that a clone?
Noone is free from influences around them, since the day they were born, its only natural that some past ideas come into light in old or new shapes, but its the genious of mixing old and new ideas into a fresh new concept that should be praised.
Not everyone knows how to grab existing stuff and come up with an attractive package, that's becoming increasingly difficult in nowadays with the market being flooded with countless mmorpgs.
A warrior with a sword is a warrior with a sword wether in 8 bit graphics or in thousands of polygons, it's the "juice" of the game that matters.
Ugh, another one of those fantasy topics....in my opinion they are all clones, every single one of them to date. They lack orginality because, well they are all fantasy and based off of 3 works, Lovecraft, Howard or I would hazzard a guess, mostly Tolkien.
We need Sci-Fi! Not fantasy!
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
WoW hasn't set the standard that's just it ... the standard was set WAY back in EQ. Infact there are hardly any original ideas in WoW at all, most of it was done before. And if it was an original thought it was mostly just aesthetic for example where you can see how armor is going to look on you.
the reason WoW is so popular is because they dumbed down the game so much that you barely have to put any effort into playing it. As i said before if they made it any easier the game would nearly play itself.
As for WoW being the best? if you want to count subscribers only then yes it is the best. But then again that would make Mcdonalds the best resturant and Titanic one of the best movies ever made. Just because its popular does not make it the best.
Oh and before you say "you havent played it" I have my friend lent me his account to try to convert me and i made it to nearly level 20 in a few hours. I should get a free trial and see what my best time to 60 would be. probably not too long.
I distinctly said WoW took everything already established in MMO's and 'polished' it. Standards are NOT innovations. And don't confuse higher standards with being 'the best'. I hardly say its the best, but they do put a seal of quality on what they do that's above others. Control and interface alone - outside of everything else - is very responsive, crisp and natural feeling. And you can keep going from there.
That's the problem. You people think EVERYONE must Innovate. Innovation doesn't come frequently, kids. But when a video game ups the standard, that means the next MMO's should be at least on PAR with that standard.
"Have you read any of the other posts? Can we stop having these two topics brought up?
1) I'm sick of hearing "WoW clone", those people are stupid. (I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but why not listen to the argument before fuming, it might be different than what you're expecting)
2) WoW is a clone of EQ, and the author didn't mention that."
wow clones? but... if wow is a copy of l2... omg! just because is from blizzard and got a lot of marketing its not the first, and, it have no the first ideas. Think that the developers said that they were looking at the mmorpg and trying to get the best of all in wow... so, just a mix, nothing new, ok yes, something new, is from blizzard and got LOTS of marketing, it reaches people that never heared about mmorpg... So before you say "wow clone", you must say, "l2 clone" "everquest clone" "ultima online clone"... lot of games that bring more new ideas that were taken, later, by wow...
90% marketing + 10% Gaming = WoW
Haha, Hate bashing? Wow, just wow that's hillarious. Not sure where that one came from.
Yes, by the way I did know that those authors took all of their work from mythos, Thus his title. Yes was aware of the Sumerian texts, as well as most of the Norse Celt and Gaelic myths. It was one of my favorite subjects, it doesn't change the facts though. Again, near all of their works are clones as well, not much in orginality, sure they gave everything their own twists but still clones upon clones upon clones.
All Fantasy.
And 85% of all the mmorpg games out are fantasy. I will not disagree that sci-fi has borrowed 'game mechanics" from those various genres as well, that was their mistake I think, but again my opinion. A total seperation in game theory and mechanics needs to be made from fantasy.
Something more original, as should be the case in sci-fi, fantasy has just been so overdone I personally feel its nearly impossilblle to not clone something.
http://www.forceofarms.com/index.php
It has gotten so bad that I have even seen EQ1 referred to as "a WOW clone".
Uhm.. duh, what universe etc??
So... what can we look forward to on the gaming horizon? Only time will tell, but it's fun to think about:
Warhammer Online - There is a huge fan base and a lot of anticipation; but given that all the pre-release stuff we've seen looks a lot like the graphical style of WoW (and developers have even claimed that the combat system will be a lot like WoW), it's unlikely that Warhammer Online will escape clone criticism.
Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures - Like Lord of the Rings, the Robert E. Howard source material is there, and some interesting things are being done with single-player and PvP mechanics... but the fan base might be hard to reach unless there's a sudden revival of Schwarzenegger's movie.
Pirates of the Burning Sea & Tabula Rasa - Both escape the fantasy genre and potentially have a lot of fans to attract based on the pirate fan base and on the sci-fi fan base; but Pirates just might be labeled as "WoW in a Boat."
