Myself, I don't bash SOE, they have some decent games, my problem with SOE lies with Smedley. What amazes me with all the horrible decisions he has made at a great cost in revenue to SOE, that he is still there.
I will not touch a SOE product as long as he is at the controls of SOE. I don't have to go into the details, his misadventures litter the internet and a google of his name alone brings up a long list of them.
I do feel for the developers. If they had chosen Microsoft for example the hew and cry would have been just as bad.
It is a shame really, as our corp in Eve had been thinking of moving enmass to Potbs. Just saw a post on our forum this morning nixing the move because of SOE.
Better then expected? Is that why you're doing damage control here?
We planned to be on this forum and many others so we can explain this stuff. That's what we always do -- engage and inform as best we can. If you visit our site, you'll see that our devs are on our forums all the time talking to the community, not just when there's news.
And yeah, it really is better than I expected. For example, a lot more people clearly understand SOE's role in regards to Matrix Online and Vanguard than I thought.
What benefits will SOE provide? All I see is controversy and a lot of lost customers. Certainly some will stay because they do not care about companies like SOE damaging the industry... or people like you rolling over to get your biscuit... but what was the cost? How many subscribers have you lost to this stupid decision?
SOE means our game will be in retail stores across the country and that we can launch simultaneously in North America and Europe. SOE means a very large marketing budget to reach gamers who think playing pirates sounds fun. SOE means we don't have to learn how to do secure credit card processing. SOE means we don't have to sign away ownership of the game and that we keep most of the revenues. That's what they're bringing to the table. Neither going it alone nor any other publisher we talked to could give us all of that.
We've been talking to publishers for three years now. I've gone to meeting after meeting with these folks, flying all over the country. Hands down, SOE had the best offer and has the expertise in distribution and marketing that we needed.
We'll definitely lose some customers this way. But an effective marketing and distribution partner means we should be able to gain many, many more.
I don't expect to convince you that we made the right decision. We've lost you as a customer and that's the way it goes. But I am here explaining this stuff for the benefit of others reading these forums who are interested in our game and want to know what we're up to.
John Tynes Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea Flying Lab Software
I'm looking forward to playing this game. It's great to see the developers communicating with the community as much as FLS has. Thanks for the Q&A!
Oh, you mean like when they were making statements like "looking for a distributor..." while they were actually negotiating with one? They waited until the deal was inked to mention anything, rather than state they were looking into SOE as an option... why do you think that is?
Because that's standard business not to tip your hand to other competitors/potential suitors....? C'mon, you're just trolling here.
It's not hate, it's an expression of free will through the extension of consumerism. There's plenty of competition out there for SOE to pretend like nothing has happened.
Agreed. There are a lot of great games out there. What I've seen of LOTRO has been very good, for example, and I'm curious to see what NetDevil is doing with their relaunch of Jumpgate.
John Tynes Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea Flying Lab Software
We planned to be on this forum and many others so we can explain this stuff. That's what we always do -- engage and inform as best we can. If you visit our site, you'll see that our devs are on our forums all the time talking to the community, not just when there's news. And yeah, it really is better than I expected. For example, a lot more people clearly understand SOE's role in regards to Matrix Online and Vanguard than I thought.
Your forums are filled with locked threads, it seems discussion is taking place... only if you like what is being said.
Originally posted by johntynes
SOE means our game will be in retail stores across the country and that we can launch simultaneously in North America and Europe. SOE means a very large marketing budget to reach gamers who think playing pirates sounds fun. SOE means we don't have to learn how to do secure credit card processing. SOE means we don't have to sign away ownership of the game and that we keep most of the revenues. That's what they're bringing to the table. Neither going it alone nor any other publisher we talked to could give us all of that.
So, you are going with a company with a horrible track record for billing and distribution (check the BBB listings, they are worse than walmart.com) as a solution to billing & distribution?
Originally posted by johntynes
We've been talking to publishers for three years now. I've gone to meeting after meeting with these folks, flying all over the country. Hands down, SOE had the best offer and has the expertise in distribution and marketing that we needed.
They've botched the distribution of their own expansions for EQ2, what makes you think they will do a better job with a competitor's product?
Originally posted by johntynes
I don't expect to convince you that we made the right decision. We've lost you as a customer and that's the way it goes. But I am here explaining this stuff for the benefit of others reading these forums who are interested in our game and want to know what we're up to.
