Some people use cars to get from point A to point B, some people use them for buisness and there are people who like to go fast, realy fast, is it so hard to understand?
I can speak from personal expirience that I don't drive fast because it's safe, but because of the adrenaline rush, that's why I bungee and parachute jump too, so instead of feeling all inferior and defensive why don't you people just accept God didn't make you to be cool, the world needs accountants and pencil pushers too.
Man, it feels good to passivly insult people over forums.
I think there are a number of good possibilities for PVP gains and penalties.
a lot of the PVP crowd just want a larger player base to gank on. What fun is that really about as much risk for a level 70 killing a level 10 in WoW. Not very sporting and is it really all that fun to be an a-hole. (for some I guess it is)
First I do like death penalties. No risk means less adrenaline which lowers the fun factor. Death penalties can be for PvE & PvP.
I am not a fan of full looting either. That is not so fun for the gankee.
Suggestion. Ganking is tantamount to committing murder. So classify RPK as evil. Give people a karma/alignment stat. Make moving your karma/alignment to good time consuming and difficult. Also provide certain penalties to evil people. Most fantasy RPGs are under the impression we are supposed to be good. So make towns and NPCs that hunt evil players. Post rewards for killing evil players etc.
Note, you also put the onus (penalty) of PKing on the attacker of non evil players. Obviously attacking evil players first is allowable. Scale the karma/alignment shift based on the level difference between the attacker and the victim. So very little shift if you attack someone your own or higher level and a huge shift if you are killing newbies and you are at the level cap.
Next Looting, no one likes to lose their gear, so you make equipped items no drop or make no drops items readily available. so all you would really lose is some cash and some loot you gathered off of mobs. Pretty much player housing with a recall system to it would make it possible for you to protect those items you gain that you really want to protect. you recall and drop them in your housing.
I think FFA PvP can work and I played AC darktide server for 3 years and was oh so very happy when I finally got my no drop armor/hat/boots/ never did get no drop gauntlets. and I kept a starter wand for a no drop weapon.
My biggest complaint was no penalty was afforded to gankers. What shopkeeper would let their customers get killed while shopping. That was where most of my deaths occurred. I was inside a building buying spell comps and with the radar reduced in buildings you could easily get blindsided and killed. Add a karma/alignment system and let people play evil characters. Just afford them the same protections as murderers and evil monsters deserve. NONE. People only behave if there is a penalty.
sonofseth, I think that is exactly the point that the OP was trying to make, and the very same that I was trying to make. You enjoy death defying endeavors because your very life is on the line. In an mmo, then, would PVP not be more fun, even for you, if the penalties were harsher, and for you, judging by the things that you wrote, the best penalty for you would be Perma-death for your PVP'ing toon. Correct?
This is a spurious analogy. No betting in poker is like PvP with no attacks. Its pointless.
Now if you want to say that PvP with no item loot is like a penny-anty poker game with a pot limit, ok that is probably a fairly good analogy. But then item loot PvP in a game like WoW is like high stake no-limit poker where you can lose your entire life savings. Many people play one and very very few play the other.
You can try to invalidate no loot pvp all you want but when you do the analogies right you find that most people are playing poker with very little risk and they only watch high risk stuff on TV. Just like in the MMO world as well.
It should be obvious that most people are risk averse, is this really that hard to believe? They do a little bit to make things interesting and that is it.
K GOOFBALLS. PVP IS JUST PART OF ONLINE GAMING, THERE ARE NEVER ANY REAL STAKES INVOLVED. YOU DIE AND LOSE XP/GEAR/FAKE MONEY..SO WHAT? DID YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOU LOST THE BIG BATTLE?
GET A LIFE NUBS.
QUIT THINKING LIKE THIS GAME YOU ARE PLAYING IS RL.
K GOOFBALLS. PVP IS JUST PART OF ONLINE GAMING, THERE ARE NEVER ANY REAL STAKES INVOLVED. YOU DIE AND LOSE XP/GEAR/FAKE MONEY..SO WHAT? DID YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOU LOST THE BIG BATTLE? GET A LIFE NUBS. QUIT THINKING LIKE THIS GAME YOU ARE PLAYING IS RL.
Hmm that goes both ways. People want to play the GAME because it is a GAME. They do not want to treat it like a Job. Which is what happens when you combine a Loot Based game with Full loot. If they make a new game with a Loot system more similar to AC1 then full loot works great. Since all of hte loot is pretty much random and drops based on value of the loot. That gives you the ability to choose whether to take that expensive sword into battle or opt for a lesser valued one that is a tad less powerful. Plus it made it a lot easier to replace your lost loot.
An EQ style game with full loot is nothing but a headache waiting to happen. They either need to make gear not matter that much and then full loot or no loot and gear makes a huge difference.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
For me PvP is about the excitement and challenge you get from fighting another human being. That's why I like FPS games, that's why I like pvp in MMOs. Most MMO players don't want to lose hours of hard work because a gank squad came along. I think hardcore rulesets actually discourage PvP for this reason. Hardcore PVP encourages ganking and griefing and most players avoid it like the plague. I have no problem with seperate servers like you say, but there is a reason that most games don't have hardcore pvp servers: Because so few people want one that it just isn't profitable to have one.
Well said, and I agree. I dont have a problem with more hardcore rulesets at all, if that ends tireless debates. I am all for alternative rulesets!
I dont want to loose hours of hard work to gankers either, personally. I play poker often, but mostly without money or so few its only symbolic. (A few cents.) I just dont like to play for money. My dad worked in a casino, and I have seen to many ruin themselves to play for money.
