these are just games and need to be treated as such....
um, there are all sorts of games out there guy. Golf, basketball, football, racing, etc. many Real Life simulations. maybe you should rephrase that argument. EA Sports brands earns Electronic Arts a fortune every year.
Exactly! This is what I want in a PvP game. Not looting, ganking, and otherwise uber-leet characters. I want an even playing field with fierce competition. The whole concept of looting is to make your character stronger so you can crush your opponents more easily (and make PvP versus those opponents more of a yawn). It also encourages play that is entirely unfair (Which is annoying, not fun), like having 5 people to take down 1-2 guys.
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
edit: grammar.
There are rules you can apply to PVP to make it non total gank fest.
Why not put a timer on how long until you can loot a corpse? Giving the person time to get back to his or her body, maybe gather friends to charge back and reclaim her stuff.
The timer can be organic in relation to where she died, what level she was, etc.
Why not allot perhaps a certain amount of items you can lock, so that if you die, you'll still have your 3 most treasured items?
These ideas are just that, ideas, they may be crap or not, but as you can see, you don't have to make PVP Hardcore so clear cut.
Oh, and by the way, if i'm ever killed or ganked, i get smart and gather some friends or guildies or failing that put a call out for some 'aid' to get back as my attackers.
I dont just throw my hands up in the air and shout "i been ganked" and shut down...
PVP Hardcore can and does work, and its not as one dimensional as many believe it to be.
it doesn't matter how soft we make it they would not roll on FFA PVP Server to begin with. ask them what games they are playing now
Ok I got a question for you Var. Say you were out and about in the field. You happen to come across someone with comparable level to your own. (Since we'll probably never see a skill based PvP MMO ever again) He's currently fighting a mob that is giving him a tough time. What would you do? I'm betting you would probably attack that person.
Me, on the other hand. I would sit there, let him kill the mob, rest up to full, before I even considered attacking him. Why? Simply because I think the sheer act of attacking a weaken opponent is cowardly. Also when I beat my opponents. I want them to be at their best. So when I ground them into the dirt. They understand that even at their best they aren't better then me. I want them to get angry. I want them to reflect on why they lost. I want them to consider that maybe they aren't strong enough. Why? So they can strive to become better. Why? So that I will always have an opponent that will hopefully challenge me at a level that forces me to step my game up.
For me PvP is about the challenge of engaging another person. Putting my strength on the line versus their strength to prove which one of us is superior. To me that's MORE then enough reason to fight. I see someone strong, good. Well lets see which one of us is stronger. I don't know, but it seems like from the more of your posting that I read. If you don't gain anything after the fight. That you aren't really interested in fighting. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but that's just how I feel when I read your post.
For me the Risk and Reward is quite simple. The Risk for me is simply having my ass handed to me. Thereby proving that I'm not as strong as I think I am. The Reward for me is knowing that I faced an opponent that was strong. That pushed me to use every bit of my ability, and that I won. Simple thinking right? Yet that is enough to keep me happy. Knowing that I will either live by strength or die by their sword (or whatever they may be using ) satisfies more then some little trinket or weapon I might get off a dead corpse. I don't need fake pretenses to motive me to fight. As someone that loves True PvP, I fight solely for the benefit of bettering myself and my skills.
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
Conquer Online...some of the best PvP matches ive EVER had..mainly because there was apenalty for dying... and i died alot on that game, but when u became powerfull got was it fun to get revenge.
I can go either way on this issue. I can enjoy a PvP game with perma death, because that means I get to keep trying out different characters. Or I can go on the other end of the spectrum like in WoW and be completely happy with the fun of just fighting other people (the challenge involved).
What you are asking for, a Hardcore-PvP server, is not unreasonable either if the developers can afford it. What people have to realize is that servers are expensive and there has to be a large enough demand to sustain that server. Now lets assume the MMO does have enough interest in a Hardcore-PvP server, they still have to invest more money in balancing classes for PvP. Now balancing classes for PvP usually makes the PvE unfun and unrealistic (fanstastically speaking) for the PvErs. A mage should be stronger than a Warrior and should be able to kill him before the Warrior reaches the Mage, unless he has a spell or enchantment to help defend against it. PvE players don't mind this in a non-PvP environment, except in games where there are so many class choices that one class gets left out completely for group content.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
The bottom line is, is that this whole deal of "risk vs reward" is different for everyone. I am a PvP'r, and by all means I do consider a fair fight something thats good and exciting and gets my blood pumping. However, I find that when there are things other than your characters "life" at risk (since you can respawn) it makes the fight much more exciting. I find when theres the chance that losing your equipment is at stake, its simply....better.