Yep... that is the way it goes. Every bad decision will cost you clients. Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get. SOE's own games are hemoraging players, and there is a growing number of people like me who are so fed up with them that we will never play another SOE title, or title associated with SOE.
If this ends up tanking, and you have to lay people off, remember what you said here... "That's the way it goes."
Your forums are filled with locked threads, it seems discussion is taking place... only if you like what is being said.
I'm sorry, but you're mistaken.
If you look at the locked threads on our forums, you'll see they end with a note like this:
"Please continue to use *this thread* to talk about publishing and distribution, which also includes information and updates about beta."
The "this thread" part is a link to the main discussion thread on this topic, which has more than 800 posts and counting. We're locking threads to prevent sprawl and confusion, not to stifle discussion. We aren't deleting threads or posts, just trying to keep the discussion going in a single, highly visible place with rapid responses from our staff instead of in dozens of little spinoff threads. Charterizing this as censorship is incorrect and unfair -- it's just good forum management.
If anyone wants to see for themselves, please take a look at our General Discussion forum where we're locking threads and directing people to the main thread on the topic. Check out any of the locked threads and you'll see what's really going on:
So, you are going with a company with a horrible track record for billing and distribution (check the BBB listings, they are worse than walmart.com) as a solution to billing & distribution?
SOE has done great work in distribution. As recently as Vanguard, their ability to get boxes on store shelves was outstanding.
Monthly subscription billing for hundreds of thousands of people is not easy and problems happen. I'm sure there are people with horror stories about billing problems in WoW or EVE or any other game we could name. But for the overwhelming majority of SOE subscribers, things work fine. If 75% of all SOE subscribers had horrible billing problems all the time, they'd be out of business, pure and simple.
Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get.
We haven't forgotten that at all, and SOE's "big name" is no bigger than EA or NCsoft or any other major publisher. Signing with a publisher does not equal being star-struck.
We've been very careful on this project to manage our costs. We're a small, independent studio and we have to be cautious about overextending ourselves. We know how many subscribers we need to be profitable, and it's not a big number. We're confident we can hit that number and, with SOE's help, find a lot more players beyond that.
In the end, I am convinced that our success or failure will be due to the quality of our game. Even if SOE does everything insanely great and we sell a million copies, it won't matter a bit if 30 days later most of them cancel their subscription. SOE did a truly great job in marketing and distributing Vanguard, but the quality of the game at launch was the deciding factor in whether people kept playing.
In the end, all SOE does is give us a great chance to be seen by gamers. It's up to us and our game to make the most of it.
John Tynes Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea Flying Lab Software
Originally posted by johntynes We planned to be on this forum and many others so we can explain this stuff. That's what we always do -- engage and inform as best we can. If you visit our site, you'll see that our devs are on our forums all the time talking to the community, not just when there's news. And yeah, it really is better than I expected. For example, a lot more people clearly understand SOE's role in regards to Matrix Online and Vanguard than I thought.
Your forums are filled with locked threads, it seems discussion is taking place... only if you like what is being said.
Originally posted by johntynes
SOE means our game will be in retail stores across the country and that we can launch simultaneously in North America and Europe. SOE means a very large marketing budget to reach gamers who think playing pirates sounds fun. SOE means we don't have to learn how to do secure credit card processing. SOE means we don't have to sign away ownership of the game and that we keep most of the revenues. That's what they're bringing to the table. Neither going it alone nor any other publisher we talked to could give us all of that.
So, you are going with a company with a horrible track record for billing and distribution (check the BBB listings, they are worse than walmart.com) as a solution to billing & distribution?
Originally posted by johntynes
We've been talking to publishers for three years now. I've gone to meeting after meeting with these folks, flying all over the country. Hands down, SOE had the best offer and has the expertise in distribution and marketing that we needed.
They've botched the distribution of their own expansions for EQ2, what makes you think they will do a better job with a competitor's product?
Originally posted by johntynes
I don't expect to convince you that we made the right decision. We've lost you as a customer and that's the way it goes. But I am here explaining this stuff for the benefit of others reading these forums who are interested in our game and want to know what we're up to.
Yep... that is the way it goes. Every bad decision will cost you clients. Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get. SOE's own games are hemoraging players, and there is a growing number of people like me who are so fed up with them that we will never play another SOE title, or title associated with SOE.
If this ends up tanking, and you have to lay people off, remember what you said here... "That's the way it goes."
