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Why PVP?
maszen
Member Posts: 4
Hello everyone,
First off...please be kind. This is in fact my first post on any forum, ever.
Secondly...I have been playing MMO's since 99'. I have tried many and loved most of them. Here is my deal.
Most MMO's are going PVP. I in fact have never participated and would like some input as to what all the fuss is. What is the draw? Why is it so much better than regular PVE? I'm really looking forward to Warhammer Online and want to add value to the side of my choosing....in that also, what makes someone better at PVP than another?
Please advise!
Thanks
Comments
few things
1) Not all mmos are going pvp. However, all asian style mmos include pvp (even though the games themselves have a pve grind that makes eq1 seem like easy mode) And most us/euro mmos are trying to focus on pvp because pve market already has numeroues games for people to choose (wow, eq2, lotro etc) while pvp market has almost nothing (daoc, eve... uh, uo!) Also, many people want a good pvp game (but not available atm) so, a company makes a good pvp game and people will come, where as with pve, if you make the same good ol' grind for items style game, then people will go "why play it when I can already play wow or eq or.."
Supply and demand =p Supply for pvp games is almost 0 but demend is pretty high, where as with pve games it's about equal.
2) In order to understand what makes pvp games fun, we must first look at the fundamental difference between pve and pvp games. Pve games revolve around pve content. Once players reach max level, developers cannot put out content for them at the same rate that players will go through it. Thus, pve games must include time sinks in their pve content to inssure that the players will play it long enaugh for devs to make more content.
At some point people get fed up with the time sinks and leave the game. Time sinks can be many, from excesive downtime, to quest items that have 0.1%chance to drop, to gear grind ala wow style. People will eventually get fed up with the "time sink" part of pve content and look for another game.
PvP games on the other hand doesn't need any content at all, pvp playes itself =p be it daoc with roaming 8 mans and keep sieges, shadowbane with its city building and server domination or eve with it's pirating and large battles for system control. Developers play no part in it, it's all players.
Pvp games can also include pve which has no time sinks (since pve is there for pvp'ers to have fun when bored with pvp) So devs generally care little if the players will go through pve content before new content is created. So, ironically, pvp games have more fun, but usually not nearly as long lasting pve content as pve games do.
3) Now, with the differences between pve and pvp games out of the way. People enjoy pvp because it lets you fight other players. Pve fight are ither 100% guaranteed win (fighting equal lvl mobs, which you need to kill say 200 to get to lvl 21) there is no challenge, they are just there for you to kill. Bosses aren't much better, once you have the right group make up and possibly correct gear, you just need to figure out any tricks (if there are any) to fighting said boss, after that it's just as easy to kill as a normal mob. Big raids are even less fun, it's the same as Bosses for a group except you get a new parameter "number of morons in your raid" if the number of morons gets too high you wipe, if it stays low enaugh, you farm said boss (once your gear/strategy/group make up are good enaugh to kill that boss)
Pvp on the other hand puts you against players who think, no pvp fight is the same. Also, pvp, unlike pve, is not designed for you to win, in pvp fight, someone always loses, which means when you win, you get a bit of excitement, since you were not guaranteed to win, where as in pve, fighting normal mobs you'll never get excited since it was a given that you'll win.
Pvp fights are different, dynamic and because of that are very fun.
What makes one better at pvp than another? For 1v1 it's usually knowing your class and the class you fought against very well, knowing strenghts and weaknesses of classes very well, and beign able to use your strenght while avoiding your weaknesses to win a fight. For group fight it's working together better than the other team, and perhaps having a better class make up (but workign together is key, unless you are missign an essential class in you group) for zerg vs zerg, it's being more coordinated and listening to leaders (and having good leaders, which people respect and trust to lead) better than the other zerg.
All in all, pvp is much more fun than pve because pvp is dynamic and people will adapt to what you do, where as pve is there for you to beat, and never adapts or changes anything.
/agree
the will to win is what makes you better or worse at pvp. It sounds like a cornball line but its true. I feel like I can win in most games I play in. I am also willing to give up my epeen and ego in order to make my charachter be the most effective for my group. I do this because I want to win, and I need to win because I am a gamer and this is what I do.
why pvp?
Its a rather un tapped market currently. Many games have PvP, but very few focus on it.
what makes people better?