But dont think that if people like looting they only PvP for the chance to pick something up someone's corpse. There are people out there, but the fact is, is that there is a wide variety of PvP'rs who have different preferences.
However, - and I stress this - there is a MUCH larger segment of the PvP population that does support some form of looting, than what is portrayed here at MMORPG.com. They are just muffled by the carebears calling them "gankers/griefers" and so forth. Its such a shame, considering that we are all gamers of some kind and are all aiming for a common goal.
There is actually a large group of people on the AoC forums that apparently spoke up for their FFA PvP server (with loot) and are quite proud of that. Hopefully we'll see some form of hardcore PvP in AoC. POTBC also seems to have looting, but I'm personally more interested in the former. Its a shame that games are going the "carebear" path, considering that it makes for a bland and boring game IMHO.
Why, tell me about the PVP in Lineage 2, as i've never played it, but heard so much about it (both good and bad) and i had a mate who was addicted to it for the longest time, but we never hung out so i didnt get to know much about the game itself.
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
First anyone that has not played UO or AC1 darktide are just theorizing. No other MMOs have even come close to what this topic is about.
It is great to thump your chest and pull out your huge epeen, but at the end of the day only a fraction of the players that claim to be hardcore actually have the balls to stick it out on those types of servers. A small fraction of dissent among your consumer base is not incentive enough to take a loss on a low pop server. If there was such a demand for FFA hardcore PvP it would be out there right now, the fact it isn't should be proof enough that the demand is not great.
Now I am sure a couple of you will again get the sloped foreheads and scream that there is a base of players out there pining for the gank fest promise land you all whisper about while you shine your knives, but the proof is in the marketing.
I will say it simple and clear for you guys. There is no market for what you want.
Read it and understand that it is your right to dream but it just won't happen. You can even go back to the examples of UO and Darktide... UO had a small hardcore group of players but they lost most of their player base to a PvE game... Evercrack. The only reason UO has lasted is because they can run the game on a palm pilot. 2D graphics and some number crunching... not much of a need for high end server... also at least during the day... some combat and personal calcs were done on the players PC... that is a no no now. Finally we come to darktide... I loved darktide... was a great server and it is a bit like henry V in that I remember those days and call those other players brothers. Darktide had a low pop... at least 95% of the AC1 player base stayed off the server like the plague. Turbine never even came close to putting up another server like darktide because the numbers were so low. It faded away like a raging warriors final breath.
There are other games that were suppose to be hardcore... Shadowbane... It is now sputtering along with 4 servers and a community that deals more in smack talk then actual playing substance. BTW the Chinese and Koreans have taken over 2 servers and they are starting on the others. Can you call in 70+ friends? they can and they completely wiped 2 servers.
When you open up FFA and severe penalties you open up the game to more then you think.
You use the argument that you want penalties like corpse looting because it brings more of a rush... The question is why do you need such extremes in your life to feel alive? I like the rush just like the next guy... in moderation. Adrenaline Junkies have one fact in common... they usually die young doing something stupid. Don't make it sound like that is a good thing.
And for those of you that want to label me as an accountant type... I fought in desert shield, I have jumped out of an airplane, I like to dive with sharks, and I go white water rafting every year. I am hardly a safe kinda guy... but I can tell you playing an MMO with even permadeath would be minor compared to what I do in real life... so why try to make it into something it is not?
If you do everything you say you do... then you would already know this.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
bah jsut let it go guys we not even gonna get a FFA Open PVP Server to begin with lol let alone good risky PVP. just play EVE or join me in the good ole skool 2d games. Mainstream has spoken- we will all be old men talking bout how MMOs used to be good lol
And for those of you that want to label me as an accountant type... I fought in desert shield, I have jumped out of an airplane, I like to dive with sharks, and I go white water rafting every year. I am hardly a safe kinda guy...
guy who cares what you do in real life. for all I know you work at toys'r'us and sell ice cream to little kids
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.
