EQ I still think was a better and more innovative game than WoW. Also in regards to quests in EQ you could get quest items without need of having talked to the quest npc first which was a much better overall situation and it had probably as many quests in reality at least useful ones with actual loot rewards. Also EQ promoted the idea of grouping by giving a minor group xp bonus and had a larger group size while in WoW you were better off to soloing till max level. EQ had a better community. EQ had more danger and challenges as a result of it. Let's be honest sure it had trains and sure they could be frustrating if you were on the losing end of one, but at the same time if you got trained and managed to derail it successfully it could be a really rewarding feeling. Some of the trains in EQ I managed to live through still amazes me to this day. EQ was more realistic, more challenging, and more rewarding. All the uber loot you got could be handed to a lower level alt of yours and completely own at least for the first few expansions until they added in level requirements to items. Leveling alts was actually wicked fun back in those days of EQ. The game also had more classes and races.
All those things sound great on paper, but I think Vanguard proves people aren't as interesting in that kind of experience anymore.
I don't know if we can really use Vanguard as an example of that, while I had no intrest because of Brads love of time sinks and travel time, it had so many other problems with bugs and performance and unfinished content that lost it subscribers.
I think its fair to say Everquest wasn't everyone's cup of tea, just like for instance muds aren't. But, I do think while Everquest can be overappreciated by some it is also possibly underappreciated by others as the kind of game it wanted to be and was. I think there is a reason for this and that is I think underlying there was a design flaw that maybe didn't suit the game- that is the mmorpg element of grind and personal progression mixed with the strong rpg element. You see people reminsense of this rpg element like the OP, but other people too hately remember the timesinks and the grind(rightly) which is where the opposing opinions come in regarding Everquest. That and also it not being everyone's cup of tea in the first place. Some people will prefer strong gameplay over anything else.
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
Yes LDoN was the last expansion I bought.
Cool. I think you have to patch higher now. But it has corrected all the mistakes of the Live servers and implemented a lot of new features to make it better.
i remeber crawling through beholder like it was yesterday, i got seperated from my group, fell into a trap door and got raped by high level chillbone skeletons. it was awsome.
the bitterness of defeat made the victories that much sweeter!
pvping in greater fey was my favorite past time as a youth. slaughtering wood elves whole-sale is the most rewarding thing a boy can do in the virtual age.
EQ1 was the greatest mmo of all time... nothing has even come close since.
and probably never will... "WHY?" you ask?
because the mmo industry as a whole "sold out." it is most likey forever changed and will never ever be as it was in the nostalgic olden days.
you could say wow is the ultimate manifestation of the mmo industry selling out to gain more fans... i can see their board meeting now..
if we mix old school dnd style crawls... with mario cart.... BRILLIANT
it's just like metallica... used to be great... now you could use it in chinese torture methods.
No game has ever captivated me the way the original everquest did. Unfortunately the more expansions they made the less impressed I was. Too bad kids these days are too lazy to play a real game.
I agree with whoever above said that MMOGs these days have sold out. They have sold out to mass market appeal (easy mode where everyone thinks they are a god)
I also had a lot of fun times playing EQ. In fact I probably have my most vivid memories from that game. The problem is that I wouldn't want to invest the kind of time it required into a game again. It has nothing to do with being hard or easy. EQ would be a lot easier today anyway because everything would be mapped out very quickly. Maps would be posted all over the internet. Farmers would be having a fieldday if there were no level limitations or no drop items like in original EQ.
And why did it all get changed......... Because players complained about everything you had in your list. Can you imagine asking a player to run back naked to loot their corpse. Not today. Can you imagine darkness so dark that you really couldn't move around, even with the little lantern you were carrying... Not today. None of those things in your list, sadly, would fly with todays MMORPG player.
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason.
Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason.
Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world.
Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun".
It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
The comments below are not directed at you but at those who think VG is/was supposed to be a "hardcore" game.