It depends on the game. some games are incredibly gear centric(ala WoW), and those players with the gear are the best. A lot of PvPers do not like this approach. Having better gear should make you more powerful, but being more powerful should not make pvp easier. Hence some games opt to go for a more skill based approach. Either eliminating levels and allowing players to progress skills(ala Ultima Online), or making gear only affect your appearance (ala Guild Wars). Obviously in a more skill based game the more experience you have with pvp the better you will do. this isnt to say a gear based game cant have skill involved, but MOST players in those games do not innovate and think of new pvp strategies. why should they? Their gear is so much better that a few simple and proven skill/spell combos will eliminate every opponent most of the time. Where as the skill based game pvper is constantly thinking of new styles of play and strategy. This can get very intresting when multiple combatants become involved! One of the largest factors I think is that lust for blood. If you really want to beat someones head in you can (speaking in game here of course
)
But, yeah, the struggle of becoming the best is a genetic heritage the male side of humanity has suffered from.. well, for as long as we've been humans.
It's funny to see the young ones ask about "why we fight"... It's like.. Purity just asking to be devoured by the testosteron devil...
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Bravo, evil. That is one of the best written (though typo-laden) breakdowns of pvp versus pve I have ever read. It was very informative to me, and will be especially to those who are inexperienced in the matter.
And to the Original Poster -
Try it. Try pvp. You have been playing mmos for 8 years you say, but have never participated in pvp? Just do it. It won't kill you (in real life at least) to try, and you may get more of a thrill out of it than you realize. One thing I'd like to add on to evil's post, however, is that PvP requires a much higher level of actual skill in general.
For example, as you level in PvE your character will gain experience and levels, as well as new abilities and such. You will figure out a good way to destroy said mobs over and over, generally using the same mix of skills. In pvp, however, you will gain experience as a PERSON by fighting other players over and over and learning how to counter their tactics by thinking ahead, and gaining skill in general.
With PvP you have to move around much more dynamically, considering that your target will definitely not stay still, especially if one of you is ranged and the other is melee. You have to figure out ways to manipulate your target's condition, such as slowing, poisoning, putting them to sleep, etc. Basically, you need to use every tool you have to gain the advantage in the fight - tools which you may not even be aware of until you figure out their usefulness in pvp.
The difference between pvp and pve is much like the difference between Final Fantasy 7 and Super Mario. In Final Fantasy 7, there is little coordination involved and a lot more thinking - what abilities to use, magic and such - as well as building your gear outside of fights. However, the battles themselves depend much less on your skill as a player. However, in a game like Super Mario, you must coordinate your jumps perfectly, and boss fights are much more difficult because you have to practice in order to master them.
To sum it up: PvE yields character experience which progresses you further into the content of the game, while PvP yields player experience which teaches you how to become better at winning.
Jakadasnake here really sounds like he's pushing heroin o.O
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Wow.....
I'm shocked by the amount of response so far. This has been ideally what I was looking for. I really do appreciate everyone's time and wisdom.
The whole PVP vs. PVE makes much more sense. Your posts helped me out greatly and I thank everyone.
If I may question further....
I am mostly the adventurer/explorer type player. I love sight seeing and the adventure of comming up against potential death in unknown territory.
Do you feel players such as I should stray from PVP or do you feel it's just an aquired taste?
Or maybe I just need to get my first taste of blood............?
In PvE you can pretty much sit back in auto pilot and get your self out of 60% of your fights or more depending on the MMO (99.99% in WoW), In PvP you have to actually pay attention and the thrill of a kill is so much better when you know you put some 13 year old to bet crying "NERF" , and even better than that are those epic fights where your matched up with someone of equal or better skill, and you have to bring your A game. Victory tastes so much better when it is distilled from defeat.
Stay
The
Hell
Away--
To be fair, WAR here has alot of PVE too,
but, if you're not a full blown gamer and happen to have another life too (RL)
don't do Pvp... It.. consumes..
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
You described why i PvP. Potential death in unknown lands. Its about the thrill of danger! Like someone else said, 8 years of MMOs and you havent tried it yet? Do it!
Well...going PvP is a popular choice for devs.
These devs often play PvP games and think challenge is what is driving the players, while in facts, challenges are a side order, something nice, but only an extra in a RPG.
If you think that challenge is very important, then PvP is the way to go (FPS). If you think that challenges are a secondary aspect in the best case scenario, you should go PvE (RPG).