I'd just like to barge in for a moment here and comment on this, as I see it far too often. Why does everybody assume that a "gank fest" is all that would amount in an open PVP server? Sure, there will be plenty of it, but even on a weak PVP server in WoW with the ganking that goes on all the time you can see the other effects of a PVP server. People band together and stick it out, fight off gankers and everything. Hell, I remember one night in Stranglethorn Vale where a huge fight broke out throughout the entire zone. High levels and low levels alike, it was quite a sight. Something akin to a war, quite appropriate in a game called Warcraft, wouldn't you say?
I digress, however. I think a game with full-loot would be amazing, simply because crafters would be valued and resources would be that much more important. It encourages team work, and spurs on wars and fights that through experience in EVE Online I find are quite fun, not merely because of a fun combat system, but because of all the emotions and ideals that surround the conflict. I know if I was wearing a "rare" armor piece (which is a whole different debate, in my mind) and a person were to kill me and take it, I wouldn't cry and quit the game. If my ship was blown up in EVE and I lost millions of ISK, I wouldn't close out the game and fume about it. I gather myself and strive to get back at the person. I've done it before, and the feeling of accomplishment once you've blasted the guy who mocked you and defeated you is far better than winning any roll on a piece of loot.
Also, atziluth, you must hang around with the wrong people in Shadowbane. Either that or you're making baseless assumptions, as I rarely see smack talk and see much more coordination in helping get the lower levels ready to fight and such. The Asians may have two of the servers, but I know I give them hell wherever I venture.
Rather than an adrenalin rush, I view it more as a much better sense of accomplishment coupled with immersion.
And for those of you that want to label me as an accountant type... I fought in desert shield, I have jumped out of an airplane, I like to dive with sharks, and I go white water rafting every year. I am hardly a safe kinda guy...
guy who cares what you do in real life. for all I know you work at toys'r'us and sell ice cream to little kids
So what you are saying is when you pointed out that you go sky diving and other junkie type things it was pointless and a lie?
I added that for a reference to show that not all adrenaline junkies think the way you do. I like taking risks but it is a bit much that you think you can pull the same experiences out of a computer game.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Also, atziluth, you must hang around with the wrong people in Shadowbane. Either that or you're making baseless assumptions, as I rarely see smack talk and see much more coordination in helping get the lower levels ready to fight and such. The Asians may have two of the servers, but I know I give them hell wherever I venture.
Rather than an adrenalin rush, I view it more as a much better sense of accomplishment coupled with immersion.
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I support this idea, although maybe not as harsh as it is at the moment. The first mmo i ever played (around when i played UO) was Tibia. Back when i played Tibia it wasnt as big as it is today and the death system meant you lost experience/skill levels/magic levels and all your current gear (including backpack). This was a bit harsh but eventually they changed it to a 10% chance for each item equipped to drop, backpack always drops and you still lose skills and all that. I really liked this way of playing.. Sure there were some ganking but that usually works out since in these kinds of games (Tibia, UO, Vanguard, EVE) people tend to form gangs which is basicly the whole point. What if that guy twice your level beats you up while your killing a puma or whatever? Hopefully you have a couple of friends or a helpful guild which will help you get you back on your feet and gank the guy who killed you in the first place.
It makes pvp so much more exciting and encourages RP. It encourages guild forming, connecting with other players and general kindness since you dont want to upset people who's friends will send you back to the stoneage.
It even prohibits botting, from what i know a botter wont be able to do much if he's getting ganked all the time for his gear and money (and or experience).
Also, atziluth, you must hang around with the wrong people in Shadowbane. Either that or you're making baseless assumptions, as I rarely see smack talk and see much more coordination in helping get the lower levels ready to fight and such. The Asians may have two of the servers, but I know I give them hell wherever I venture.
Rather than an adrenalin rush, I view it more as a much better sense of accomplishment coupled with immersion.
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
Vindiciation is where its at, were the only server that has fought CN/HoD tooth and nail with the combined might of the entire server. We have repeatedly destroyed them, and repeatedly kept them from taking over our server. So If weve got the cajones to do so, why cant you guys?
In fact, when you arent busy touting how badass you are, you know jumping out of planes, fighting wars etc, you should come out to Vindication we have won quite a few of our banes vs the Pacrim nations. In fact weve won 3 offensive banes against them in the last few days
Also, atziluth, you must hang around with the wrong people in Shadowbane. Either that or you're making baseless assumptions, as I rarely see smack talk and see much more coordination in helping get the lower levels ready to fight and such. The Asians may have two of the servers, but I know I give them hell wherever I venture.