If combat is exciting, I dont need additional threats to feel excited, and not additional penality to feel my death as failure.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Ok,.. I will assume you are being sarcastic if not...
This goes to the heart of the problem that most that caim to want PVP but are not intrested in real battles seem to never be willing to accept.
sex with a condom = responsibility, especally in accepting it for your own actions.
Now since EVE has been touted as an example of an open PVP game, lets look at it. Can you attack anyone anywhere, yes but you pay the price. Yes, CCP weneed out and gave in to those that do not want to accept responsibility for their actions but reducing the cost and lessening the responsibility but, if you attack some one in high sec you get concorted. In low sec you just take a sec hit (which actully used to mean something)
The bottom line, no game company, not even the PK loveing CCP will have Only a FFA PPV game as there are just not enough players (that need the free kills) to support it.
To the OP, while PVP can be an accet to a game and can realy rase the stakes (I played on D2s hard core servers all the time), player Looting does not enhance the game but in fact can ruin it. Blizzard understood this a long time ago and most if not all companies understand it to day. The reasion is that when you make death to big a hit what always happens is that the gank squads will crawl out of the wood work and begin to ruin the game for everyone else.
While you will hear the guys brag about how many noobs they have killed I have yet to hear one player say how they just loved getting killed molested and robbed and how much that wanted to repete the experince.
Does a harsh death penelty help a game?
No..
Some of the best games I have ever played were MW4, tribes and lately bf2 games. What makes these games fun is winning or loosing by only 3 points. This is because both sides had fun. Think about the last time you played football or basket ball and when was the most fun you had. It was the game that the teams were so evenly matched that you both had to work and fight for every point.
On the flip side most people who cry out for steeper penelties do so because they want to be a pro foot ball team against a ltl league team. Outclassing (and out weighing) them is not enough they want to be able to stop the kids into the ground breaking as many bones as possable. But it's ok.. because it PVP.. and they get to keep the pampers.
The point of any and all games is not just to win, but to have fun. Not just fun for 1 person or 1 group but fun for all.
Very well said. I love pvp games. My whole guild is pretty pvp centric. Sure some of them love the looting idea, some don't. For me, it's all about that all-mighty "W". I like to win, I like competition. I have a fight with you and barely win. Now that's fun. You lose gear from being beat, and there goes my competition. Why wouldn't I want my enemies, to stay at their peak. It makes crushing them beneath my hill when we are on even ground, oh so much more satisfying. Yet if I lose it will force me to step my game up, not say oh damn I lost I better go farm for more gear ala if there were looting. Real pvpers don't need looting, real pvpers need challenging opponents.
I want your life not your gear. If I have to loot something let me chop a hand or ear or head, and mount it on my wall beside all the other people that I killed.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Well, millions of people play FPS's online with pretty much no risk at all except a respawn timer, so I'd say that the condom analogy is pretty much false.
yes but I dont have to pay $15 to play any of my FPS. I want more depth in an MMORPG then that. And even in Rainbow 6: vegas ppl stay dead when you kill them (on the no respawn server). In unreal tournament when I kill people they lose their buffs and I get to loot their guns so what you say not true across the board
in lost planet xbox360 you lose rank for dying and Halo 2 de-levels you for deaths.
So what u say is not true for all the good shooters I tend to play.
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points
#1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP
#2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want.
#3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server.
#4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
#6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points #1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP #2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want. #3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server. #4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items #5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other. #6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points #1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP #2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want. #3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server. #4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items #5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other. #6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points #1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP #2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want. #3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server. #4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items #5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other. #6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think.
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight?
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win?
If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug*
Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points #1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP #2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want. #3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server. #4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items #5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other. #6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think.
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight?
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win?
If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug*
Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
Because if there is no risk, where's the worry in dying.
If i see a higher more powerful leveld character on appear on the horizon, i know its time for me to run, and that gets my blood pumping especialy when i see him or her give chase.
Now, say i die, fair enough.
I'll gather some friends and return and go hunting for who killed me.
Rewards other than the win are necessary in order to make opponents feel the need to fight for their lives/eq or run like buggery and live to fight another day.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think. If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight? If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win? If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug* Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think. If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight? If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win? If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug* Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
Amen Brotha!
Vajuras, I was waiting for you to post in here - read your blogs, theyre excellent.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think. If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight? If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win? If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug* Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think. If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight? If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win? If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug* Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
Amen Brotha!
Vajuras, I was waiting for you to post in here - read your blogs, theyre excellent.
heh thanks hard to resist threads on this topic. I love my hardcore MMOs and its just so clear to me this is the future for intense, hardcore PVP
1) I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP 2) Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1 3) Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
4) In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
5) Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose. everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
*Numbered your points for easier reply.
1) Why not instead strive for a game that isn't gear-dependent in the first place? Dark Age of Camelot had stat caps so that you could only go so far with gear. Capping most/all of your stats was a fairly easy task, yet still separated the truly lazy gamers from the rest of the pack.
2) Again, if you make a game less gear-dependent, then it really doesn't matter if you can loot your enemy's corpse. You'll consistently beat that warrior if you're a better player than him, but if you're not... you won't. Your enemy doesn't have to re-farm his equipment and you still get that satisfaction of driving his face into the dirt.
3) There are easier methods of ending a fight than losing all of your equipment. Instead of losing equipment when you lose a fight, why not have your character become far-removed from a fight? If an enemy dies and gets transported across the map to a place that is 10-15 minutes away, then the fight will be over by the time he makes it back to the area.