Dude, you're a piece of work
1.) Threads are locked because unlike mmorpg.com, the community manager and mods know how to consolidate threads. Start looking at them and you'll find links to where active discussion is.
2.) Horrible track record for billing and distribution? 336 complaints in the past 36 months with all of them being resolved.... Now, considering the number of accounts and transactions carried on, that's not a bad reputation, contrary to your belief.
3.) Distribution -- putting boxes on shelves and advertising....
4.) They don't need every subscriber -- As I've said in other threads, there's such a thing as a bad customer and they aren't worth having. Also recognize that companies are aware that their products won't appeal to everyone -- they're not counting on 100% acceptance to survive. They have their target market set and have already account for the SOE boycotters. Their percentage is considered small enough that the gains of partnering with SOE are worth it. Your judgemental attitude automatically makes you and people like you a non-factor and if some of you happen to cross over, then that's a bonus for FLS.
Yep... that is the way it goes. Every bad decision will cost you clients. Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get. SOE's own games are hemoraging players, and there is a growing number of people like me who are so fed up with them that we will never play another SOE title, or title associated with SOE. If this ends up tanking, and you have to lay people off, remember what you said here... "That's the way it goes."
Translated: "blah, blah, blah, I don't like SOE, blah, blah, listen to me so I can feel important, blah, blah, blah"
SOE and POBTS. It's a done deal, like it or not. And the world didn't explode. Imagine that....
Dren, what do you play? I mean seriously, you spend so much time around here waving the SOE suxors flag, how can you actually play any of these independent titles your signature says we should support? You keep saying you are waiting for SoE to make some sort of business decision to improve its image as a indy-killing mega corp.
Then we have here PotBS, being made by a small indy company who could not get the kind of big-box distribution a Major publisher/developer could, so they'd be stuck with Digital download only and would miss a serious part of the market. So what does SoE do? It strikes a deal to allow FLS to retain FULL CONTROL and OWNERSHIP of their INDY game, while giving them the kind of launch that only large publishers/developers could afford. It seems SoE is doing its part to help indy companies get the attention they deserve. What are you doing to help indy companies, besides attacking the one major publisher who seems to agree with your signature "support independent games"?
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
First I would like to say I have played every SOE game.. I for one think SOE ruines everything it touches.. Vangaurd, SWG, EQII, Matrix..well that was bad before sony touched it..
Your second point is not. SOE has a billing system that still charges people after they've cancelled - didn't happen to me in SWG but it did when I left EQ2. "Convenient" mistake - like releasing a game expansion they knew would be obslete in a week's time.
Dren, what do you play? I mean seriously, you spend so much time around here waving the SOE suxors flag, how can you actually play any of these independent titles your signature says we should support? You keep saying you are waiting for SoE to make some sort of business decision to improve its image as a indy-killing mega corp.
Then we have here PotBS, being made by a small indy company who could not get the kind of big-box distribution a Major publisher/developer could, so they'd be stuck with Digital download only and would miss a serious part of the market. So what does SoE do? It strikes a deal to allow FLS to retain FULL CONTROL and OWNERSHIP of their INDY game, while giving them the kind of launch that only large publishers/developers could afford. It seems SoE is doing its part to help indy companies get the attention they deserve. What are you doing to help indy companies, besides attacking the one major publisher who seems to agree with your signature "support independent games"?
Damn Spankybus! Your mail sums it up for me.
I have to agree. I prefer to see SOE publish a game that would otherwise have less coverage, less subs and therefore poorer community due to lack of players. No company is perfect but I really have trouble understanding how SOE get bashed so much. I have had issues with every company ranging from stand alone games through to mmo. Companies make mistakes because they are run by people. I expect every new release to have bugs and performance issues. So when I come across them I just shrug and move on. I judge each game on its raw potential and ongoing development. Otherwise I would never last more than 2 weeks in any new release.
Is there an official release date or have I just missed the post?
Since the deal between SOE and FLS strictly limits Sony to the role of advertiser and distributor i fail to see what the SOE haters have to complain about. Having such limited involvement in the game will limit SOEs share of the profit to a very small percentage.
Most of the money you'd spend on this game would go into the pockets of an indie developer who despite all odds is able to release a kick ass game which finally stands out from the crowd of boring clones offering nothing new.