Vangaurd was never and will never be a "hardcore" game because it was not designed to cater to "hardcore" players with hours to burn or casual players with 1 hour to spare.
As it was stated by Brad and others at Sigil "Vangaurd was/is designed to cater to "Core Gamers". People who aren't casual but also don't spend 6+ hours a day everyday grinding away in the game. It was designed to cater to people who have grown up and have more of a life now but how are willing to set aside 2-4 hours to game.
The only people who say that VG is supposed to be "hardcore" are those who wanted a EQ1 clone with all the afore mention dated and discarded features that the majority of "Core Gamers" disliked in the first place.
Q: Earlier today you spoke about EverQuest. Vanguard is a huge leap forward from EQ Live (which Brad also was part of), not only in technological terms but in terms of expectations. People are a little more savvy, and more knowledgeable about MMOs in general. How are you position Vanguard to meet the expectations of both the high-end or hardcore gamer as well as the more casual gamer?
Brad: Well, that's our biggest challenge. People naturally assume the extremes - you are either a casual gamer or a hardcore gamer. In my opinion most people are in the middle, the core gamer. So we are really focusing on the message that our game is not a hardcore game. It has hardcore content, it has casual content but the majority of the content is core content where you can log on for an hour and have a good time.
You can work eight hours on some rare item, but you can do it in two- or three-hour chunks. We realize that people who played EQ have grown up; we realize we want to attract a lot of people who play WoW (World of Warcraft) who have different expectations, different experiences. One of the benefits of being Sigil and having our background in EverQuest is the recognition, but it is a lot of the challenges that a lot of people assume that this game will be a lot of camping and hardcore.
So that is one of our big efforts right now in messaging, marketing and PR is that, yes, we are more challenging and deeper and are about longevity. We hope that people, World of Warcraft players that have three of four characters at max level, and are looking for something more, we want to let them know about Vanguard. So one challenge is even letting them know, because maybe they are new players and weren't around in the EQ days, or maybe they were around and they only heard oh, it is a hardcore game.' So we want to get the message out right.
Some of my EQ memeries are probably nastalgia. I was a lot younger when I played EQ. On the otherhand the game was fun because it didn't have a lot of the restrictions that bind today's games because people are waiting to exploit them. Games today have to be made with lots of restrictions in order to stop the exploitation of others. When EQ was around MMOs were new territory. Only us computer nerds played them and we didn't have any experience with them. There weren't any gold farmers around. It was a differnt experience that you really can't duplicate today.
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason.
We often romanticize the past.
Its just like how your years in school were horrible, and yet you still say they were the best years of your life.
You often only remember the good. Like in EQ you remember the nice things, you dont remember the tedium. The fustration of losing things and not finding them. Times when nobody would help you or when things didn't make sense.
There is a reason games aren't like that anymore, and Ill give you a hint. Game designers aren't stupid.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason.
We often romanticize the past.
Its just like how your years in school were horrible, and yet you still say they were the best years of your life.
You often only remember the good. Like in EQ you remember the nice things, you dont remember the tedium. The fustration of losing things and not finding them. Times when nobody would help you or when things didn't make sense.
There is a reason games aren't like that anymore, and Ill give you a hint. Game designers aren't stupid.
Game designers are stupid. They are stupid because they are all trying to copy WoW's success and turning out the same tired dummied down games. Icons floating over NPC's heads and no death penalties and unrealistic speedy travel times and mobs color coded and rated so any idiot can tell if they are easy or hard.
Obviously there is an audience for a classic Evequest style game, where realism and difficulty led to challenges and fun, but designers are too busy chasing WoW with blinders on to notice.
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason. Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world.
Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun".
It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
I typically don't draw on real life analogies because it should be easy to make the distinction between gaming consequences and real life consequences. If you want to introduce real life, I'd argue that its the Gen Y types who are impatient, jaded and cynical that have introduced their elitist self preoccupied ideology that earning things is an antiquated philosophy for people who linger in 'nostalgia'.