4) There are many types of deterrents that do not cost the player his personal equipment. Likes the situation described above, one such penalty is time. In order to return to the fight he would be giving up 10-15 minutes of travel time with a serious chance that he will end up dying again. The player still has the option of choosing a different, closer target that may be closer to his skill level; this way, the player doesn't need to re-farm his equipment to be an effective PvP-participant.
5) If you're taking more than you lose, then statistically there is always someone who is losing more than he takes. PvP games that include gear-looting are often more gear-dependent than PvP games that don't. Because a loss of gear is the penalty for death, then gear will always have to carry a certain significance in PvP... a significance that should be reserved more for skill.
I'm not trying to change your opinion, just trying to let you know that the opposite opinion exists. As long as the opposite opinion exists, these types of games will exist. Both types have earned their place in the PvP genre.
I play Gears of War. It's fast paced, fun, and it really gets the blood pumping. And guess what? If I loose, I can charge into the next game with no problem! The only risk is possibly my rank/ego. And it still does the job for me.
I have played games where PvP does incur losses and it isn't necessarily fun. Is what really bugs me is "PvP" games that require a lot of PvE to make up for PvP losses. I mean, when I want to PvP I just want to PvP. Having to stop and go grind at PvE for a while because I got ganked is retarded.
By the way, another nice thing about Gears of War is that the battles are balanced. There is no "ganking", and losses incurred are usually because of the difference in skill, not time spent, greater number of players, or person with the most ebay buying power. There's a reason I've been playing this instead of MMOs.
I play Gears of War. It's fast paced, fun, and it really gets the blood pumping. And guess what? If I loose, I can charge into the next game with no problem! The only risk is possibly my rank/ego. And it still does the job for me. I have played games where PvP does incur losses and it isn't necessarily fun. Is what really bugs me is "PvP" games that require a lot of PvE to make up for PvP losses. I mean, when I want to PvP I just want to PvP. Having to stop and go grind at PvE for a while because I got ganked is retarded. By the way, another nice thing about Gears of War is that the battles are balanced. There is no "ganking", and losses incurred are usually because of the difference in skill, not time spent, greater number of players, or person with the most ebay buying power. There's a reason I've been playing this instead of MMOs.
[edit]
It is okay to grind to come backup you are playing an MMORPG and if you are weak and dont know how to play then this is how it should be. The weak will lose all they own and the strong will thrive off of your suffering. I will not sugercoat this- if you dont know how to play on this type of server you will get steamrolled.
The weak will bottom feed off of mobs to survive (mobs are the "prey" for them). This is how newbies usually start out while the strong will utterly smash the newbies. Thus is the vicious cycle of life. You must team to survive especially if you are new until you learn the mechanics. Even then you must team.
This is a Community game (when you add Looting). Looting reduces grind for the veterans that know how to play. Newbies will grind and the poor players will grind and the soloers will always grind because no one man is anything in a war. It's about the 'team' not about the individual.
fYI, gears of War is an FPS and even as fun as it is for us we stopped playing it eventually it does not compare to the depth an MMO provides.
1) I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP 2) Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1 3) Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
4) In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
5) Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose. everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
*Numbered your points for easier reply.
1) Why not instead strive for a game that isn't gear-dependent in the first place? Dark Age of Camelot had stat caps so that you could only go so far with gear. Capping most/all of your stats was a fairly easy task, yet still separated the truly lazy gamers from the rest of the pack.
2) Again, if you make a game less gear-dependent, then it really doesn't matter if you can loot your enemy's corpse. You'll consistently beat that warrior if you're a better player than him, but if you're not... you won't. Your enemy doesn't have to re-farm his equipment and you still get that satisfaction of driving his face into the dirt.
3) There are easier methods of ending a fight than losing all of your equipment. Instead of losing equipment when you lose a fight, why not have your character become far-removed from a fight? If an enemy dies and gets transported across the map to a place that is 10-15 minutes away, then the fight will be over by the time he makes it back to the area.
4) There are many types of deterrents that do not cost the player his personal equipment. Likes the situation described above, one such penalty is time. In order to return to the fight he would be giving up 10-15 minutes of travel time with a serious chance that he will end up dying again. The player still has the option of choosing a different, closer target that may be closer to his skill level; this way, the player doesn't need to re-farm his equipment to be an effective PvP-participant.
5) If you're taking more than you lose, then statistically there is always someone who is losing more than he takes. PvP games that include gear-looting are often more gear-dependent than PvP games that don't. Because a loss of gear is the penalty for death, then gear will always have to carry a certain significance in PvP... a significance that should be reserved more for skill.
I'm not trying to change your opinion, just trying to let you know that the opposite opinion exists. As long as the opposite opinion exists, these types of games will exist. Both types have earned their place in the PvP genre.
#1 gear is nice becomes it allows us to emulate real warfare whereas there is a #1 warrior and I can become #1 by taking himdown. without some form of progression we most likely end up with an FPS. MMORPGs have depth and progression. Recall, risk vs reward is all encompassing. We are talking cities and entire planets perhaps falling to guilds. We need risk vs reward in a real hardcore PVP game. In this type of game there will be progression whether we like it or not. Trust im a fan of player skill weighing in bigtime but there must also be evolution of some sort and economic power. This power should change hands. you must lose something and I must be able to take it
#2 Looting makes him unable to come back and waste my time most likely. It is a powerful deterent
#3 lets say I have a bank and you try to rob it. What is to stop you from retrying? If you lose loot, I gain your loot which is only right for damaging my property. If we have a real persistant MMO like Starport then your rules ruin immersion, ruins my impact, ruins everything. In order to have impact I must take resources. there must be change. not static, fake worlds where everyone keeps their gear?
