All good replies so far. The intent of the developers pretty much encompassses what is cheating and what is not. Some things are specifically outlined in the EULA, while others are part of the basic design philosophy. Multi boxing for instance can't be controlled effectively, so there is little point for listing it in the EULA. Multiboxing still is considered cheating by most though. Multi boxing would be an example of cheating which doesn't follow design philosophy. Most MMOG's intent is that each character represent a unique real person. Gods and Heroes and Guild Wars have designs which allow for pet type characters to aid your main, but boxing two mains would be cheating. Basically when you multibox you are making yourself more powerful than design intended since you don't have to split the rewards with another real person, wether it's sharing experience gained or items/coin earned. If a MMOG intended multiboxing to be part of the design, they would allow two characters to be controlled by a single account.
Interesting take. Although I don't multi box I wouldn't consider it cheating. As far as I know there is no stipulation that only allows for one paid account per user. So long as both accounts are paid for I don't see any problem. It doesn't seem to me that you would have any greater advantage than 2 or more people sitting in the same room playing on separate accounts and I don't think of that as cheating.
I think the Dev's primary goal is to make a game enjoyable enough so that people are willing to buy it and pay to play it. I would think that if someone enjoyed it enough to buy a second account the Dev's would consider that a testament to how good the game is. Am I missing something?
I think you are. Personally I find it disheartening to encounter what appears to be a group of players, engage them, only to discover that they are soulless bots being played by a single person. It's an immersion killer.
As a primarily soloer, I also take offense to other soloers who artificially enhance their power and abilities thru multiboxing. If you choose to solo, the benefit is you don't have to share what you earn or gain, and you are self reliant, but you lose the benefit of other classes and skills, spells, etc.. That is the design trade off, to be limited to your class and your set of skills. Multiboxers however circumvent that design philosophy. They want the benefits of soloing, yet use bots to access other skills, spells, etc. in order to increase their power. It's cheating.
Multiboxers don't enjoy the game more than traditional players. They enjoy gaining an advantage over other players. Like I said, if it was intended to be part of the game design, then a single account would be able to control multiple characters at once.
If by using bots your mean 3rd party software to control a character for you I totally agree. If some guy wants to run 2 pc and control 2 payed characters its fine as far asIm concerned. I guess I no longer consider him a soloist, he is infact a group controlled by one person using the ingame functions. I could see how you may not like it, I guess I could even see it as unsportsman like, but straight up cheating... I wouldn't go that far.
As far as being an immersion killer, well I dont know what to tell you. Ive had many thing break immersion for me. There isnt much you or I can do about that but to play a single player game. Honestly alot of times I play with 2 other guys and we are all on voicechat, we totally ignore anyone else. We're respectfull in our playstyle but none of us reply to /tells or group requests. We're not bots we're just dicks. There will always be folks that do things that you or I dont like. Stupid freewill.
I guess we're just on opposite side of this one. /shrug
I think multi-boxing is cheating. One player in WoW controlling 1 priest and 4 mages at the same time and kicks butt in pvp. Some say this isn’t cheating. I say it is, and if I saw the player I would just leave the area or log out.
A player like this have a massive advantage: communication and one button spell coordination for 5 characters. This is actually an, allowed by the devs, form of cheating.
I think multi-boxing is cheating. One player in WoW controlling 1 priest and 4 mages at the same time and kicks butt in pvp. Some say this isn’t cheating. I say it is, and if I saw the player I would just leave the area or log out.
A player like this have a massive advantage: communication and one button spell coordination for 5 characters. This is actually an, allowed by the devs, form of cheating.
I used to multi-box in DAOC to have a buff-bot at a nearby keep, which did give me a huge advantage vs an unbuffed player. But the grossest form of multi-box cheating was from a player i saw who created 7 characters of the same time (Animist) and linked them to a single keyboard. Since this was a pet casting class, (that could cast like 15 pets at a time) imagine the mayhem this player could cause all by himself by virtually instacasting 105 shrooms (pets) in a given spot.... no one could come near him w/o a hugely coordinated effort.