Let's review the success of the MMOs with a monthly fee in the west:
- WoW
- EQ2/FFXI/EQ/SWG (not sure which come first and which come last)
- CoH/CoV
- Lineage1/Lineage2/DAoC
The first PvP MMO is in 7th position at best. I didn't even considered some games such as LotRO or DDO...so the first PvP game is prolly 8th or worser in the west.
Now if we look at non-MMO games: FPS are the most popular, and they are PvP oriented...if you look at the EAST, the MMOs over there are more PvP oriented...so the devs kinda think PvP isn't fully blown and are trying...
Or they think they can't compete PvE-wise.
At any rate, PvP is a nice thing, especially for WAR. However, I do believe that shafting PvE as they do in WAR is a mistake in the western market considering which MMOs westerners like and enjoys. Considering that AoC is doing the same mistake, I would just figure these devs are focused on the EAST market, or on their own desire, rather then on the market.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I dont think Mythic is shafting the PvE as badly as you think they are. But they are shafting it big time according to the rabid WAR fanbois who go around spreading misinformation about how WAR is PVP and nothing else.
WAR is RvR, RvR is a mixture of BOTH PvE and PvP. It is PvE and PvP integrated together.
I am waiting for WAR, however I am not so hyped up that I ignore what is being said and just concentrate on what I as a player want. Mythic has stated their will be at least 4 big PvE dungeons at realease. 1 for each racial pairing and 1 PvP PvE instance much like Darkness Falls in DAoC. Public Quests also seem heavily PvE influenced, although there maybe PvP ones we dont know about yet.
WAR is not ONLY PvP it is just RvR oriented. Meaning that the game is built from the ground up to support and to encourage PvPing. Unlike WoW which is built from the ground up to be a PvE game with some PvP tacked on as an afterthought and time consuming mechanism.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Well there is certainly the possibility of death in pvp games lol.
Honestly just try them out and by that you have to give it a little time, some people want to quit right after they die for the first time and then get into and others get hell bent on revenge. Also different games play differently, pvp in one game can feel completely different in another game.
Anofalye Well I suppose that also something to do with why they are going with a pvp focus. If they went the more traditional pve with a bit of a pvp flair then they got a rather large number of competitors. By going pvp they can draw in the pvp crowd, also WoW has alot of pvp servers and many want a more balanced/satisfying pvp experience.
Fun Factor is what makes or breaks a game, if its not fun just play something else.
WAR is shafting PvE on a scale similar as to how WoW is shafting PvP.
All this PvE they do, they do without giving it a PvE purpose. I have nothing against the WAR in itself...but why would I want to play this extra 5 minutes of PvE. Why would I want to log in WAR and play PvE? I don't see any reason to; as I can't master it. Maybe I will try it and discard it after the free month, maybe I won't bother with it at all, but I any rate, I don't see any reason as to why I would focus on it, since after all, there are none, you have to go out and raze capital cities to progress past a point, in PvE as well.
Shadow: I have nothing against the PvP focus...I have everything against the lack of lust they have to PvE. Why would I PvE? Gimme a reason to stay online instead of going to sleep. There are none, since after all, if I want to be good at PvE past a point, to the enemy capital city I must go. PvE in WAR, despite all their efforts, has no lust, no lasting appeal.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'm an explorer personality too (massively high on the explorer quad according to the bartle test). While I enjoy exploring for its own sake, there's nothing like knowing the pathways and the terrain well enough to lead your friends, to direct ranged party members to useful cliffs and overhangs, to scout the enemy deployment, or to be the master "finder" who knows every bolthole in a region and can find anything that's been hidden.
The folks at Mythic are even planning to reward us explorers - they're including what they've called "Christmas Quests" - isolated places, events and creatures to be found off the beaten path that give little effort-cool reward. Find a dead elf, take his sword. Find a goblin wolf rider who wants you to feed his mount, feed him to his mount and take his stuff.
Aside, I can't belive somebody just equated PvE with RP. RP has absolutely NOTHING to do with PvE vs PvP preference - some of the hands down best RP guilds ever to exist on MMOGs have been PvP groups. RP tends to thrive under FFA (free for all, everyone can fight everyone) conditions.
Edit: In WAR we will PvE for the same reason we PvP - to earn victory points for the realm and capture territory. Its not about getting stuff, its about the competition and defeating the enemy.
Hmmm sorry if I came off a little confrontational, writing essays stresses me out hehe,
It is my opinion that all mmos will ultimately be either pve with a dash of pvp for spice or a distraction(timesink) untill more content is added or it will be a pvp game with some pve to get you to max level, provide a common location to attract pvp, or it will more or less a chance to catch your breath and relax without being ready to fight.