Rather than an adrenalin rush, I view it more as a much better sense of accomplishment coupled with immersion.
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
Vindiciation is where its at, were the only server that has fought CN/HoD tooth and nail with the combined might of the entire server. We have repeatedly destroyed them, and repeatedly kept them from taking over our server. So If weve got the cajones to do so, why cant you guys?
In fact, when you arent busy touting how badass you are, you know jumping out of planes, fighting wars etc, you should come out to Vindication we have won quite a few of our banes vs the Pacrim nations. In fact weve won 3 offensive banes against them in the last few days
punk rock in new hampshire rock on rich kids!
Lol... Arcken I understand thinking comes hard for you... but try to follow me here.
I know all about Vindi... it is the other of the 2 servers I mentioned. The difference is on mourning there are no Pacrim nations... We simply will not allow them... unfortunetly the Vindi guilds are not strong enough to keep them off your server... Read the mourning political boards... several Vindi guilds have solicited help from mourning to push Pacrim of your server. When you are at those banes... look at some of the groups... you will see us there as well helping you guys out. Sorry to burst your little bubble of self reliance on your server.
You really show your bitterness with life. My post about what I have done and do was directly related to another post where anyone who dissents with hardcore PvP servers are "accountants". I was just proving a point that the side a person takes does not dictate what he does or has done... but then again small minded people like you try to twist it. Had that post not sterotyped people I would never have said anything about myself.
Arcken... shame on you... looking at my profile to try and make personal attacks... NH is where I am now... not where I grew up... of course if I say anything about my past you will call me out as bragging or something else just as inane to try to comfort your own short falls. I have worked hard all my life and apparently unlike yourself I have been successful.
Since you brought up my current state... let me ask you a simple question... what did Illinois or Colorado ever bring to punk rock? Since you are from those punk rock meccas I figure you can enlighten me.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.
No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.
No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
you dont understand open PVP at all if you want to discourage gank squads. you do realize when 20+ people kill you it is a self regulating system. how will they split up the spoils? they are not getting rewarded are they? maybe 2-3 guys tops if u had anything good.
you say discourage gank squads- I say to hell with that I want 'FREEDOM'. you get served by 100+ guys from guild well deal out the punishment 1 by 1 later. use guerrilla warfare. maybe this is impossible in eVE due to Titans and all that nutty stuff but its very much possible in most any other game for one guy to get the jump and smoke a big team solo...........
[edit] in regards to EVE I'm not going to say anything on that poiunt and u know why I am sure (I'm a nooblet in eVE atm)
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.
No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
you dont understand open PVP at all if you want to discourage gank squads. you do realize when 20+ people kill you it is a self regulating system. how will they split up the spoils? they are not getting rewarded are they? maybe 2-3 guys tops if u had anything good.
you say discourage gank squads- I say to hell with that I want 'FREEDOM'. you get served by 100+ guys from guild well deal out the punishment 1 by 1 later. use guerrilla warfare. maybe this is impossible in eVE due to Titans and all that nutty stuff but its very much possible in most any other game for one guy to get the jump and smoke a big team solo...........
Again, I don't think you read my post. What Freedom did I take away? You can still kill whoever the hell you want, whenever you want. I don't consider 20 guys jumping a single player from a rival guild a gank squad (thats an ongoing guild war, there is no ganking in a guild war). What I want to discourage is people aquiring rare items by taking no risk, and being little wimps who will only fight if they know they're going to win. If you still want to do it, go ahead, but you aren't going to get the (good) gear of the person you gank. You will however destroy it forever for both of you.
Anyway, I don't know why I even bothered. People have different opinions.
Edit: By the way, you would still be able to aquire rare items by ganking someone, but only if they were stupid enough to be carrying it around (ie, not equipped). Just like in eve, the cargo hold sticks around. And of course any gold they were carrying (doesn't apply to eve, as there is no physical currency to carry, although, that would certainly spice up eve if you had to take your money to the station you want to purchase from.)