#4 This is not sufficient we dont want players coming right back 10 minutes later and ninjaing our base. If a game has risk vs reward (looting), then it will also most likely aim at letting players 'own' cities. The only thing to deter a player from attacking our city is risk vs reward. I should get reward if you fail and you get my city if you win. This way we dont keep fighting all night long. You lose, you die, that's it. The more harsh the penalty, the more immersive PVP is for many of us. The weak will be discouraged but that's okay they can transfer to the normal servers if they do not want to team and accept the risks
edit- I dont understand how you guys could not want this. Imagine a bloody battlefield littered with corpses from the fallen. What is more cool then picking their bodies and taking the spoils? There is nothing more real then this. No fake system can touch it. This is the ultimate victory, taking an entire city and altering the game world into your vision. Think not of full loot in games like WoW but imagine a real, persistant MMO that allows you to change it
For me PvP is about the excitement and challenge you get from fighting another human being. That's why I like FPS games, that's why I like pvp in MMOs. Most MMO players don't want to lose hours of hard work because a gank squad came along. I think hardcore rulesets actually discourage PvP for this reason. Hardcore PVP encourages ganking and griefing and most players avoid it like the plague. I have no problem with seperate servers like you say, but there is a reason that most games don't have hardcore pvp servers: Because so few people want one that it just isn't profitable to have one.
Firstly, PvP in an FPS and PvP in an MMO are two very, very different things. FPS PvP relies largely on human skill, which yes can be enjoyable. This is why, generally, FPS' don't offer any reward for killing people, because there's enough fun to be had in the killing itself.
MMO's, on the other hand, are largely unskilled (UO was an exception to this rule). Fighting somebody in WoW, for example, really doesn't take a great deal of ability and grows very ,VERY tiresome after a short time. IF players who PvP were to lose all of their items upon death, it'd add an excitement factor to PvP which hasn't been seen since the likes of UO.
I'm all for full loot PvP, in fact I consider any game without it not to be a true MMO.
Also, people that say 'no one wants a hardcore pvp game' really aren't listening to the tens, no, hundreds of thousands of players who winge for such a game on a daily basis. Everywhere you go you have people arguing about why hardcore PvP is better than carebear PvP.
A hardcore PvP game nowerdays would, worryingly enough, be a niche game. This would undoubtedly guarantee a decent sized playerbase until another game decided to do the same. I just wish games developers would take their heads out of their arses and realise that, while we may not be the majority, there are still a large number of MMO addicts out there waiting with bated breath for a REAL MMO to make an appearance.
Comments
Some people use cars to get from point A to point B, some people use them for buisness and there are people who like to go fast, realy fast, is it so hard to understand?
I can speak from personal expirience that I don't drive fast because it's safe, but because of the adrenaline rush, that's why I bungee and parachute jump too, so instead of feeling all inferior and defensive why don't you people just accept God didn't make you to be cool, the world needs accountants and pencil pushers too.
Man, it feels good to passivly insult people over forums.
I think there are a number of good possibilities for PVP gains and penalties.
a lot of the PVP crowd just want a larger player base to gank on. What fun is that really about as much risk for a level 70 killing a level 10 in WoW. Not very sporting and is it really all that fun to be an a-hole. (for some I guess it is)
First I do like death penalties. No risk means less adrenaline which lowers the fun factor. Death penalties can be for PvE & PvP.
I am not a fan of full looting either. That is not so fun for the gankee.
Suggestion. Ganking is tantamount to committing murder. So classify RPK as evil. Give people a karma/alignment stat. Make moving your karma/alignment to good time consuming and difficult. Also provide certain penalties to evil people. Most fantasy RPGs are under the impression we are supposed to be good. So make towns and NPCs that hunt evil players. Post rewards for killing evil players etc.
Note, you also put the onus (penalty) of PKing on the attacker of non evil players. Obviously attacking evil players first is allowable. Scale the karma/alignment shift based on the level difference between the attacker and the victim. So very little shift if you attack someone your own or higher level and a huge shift if you are killing newbies and you are at the level cap.
Next Looting, no one likes to lose their gear, so you make equipped items no drop or make no drops items readily available. so all you would really lose is some cash and some loot you gathered off of mobs. Pretty much player housing with a recall system to it would make it possible for you to protect those items you gain that you really want to protect. you recall and drop them in your housing.
I think FFA PvP can work and I played AC darktide server for 3 years and was oh so very happy when I finally got my no drop armor/hat/boots/ never did get no drop gauntlets. and I kept a starter wand for a no drop weapon.
My biggest complaint was no penalty was afforded to gankers. What shopkeeper would let their customers get killed while shopping. That was where most of my deaths occurred. I was inside a building buying spell comps and with the radar reduced in buildings you could easily get blindsided and killed. Add a karma/alignment system and let people play evil characters. Just afford them the same protections as murderers and evil monsters deserve. NONE. People only behave if there is a penalty.
sonofseth, I think that is exactly the point that the OP was trying to make, and the very same that I was trying to make. You enjoy death defying endeavors because your very life is on the line. In an mmo, then, would PVP not be more fun, even for you, if the penalties were harsher, and for you, judging by the things that you wrote, the best penalty for you would be Perma-death for your PVP'ing toon. Correct?
T
This is a spurious analogy. No betting in poker is like PvP with no attacks. Its pointless.