Despite being a former SWG player myself i will give my money to the folks at FLS for creating this unique and different game which will finally bring me back to playing MMOs and enjoying what i like about them: Giving players the ability to influence that virtual environment, be it either directly through crafting and creating things which are useful to others , through (PvP) combat which actually changes the world map or just by interacting with other players and not be limited to /duel or /spit.
Apparently there's reason for MMORPG to delete all threads which are politely expressing a concern or reason why they are not going to purchase Pirates of the Burning Sea due to Flying Lab's affiliation with SOE.
Very very sad.
The threads deleted were respectful. They were not troling nor flaming.
MMORG.COM has lost all credibility with me and this site is obviously NOT a place to get valid and respectful views and opinions on topics aligned with the theme of this site. (I suppose this indicitive of the inept nature of the mods and admin.)
Release has been delayed until Fall. No more specific than that. Now that the deal is signed for publishing we should see a date settled on in the coming weeks. I wouldn't expect it to release until at least September.
As for the SOE deal for platform publishing PotBS, It was the best alternative and the gains from global market reach will FAR outweigh the losses from SOE haters.
I am SO ANGRY right now. I wanted to buy this game so badly, It looked so awesome. SOE is involved now, no way, no thanks. I have been burned WAY too many times. This is another BOYCOTT SOE post. It might be the best game ever, even with SOE. But i'll never know, cause I just wont play it. Fuck sony, Fuck SOE. I'm out. Hope WAR doesnt get eaten alive.
Who knows how this game game will go, I am still tempted to try it even with SOE publishing it.
One thing to keep in mind though. Smedley is directly responsible for much of the various playerbase problems at SOE in the past and still is at the helm last I looked. If the game is a success, how long will it take Sony to flash money in front of the developers faces? Promises aside, I don't know a developer yet that has not grabbed the money and run at the first opportunity.
My thought is to play the game now and make a decision when such happens. As long as Smedley is in control, SOE cannot be trusted.
I am SO ANGRY right now. I wanted to buy this game so badly, It looked so awesome. SOE is involved now, no way, no thanks. I have been burned WAY too many times. This is another BOYCOTT SOE post. It might be the best game ever, even with SOE. But i'll never know, cause I just wont play it. Fuck sony, Fuck SOE. I'm out. Hope WAR doesnt get eaten alive.
Thank god I ordered a P'zone.
If your hatred for SOE comes from what happened to SWG you really should start to put your blame on Lucas Arts, SOE just did what they were told. So at least give this game a chance when there's an open beta / trial whatever. This devs really deserve some support, even if it means to give $1 a month to SOE, who i'm sure learned their lesson with SWG.
Maybe they'll finally focus on what they do best, publishing games. Making them just isn't their forte.
Dren, what do you play? I mean seriously, you spend so much time around here waving the SOE suxors flag, how can you actually play any of these independent titles your signature says we should support? You keep saying you are waiting for SoE to make some sort of business decision to improve its image as a indy-killing mega corp.
Then we have here PotBS, being made by a small indy company who could not get the kind of big-box distribution a Major publisher/developer could, so they'd be stuck with Digital download only and would miss a serious part of the market. So what does SoE do? It strikes a deal to allow FLS to retain FULL CONTROL and OWNERSHIP of their INDY game, while giving them the kind of launch that only large publishers/developers could afford. It seems SoE is doing its part to help indy companies get the attention they deserve. What are you doing to help indy companies, besides attacking the one major publisher who seems to agree with your signature "support independent games"?
Damn Spankybus! Your mail sums it up for me.
I have to agree. I prefer to see SOE publish a game that would otherwise have less coverage, less subs and therefore poorer community due to lack of players. No company is perfect but I really have trouble understanding how SOE get bashed so much. I have had issues with every company ranging from stand alone games through to mmo. Companies make mistakes because they are run by people. I expect every new release to have bugs and performance issues. So when I come across them I just shrug and move on. I judge each game on its raw potential and ongoing development. Otherwise I would never last more than 2 weeks in any new release.
Is there an official release date or have I just missed the post?
I agree that sure is a great post by SpankyBus.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner Guild:St George Squadron
Are you concerned that the negative feelings that some players have toward SOE will affect the popularity of PotBS?
John Scott Tynes:
The proof is in the pudding. Either our game is great or it sucks, and whatever the reaction, it's our game and we're the ones who made it.