The Old Timers Guild Laid back, not so serious, no drama. All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
[quote]Originally posted by BuzWeaver [b][quote]Originally posted by M1sf1t
Originally posted by BuzWeaver
Originally posted by ianubisi
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason. Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world. Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun". It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
I typically don't draw on real life analogies because it should be easy to make the distinction between gaming consequences and real life consequences. If you want to introduce real life, I'd argue that its the Gen Y types who are impatient, jaded and cynical that have introduced their elitist self preoccupied ideology that earning things is an antiquated philosophy for people who linger in 'nostalgia'.[/b][/quote]
Again most people have fond memories of their first online MMO where they encounter their first social game in which they made/meet their first online friends. This is similar to Munki's high school analogy. Sure high school was a blast. I meet people who I didn't for the first time and made some good friendships etc, but if I had to choose I'd much rather be the adult I am today with my disposable income and the freedom to do what I want when I want instead of somehow trying to relive the past.
I've grown up and so have most gamers when it comes to what they expect from MMO's. This is especially true because the demographic for PC gaming market and especially MMO's as it is still dominated by adults. Hell the average age of your WoW player is between 20-35 and a bunch of them already had prior MMO experiences from EQ1, OU, DAOC, SWG, PlanetSide, etc....
If you want to derail the debate into a tangent of generational flame war just so you can stroke your own ego then go right ahead. I hope it makes you feel better because in reality it has nothing to do with "Generation XYZ" vs "Generation ABC" and everything to do with improved production values and getting more refined game play for your buck.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
[quote]Originally posted by M1sf1t [b][quote]Originally posted by BuzWeaver
Originally posted by M1sf1t
Originally posted by BuzWeaver
Originally posted by ianubisi
Memories of the past are always more attractive than the reality of the past. Nostalgia trumps reason. Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world. Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun". It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
I typically don't draw on real life analogies because it should be easy to make the distinction between gaming consequences and real life consequences. If you want to introduce real life, I'd argue that its the Gen Y types who are impatient, jaded and cynical that have introduced their elitist self preoccupied ideology that earning things is an antiquated philosophy for people who linger in 'nostalgia'.
Again most people have fond memories of EQ1 because it was their first online MMO where they encountered their first interactive online social game. A MMO game in which they made/meet their first online friends. This is similar to Munki's high school analogy. Sure high school was a blast. I meet people who I didn't know for the first time and made some good friendships etc. Of course if I had to choose I'd much rather be the adult I am today with my disposable income and have the freedom to do what I want to do, when I want to do it instead of somehow trying to relive the past which for the most part is based on nostalgia.
I've grown up and matured. Most MMO gamers have grown up and matured and they expect more from MMO's. Just look at the demographic for the PC gaming market especially MMO's. It still is dominated by adults. Hell the average age of your WoW player is between 20-35 and a bunch of them already had prior MMO experiences from EQ1, OU, DAOC, SWG, PlanetSide, etc....
If you want to derail the original debate and go off on a tangent centered around a generational flame war then go right ahead. I hope it makes you feel better because in reality it has nothing to do with "Generation XYZ" vs "Generation ABC" and everything to do with improved production values and getting more refined game play for your monthly mmo buck.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
M!sfit I'm curious under 'games you've tried' you don't include EQ. Why? If you haven't played it then it seems a bit silly to comment on the reasons people liked EQ or not.
Originally posted by nomadian M!sfit I'm curious under 'games you've tried' you don't include EQ. Why? If you haven't played it then it seems a bit silly to comment on the reasons people liked EQ or not.
I know enough about the game to make a comment from having talk to friends who played it to reading articles online about it and understanding the industry.
An outside observer and still can make comments based on their own observations on the subject from a outsiders perspective and conversations from those who have play the game. There is no law anywhere that prevents people from stating their own views on a game just because they haven't played a game. Using your analogy( which is based on a faulty fallacy ) you wouldn't be talk about a lot of things
- "Hey have if you never practiced as a doctor or been a lawyer then don't talk about malpractice lawsuits."