Now if you want to say that PvP with no item loot is like a penny-anty poker game with a pot limit, ok that is probably a fairly good analogy. But then item loot PvP in a game like WoW is like high stake no-limit poker where you can lose your entire life savings. Many people play one and very very few play the other.
You can try to invalidate no loot pvp all you want but when you do the analogies right you find that most people are playing poker with very little risk and they only watch high risk stuff on TV. Just like in the MMO world as well.
It should be obvious that most people are risk averse, is this really that hard to believe? They do a little bit to make things interesting and that is it.
K GOOFBALLS. PVP IS JUST PART OF ONLINE GAMING, THERE ARE NEVER ANY REAL STAKES INVOLVED. YOU DIE AND LOSE XP/GEAR/FAKE MONEY..SO WHAT? DID YOU LOSE YOUR HOUSE YOUR WIFE AND YOUR KIDS BECAUSE YOU LOST THE BIG BATTLE?
GET A LIFE NUBS.
QUIT THINKING LIKE THIS GAME YOU ARE PLAYING IS RL.
An EQ style game with full loot is nothing but a headache waiting to happen. They either need to make gear not matter that much and then full loot or no loot and gear makes a huge difference.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I dont want to loose hours of hard work to gankers either, personally. I play poker often, but mostly without money or so few its only symbolic. (A few cents.) I just dont like to play for money. My dad worked in a casino, and I have seen to many ruin themselves to play for money.
If combat is exciting, I dont need additional threats to feel excited, and not additional penality to feel my death as failure.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Ok,.. I will assume you are being sarcastic if not...
This goes to the heart of the problem that most that caim to want PVP but are not intrested in real battles seem to never be willing to accept.
sex with a condom = responsibility, especally in accepting it for your own actions.
Now since EVE has been touted as an example of an open PVP game, lets look at it. Can you attack anyone anywhere, yes but you pay the price. Yes, CCP weneed out and gave in to those that do not want to accept responsibility for their actions but reducing the cost and lessening the responsibility but, if you attack some one in high sec you get concorted. In low sec you just take a sec hit (which actully used to mean something)
The bottom line, no game company, not even the PK loveing CCP will have Only a FFA PPV game as there are just not enough players (that need the free kills) to support it.
To the OP, while PVP can be an accet to a game and can realy rase the stakes (I played on D2s hard core servers all the time), player Looting does not enhance the game but in fact can ruin it. Blizzard understood this a long time ago and most if not all companies understand it to day. The reasion is that when you make death to big a hit what always happens is that the gank squads will crawl out of the wood work and begin to ruin the game for everyone else.
While you will hear the guys brag about how many noobs they have killed I have yet to hear one player say how they just loved getting killed molested and robbed and how much that wanted to repete the experince.
Does a harsh death penelty help a game?
No..
Some of the best games I have ever played were MW4, tribes and lately bf2 games. What makes these games fun is winning or loosing by only 3 points. This is because both sides had fun. Think about the last time you played football or basket ball and when was the most fun you had. It was the game that the teams were so evenly matched that you both had to work and fight for every point.
On the flip side most people who cry out for steeper penelties do so because they want to be a pro foot ball team against a ltl league team. Outclassing (and out weighing) them is not enough they want to be able to stop the kids into the ground breaking as many bones as possable. But it's ok.. because it PVP..
and they get to keep the pampers.
The point of any and all games is not just to win, but to have fun. Not just fun for 1 person or 1 group but fun for all.
Very well said. I love pvp games. My whole guild is pretty pvp centric. Sure some of them love the looting idea, some don't. For me, it's all about that all-mighty "W". I like to win, I like competition. I have a fight with you and barely win. Now that's fun. You lose gear from being beat, and there goes my competition. Why wouldn't I want my enemies, to stay at their peak. It makes crushing them beneath my hill when we are on even ground, oh so much more satisfying. Yet if I lose it will force me to step my game up, not say oh damn I lost I better go farm for more gear ala if there were looting. Real pvpers don't need looting, real pvpers need challenging opponents.
I want your life not your gear. If I have to loot something let me chop a hand or ear or head, and mount it on my wall beside all the other people that I killed.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
in lost planet xbox360 you lose rank for dying and Halo 2 de-levels you for deaths.
So what u say is not true for all the good shooters I tend to play.
Bah I'm reading many posts from people with a poor understanding of what risk vs reward is. Misinformation is supreme let me set the record straight in regards to full looting and watch people never can refute these points
#1 It isnt about "getting something from my victim". It is about making an -impact- like in a real war. If I destroy my victim, that is a huge win for my guild and a huge loss for their guild because they jkust lost their #1 warrior. The best way to do this in an MMO is a risk versus reward system. That way I get a real reward for PVP
#2 I dont have to grind PVE mobs senselessly for loot. I can kill someone in PVP and take what I want.
#3 If you want to get epic gear then fine- earn that right to wear it. If you lack the skill to wield it you will lose it. If you are not good and walk into a dangerous area you will lose that epic gear. Self regulating system- promotes everyone to be careful or get robbed cause wearing the best gear makes you target #1 on the server.
#4 The best warrior, #1, will wear the best gear and reduce his risks. It will be clear who is the best on this server. Crystal clear. We can fight -real WARS- cause we are losing and gaining real items
#5 Avoids the retarded loot honor grinds that WoW has. Game devs know PVPers can grind on each other. So they put in fake PVP diminishing returns to prevent farming. If they have real risk and gain system then no need for fake regulations. No way for us to get on ventrillo and farm each other.