We know there are haters out there. When we made our plan to announce the deal, we told SOE we wanted to do our own announcement directly to our community the night before the press release, so we could explain what we're doing and why we're doing. If anyone reads all of Rusty's devlog on the subject ... and still has nothing to say but "SOE SUXORS U LOSE" then like Mister T, I can only pity the fool.
Are you concerned that the negative feelings that some players have toward SOE will affect the popularity of PotBS?
John Scott Tynes:
The proof is in the pudding. Either our game is great or it sucks, and whatever the reaction, it's our game and we're the ones who made it. We know there are haters out there. When we made our plan to announce the deal, we told SOE we wanted to do our own announcement directly to our community the night before the press release, so we could explain what we're doing and why we're doing. If anyone reads all of Rusty's devlog on the subject ... and still has nothing to say but "SOE SUXORS U LOSE" then like Mister T, I can only pity the fool.
There's a difference between being smart and being stubborn. If SOE can put out a good game, I'll play it regardless of their past games. Games are about having fun and being entertained. If they can do that, I couldn't care less about the company's history. When / if their games stop being fun or entertaining, I'll simply move on to a new game.
The fact that you don't care about the company's history is an example of why companies can get away with horrible business practices. People are too complacent, and will overlook the bad so they can get self gratification. It's sad, really... not that you care.
Originally posted by Deathstrike2 Getting obsessively upset and holding a grudge against a company because they changed a game in a way that you didn't like is just childish. MMOs change. That's what they do, and that's why they're so popular. Roll with it or move on.
Actually... my grudges are less about changes to a game and more about horrible business practices, dishonesty, and their business model being harmful to the industry. The issues with changes to the game would have been enough for me to cancel, not rant the way I do.
Actually your misinformed. You say business model being harmful to the industry. Then by your comparision or logic you should be a MONK right now living in TIBET, having nothing to do with any company. Everywhere you look a company is out to do 1 thing, and thats make money. Being misinformed that SOE is so bad for you and other people then why hasn't the Government stoped SOE from selling games in USA?? Do you smoke crack? Do you even know what your talking about?
So don't buy fast food, don't buy a car, don't do anything because the companies have similar backgrounds, making money. So you had a bad experience with SOE, I doubt that has stoped you from playing their games. HMMMMM yeah check that list of SOE games you played, and the hipocricy reigns supreme! Go do us a favor and take a critical thinking class and try to understand points and CONS and PROS. Also SOE gets the blame for things like Lucas Arts doing in SWG and what happened with Vanguard. Who sold who to who and didn't SOE help Sigil? Also isn't EQ2 pretty big now with more and more subs each month. Also Blizzard had major setbacks, in the community at Blizzard when servers crashed daily and lag issues with WOW first few months wasn't resolved the people blamed Blizzard hard, and said the same stuff about never buying another blizzard product. But LOTR is out and all the haters forgot about that and either bought it or continue playing WOW. If blizzard announced a Diablo 2 online coming up then all the haters would run to it like gold in the hills during the gold rush.
On point, the article explains allot that is very interesting. I like how they are using SOE for distribution etc. Thats a smart move cause SOE rocks for publishing. I can't wait to try POTBS sword fighting.
Comments
Hey, no problem. lol
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
Myself, I don't bash SOE, they have some decent games, my problem with SOE lies with Smedley. What amazes me with all the horrible decisions he has made at a great cost in revenue to SOE, that he is still there.
I will not touch a SOE product as long as he is at the controls of SOE. I don't have to go into the details, his misadventures litter the internet and a google of his name alone brings up a long list of them.
I do feel for the developers. If they had chosen Microsoft for example the hew and cry would have been just as bad.
It is a shame really, as our corp in Eve had been thinking of moving enmass to Potbs. Just saw a post on our forum this morning nixing the move because of SOE.
And yeah, it really is better than I expected. For example, a lot more people clearly understand SOE's role in regards to Matrix Online and Vanguard than I thought. SOE means our game will be in retail stores across the country and that we can launch simultaneously in North America and Europe. SOE means a very large marketing budget to reach gamers who think playing pirates sounds fun. SOE means we don't have to learn how to do secure credit card processing. SOE means we don't have to sign away ownership of the game and that we keep most of the revenues. That's what they're bringing to the table. Neither going it alone nor any other publisher we talked to could give us all of that.
We've been talking to publishers for three years now. I've gone to meeting after meeting with these folks, flying all over the country. Hands down, SOE had the best offer and has the expertise in distribution and marketing that we needed.