- "Hey have if you never held public office you should not talk about politicians or politics."
- "Hey have if you never driven a NASCAR racing car then you don't have the right to talk about NASCAR until you driven one"
Need I go on ?
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Comments
EQ I still think was a better and more innovative game than WoW. Also in regards to quests in EQ you could get quest items without need of having talked to the quest npc first which was a much better overall situation and it had probably as many quests in reality at least useful ones with actual loot rewards. Also EQ promoted the idea of grouping by giving a minor group xp bonus and had a larger group size while in WoW you were better off to soloing till max level. EQ had a better community. EQ had more danger and challenges as a result of it. Let's be honest sure it had trains and sure they could be frustrating if you were on the losing end of one, but at the same time if you got trained and managed to derail it successfully it could be a really rewarding feeling. Some of the trains in EQ I managed to live through still amazes me to this day. EQ was more realistic, more challenging, and more rewarding. All the uber loot you got could be handed to a lower level alt of yours and completely own at least for the first few expansions until they added in level requirements to items. Leveling alts was actually wicked fun back in those days of EQ. The game also had more classes and races.
I don't know if we can really use Vanguard as an example of that, while I had no intrest because of Brads love of time sinks and travel time, it had so many other problems with bugs and performance and unfinished content that lost it subscribers.
I think its fair to say Everquest wasn't everyone's cup of tea, just like for instance muds aren't. But, I do think while Everquest can be overappreciated by some it is also possibly underappreciated by others as the kind of game it wanted to be and was. I think there is a reason for this and that is I think underlying there was a design flaw that maybe didn't suit the game- that is the mmorpg element of grind and personal progression mixed with the strong rpg element. You see people reminsense of this rpg element like the OP, but other people too hately remember the timesinks and the grind(rightly) which is where the opposing opinions come in regarding Everquest. That and also it not being everyone's cup of tea in the first place. Some people will prefer strong gameplay over anything else.
Please, nostalgia has its effect, but you can't write off old games/movies/music/whatever just because of the concept of nostalgia. Come on.
________
-nexen-
A classic EQ server exists, with better features and upgrades than Live. However, if you mention the name of it, MMORPG bans you unknowingly that SOE is aware of the server and allows it.
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
Yes LDoN was the last expansion I bought.
If it's the one I know of it requires expansions until LDoN which is post PoP. For me classic would be the first trilogy and maybe Luclin but not PoP, Everquest's first and most powerful genocide
Ya, to get more content and more dungeons. It is done quite well, though. Did you try it?
Yes LDoN was the last expansion I bought.
Cool. I think you have to patch higher now. But it has corrected all the mistakes of the Live servers and implemented a lot of new features to make it better.
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.
i remeber crawling through beholder like it was yesterday, i got seperated from my group, fell into a trap door and got raped by high level chillbone skeletons. it was awsome.
the bitterness of defeat made the victories that much sweeter!
pvping in greater fey was my favorite past time as a youth. slaughtering wood elves whole-sale is the most rewarding thing a boy can do in the virtual age.
EQ1 was the greatest mmo of all time... nothing has even come close since.
and probably never will... "WHY?" you ask?
because the mmo industry as a whole "sold out." it is most likey forever changed and will never ever be as it was in the nostalgic olden days.
you could say wow is the ultimate manifestation of the mmo industry selling out to gain more fans... i can see their board meeting now..
if we mix old school dnd style crawls... with mario cart.... BRILLIANT
it's just like metallica... used to be great... now you could use it in chinese torture methods.
No game has ever captivated me the way the original everquest did. Unfortunately the more expansions they made the less impressed I was. Too bad kids these days are too lazy to play a real game.
I agree with whoever above said that MMOGs these days have sold out. They have sold out to mass market appeal (easy mode where everyone thinks they are a god)
I also had a lot of fun times playing EQ. In fact I probably have my most vivid memories from that game. The problem is that I wouldn't want to invest the kind of time it required into a game again. It has nothing to do with being hard or easy. EQ would be a lot easier today anyway because everything would be mapped out very quickly. Maps would be posted all over the internet. Farmers would be having a fieldday if there were no level limitations or no drop items like in original EQ.