So basically the one game that shys away from the WoW clone stigma out of the ones mentioned is Tabula Rasa of course Richard Garriot always was more of a game innovator not a follower.
-zensaber
If any of these lame arguments about who was first were actually valid, I could just say every author is just a clone of the first caveman that decided to write on the walls of his cave. But the whole argument isn't valid.
WoW is an amazing game. The only reason so many of us interwebs nerds hate it is because it is popular. If LoTR:Online had sold 20-something million (or whatever) copies, you would all completely hate that game, too. Deny that all you want, because your silly forum rantings aren't affecting Blizzard's success in the least bit. The fact is WoW is a refined version of all MMORPGs that came before it. It does everything that those games did, and it does them better.
I mean, read these forums. I would guess that probably 95-99% of the posts on these forums are all bashes. Nobody has anything nice to say about any game that is even somewhat mainstream.
Quote this all you want, I probably won't see your replies. I'll be too busy being excited about new MMO games instead of looking for games to bash.
Edit: Not sure what we mean by WoW being 90% marketing, a few posts up. The game was out for more than a year before I ever saw an advert. WoW was spread by word of mouth because it was a superior game, not because of marketing.
"...World of Warcraft is the perfect implementation of this [genre]," says Petursson, referring specifically to fantasy MMORPGs. "It's been done. Do something else."".
maybe he prefers that games should copy eve, and have devs/staff playing on super accounts (instead of normal accounts like all other game require), and they reveal to other players who they are (again, other companies fire employees for doing this), and the plethora of documented cheating that the eve people do?
documented, as in, ADMITTED TO, by the various people who work for eve, both paid and volunteer.
yeah, i'm sorry, this entire article lost me, right there. actually,. not only from that aspect, but from the "perfect implementation" standpoint as well. why doesn't eve make itself appeal to a wider audience? why doesn't eve dummy itself down to the point that 10 year olds flock to it, the fps kiddies give it a whirl, etc? hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to this team of douches eh? so if wow is so perfect, why isn't eve doing something a hell of a lot more perfect, game-wise?
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
i hate it because it's boring as hell. please, give me another game where my goal is to farm something that takes one hell of a long time TO farm, and i have to farm it because everyone needs tons of crap from it and you only get a couple of pieces at a time. BORING. raiding was boring and stupid when eq introduced it. oh look, now the crap is instanced and EVERYONE can waste their time doing the EXACT same crap 100 times, then you can move to the next instance and do it 100 times, only this time, instead of only 40 person raids, you have a lot of 25, 10, and 5 man things to do ad nauseum.
don't remember doing crap like that in any game that i've ENJOYED playing. plus the endless faction grinds. for the love of god, i'm not going to kill 5,000,000 of your enemy so you can give me access to one stinking recipe. i might as well go raiding and get a far superior item in 1/5th of the time.
people that played eq and could/would fight a boss for 10-14 hours straight, definitely have issues with life, as in, the real world. but, you can say, they were dedicated. nope, it's called addiction. addiction = weakness. so in reality, all those dedicated types, are actually weakminded losers. but hey, that's on them. i'd rather spend time with the wife and family, than ignore them for the entire weekend to play ANY game (i.e. this recent double xp weekend on COX, where some people decided to try and level from 1-50 by doing nothing other than playing the game).
so, you go ahead and be a nerd and hate something because it's popular. that's the same sort of reasoning racists use i bet. "hey, it's different than me, let's hate it." me, there are far better reasons to hate a game than popularity and far better reasons to like/dislike an individual than the color of their skin.
but, i tried to like wow. devs lied about pvp and epic classes from the start. then changed their focus to that raiding trash for the longest time. i like to show them the same love (or lack thereof) they've shown me these years.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
QFT!
Exactly! It's not the "WoW clone" problem... it's the people in the community who bash any game they don't like.. regardless if they play it or not. The excuse is always the same... "WoW clone". Even when the game doesn't even remotely resemble WoW, it's still compared to it.
The community is the problem.. not the genre.
I only made it a few comments into this thread before I gave up. It's nice to hear people noticing that most comments about games tend to be bashings, but to top it off, this thread is bashing the bashers. I hate to coin this particular phrase here but... "When will it end?"
LOL It gives me visions of that arcade game where you have to mash the gopher heads as fast as they pop up. Only in this version, after a couple of rounds of bashing gopher heads, one gopher jumps up, grabs the hammer and throws YOU into his hole! Now it's his turn to bash! Couple rounds later another gopher jumps out and...
-Naaz.