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Food For Thought
Nikoz78
Member UncommonPosts: 910
Microsoft hired Brad to create a "WoW killer."
WoW cost 80 million dollars to produce the original game.
Brad was creating his MMORPG with Microsoft's backing ($$).
Then 30 million into the project MS pulls the plug (management change).
Brad designed and started building this game with a 100 million dollar budget in mind.
When the plug was pulled only the basic foundation of the game was completed (and that is what cost the 30 million).
So now Brad and team have to turn an unfinished product into a playable game.
30 million is nothing when your stated purpose is to take on Blizzard's cash cow.
That means Vanguard was only roughly 30% complete when the plug got pulled.
Sure, some of the world (or 'shell') was there but not the meat of the game.
The scope of the game was huge. Thats the road they set out on.
Considering MS pulled the plug so early in the production phase, Sigil did a decent job of turning what they had finished into a playable game.
BTW, I don't play Vanguard anymore. Just some thoughts.
WoW cost 80 million dollars to produce the original game.
Brad was creating his MMORPG with Microsoft's backing ($$).
Then 30 million into the project MS pulls the plug (management change).
Brad designed and started building this game with a 100 million dollar budget in mind.
When the plug was pulled only the basic foundation of the game was completed (and that is what cost the 30 million).
So now Brad and team have to turn an unfinished product into a playable game.
30 million is nothing when your stated purpose is to take on Blizzard's cash cow.
That means Vanguard was only roughly 30% complete when the plug got pulled.
Sure, some of the world (or 'shell') was there but not the meat of the game.
The scope of the game was huge. Thats the road they set out on.
Considering MS pulled the plug so early in the production phase, Sigil did a decent job of turning what they had finished into a playable game.
BTW, I don't play Vanguard anymore. Just some thoughts.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Comments
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
As for the money, no amount of development money could have made Vanguard a WoW Killer or even one of the Top MMO's on the market. The Team was obviously in over there head and Sigil leadership was clueless and inept to put it politely.
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Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
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Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
Brad said as much in that f13 interview ( that MS wanted a 'WoW killer' ).
WoW came out how long ago? 2004. That was years ago.
Vanguard's scope was huge from conception. 30 million is nothing in as far as a MMO budget goes.
We are talking movie sized budgets now.
WoW came out in 2004, quickly dominated the market and cost a lot of money.
To compete now in 2007, it's going to take a hell of a lot more than 30 million to get it done.
Not arguing, I'm just not emotional about it the issue.
I don't hate Brad, et al.
Nor do I play his latest game... because... it's boring.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
I dont think the game is even finished 30%. More like 20% or even less. I rolled a shaman at release and later a disciple on Florendyl. Up to level 18ish V:SoH is one of the best games out there.
Ok. Tell us how much was spent on Vanguards development at the time of WoW being released, and how much was spent at the time of WoW success was visible.
How big was the Sigil Team at that time.
It was not 30 million $ spent at that time.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
WoW had probably spent around 65 mil or so at the time Sigil was founded. I think Sigil's team was what, 100+ folks? (Feel free to correct me) As noted in interviews on f13, they recruited people through word of mouth (whether it was wives, friends, girlfriends, etc) to meet growing labor demands... so I'll go ahead and throw a random number out there. Let's go with 42 people.
Oh, and Vanguard was only about 40% done after 5 years and 30 million... so they'd need around 12 years and $100 million to have made a functional, competitive product.
Again, all those numbers are total guesses and deductions going off of timelines and interviews, and some of them came straight out of thin air, so they're probably not right. But still, the point is, it didn't take WoW 12 years or $100 million dollars to make a great game. As a result, my sympathies are extremely limited for Sigil and co.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
WoW had probably spent around 65 mil or so at the time Sigil was founded. I think Sigil's team was what, 100+ folks? (Feel free to correct me) As noted in interviews on f13, they recruited people through word of mouth (whether it was wives, friends, girlfriends, etc) to meet growing labor demands... so I'll go ahead and throw a random number out there. Let's go with 42 people.
Oh, and Vanguard was only about 40% done after 5 years and 30 million... so they'd need around 12 years and $100 million to have made a functional, competitive product.
Again, all those numbers are total guesses and deductions going off of timelines and interviews, and some of them came straight out of thin air, so they're probably not right. But still, the point is, it didn't take WoW 12 years or $100 million dollars to make a great game. As a result, my sympathies are extremely limited for Sigil and co.
Is that a typo. If not then there is nikos point and the plan for Sigil was from start according to that.
12 years, ok of the plan was static with doing 8% of the game every year. That was a cheap argument. And thus recognizing that 30% was true, let it be true for your sake of argument. That is not really a valid argument to say that nikoz thougth is not valid.
The question is still.
Was Sigil having 100 employes at the timeframe of WoW's release, had Sigil spent 15 millions at that time.
That is fair thougth to give, and giving someone a reason of a doubt(?).