Other forms of cheating include:
1) Botting
2) Gold buying (or selling)
3) Line of sight exploits, against either mobs or players
4) In game Dups/hacks of items or gold
5) Spying (i.e. if realms are not permitted to communicate, creating a character on the other realm just to spy on the other side.
6) Radar in game (as a 3rd party add on)
7) Interface exploits, such as listing an item on an AH for 1000 gold when the going rate is 100 gold hoping to catch someone unaware.
8) Bait and switch exploits...offering an item of low value in place of a higher one, usually because it graphically looks the same or gets switched out somehow.
I could think of 10 more probably....but you guys get the idea.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating. If what you're doing makes the game suck for others, it's bad programming.
- Phos
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
Originally posted by Gammit100 Originally posted by Phos If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating. If what you're doing makes the game suck for others, it's bad programming.- Phos
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law? No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content. A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating.
If what you're doing makes the game suck for others, it's bad programming. - Phos
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
The question was is it cheating or not, if you play Monopoly with friends and steal from the bank when no-one'slooking then it's cheating. No different than duping creds in SWG or using an aimbot in BF:2142, he wasn't commenting on the morality or wether it was noble or not, just giving an answer and a metaphor for those that don't seem to understand.
Out of interest what would you consider cheating in an MMO? Since it's a game like any other game and you must agree that people can cheat at any game wether it be a virtual online world or a game of chess. Since the answer "If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating" doesn't seem to hold true for any game with rules, virtual or otherwise.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Games as with all activities in life require constraint on the part of the player. There is a difference between skillfull play and exploitation. That line can sometimes be rather blurry though. We all have to make the choice whether a action is a exploit or not.
If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating.
If what you're doing makes the game suck for others, it's bad programming. - Phos
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
Cheating and morals are two totally different things, people who cheat in real life also cheat in games.
There really is 2 types of cheatings, ones that effect your experience of the game (getting into places you shouldn't be eg GM island in WoW and wall climbing) and thoses that effect other peoples experience: (EG wall climbing in BattleGrounds, money buying, exploiting money bugs/item bugs/auction house bugs, aim bots, farming 'bots' etc etc)
The experience cheating isn't bad, it just possibly gets you banned. The other peoples experience ruins their experience of the game and is not only cheating but anti-social.
MMORPG's are, believe it or not, social interaction, and so cheating that effects this aspect are not the 'driving 5 mph faster down the motorways' its the 'stealing and rape' version.
Its the fact the game isn't a single player game that you have to have some morals. Obviously the internet strips alot of people down to their basest values, and hence why there are a lot of *swear word that means the plural of excreta* out there that want to ruin peoples experience for their own selfish values.
Anyway sorry for the diversion off the main topic 'What is cheating in MMORPG's'
1. Use of unintended 3rd party programs (automation macros, bots etc.) that gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
2. Use of bugs and exploits (dupes, gameloop holes, bugs) that clear gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
3. Use of program hacks (maphacks, game geometry collision remover, etc.), memory alteration programs (speedhacks, packet interceptors) that gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
As for using in-game skills/spells in ways that aren't intended by the game developers, it is NOT cheating but it's usually frowned down by other people..
Originally posted by Agricola1 The question was is it cheating or not, if you play Monopoly with friends and steal from the bank when no-one'slooking then it's cheating. No different than duping creds in SWG or using an aimbot in BF:2142, he wasn't commenting on the morality or wether it was noble or not, just giving an answer and a metaphor for those that don't seem to understand.Out of interest what would you consider cheating in an MMO? Since it's a game like any other game and you must agree that people can cheat at any game wether it be a virtual online world or a game of chess. Since the answer "If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating" doesn't seem to hold true for any game with rules, virtual or otherwise.
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit: - CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.) - Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
The question was is it cheating or not, if you play Monopoly with friends and steal from the bank when no-one'slooking then it's cheating. No different than duping creds in SWG or using an aimbot in BF:2142, he wasn't commenting on the morality or wether it was noble or not, just giving an answer and a metaphor for those that don't seem to understand.