We'll definitely lose some customers this way. But an effective marketing and distribution partner means we should be able to gain many, many more.
I don't expect to convince you that we made the right decision. We've lost you as a customer and that's the way it goes. But I am here explaining this stuff for the benefit of others reading these forums who are interested in our game and want to know what we're up to.
John Tynes
Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea
Flying Lab Software
Oh, you mean like when they were making statements like "looking for a distributor..." while they were actually negotiating with one? They waited until the deal was inked to mention anything, rather than state they were looking into SOE as an option... why do you think that is?
Because that's standard business not to tip your hand to other competitors/potential suitors....? C'mon, you're just trolling here.
<mod edit>
I respect your positionand your actions but wonder about your accusation -- wire fraud is pretty serious....how's that proesecution going?
Agreed. There are a lot of great games out there. What I've seen of LOTRO has been very good, for example, and I'm curious to see what NetDevil is doing with their relaunch of Jumpgate.
John Tynes
Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea
Flying Lab Software
Your forums are filled with locked threads, it seems discussion is taking place... only if you like what is being said.
So, you are going with a company with a horrible track record for billing and distribution (check the BBB listings, they are worse than walmart.com) as a solution to billing & distribution?
They've botched the distribution of their own expansions for EQ2, what makes you think they will do a better job with a competitor's product?
Yep... that is the way it goes. Every bad decision will cost you clients. Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get. SOE's own games are hemoraging players, and there is a growing number of people like me who are so fed up with them that we will never play another SOE title, or title associated with SOE.
If this ends up tanking, and you have to lay people off, remember what you said here... "That's the way it goes."
- - - -
Support Independent Game Developers
If you look at the locked threads on our forums, you'll see they end with a note like this:
"Please continue to use *this thread* to talk about publishing and distribution, which also includes information and updates about beta."
The "this thread" part is a link to the main discussion thread on this topic, which has more than 800 posts and counting. We're locking threads to prevent sprawl and confusion, not to stifle discussion. We aren't deleting threads or posts, just trying to keep the discussion going in a single, highly visible place with rapid responses from our staff instead of in dozens of little spinoff threads. Charterizing this as censorship is incorrect and unfair -- it's just good forum management.
If anyone wants to see for themselves, please take a look at our General Discussion forum where we're locking threads and directing people to the main thread on the topic. Check out any of the locked threads and you'll see what's really going on:
http://www.flyinglab.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19
SOE has done great work in distribution. As recently as Vanguard, their ability to get boxes on store shelves was outstanding.
Monthly subscription billing for hundreds of thousands of people is not easy and problems happen. I'm sure there are people with horror stories about billing problems in WoW or EVE or any other game we could name. But for the overwhelming majority of SOE subscribers, things work fine. If 75% of all SOE subscribers had horrible billing problems all the time, they'd be out of business, pure and simple.
We haven't forgotten that at all, and SOE's "big name" is no bigger than EA or NCsoft or any other major publisher. Signing with a publisher does not equal being star-struck.
We've been very careful on this project to manage our costs. We're a small, independent studio and we have to be cautious about overextending ourselves. We know how many subscribers we need to be profitable, and it's not a big number. We're confident we can hit that number and, with SOE's help, find a lot more players beyond that.
In the end, I am convinced that our success or failure will be due to the quality of our game. Even if SOE does everything insanely great and we sell a million copies, it won't matter a bit if 30 days later most of them cancel their subscription. SOE did a truly great job in marketing and distributing Vanguard, but the quality of the game at launch was the deciding factor in whether people kept playing.
In the end, all SOE does is give us a great chance to be seen by gamers. It's up to us and our game to make the most of it.
John Tynes
Producer, Pirates of the Burning Sea
Flying Lab Software
Your forums are filled with locked threads, it seems discussion is taking place... only if you like what is being said.
Originally posted by johntynes
SOE means our game will be in retail stores across the country and that we can launch simultaneously in North America and Europe. SOE means a very large marketing budget to reach gamers who think playing pirates sounds fun. SOE means we don't have to learn how to do secure credit card processing. SOE means we don't have to sign away ownership of the game and that we keep most of the revenues. That's what they're bringing to the table. Neither going it alone nor any other publisher we talked to could give us all of that.
So, you are going with a company with a horrible track record for billing and distribution (check the BBB listings, they are worse than walmart.com) as a solution to billing & distribution?