WAR does seem to be doing its best to intergrate pvp and pve content into one area, ie doing various things from collecting body parts to rituals to summon a demon that will attack your oppenents.
So far every game I've played either the pve or pvp seems lacking, sometimes both Haha
Fun Factor is what makes or breaks a game, if its not fun just play something else.
Personally I played lineage 2 for a year only because of the awesome graphics and character models. I hated the open pvp and swore them off forever. I have played mmorpgs since 99 as well, starting with eq1. To me pvp is nothing more than a game allowing you to be harassed by other players and is not for me. I won most of my pvp battles that i chose to participate in but still didn't like it . I found that pvp was a money game he who has the best armor and weapons wins plane and simple. That opens the black market for farmers to take control of the markets in the game and sell game money on the Internet which makes the game market go even higher. I will not waste my money on a pvp game. In my opinion what game devs should do is put up both servers and give the player the choice like in wow which has pve or pvp servers. from what i have herd in the games that I have played ,( eq1 eq2 wow lineage2 gw vanguard and lotr ) the player base is 25% pvp 50% some pvp but not forced and 25% no pvp. look at lineage 2 for example it is a dismal failur in the west even though it has awesome graphics and character models quite simply millions tryed it and millions quit playing it becouse of its open pvp lol. I know the poles on this web sight say differently but I doubt even 50% of the people who play mmorpgs have taken this pole or even come to this web sight. Back when Iwas playing eq1 they had pvp servers but no one much played on them in wow I heard so many players who came to my pve server from a pvp server who said they didn't like pvp and wouldnt play pvp servers agian, and judging by the amount of servers eq1 eq2 lotr coh vanguard and the other non pvp games or games who have pve servers I feel my estimates are really accurate. For the life of me I dint know why the devs are so dumb as to center a game on ether pve or pvp. All games should come out with both pvp and non pvp servers and let the customer base make the choices, Some day they may actually see the light put both up and then make a lot more money.After all money is what its all about not what the devs want but what the players want. I personally will not waste my money on pvp games or a game that forces me into pvp to reach the lvl cap been there done that. Hated it
Well, many contradicting arguments, but I will try to explain:
PvE goal = contributing to the WAR effort: That doesn't work. PvE will not be fueled by this. It may fuel some PvP or WAR driven peoples, but it won't fuel the PvE crowds. The PvE crowds don't mind that their effort is contributing or not to the WAR, they really don't care...you need a goal, a reason to PvE...and so far, I see no lasting reason or appeal.
Many PvE games, so no reason to appeal to the PvE crowds: The more games are existing for a play taste, the more this taste is developped, the more players will want it. So, with each of the top 7 games in the WEST been PvE driven, you really need to find them a motivation, a reason to like the WAR. Maybe you can convert them to the RvR, to the PvP or to whatever else, but first, you must gain them, as what they are, and this won't be achieve with traps, enforcements or anything that isn't positive...you want the PvE crowd, you make them something okay to cool (which is not the case atm), and then you make a better game on your focus. ATM, there is no reason to PvE, you do it only for the WAR and to go raze the enemy capitals...or to progress from larva to lame, which isn't enough. Also note that no MMO beside CoV is appealing to groupers, but all developp grouping tastes...now CoV has a very unpopular setting...so, the door for PvE-groupers is wide open for the taking.
Don't limit yourself to 1 activity only, do them all, be a generalist: Vanguard and Saga of Ryzom also have this belief...
I seem to draw many passions, to even outright anger some peoples. I don't want to remove anything from anyone, I just want the game to add a focus, a reason for the PvEers, be it a different server, or whatever, but the PvE-centric crowd needs a reason to focus and play. If WoW shaft the PvP crowd, shafting the PvE crowd back might feel good, but it wouldn't do the game any good nor any service...and on a side note, I feel shafted by WoW, as I am not a raider...and shafted by most PvP games such as DAoC or Lineage or whatever...So if you feel shafted by WoW PvP, don't draw that against the PvE groupers, we are definitely the worstly shafted players, at least soloers can flee to offline...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
All those games you mentioned are PvE games with PvP in there, Lineage 2 might be a little more focused on PvP but you still have to grind forever in PvE to get anywhere.
This game is not going to be open PvP and the PvE is looking to be very well thought out and interesting, if you have seen any info on the public quests, or the tome of knowledge you would know this.