Out of interest what would you consider cheating in an MMO? Since it's a game like any other game and you must agree that people can cheat at any game wether it be a virtual online world or a game of chess. Since the answer "If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating" doesn't seem to hold true for any game with rules, virtual or otherwise.
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit:
- CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.)
- Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
OK I understand where your coming from now, what your saying is that you recognise the rules of an online game just the same as everyone else. I think what your saying is that in an MMO you don't see cheating as immoral, since the onus is on the DEVs to police the playerbase and any cheating is therefore their responsibility.
To some degree I agree with what your saying since we're dealing with an anonymus virtual world, whereas face to face playing Monopoly or cards the consequences are much more dire. I do believe that say in BF: 2142 the company EA are responsible soley for policing and preventing cheating.
However although it's an anonymus medium it still doesn't change my attitude towards cheats, on the internet or otherwise. In my opinion breaking the rules is cheating, people who cheat in my opinion are w*****s. If you wish to justify your reasons by saying everyone else does it, fine. In my and many other peoples opinion just because someone else behaves like a w***** (online or not) doesn't mean it's ok for me to do the same. If you say you do it because it's more fun than not cheating, well in my opinion that means you just enjoy being a w*****.
If a game isn't fun without cheating, it's probably a crap game wouldn't you agree?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Actually, I'm probably more likely to quit a game if everyone around me is cheating. I don't really know how to stop people cheating and exploiting in games... maybe we can't. I can't help thinking that a most people would have a more satisfying experience and that the game would last longer if they played the way the creators intended it to be played. I don't know, Phos, people get enjoyment in different ways. I don't agree that you are a bad person because you cheat in MMOs, but I do believe that sort of behaviour is wrong. I've never cheated in MMOs... well, at least not knowingly, as you said... but I've cheated in single player games. There have been games that I've played the life out of and used a saved game editor or the console to up my stats or heal myself or something, just to finish up the game. I do it mostly when the game has gone on for so long that I've become bored with it. But, since I'm the only one playing, I'm the only one affected. (yes, I'm ashamed to admit it but not when I'm doing it! )
I believe cheating in MMOs to be a diservice to both the people who play alongside you and the developers who created the game. Having said that, I would never insinuate you are a bad person because of it. It is a trivial thing compared to what you do as a person in RL. I have a relative who cheats in MMOs, too. I might "tsk, tsk" him for it but I don't love him less or consider him to be an evil boy. In fact, I KNOW he's a wonderful, lovely lad with a huge heart and a sweet disposition.
Actually, I'm probably more likely to quit a game if everyone around me is cheating. I don't really know how to stop people cheating and exploiting in games... maybe we can't. I can't help thinking that a most people would have a more satisfying experience and that the game would last longer if they played the way the creators intended it to be played. I don't know, Phos, people get enjoyment in different ways. I don't agree that you are a bad person because you cheat in MMOs, but I do believe that sort of behaviour is wrong. I've never cheated in MMOs... well, at least not knowingly, as you said... but I've cheated in single player games. There have been games that I've played the life out of and used a saved game editor or the console to up my stats or heal myself or something, just to finish up the game. I do it mostly when the game has gone on for so long that I've become bored with it. But, since I'm the only one playing, I'm the only one affected. (yes, I'm ashamed to admit it but not when I'm doing it! ) I believe cheating in MMOs to be a diservice to both the people who play alongside you and the developers who created the game. Having said that, I would never insinuate you are a bad person because of it. It is a trivial thing compared to what you do as a person in RL. I have a relative who cheats in MMOs, too. I might "tsk, tsk" him for it but I don't love him less or consider him to be an evil boy. In fact, I KNOW he's a wonderful, lovely lad with a huge heart and a sweet disposition.
Well I wasn't really suggesting that Phos was a bad person, rather just explaining the position on that cheating effects people other than yourself.
And yes, I've cheated on a few games I've grown tired on after years just to complete it...but still felt bad about it, probably why I haven't completed half the 500+ games I have :P I don't include strategy games as if you win you have finished and I don't cheat on strategy games!