#6 Even FPS games have risk vs reward (the most popular). In Lost planet xbox360 you lose rank during a match for poor gameplay. In Halo 2 you get de-leveled. In Unreal Tournament you lose your buffs and gear. In Guild Wars for losing a ranked match your whole guild loses rank
Risk vs Reward is more then just full looting. There is not one good reason why we should not get a Hardcore PVP sErver. There is only one reason why we're not getting it---- because it's more profitable to make PVPers grind each other all day for loot. That's the #1 reason and only reason
Risk vs Reward is a big win for PVPers I have yet to ever hear one convincing argument why we shouldn't get it
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or
You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or
You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or
You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think.
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight?
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win?
If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug*
Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
1) If it isn't about "getting something" then why do you need full looting? Your opponent dying should be enough. You and him both risk losing. Your reward for winning is going on to the next fight or your penalty for losing is being sent back to your nearest home point and rezzing at 50% or 25% life. Delaying you from re-entering any combat. It's a game, if you want something akin to real war. Enlist in the army or something. I play games to have fun not simulate real life.
2) If everyone had to kill someone to get better gear. Then you would pretty much have an empty server, with a handful of people on top, and everyone else quitting. And where is this better gear coming from?
3) Again where is this gear coming from? Either you are A) A really good pvper meaning you wouldn't lose that epic gear anyway cause you probably have beaten everyone on the server to get it or
You are part of a gank squad with numbers large enough to make sure that doesn't happen, because you don't move solo anyway. Oh and what happens if there is a lag spike between you and the server, or one of the hops. You just lost your epic gear because of something you had no control over. Where's the player skill in that?
4) Gear dependant PvP games suck period. A real PvP game is about skill not GEAR. Why do you think FPS's are so popular? In CS it's not so much the gun you carry that matters, as it is the skill you have as a player. Some of the best players in the CS world can kill you with guns that other players consider craptastic, hell they'll even kill you with just a knife. For PvP to be worth while it has to be SKILL base and Item/Gear/Buffs have to be 99% meaningless they should be fluff at best. Not something that makes or breaks a character.
5) Not going to touch this one. I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you are trying to make.
6) Rank and Looting are different. Losing a rank in a FPS is nothing more then showing where you stand on a ladder. Does losing a rank in Lost Planet hurt your ability to fight? No, right? But losing your only weapon in a pvp game where everyone is not your friend, would suck now wouldn't it? How about losing your armor, in a game where dodge is based on gear and not skill? That would suck to wouldn't it? Especially when you consider that most PvP games that have or will have looting, will not easily allow you to replace your gear, if it happens to often. So what's a person to do? Keep playing or quit? Oh I know I should reroll right? So even more better gear people can get free kills off me.
So when it's just 100 of you left on the server, after the 100,000 or so that started leave. Then what? Oh I know that lame line join a guild get some friends. Should your friends have to worry about bailing you out everytime you lag or something? Should your guild have to set aside funds for you, everytime you want to go PvP? No different then forced grouping in PvE games. Not everyone wants to be all handy dandy social, some people enjoy playing alone and doing things alone. All you do when you add stuff like that is limit options, and that's not a good thing.
#1 Like I said before, them simply being destroyed (aka EVE) allows me to get impact or heavy item durability loss. If you dont want this then roll on normal server like we keep saying. I want to fight real warriors willing to take a chance
#2 look this type of server is not a gear whore grindfest. We dont have to have uber gear to have fun. FFA PVP with Looting is not a solution to grind for all. It reduces grind for the people smart enough to team and reduce their risks. It's a Community based game not something easy to solo. one man is nothiung in a real war
#3 again this is not a gear whore grindfest. It doesnt matter how uber gear is here on this server. the aim of this server is -not- to reduce grind for gear. It is an exchange of resources. The most skilled / best army / best pirates will get the best loot
#4 you misunderstood my point here actually. for all I care there is just 1 headband in all the world and this headband indicates I am #1. If there is uber gear, then there will be wars over that. It has no bearing on this issue really how 'uber' items are but rather- the best will ahve the best resources
#6 It's all risk versus reward. I gain a reward (gain rank) for winning. The lsoer loses rank . The bigger the penalties the bigger my impact.
The people that leave can transfer to a PVE Server. Then what we have left is true warriors, all willing to take a risk. This is good- that means all the farmers are running to the PVE servers and bloating the economy there because much easier to farm there. They will not be missed
Lastly, Hardcore PVP Servers are not gear whore servers. There are no farmers on them that are not willing to take a risk. It is fun for hardcore PVPers and we dont have to mindlessly grind mobs like farmers do in WoW & LOTRO & EQ etc. No one wears gear they cant risk losing and we fight real wars over real resources. sure the nooblets that cant PVP will get robbed blind and be the pray and will have to grind. but that's real life. survival of the fittest.
Yes you will most likely get ganked and robbed blind if you dont reduce your risks! Yes, you will have to team to succeed! This is an MMO and there is strength in numbers. Hardcore PVP Servers are not for soloers. It is a Community Server- unkind to soloers.
If the gear isn't special or uber then what's the point in looting it? I could care less about loot. All I want is the win. I swear I really do not understand all the so called "hardcore pvpers" fixation with looting. You say gear doesn't matter then what is the point of looting? You say best warriors will have the best resources, then you are implying that their gear will be better then everyone else's. (Read: Special) So I'm confused. These pre-fabricated reasons for enticing people to kill someone is stupid. A real pvp'ers know that the only important thing is being better then the next person. THAT's the only reward or incentive you need to kill someone. To prove your superiority, to find that one opponent that pushes up to be better. For you to be more skilled, cunning, and tactful. PvE centric loot whores need looting, so I guess you "hardcore pvpers" and the PvE crowd have more in common then you think.