Also you did not mention anything about Dark Age of Camelot which will be the closest game to how the PvP in this game will be.
This game will not be similar to the PvP servers of any other game, Even Dark Age of Camelot had separate PvP servers that did just as well as the PvP servers on those other games.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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Wall of text, mind struggling, eyes spinning....
Seriously though, why is it that so many MMO players seem to think that all MMOGs MUST fulfill their personal pet desires or fail horribly? I hate RTS games. I won't waste my money on RTS games. Does that mean the guys who make Command & Conquer should remake "Generals" with a turn-based mechanic? No, they should stick to their game design, make the best game they can for people that like RTS, and wave me on. They'll make far more money making a spectacular RTS game than watering down their game design to make it appeal to me.
The position of the folks at Mythic regarding people who don't like the way they're designing the game:
Anofayle, I thought we came to realization in the previous thread that War is simply not the game you can enjoy, and it is that way not because devs have made some horrid mistake, but because their focus and vision for the game does not match yours.
They don't need to give pve a pve purpose simply because they are not targetting pve centric crowd. Yes, more people like pve compared to pvp, Mythic is well aware of that. Yet they are making a game for those who want pvp, don't want to pvp? You can still play but it's probably not the best option. I really fail why you even go on about pve needing a pve centered goal or w/e. It's like me coming to eq2 boards and complaining they don't have a good rvr system.
To op. You should definitely give pvp a try, though I think for explorer types, you might enjoy war even without pvp just because pve sounds very fun and interesting. Still, give pvp a try, if you don't like it, no big deal, but you very well might
PS: Lineage 2 is not a good example of pvp. Ffa pvp servers usually don't do too well, and combined with lineage 2 horrible level grind and the fact you lose exp/items when you die... it's a pvp game for people who enjoy pain, ie. asian market
This may just be my opinion but the main reason anyone would PvE is to get together with people and explore the world to have some fun, which IMO WAR is going to do an outstanding job compared to other games, the tome of knowledge will be a book that holds everything you do, from lore of the game to kill counts on mobs and such. Also public quests are there to get people together quickly without the LFG time.
The public quests are my favorite part because instead of sitting LFG for PvE you will just go take part in the quest, and if you notice people doing the same thing as you, you would go hey lets group. That’s what I believe they are trying to accomplish with that.
I don’t know where you get your ideas of PvE, I have seen you say that loot is what matters yet you don’t like to raid, and the whole point of raiding is to get loot. Loot drives raiding. Just because WAR wants PvP to lead to the loot instead of raids dosnt mean that there is no PvE content in the game.
Also if you have PvE that will give you the same gear as the PvP raids what’s the point to raid the capital city if you can just go to the easy PvE and get the same stuff? PvP is in general harder to accomplish than PvE.
I have to agree with you as much as I don’t want to
that non raider group orientated PvE people have a huge shaft when it comes to MMOs. Besides my love of PvP I would call myself a non raider group orientated PvEer. After you lvl up through any mmo out there the end game is always raiding, even if it’s a PvP server.
IMO you should take a look at public quests and how the tome of knowledge is gonna work, there isn’t much out about it although. I believe mythic is really trying to find a good way of putting PvE into the game without raiding.
I think PvE is about the exploration, lore, and people you meet. Not about the Loot/raiding, and WAR seems to be trying to take the Loot/raiding element out of the PvE.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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thats part of what I liked about DAoC. There never really was an exscuse for when you lost. But in wow there is so little class balance and so much reliance on skill , you never really feel bad when you lose because you always will have some sort of cop out since the game isnt really ever giving you a fair fight.
Good post.I've always been primarily a solo PVEer - I like to get out, find challenges, find ways to overcome things most players think I shouldn't be able to overcome. I occasionally group, when I need to, and enjoy it well enough, and I PvP when I feel the odd urge or I stumble into something, but something like 80% of my time is spent in solo PvE.
Yet nothing, and I mean nothing, Ano has said about PVEers in any of his posts about "what PVEers like and want" has made the slightest sense to me. Its because he's an achiever - he wants levels and lootz and awards - and he thinks that all PVEers are like him, when the things that make PVE meaningful to him have nothing to do with PVE itself, or with what motivates others.
WAR will have an active, fun PVE environment with plenty of motivation and reward for the 70%+ of PVEers that are not primarily acheivers. The fraction of PVEers that are left over will find games with a reward-motivation structure that better fits their personality.