The cheater will always cheat. If every cheat ina mmorpg then the cheater will try to cheat more. The cheater is a person that just wnat to be better / cooler/ whatever. Why?, imo is becouse he dont have a real life. Anyway, I think cheating is stupid, if you cheat you loose the fun part of the game. Will you pay money to have your char maxed? and when you have your char maxed, why not pay to have all the raids done and all the uber stuff won?. Then you can pay to get everybody pwned in PVP.
Well, i think is nouf, I dont understand cheating, is just loose the fun. The people who cheat then end in the mmorpg forums 3 months later telling us of all how bored they are of that game cose it sucks. No the game dont sucks, your playstyle suck cose you cheat and you breake the game.
The last game i cheated on was Sim City 2. I found a cheat to get free money, I got tons of free money, I builded the bigger city posible and then deleted the game. This is how i feel about cheating
¿What is Cheating? Anything that you know was not thought to be done the way you are doing. You know when you cheat becouse you are cheating.
Also note that if you caught a cheater it's not your place to try to stop them. Even if you succeed in throwing a wrench into their schemes what's stopping them from using it again and on another person. The best and most productive thing is to chronicle their cheats by either screenshotting it or you can use FRAPS to capture the moment they try to cheat. Most game developers frown on players cheating in their game and if provided with sufficient evidence will probably do something about it (screenshots doesn't provide enough evidence as they can be easily doctored, while video on the other hand is usually a better piece of evidence as it is very hard to doctor/edit a video).
Originally posted by alakram The cheater will always cheat. If every cheat ina mmorpg then the cheater will try to cheat more. The cheater is a person that just wnat to be better / cooler/ whatever. Why?, imo is becouse he dont have a real life. Anyway, I think cheating is stupid, if you cheat you loose the fun part of the game. Will you pay money to have your char maxed? and when you have your char maxed, why not pay to have all the raids done and all the uber stuff won?. Then you can pay to get everybody pwned in PVP. Well, i think is nouf, I dont understand cheating, is just loose the fun. The people who cheat then end in the mmorpg forums 3 months later telling us of all how bored they are of that game cose it sucks. No the game dont sucks, your playstyle suck cose you cheat and you breake the game. The last game i cheated on was Sim City 2. I found a cheat to get free money, I got tons of free money, I builded the bigger city posible and then deleted the game. This is how i feel about cheating ¿What is Cheating? Anything that you know was not thought to be done the way you are doing. You know when you cheat becouse you are cheating.
I used to hate cheaters too. I once played a game for a month to get enough money to buy something I wanted in-game. Then I saw someone cheating to get that same amount of money in 5 minutes. He got the same gear I got, and then some more that was better. I felt mad, and then realized he was going to get away with it because the devs didn't care. Now I cheat every time I can, just so I can compete with the top-end players. Why is that okay? Because top-end players either cheated to get there or they have enough time on their hands to play every day for 16 hours a day to stay ahead of us. Well, I already have a job and I play MMOs to have FUN. I won't play for 16 hours a day for 6 months straight just to get to a position where I can finally enjoy the game and be competetive.
If you inflate the economy or have mega-uber gear from cheating or playing the game like it's a freaking full time job, I have a decision to make: A) Quit because the game is gear/money dependant instead of skill-based Become a hardcore raider for 6 months like it's a job C) CHEAT!
The choice for me is simple. I bought the game for fun.
For those of you who say cheaters just don't know how to play? I turn it around on you and say this: The only reason you're any good is because of your gear, and the only reason you hate cheaters is because they create an even playing field and you hate a fair fight. But hey, if you can only have fun by dominating everyone else? And you can only dominate others by sitting at home and playing every day while I have to go to work? Then don't play a game with me! Because I'll cheat to get the same gear you have and I'll fight you fairly and win, and you'll cry because you thought you were the only one with uber-gear!!!