This thread should narrow and confirm that:
http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/137899
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
Really? I recall being challenged in the game and having to earn my way through it, that hardly trumps reasons considering that those elements of game play is what attracted people. Bad Reasoning is now trumping nostalgia because players can't be bothered with 'earning' their way through the game, their 'reason' is about getting to the end game where things are 'fun'. These individuals don't have the attention span or cognitive ability to realize what MMO's are really about.
The Old Timers Guild
Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
All about the fun!
www.oldtimersguild.com
An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it. - Jef Mallett
[quote]Originally posted by BuzWeaver
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world.
Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun".
It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
***************************************************************
The comments below are not directed at you but at those who think VG is/was supposed to be a "hardcore" game.
Vangaurd was never and will never be a "hardcore" game because it was not designed to cater to "hardcore" players with hours to burn or casual players with 1 hour to spare.
As it was stated by Brad and others at Sigil "Vangaurd was/is designed to cater to "Core Gamers". People who aren't casual but also don't spend 6+ hours a day everyday grinding away in the game. It was designed to cater to people who have grown up and have more of a life now but how are willing to set aside 2-4 hours to game.
The only people who say that VG is supposed to be "hardcore" are those who wanted a EQ1 clone with all the afore mention dated and discarded features that the majority of "Core Gamers" disliked in the first place.
http://vs.warcry.com/news/view/67774-Nick-Parkinson-InterviewGames I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Some of my EQ memeries are probably nastalgia. I was a lot younger when I played EQ. On the otherhand the game was fun because it didn't have a lot of the restrictions that bind today's games because people are waiting to exploit them. Games today have to be made with lots of restrictions in order to stop the exploitation of others. When EQ was around MMOs were new territory. Only us computer nerds played them and we didn't have any experience with them. There weren't any gold farmers around. It was a differnt experience that you really can't duplicate today.
Its just like how your years in school were horrible, and yet you still say they were the best years of your life.
You often only remember the good. Like in EQ you remember the nice things, you dont remember the tedium. The fustration of losing things and not finding them. Times when nobody would help you or when things didn't make sense.
There is a reason games aren't like that anymore, and Ill give you a hint. Game designers aren't stupid.
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...
Its just like how your years in school were horrible, and yet you still say they were the best years of your life.
You often only remember the good. Like in EQ you remember the nice things, you dont remember the tedium. The fustration of losing things and not finding them. Times when nobody would help you or when things didn't make sense.
There is a reason games aren't like that anymore, and Ill give you a hint. Game designers aren't stupid.
Game designers are stupid. They are stupid because they are all trying to copy WoW's success and turning out the same tired dummied down games. Icons floating over NPC's heads and no death penalties and unrealistic speedy travel times and mobs color coded and rated so any idiot can tell if they are easy or hard.
Obviously there is an audience for a classic Evequest style game, where realism and difficulty led to challenges and fun, but designers are too busy chasing WoW with blinders on to notice.
Yeah maybe it's because most players have grown up, moved out of their parents home, have gotten jobs and have already "earned" things in real life which are far greater then the rewards that can be found in a virtual game. I can see why most players just want to have fun now because they've already paid their dues and don't feel like being taxed twice in life or in a virtual world.
Funny thing is if EQ1 and those original ideas were so great and not just the fond and delusional day dreams of a person without a life well then EQ1 would still be a top contender. Or better yet those ideas would still be alive today. Or EQ2 would of followed the model set by EQ1 instead of changing in so many ways in order to be financially successful and "fun".
It seems to me that history has proven that "nostalgia" is infarct just that and those supposed "good" things were not what the majority of EQ1 players thought was fun. If anything it was the original social aspect of the first successful 3d MMO that they encountered and the first time they experience of cooperative game play which most people are fond of and not the mindless and repetitive tasks.