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
WoW had probably spent around 65 mil or so at the time Sigil was founded. I think Sigil's team was what, 100+ folks? (Feel free to correct me) As noted in interviews on f13, they recruited people through word of mouth (whether it was wives, friends, girlfriends, etc) to meet growing labor demands... so I'll go ahead and throw a random number out there. Let's go with 42 people.
Oh, and Vanguard was only about 40% done after 5 years and 30 million... so they'd need around 12 years and $100 million to have made a functional, competitive product.
Again, all those numbers are total guesses and deductions going off of timelines and interviews, and some of them came straight out of thin air, so they're probably not right. But still, the point is, it didn't take WoW 12 years or $100 million dollars to make a great game. As a result, my sympathies are extremely limited for Sigil and co.Maybe 6/8 years would be abit more realistic, look at LotrO took them 8+ years to make that game. I stil think its a nice game though i do not play it but seeing the complaint already dropping in repatly again makes me wonder how many gamers will continue to play these games they actualy do not seem to like, like many that bashed Vanguard the first couple of months you see them now doing the same thing at the lotrO forums (and sections here) which abviously shows many people really don't want a mmorpg, atleast not those with the loudest voices that seem to be able to bash and be unrealstic about these type of game, just like those saying well Vanguard is Nichy as they fail to see this whole mmorpg genre is still nichy, when this change money for development will change, WOW made a tiny path opening doors to more but still it all remains nichy untill the larger population of gamers will become mmo players.
yes and no. Here is a little example of a quality mmo game that is able to keep its players for only one year. And in my opinion one year is not much for a quality mmo.
250.000 sold boxes = 12.5 million euro
250.000 subs over 12 month = 45.0 million euro
-------------------------------------------------
total = 57.5 million euro
Thats quite some money and not very nichy. Given that a big and smart company allready has an engine and developer tools this sounds like the licence to print money to me. A lot is about engine and tools. Why is it, that Blizzard is the only company who releases windows and macintosh clients at the same time ? Probably because they have the tools to compile them. Why does Simultronics care so much about their HERO engine ? Why did nevrax work on engine and content tools, even when facing bancrupcy ?
No they didn't. They hired him to make another EverQuest, since that was the big kahuna in the MMO world at the time, and he was the Golden Boy of the genre. WoW wasn't even a blip on the radar when Sigil started working on Vanguard.
True.
Also true.
Also true. But not unusual. Many companies will pull the plug on projects, even millions of dollars in, if it's not up to their standards, or if it doesn't look profitable, or ready for the market.
For an example of this, please see Blizzard. They pulled the plug on Starcraft Ghost more than four years into its development cycle, even though most of it was complete.
Source? I've never seen this stated anywhere.
That's his problem, not Microsoft's. If he'd had any sense of project management, and if he'd had an actual plan for the game instead of stringing Microsoft along for years on end, then Vanguard would be in much better shape now.
As far as I can tell, Brad's no longer there. It's now up to SOE to take the wreckage of a game that Brad came up with and try to turn it into a stable, playable game that will attract customers.
Except that when they started, WoW wasn't even a factor. It took everyone by surprise more than two years into VG's development cycle.
If the game was only 30% complete after five years and $30 million, then that's a pretty sad commentary on Brad's ability to adequately plan and manage a large-scale game.
Again, that's no one else's problem except Brad's. If he'd had a real plan, and had actually tried to stick with it, the game would have been released in much better shape.
True. They overhsot by a considerable margin, to their detriment.
"Early"? They had over four years at Microsoft to come up with something. That's not early. That's more than enough time to show real progress.
All of this is just rationalization for the failures of management and project planning at Sigil. They had the time, and they had the backing of Microsoft. If they'd been making a real effort at this game, MS would have kept funding them and SOE would never have entered the picture at all.
First off, we know about Brad 2 crucial things : 1. He never played WoW 2. He believed WoW would make little impact on the gaming world (said so himself). I am not here to say how wrong he was in his arrogance, cause we all know that by now.
Furthermore we know that before an MMO even starts getting funded, the whole mechanic of the game ... etc has to be envisioned, and down on paper. They were already way way in development, when WoW came about and stunned everyone, so putting these three informations together, it's obvious there was never a goal to become a WoW killer.
So now we have two choices : believe Brad was mentally ill, and thought he could make a wow killer more than halfway in development(I know M$ wasn't so dumb as to think that, I know people who work there an they are pragmatic), OR Brad LIED, that M$ was putting pressure on him to create a WoW-killer (which everyone know is next to impossible atm) just so his stature could be more sympathetic.
Once again I ask, do not be a fool, read in between the lines, see the lies. Brad may be a bad CEO, but he still has 30 more IQ than most residents of mmorpg.com, so pay attention to what he says, and analyze it ffs!
VG was never intended to be a WoW-killer!
yes and no. Here is a little example of a quality mmo game that is able to keep its players for only one year. And in my opinion one year is not much for a quality mmo.