I still blame it all on the devs, though. They shouldn't have made a game where you believed you were better than me only because of the gear you have. They should make a game where cheating isn't possible. They should insta-ban cheaters on the spot. I want a game where cheating isn't possible. I also want a game where full-time gamers with no life can't get a leg up over the rest of us. But until then, I'll just cheat to keep it fair.
Also... please use a spell checker and/or grammar checker before posting. I think I'm dyslexic after reading your post.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
The question was is it cheating or not, if you play Monopoly with friends and steal from the bank when no-one'slooking then it's cheating. No different than duping creds in SWG or using an aimbot in BF:2142, he wasn't commenting on the morality or wether it was noble or not, just giving an answer and a metaphor for those that don't seem to understand.
Out of interest what would you consider cheating in an MMO? Since it's a game like any other game and you must agree that people can cheat at any game wether it be a virtual online world or a game of chess. Since the answer "If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating" doesn't seem to hold true for any game with rules, virtual or otherwise.
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit:
- CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.)
- Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
So here comes the real question that I must have answered. In those games that you have cheated in, how many have you reported the bugs/exploits in so they can be fixed?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Good question. All of them. Every single one, regardless if it was in beta or it was dying. Funny thing... when I was doing the biznatch exploit in SWG, I reported it. Then the GM saw me doing it along with a bunch of other people hiding under bushes and killing the biznatches. He didn't ban any of us. Just gave warning after warning after warning.
- Phos
AAH! A troll fire! Quick, pour some Kool-Aid on it!!!
Comments
using a program that actually alters game data. Bots, for instance.
Interesting take. Although I don't multi box I wouldn't consider it cheating. As far as I know there is no stipulation that only allows for one paid account per user. So long as both accounts are paid for I don't see any problem. It doesn't seem to me that you would have any greater advantage than 2 or more people sitting in the same room playing on separate accounts and I don't think of that as cheating.
I think the Dev's primary goal is to make a game enjoyable enough so that people are willing to buy it and pay to play it. I would think that if someone enjoyed it enough to buy a second account the Dev's would consider that a testament to how good the game is. Am I missing something?
I think you are. Personally I find it disheartening to encounter what appears to be a group of players, engage them, only to discover that they are soulless bots being played by a single person. It's an immersion killer.
As a primarily soloer, I also take offense to other soloers who artificially enhance their power and abilities thru multiboxing. If you choose to solo, the benefit is you don't have to share what you earn or gain, and you are self reliant, but you lose the benefit of other classes and skills, spells, etc.. That is the design trade off, to be limited to your class and your set of skills. Multiboxers however circumvent that design philosophy. They want the benefits of soloing, yet use bots to access other skills, spells, etc. in order to increase their power. It's cheating.
Multiboxers don't enjoy the game more than traditional players. They enjoy gaining an advantage over other players. Like I said, if it was intended to be part of the game design, then a single account would be able to control multiple characters at once.
If by using bots your mean 3rd party software to control a character for you I totally agree. If some guy wants to run 2 pc and control 2 payed characters its fine as far asIm concerned. I guess I no longer consider him a soloist, he is infact a group controlled by one person using the ingame functions. I could see how you may not like it, I guess I could even see it as unsportsman like, but straight up cheating... I wouldn't go that far.
As far as being an immersion killer, well I dont know what to tell you. Ive had many thing break immersion for me. There isnt much you or I can do about that but to play a single player game. Honestly alot of times I play with 2 other guys and we are all on voicechat, we totally ignore anyone else. We're respectfull in our playstyle but none of us reply to /tells or group requests. We're not bots we're just dicks. There will always be folks that do things that you or I dont like. Stupid freewill.
I guess we're just on opposite side of this one. /shrug
I think multi-boxing is cheating. One player in WoW controlling 1 priest and 4 mages at the same time and kicks butt in pvp. Some say this isn’t cheating. I say it is, and if I saw the player I would just leave the area or log out.
A player like this have a massive advantage: communication and one button spell coordination for 5 characters. This is actually an, allowed by the devs, form of cheating.
what about 'Wall-Fearing", as is EQ1?
mheh...