Originally posted by johntynes
We've been talking to publishers for three years now. I've gone to meeting after meeting with these folks, flying all over the country. Hands down, SOE had the best offer and has the expertise in distribution and marketing that we needed.
They've botched the distribution of their own expansions for EQ2, what makes you think they will do a better job with a competitor's product?
Yep... that is the way it goes. Every bad decision will cost you clients. Unfortunately, you are so star-struck with SOE's big name that you are forgetting something here. You need every sub you can get. SOE's own games are hemoraging players, and there is a growing number of people like me who are so fed up with them that we will never play another SOE title, or title associated with SOE.
If this ends up tanking, and you have to lay people off, remember what you said here... "That's the way it goes."
Dude, you're a piece of work
1.) Threads are locked because unlike mmorpg.com, the community manager and mods know how to consolidate threads. Start looking at them and you'll find links to where active discussion is.
2.) Horrible track record for billing and distribution? 336 complaints in the past 36 months with all of them being resolved.... Now, considering the number of accounts and transactions carried on, that's not a bad reputation, contrary to your belief.
3.) Distribution -- putting boxes on shelves and advertising....
4.) They don't need every subscriber -- As I've said in other threads, there's such a thing as a bad customer and they aren't worth having. Also recognize that companies are aware that their products won't appeal to everyone -- they're not counting on 100% acceptance to survive. They have their target market set and have already account for the SOE boycotters. Their percentage is considered small enough that the gains of partnering with SOE are worth it. Your judgemental attitude automatically makes you and people like you a non-factor and if some of you happen to cross over, then that's a bonus for FLS.
Translated: "blah, blah, blah, I don't like SOE, blah, blah, listen to me so I can feel important, blah, blah, blah"
SOE and POBTS. It's a done deal, like it or not. And the world didn't explode. Imagine that....
Dren, what do you play? I mean seriously, you spend so much time around here waving the SOE suxors flag, how can you actually play any of these independent titles your signature says we should support? You keep saying you are waiting for SoE to make some sort of business decision to improve its image as a indy-killing mega corp.
Then we have here PotBS, being made by a small indy company who could not get the kind of big-box distribution a Major publisher/developer could, so they'd be stuck with Digital download only and would miss a serious part of the market. So what does SoE do? It strikes a deal to allow FLS to retain FULL CONTROL and OWNERSHIP of their INDY game, while giving them the kind of launch that only large publishers/developers could afford. It seems SoE is doing its part to help indy companies get the attention they deserve. What are you doing to help indy companies, besides attacking the one major publisher who seems to agree with your signature "support independent games"?
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
First I would like to say I have played every SOE game.. I for one think SOE ruines everything it touches.. Vangaurd, SWG, EQII, Matrix..well that was bad before sony touched it..
I just hope they dont ruin this..
Well I also played all SOE games and all I can say is that:
1.) Soe has worst developers of 21th century
2.) Soe has a great billing and launcher system
So kudos to you FLS! You have done a great deal
Your second point is not. SOE has a billing system that still charges people after they've cancelled - didn't happen to me in SWG but it did when I left EQ2. "Convenient" mistake - like releasing a game expansion they knew would be obslete in a week's time.
I have to agree. I prefer to see SOE publish a game that would otherwise have less coverage, less subs and therefore poorer community due to lack of players. No company is perfect but I really have trouble understanding how SOE get bashed so much. I have had issues with every company ranging from stand alone games through to mmo. Companies make mistakes because they are run by people. I expect every new release to have bugs and performance issues. So when I come across them I just shrug and move on. I judge each game on its raw potential and ongoing development. Otherwise I would never last more than 2 weeks in any new release.
Is there an official release date or have I just missed the post?
Since the deal between SOE and FLS strictly limits Sony to the role of advertiser and distributor i fail to see what the SOE haters have to complain about. Having such limited involvement in the game will limit SOEs share of the profit to a very small percentage.
Most of the money you'd spend on this game would go into the pockets of an indie developer who despite all odds is able to release a kick ass game which finally stands out from the crowd of boring clones offering nothing new.
Despite being a former SWG player myself i will give my money to the folks at FLS for creating this unique and different game which will finally bring me back to playing MMOs and enjoying what i like about them: Giving players the ability to influence that virtual environment, be it either directly through crafting and creating things which are useful to others , through (PvP) combat which actually changes the world map or just by interacting with other players and not be limited to /duel or /spit.