250.000 sold boxes = 12.5 million euro
250.000 subs over 12 month = 45.0 million euro
-------------------------------------------------
total = 57.5 million euro
Thats quite some money and not very nichy. Given that a big and smart company allready has an engine and developer tools this sounds like the licence to print money to me. A lot is about engine and tools. Why is it, that Blizzard is the only company who releases windows and macintosh clients at the same time ? Probably because they have the tools to compile them. Why does Simultronics care so much about their HERO engine ? Why did nevrax work on engine and content tools, even when facing bancrupcy ?
Agreed that is allot of money...but still nichy
Really that should be given alot of thougth and after one is done thinking.
Think about it again.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Not quite. Turbine didn't even have anything to do with the LOTR game or license until 2003. You're conflating their game with the one that Sierra Online had been working on about a decade ago. They're two different games entirely.
Sierra started working on a Middle Earth MMO in 1998, but they had a lot of financial problems, and ended up having the entire staff that had been working on the game replaced by Vivendi, who is their parent company. After that, development on the game stalled for years on end, and ultimately went nowhere. Sierra has since stopped developing their own games in-house and switched over to just being a publisher.
In 2001, Vivendi got the rights to make video games based on the LOTR books.
In 2003, they announced a deal to make Middle Earth Online with Turbine.
In 2005, Turbine announced they'd bought the rights to make MMO's from Tolkien's books, and assumed Middle Earth Online's publishing rights from Vivendi. They then renamed the game The Lord of the Rings Online.
Late 2006, the game goes into closed beta. April 2007, it launches.
Ultimately, the actual development time that Turbine spent on LOTR Online was just over 4+ years. That's the same amount of time that Sigil had over at Microsoft.
Not quite. Turbine didn't even have anything to do with the LOTR game or license until 2003. You're conflating their game with the one that Sierra Online had been working on about a decade ago. They're two different games entirely.
Sierra started working on a Middle Earth MMO in 1998, but they had a lot of financial problems, and ended up having the entire staff that had been working on the game replaced by Vivendi, who is their parent company. After that, development on the game stalled for years on end, and ultimately went nowhere. Sierra has since stopped developing their own games in-house and switched over to just being a publisher.
In 2001, Vivendi got the rights to make video games based on the LOTR books.
In 2003, they announced a deal to make Middle Earth Online with Turbine.
In 2005, Turbine announced they'd bought the rights to make MMO's from Tolkien's books, and assumed Middle Earth Online's publishing rights from Vivendi. They then renamed the game The Lord of the Rings Online.
Late 2006, the game goes into closed beta. April 2007, it launches.
Ultimately, the actual development time that Turbine spent on LOTR Online was just over 4+ years. That's the same amount of time that Sigil had over at Microsoft.
Ah i was abit misinformed here, thanks for hte info always apriciatedVG went way over budget, slipped its schedule badly, and the only people really to blame is Sigil. MS pulled out when it became obvious they were throwing money down a black hole, which is a common practice in the software industry. Only about 34% of software projects are successful today, and VG wasn't in that bunch.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Alway agreed on that Sigil is the thing what failed exaclty what you said, badly managed there for 30mil was not enought.
30 mil might be more then enough for a well established company, Vanguard was like many already stated incl. myself way over their heads and way to big to be handled by people that seem ( as i do not know all the hard fact mainly whats dripping on the internet) to have a hard time managing Sigil and it employers. But 30 mil might not be enough depending how what sort of resourses woudl be needed, for a established company 30 mil o a re-build engine might do, but to build a new engine might not be enough (not talking about Vanguard made a new engine just common talk as we all know its the UT04
)
Estimated budget for the game is 30 mill? Then simple, build a smaller world alltogether, like 1/3rd or 1/4 th. Always start with game mechanic. They should have kept the game world dense in content, making sure if they add more space, let there be a purpose for that space. The mistakes they made were childish, seems they simply lost scope of their project.
I know I would have played a 1/4th or 1/5rh sized vanguard that actually worked.
30 mill is not little, with 30 mill you can change the world, if you have the business savvy for it
WoW in that case had the advantage since all the gameplay was borrowed by other games, a good example the rogue class which uses the same system as the assasin at diablo 2.
I am not sure vanguard is considered one of the "hard core" ones since it could be argued that WoW at the end you have to play hard core if you want to enjoy anything.
Time will tell
A friend is not him who provides support during your failures.A friend is the one that cheers you during your successes.
Remember, they actually had an entire other continent planned for release but had to save it for an expansion.
The simple fact is, the production funding dried up and the game could not be completed. It's amazing the Sigil team actually took this unfinished product and made it playable.
I miss the good ol' days when nerds were actually intelligent.
Remember, they actually had an entire other continent planned for release but had to save it for an expansion.
The simple fact is, the production funding dried up and the game could not be completed. It's amazing the Sigil team actually took this unfinished product and made it playable.
Well think about it... many people already complain about the emptiness of 3 continents. Do you really think a 4th was even necessary?
In my opinion, Vanguard's content could have been included on one fully polished, fully functional continent. Instead, you have 3 lacking, dysfunctional ones.
Again, you're given a budget to work with before the project begins. You need to do what you can with what you've got, not work towards what could be with what might surface.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...