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Other forms of cheating include:
1) Botting
2) Gold buying (or selling)
3) Line of sight exploits, against either mobs or players
4) In game Dups/hacks of items or gold
5) Spying (i.e. if realms are not permitted to communicate, creating a character on the other realm just to spy on the other side.
6) Radar in game (as a 3rd party add on)
7) Interface exploits, such as listing an item on an AH for 1000 gold when the going rate is 100 gold hoping to catch someone unaware.
8) Bait and switch exploits...offering an item of low value in place of a higher one, usually because it graphically looks the same or gets switched out somehow.
I could think of 10 more probably....but you guys get the idea.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
The question was is it cheating or not, if you play Monopoly with friends and steal from the bank when no-one'slooking then it's cheating. No different than duping creds in SWG or using an aimbot in BF:2142, he wasn't commenting on the morality or wether it was noble or not, just giving an answer and a metaphor for those that don't seem to understand.
Out of interest what would you consider cheating in an MMO? Since it's a game like any other game and you must agree that people can cheat at any game wether it be a virtual online world or a game of chess. Since the answer "If you can find a way to do it, it's not cheating" doesn't seem to hold true for any game with rules, virtual or otherwise.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Games as with all activities in life require constraint on the part of the player. There is a difference between skillfull play and exploitation. That line can sometimes be rather blurry though. We all have to make the choice whether a action is a exploit or not.
If I can find a way to drive 30 mph over the speed limit and not get caught, am I not breaking the law?
No programming is 100% sound. I'd rather the player-base doesn't look for exploits in the programming, so that the developers can focus on providing new content.
A person's character isn't defined by how he/she acts in front of others, but how he/she acts when nobody is looking. So are you a good witch, or a bad witch?
Wow, I just totally disagree with this. We're talking about a video game, not real life. Real life comparisons are ridiculous.
If a game is poorly programmed, and people are getting rich from it (or getting gear or whatever)... then people will do it en mass. You'll just fall behind if you don't do it too. (early days of SWG is a good example of this.) If you just want to play for fun then you can just TRY to ignore the exploiters. But eventually you'll be affected by the impact on the economy or by the cheating. And you can just cross your fingers and hope the exploiters don't hunt you (and other green players) down for sport.
Being an idealist in a video game is noble but stupid if you want to be competetive or continue to have fun and be able to participate in the economy, etc. Be a realist. Stake out your claim in the game if you love it, or go to a game with better programming if you don't want/know how to exploit.
These are not my views about real life. I won't get into that. This is about MMOs.
- Phos
Cheating and morals are two totally different things, people who cheat in real life also cheat in games.
There really is 2 types of cheatings, ones that effect your experience of the game (getting into places you shouldn't be eg GM island in WoW and wall climbing) and thoses that effect other peoples experience: (EG wall climbing in BattleGrounds, money buying, exploiting money bugs/item bugs/auction house bugs, aim bots, farming 'bots' etc etc)
The experience cheating isn't bad, it just possibly gets you banned. The other peoples experience ruins their experience of the game and is not only cheating but anti-social.
MMORPG's are, believe it or not, social interaction, and so cheating that effects this aspect are not the 'driving 5 mph faster down the motorways' its the 'stealing and rape' version.
Its the fact the game isn't a single player game that you have to have some morals. Obviously the internet strips alot of people down to their basest values, and hence why there are a lot of *swear word that means the plural of excreta* out there that want to ruin peoples experience for their own selfish values.
Anyway sorry for the diversion off the main topic 'What is cheating in MMORPG's'
My definition of cheating is simple:
1. Use of unintended 3rd party programs (automation macros, bots etc.) that gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
2. Use of bugs and exploits (dupes, gameloop holes, bugs) that clear gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
3. Use of program hacks (maphacks, game geometry collision remover, etc.), memory alteration programs (speedhacks, packet interceptors) that gives you a clear game advantage over other players.
As for using in-game skills/spells in ways that aren't intended by the game developers, it is NOT cheating but it's usually frowned down by other people..
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit:
- CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.)
- Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit:
- CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.)
- Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
OK I understand where your coming from now, what your saying is that you recognise the rules of an online game just the same as everyone else. I think what your saying is that in an MMO you don't see cheating as immoral, since the onus is on the DEVs to police the playerbase and any cheating is therefore their responsibility.
To some degree I agree with what your saying since we're dealing with an anonymus virtual world, whereas face to face playing Monopoly or cards the consequences are much more dire. I do believe that say in BF: 2142 the company EA are responsible soley for policing and preventing cheating.
However although it's an anonymus medium it still doesn't change my attitude towards cheats, on the internet or otherwise. In my opinion breaking the rules is cheating, people who cheat in my opinion are w*****s. If you wish to justify your reasons by saying everyone else does it, fine. In my and many other peoples opinion just because someone else behaves like a w***** (online or not) doesn't mean it's ok for me to do the same. If you say you do it because it's more fun than not cheating, well in my opinion that means you just enjoy being a w*****.
If a game isn't fun without cheating, it's probably a crap game wouldn't you agree?
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Actually, I'm probably more likely to quit a game if everyone around me is cheating. I don't really know how to stop people cheating and exploiting in games... maybe we can't. I can't help thinking that a most people would have a more satisfying experience and that the game would last longer if they played the way the creators intended it to be played. I don't know, Phos, people get enjoyment in different ways. I don't agree that you are a bad person because you cheat in MMOs, but I do believe that sort of behaviour is wrong. I've never cheated in MMOs... well, at least not knowingly, as you said... but I've cheated in single player games. There have been games that I've played the life out of and used a saved game editor or the console to up my stats or heal myself or something, just to finish up the game. I do it mostly when the game has gone on for so long that I've become bored with it. But, since I'm the only one playing, I'm the only one affected. (yes, I'm ashamed to admit it but not when I'm doing it!
)
I believe cheating in MMOs to be a diservice to both the people who play alongside you and the developers who created the game. Having said that, I would never insinuate you are a bad person because of it. It is a trivial thing compared to what you do as a person in RL. I have a relative who cheats in MMOs, too. I might "tsk, tsk" him for it but I don't love him less or consider him to be an evil boy. In fact, I KNOW he's a wonderful, lovely lad with a huge heart and a sweet disposition.
Well I wasn't really suggesting that Phos was a bad person, rather just explaining the position on that cheating effects people other than yourself.
And yes, I've cheated on a few games I've grown tired on after years just to complete it...but still felt bad about it, probably why I haven't completed half the 500+ games I have :P I don't include strategy games as if you win you have finished and I don't cheat on strategy games!
The cheater will always cheat. If every cheat ina mmorpg then the cheater will try to cheat more. The cheater is a person that just wnat to be better / cooler/ whatever. Why?, imo is becouse he dont have a real life. Anyway, I think cheating is stupid, if you cheat you loose the fun part of the game. Will you pay money to have your char maxed? and when you have your char maxed, why not pay to have all the raids done and all the uber stuff won?. Then you can pay to get everybody pwned in PVP.
Well, i think is nouf, I dont understand cheating, is just loose the fun. The people who cheat then end in the mmorpg forums 3 months later telling us of all how bored they are of that game cose it sucks. No the game dont sucks, your playstyle suck cose you cheat and you breake the game.
The last game i cheated on was Sim City 2. I found a cheat to get free money, I got tons of free money, I builded the bigger city posible and then deleted the game. This is how i feel about cheating
¿What is Cheating? Anything that you know was not thought to be done the way you are doing. You know when you cheat becouse you are cheating.
Also note that if you caught a cheater it's not your place to try to stop them. Even if you succeed in throwing a wrench into their schemes what's stopping them from using it again and on another person. The best and most productive thing is to chronicle their cheats by either screenshotting it or you can use FRAPS to capture the moment they try to cheat. Most game developers frown on players cheating in their game and if provided with sufficient evidence will probably do something about it (screenshots doesn't provide enough evidence as they can be easily doctored, while video on the other hand is usually a better piece of evidence as it is very hard to doctor/edit a video).