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need looting as a reason to fight?
If you are so "hardcore" why do you need rewards other then the win?
If you need Loot (special, sub-par, uber, or other) before you even consider pvping. Maybe you should just pick up a copy of EQ or something with mob looting so you can get that looting rush. *shrug*
Hell would you enter a strong man contest for the reward? Or to prove that you are the strongest? If you entered and found out it had no loot at the end, would you just quit?
Because if there is no risk, where's the worry in dying.
If i see a higher more powerful leveld character on appear on the horizon, i know its time for me to run, and that gets my blood pumping especialy when i see him or her give chase.
Now, say i die, fair enough.
I'll gather some friends and return and go hunting for who killed me.
Rewards other than the win are necessary in order to make opponents feel the need to fight for their lives/eq or run like buggery and live to fight another day.
It's great.
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
Amen Brotha!
Vajuras, I was waiting for you to post in here - read your blogs, theyre excellent.
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
Agree 100%!
I give up just read what I wrote above again its anwsered. If I cant loot a raider that has the uber loot I will get steamrolled, period. Looting allows me to acquire loot from PVP
Also it allows me to make a permenant impact. Let's say I fight best warrior on the PVP Server. He loses, I become #1
Also, wars come to a definitive end- lets say 2 guilds fight each other. What happens in WoW and other crappy PVP Games? You fight and fight til you get tired or the guards run you off.
In a real PVP game when the victims get looted- its a deterent. The victim not gonna want to come back and keep losing all his loot in a fight he know he cant win. Risk vs reward will stop idiots from coming running right back into battle. Sure, maybe they'll come back with junk but if the game is somewhat loot driven then the guy wont do anything much but keep dying until finally he has no more gear in his vaults. no one is gonna keep handing over gold but if they do good!
Risk vs Reward allows true warfare I ahve yet to hear one argument why this is such a bad thing. Realize not evweryone is a gear whore some of us dont mind losing gear cause I know i will take more then I lose.
everyone keeps posting counter arguments about how precious their loot is. I say FFA PVP with Looting is a Community Server- unfriendly to gear whores. It allows us real pvpers to have real wars, real loss and real gain
The harsher death penalty is the closer we get to real warfare
Amen Brotha!
Vajuras, I was waiting for you to post in here - read your blogs, theyre excellent.
heh thanks hard to resist threads on this topic. I love my hardcore MMOs and its just so clear to me this is the future for intense, hardcore PVP
*Numbered your points for easier reply.
1) Why not instead strive for a game that isn't gear-dependent in the first place? Dark Age of Camelot had stat caps so that you could only go so far with gear. Capping most/all of your stats was a fairly easy task, yet still separated the truly lazy gamers from the rest of the pack.
2) Again, if you make a game less gear-dependent, then it really doesn't matter if you can loot your enemy's corpse. You'll consistently beat that warrior if you're a better player than him, but if you're not... you won't. Your enemy doesn't have to re-farm his equipment and you still get that satisfaction of driving his face into the dirt.
3) There are easier methods of ending a fight than losing all of your equipment. Instead of losing equipment when you lose a fight, why not have your character become far-removed from a fight? If an enemy dies and gets transported across the map to a place that is 10-15 minutes away, then the fight will be over by the time he makes it back to the area.
4) There are many types of deterrents that do not cost the player his personal equipment. Likes the situation described above, one such penalty is time. In order to return to the fight he would be giving up 10-15 minutes of travel time with a serious chance that he will end up dying again. The player still has the option of choosing a different, closer target that may be closer to his skill level; this way, the player doesn't need to re-farm his equipment to be an effective PvP-participant.
5) If you're taking more than you lose, then statistically there is always someone who is losing more than he takes. PvP games that include gear-looting are often more gear-dependent than PvP games that don't. Because a loss of gear is the penalty for death, then gear will always have to carry a certain significance in PvP... a significance that should be reserved more for skill.
I'm not trying to change your opinion, just trying to let you know that the opposite opinion exists. As long as the opposite opinion exists, these types of games will exist. Both types have earned their place in the PvP genre.
to those that say there are not enough people willing to play hardcore PVP to make it viable...
Check out the poll, so far two thirds of the voters are in favour of it.
And while many of them may be in favour but wont necessarily play that, it's still a high figure.
I had many people vote in this poll last time, i think over 100 from memory, and again two thirds were in favour of a hardcore pvp ruleset server.
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
I play Gears of War. It's fast paced, fun, and it really gets the blood pumping. And guess what? If I loose, I can charge into the next game with no problem! The only risk is possibly my rank/ego. And it still does the job for me.
I have played games where PvP does incur losses and it isn't necessarily fun. Is what really bugs me is "PvP" games that require a lot of PvE to make up for PvP losses. I mean, when I want to PvP I just want to PvP. Having to stop and go grind at PvE for a while because I got ganked is retarded.
By the way, another nice thing about Gears of War is that the battles are balanced. There is no "ganking", and losses incurred are usually because of the difference in skill, not time spent, greater number of players, or person with the most ebay buying power. There's a reason I've been playing this instead of MMOs.
[edit]
It is okay to grind to come backup you are playing an MMORPG and if you are weak and dont know how to play then this is how it should be. The weak will lose all they own and the strong will thrive off of your suffering. I will not sugercoat this- if you dont know how to play on this type of server you will get steamrolled.