I typically don't draw on real life analogies because it should be easy to make the distinction between gaming consequences and real life consequences. If you want to introduce real life, I'd argue that its the Gen Y types who are impatient, jaded and cynical that have introduced their elitist self preoccupied ideology that earning things is an antiquated philosophy for people who linger in 'nostalgia'.
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[quote]Originally posted by BuzWeaver
I typically don't draw on real life analogies because it should be easy to make the distinction between gaming consequences and real life consequences. If you want to introduce real life, I'd argue that its the Gen Y types who are impatient, jaded and cynical that have introduced their elitist self preoccupied ideology that earning things is an antiquated philosophy for people who linger in 'nostalgia'.[/b][/quote][b][quote]Originally posted by M1sf1t
Again most people have fond memories of their first online MMO where they encounter their first social game in which they made/meet their first online friends. This is similar to Munki's high school analogy. Sure high school was a blast. I meet people who I didn't for the first time and made some good friendships etc, but if I had to choose I'd much rather be the adult I am today with my disposable income and the freedom to do what I want when I want instead of somehow trying to relive the past.
I've grown up and so have most gamers when it comes to what they expect from MMO's. This is especially true because the demographic for PC gaming market and especially MMO's as it is still dominated by adults. Hell the average age of your WoW player is between 20-35 and a bunch of them already had prior MMO experiences from EQ1, OU, DAOC, SWG, PlanetSide, etc....
If you want to derail the debate into a tangent of generational flame war just so you can stroke your own ego then go right ahead. I hope it makes you feel better because in reality it has nothing to do with "Generation XYZ" vs "Generation ABC" and everything to do with improved production values and getting more refined game play for your buck.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
[quote]Originally posted by M1sf1t
[b][quote]Originally posted by BuzWeaver
Again most people have fond memories of EQ1 because it was their first online MMO where they encountered their first interactive online social game. A MMO game in which they made/meet their first online friends. This is similar to Munki's high school analogy. Sure high school was a blast. I meet people who I didn't know for the first time and made some good friendships etc. Of course if I had to choose I'd much rather be the adult I am today with my disposable income and have the freedom to do what I want to do, when I want to do it instead of somehow trying to relive the past which for the most part is based on nostalgia.
I've grown up and matured. Most MMO gamers have grown up and matured and they expect more from MMO's. Just look at the demographic for the PC gaming market especially MMO's. It still is dominated by adults. Hell the average age of your WoW player is between 20-35 and a bunch of them already had prior MMO experiences from EQ1, OU, DAOC, SWG, PlanetSide, etc....
If you want to derail the original debate and go off on a tangent centered around a generational flame war then go right ahead. I hope it makes you feel better because in reality it has nothing to do with "Generation XYZ" vs "Generation ABC" and everything to do with improved production values and getting more refined game play for your monthly mmo buck.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
M!sfit I'm curious under 'games you've tried' you don't include EQ. Why? If you haven't played it then it seems a bit silly to comment on the reasons people liked EQ or not.
I know enough about the game to make a comment from having talk to friends who played it to reading articles online about it and understanding the industry.
An outside observer and still can make comments based on their own observations on the subject from a outsiders perspective and conversations from those who have play the game. There is no law anywhere that prevents people from stating their own views on a game just because they haven't played a game. Using your analogy( which is based on a faulty fallacy ) you wouldn't be talk about a lot of things
- "Hey have if you never practiced as a doctor or been a lawyer then don't talk about malpractice lawsuits."
- "Hey have if you never held public office you should not talk about politicians or politics."
- "Hey have if you never driven a NASCAR racing car then you don't have the right to talk about NASCAR until you driven one"
Need I go on ?
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I loved those glory days of eq although I remember a map long before the luclin expansion.
A private EQ server that is the closest thing to classic but better exists.
I am in the game right now; I am medding. lol.
Boycott EA Games. RIP Sim City.