I used to hate cheaters too. I once played a game for a month to get enough money to buy something I wanted in-game. Then I saw someone cheating to get that same amount of money in 5 minutes. He got the same gear I got, and then some more that was better. I felt mad, and then realized he was going to get away with it because the devs didn't care. Now I cheat every time I can, just so I can compete with the top-end players. Why is that okay? Because top-end players either cheated to get there or they have enough time on their hands to play every day for 16 hours a day to stay ahead of us. Well, I already have a job and I play MMOs to have FUN. I won't play for 16 hours a day for 6 months straight just to get to a position where I can finally enjoy the game and be competetive.
If you inflate the economy or have mega-uber gear from cheating or playing the game like it's a freaking full time job, I have a decision to make:
Become a hardcore raider for 6 months like it's a job
A) Quit because the game is gear/money dependant instead of skill-based
C) CHEAT!
The choice for me is simple. I bought the game for fun.
For those of you who say cheaters just don't know how to play? I turn it around on you and say this: The only reason you're any good is because of your gear, and the only reason you hate cheaters is because they create an even playing field and you hate a fair fight. But hey, if you can only have fun by dominating everyone else? And you can only dominate others by sitting at home and playing every day while I have to go to work? Then don't play a game with me! Because I'll cheat to get the same gear you have and I'll fight you fairly and win, and you'll cry because you thought you were the only one with uber-gear!!!
I still blame it all on the devs, though. They shouldn't have made a game where you believed you were better than me only because of the gear you have. They should make a game where cheating isn't possible. They should insta-ban cheaters on the spot. I want a game where cheating isn't possible. I also want a game where full-time gamers with no life can't get a leg up over the rest of us. But until then, I'll just cheat to keep it fair.
Also... please use a spell checker and/or grammar checker before posting. I think I'm dyslexic after reading your post.
- Phos
Okay, this thread sparked a conversation with my girlfriend, who agrees with most of you. I respect all of your opinions but I guess I just stand alone in my opinion.
Let me clarify a bit:
- CHEATING: Anything you do to violate the EULA (even buying currency on ebay.)
- Right vs Wrong (in an MMO): If you can do it, there's nothing wrong with doing it. (even if it's 'cheating.')
I wouldn't cheat during a family game of Monopoly and I don't break the law IRL. But I've exploited and 'cheated' in almost every MMO I've played (and so do most of you probably without even knowing it!)
Without differentiating between 'innocent cheating' and 'malicious cheating,' let's simplify the entire argument. Let's assume everyone (except a small group of players) is perfect and doesn't cheat (we're talking about in an MMO here.) MMORPGs are coded computer programs with anonymity, economies, gear, competitive PvP, ganking, etc. MMORPGs are bought to have fun. If a small group of others are going to duplicate items or currency to get ahead, causing inflation and unfair PvP, then I'm going to do it too!
I once played SOCOM online without cheating, but everyone around me was cheating (invincable, endless ammo, flying in the air, etc.) I felt stupid for not doing it too! I got killed every 2 seconds! I started cheating and guess what... I had more fun!
Haven't any of you quit a game because it was impossible to get the good gear everyone else seems to have, and you can't really PvP because of it? But others (who cheat) all have tons of money and good gear and pwn you all the time? Well, go to ebay or dupe some stuff, and maybe you'll start having fun too! (or just quit the poorly programmed game.)
If you buy an MMORPG and there is rampant cheating going on, don't blame the cheaters. Blame the developers. I'm just logging on to have fun after work, and if I have to cheat and exploit to stay competetive, then so be it!
EULAs? They're a joke. I've never been banned, and I've exploited in many games.
- Phos
So here comes the real question that I must have answered. In those games that you have cheated in, how many have you reported the bugs/exploits in so they can be fixed?
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Good question. All of them. Every single one, regardless if it was in beta or it was dying. Funny thing... when I was doing the biznatch exploit in SWG, I reported it. Then the GM saw me doing it along with a bunch of other people hiding under bushes and killing the biznatches. He didn't ban any of us. Just gave warning after warning after warning.
- Phos