The weak will bottom feed off of mobs to survive (mobs are the "prey" for them). This is how newbies usually start out while the strong will utterly smash the newbies. Thus is the vicious cycle of life. You must team to survive especially if you are new until you learn the mechanics. Even then you must team.
This is a Community game (when you add Looting). Looting reduces grind for the veterans that know how to play. Newbies will grind and the poor players will grind and the soloers will always grind because no one man is anything in a war. It's about the 'team' not about the individual.
fYI, gears of War is an FPS and even as fun as it is for us we stopped playing it eventually it does not compare to the depth an MMO provides.
*Numbered your points for easier reply.
1) Why not instead strive for a game that isn't gear-dependent in the first place? Dark Age of Camelot had stat caps so that you could only go so far with gear. Capping most/all of your stats was a fairly easy task, yet still separated the truly lazy gamers from the rest of the pack.
2) Again, if you make a game less gear-dependent, then it really doesn't matter if you can loot your enemy's corpse. You'll consistently beat that warrior if you're a better player than him, but if you're not... you won't. Your enemy doesn't have to re-farm his equipment and you still get that satisfaction of driving his face into the dirt.
3) There are easier methods of ending a fight than losing all of your equipment. Instead of losing equipment when you lose a fight, why not have your character become far-removed from a fight? If an enemy dies and gets transported across the map to a place that is 10-15 minutes away, then the fight will be over by the time he makes it back to the area.
4) There are many types of deterrents that do not cost the player his personal equipment. Likes the situation described above, one such penalty is time. In order to return to the fight he would be giving up 10-15 minutes of travel time with a serious chance that he will end up dying again. The player still has the option of choosing a different, closer target that may be closer to his skill level; this way, the player doesn't need to re-farm his equipment to be an effective PvP-participant.
5) If you're taking more than you lose, then statistically there is always someone who is losing more than he takes. PvP games that include gear-looting are often more gear-dependent than PvP games that don't. Because a loss of gear is the penalty for death, then gear will always have to carry a certain significance in PvP... a significance that should be reserved more for skill.
I'm not trying to change your opinion, just trying to let you know that the opposite opinion exists. As long as the opposite opinion exists, these types of games will exist. Both types have earned their place in the PvP genre.
#1 gear is nice becomes it allows us to emulate real warfare whereas there is a #1 warrior and I can become #1 by taking himdown. without some form of progression we most likely end up with an FPS. MMORPGs have depth and progression. Recall, risk vs reward is all encompassing. We are talking cities and entire planets perhaps falling to guilds. We need risk vs reward in a real hardcore PVP game. In this type of game there will be progression whether we like it or not. Trust im a fan of player skill weighing in bigtime but there must also be evolution of some sort and economic power. This power should change hands. you must lose something and I must be able to take it
#2 Looting makes him unable to come back and waste my time most likely. It is a powerful deterent
#3 lets say I have a bank and you try to rob it. What is to stop you from retrying? If you lose loot, I gain your loot which is only right for damaging my property. If we have a real persistant MMO like Starport then your rules ruin immersion, ruins my impact, ruins everything. In order to have impact I must take resources. there must be change. not static, fake worlds where everyone keeps their gear?
#4 This is not sufficient we dont want players coming right back 10 minutes later and ninjaing our base. If a game has risk vs reward (looting), then it will also most likely aim at letting players 'own' cities. The only thing to deter a player from attacking our city is risk vs reward. I should get reward if you fail and you get my city if you win. This way we dont keep fighting all night long. You lose, you die, that's it. The more harsh the penalty, the more immersive PVP is for many of us. The weak will be discouraged but that's okay they can transfer to the normal servers if they do not want to team and accept the risks
edit- I dont understand how you guys could not want this. Imagine a bloody battlefield littered with corpses from the fallen. What is more cool then picking their bodies and taking the spoils? There is nothing more real then this. No fake system can touch it. This is the ultimate victory, taking an entire city and altering the game world into your vision. Think not of full loot in games like WoW but imagine a real, persistant MMO that allows you to change it
Firstly, PvP in an FPS and PvP in an MMO are two very, very different things. FPS PvP relies largely on human skill, which yes can be enjoyable. This is why, generally, FPS' don't offer any reward for killing people, because there's enough fun to be had in the killing itself.
MMO's, on the other hand, are largely unskilled (UO was an exception to this rule). Fighting somebody in WoW, for example, really doesn't take a great deal of ability and grows very ,VERY tiresome after a short time. IF players who PvP were to lose all of their items upon death, it'd add an excitement factor to PvP which hasn't been seen since the likes of UO.
I'm all for full loot PvP, in fact I consider any game without it not to be a true MMO.
Also, people that say 'no one wants a hardcore pvp game' really aren't listening to the tens, no, hundreds of thousands of players who winge for such a game on a daily basis. Everywhere you go you have people arguing about why hardcore PvP is better than carebear PvP.
A hardcore PvP game nowerdays would, worryingly enough, be a niche game. This would undoubtedly guarantee a decent sized playerbase until another game decided to do the same. I just wish games developers would take their heads out of their arses and realise that, while we may not be the majority, there are still a large number of MMO addicts out there waiting with bated breath for a REAL MMO to make an appearance.
In today's brawl we shall witness our hometown hero, Papa John's, take on the up-and-coming champion, Domino's.
OMG! Domino's pulls through with a smashing defeat! OMG HE'S LOOTING PAPA JOHN'S MUSHROOMS!
Now look what we have. A pizza with no mushrooms. Christ.
Now think. You can never again order your favorite mushroom pizza from Papa John's, let it sink in for a bit.
Sucks, doesn't it?
No looting in my PvP please.