Apparently there's reason for MMORPG to delete all threads which are politely expressing a concern or reason why they are not going to purchase Pirates of the Burning Sea due to Flying Lab's affiliation with SOE.
Very very sad.
The threads deleted were respectful. They were not troling nor flaming.
MMORG.COM has lost all credibility with me and this site is obviously NOT a place to get valid and respectful views and opinions on topics aligned with the theme of this site. (I suppose this indicitive of the inept nature of the mods and admin.)
too bad...
Release has been delayed until Fall. No more specific than that. Now that the deal is signed for publishing we should see a date settled on in the coming weeks. I wouldn't expect it to release until at least September.
As for the SOE deal for platform publishing PotBS, It was the best alternative and the gains from global market reach will FAR outweigh the losses from SOE haters.
I am SO ANGRY right now. I wanted to buy this game so badly, It looked so awesome. SOE is involved now, no way, no thanks. I have been burned WAY too many times. This is another BOYCOTT SOE post. It might be the best game ever, even with SOE. But i'll never know, cause I just wont play it. Fuck sony, Fuck SOE. I'm out. Hope WAR doesnt get eaten alive.
Thank god I ordered a P'zone.
Who knows how this game game will go, I am still tempted to try it even with SOE publishing it.
One thing to keep in mind though. Smedley is directly responsible for much of the various playerbase problems at SOE in the past and still is at the helm last I looked. If the game is a success, how long will it take Sony to flash money in front of the developers faces? Promises aside, I don't know a developer yet that has not grabbed the money and run at the first opportunity.
My thought is to play the game now and make a decision when such happens. As long as Smedley is in control, SOE cannot be trusted.
Maybe they'll finally focus on what they do best, publishing games. Making them just isn't their forte.
I have to agree. I prefer to see SOE publish a game that would otherwise have less coverage, less subs and therefore poorer community due to lack of players. No company is perfect but I really have trouble understanding how SOE get bashed so much. I have had issues with every company ranging from stand alone games through to mmo. Companies make mistakes because they are run by people. I expect every new release to have bugs and performance issues. So when I come across them I just shrug and move on. I judge each game on its raw potential and ongoing development. Otherwise I would never last more than 2 weeks in any new release.
Is there an official release date or have I just missed the post?
I agree that sure is a great post by SpankyBus.
POTBS username:yohorumrunner
Guild:St George Squadron
John's reply is win thank you.
?played: Nearly everything.
?waiting: *Darkfall*, Hero''s Journey
John's reply is win thank you.
Quote for the truth. A good game is a good game.The fact that you don't care about the company's history is an example of why companies can get away with horrible business practices. People are too complacent, and will overlook the bad so they can get self gratification. It's sad, really... not that you care.
Actually... my grudges are less about changes to a game and more about horrible business practices, dishonesty, and their business model being harmful to the industry. The issues with changes to the game would have been enough for me to cancel, not rant the way I do.
Actually your misinformed. You say business model being harmful to the industry. Then by your comparision or logic you should be a MONK right now living in TIBET, having nothing to do with any company. Everywhere you look a company is out to do 1 thing, and thats make money. Being misinformed that SOE is so bad for you and other people then why hasn't the Government stoped SOE from selling games in USA?? Do you smoke crack? Do you even know what your talking about?
So don't buy fast food, don't buy a car, don't do anything because the companies have similar backgrounds, making money. So you had a bad experience with SOE, I doubt that has stoped you from playing their games. HMMMMM yeah check that list of SOE games you played, and the hipocricy reigns supreme! Go do us a favor and take a critical thinking class and try to understand points and CONS and PROS. Also SOE gets the blame for things like Lucas Arts doing in SWG and what happened with Vanguard. Who sold who to who and didn't SOE help Sigil? Also isn't EQ2 pretty big now with more and more subs each month. Also Blizzard had major setbacks, in the community at Blizzard when servers crashed daily and lag issues with WOW first few months wasn't resolved the people blamed Blizzard hard, and said the same stuff about never buying another blizzard product. But LOTR is out and all the haters forgot about that and either bought it or continue playing WOW. If blizzard announced a Diablo 2 online coming up then all the haters would run to it like gold in the hills during the gold rush.
On point, the article explains allot that is very interesting. I like how they are using SOE for distribution etc. Thats a smart move cause SOE rocks for publishing. I can't wait to try POTBS sword fighting.