Edit2: Even better, don't always destroy the equipped items, give them "recovery" rates (just like a drop rate). So, most times you probably won't get anything, but there would be a chance you'd be able to recover a piece of their nice rare gear. You mentioned before you want to be able to "farm" pvp for loot. Well, then have the same reward system as pve farming, ie, there is only a slight chance you'll get anything good per kill. Infact, it would be a much better reward than farming since you would still get all of their non-equipped items and gold no matter if you were able to recover a rare item or not.I think it was you who said that about farming, I may be wrong.
Comments
um, there are all sorts of games out there guy. Golf, basketball, football, racing, etc. many Real Life simulations. maybe you should rephrase that argument. EA Sports brands earns Electronic Arts a fortune every year.
Yup, yup. That's what you find on PvP servers. The vast majority of encounters are totally lopsided because people try to find anything and everything they can to get an advantage. The easiest way is to move in gank groups.
In theory, a hardcore pvp server sounds fun. But the reality is often far from the truth. 95% gankfest and 5% fun.
I don't know, though. It really does take a different kind of game to make hardcore pvp work. That's where Eve fits in. Comparisons between Eve and most MMO's don't work because there are so many core differences, especially the playerbase.
edit: grammar.
There are rules you can apply to PVP to make it non total gank fest.
Why not put a timer on how long until you can loot a corpse? Giving the person time to get back to his or her body, maybe gather friends to charge back and reclaim her stuff.
The timer can be organic in relation to where she died, what level she was, etc.
Why not allot perhaps a certain amount of items you can lock, so that if you die, you'll still have your 3 most treasured items?
These ideas are just that, ideas, they may be crap or not, but as you can see, you don't have to make PVP Hardcore so clear cut.
Oh, and by the way, if i'm ever killed or ganked, i get smart and gather some friends or guildies or failing that put a call out for some 'aid' to get back as my attackers.
I dont just throw my hands up in the air and shout "i been ganked" and shut down...
PVP Hardcore can and does work, and its not as one dimensional as many believe it to be.
it doesn't matter how soft we make it they would not roll on FFA PVP Server to begin with. ask them what games they are playing now
"Hey what game do you play right now?"
"I play LOTRO and WoW. They have l33t PVP"
Um, okay
Ok I got a question for you Var. Say you were out and about in the field. You happen to come across someone with comparable level to your own. (Since we'll probably never see a skill based PvP MMO ever again) He's currently fighting a mob that is giving him a tough time. What would you do? I'm betting you would probably attack that person.
Me, on the other hand. I would sit there, let him kill the mob, rest up to full, before I even considered attacking him. Why? Simply because I think the sheer act of attacking a weaken opponent is cowardly. Also when I beat my opponents. I want them to be at their best. So when I ground them into the dirt. They understand that even at their best they aren't better then me. I want them to get angry. I want them to reflect on why they lost. I want them to consider that maybe they aren't strong enough. Why? So they can strive to become better. Why? So that I will always have an opponent that will hopefully challenge me at a level that forces me to step my game up.
For me PvP is about the challenge of engaging another person. Putting my strength on the line versus their strength to prove which one of us is superior. To me that's MORE then enough reason to fight. I see someone strong, good. Well lets see which one of us is stronger. I don't know, but it seems like from the more of your posting that I read. If you don't gain anything after the fight. That you aren't really interested in fighting. Maybe I'm getting the wrong impression, but that's just how I feel when I read your post.
For me the Risk and Reward is quite simple. The Risk for me is simply having my ass handed to me. Thereby proving that I'm not as strong as I think I am. The Reward for me is knowing that I faced an opponent that was strong. That pushed me to use every bit of my ability, and that I won. Simple thinking right? Yet that is enough to keep me happy. Knowing that I will either live by strength or die by their sword (or whatever they may be using
) satisfies more then some little trinket or weapon I might get off a dead corpse. I don't need fake pretenses to motive me to fight. As someone that loves True PvP, I fight solely for the benefit of bettering myself and my skills.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Conquer Online...some of the best PvP matches ive EVER had..mainly because there was apenalty for dying... and i died alot on that game, but when u became powerfull got was it fun to get revenge.
I can go either way on this issue. I can enjoy a PvP game with perma death, because that means I get to keep trying out different characters. Or I can go on the other end of the spectrum like in WoW and be completely happy with the fun of just fighting other people (the challenge involved).
What you are asking for, a Hardcore-PvP server, is not unreasonable either if the developers can afford it. What people have to realize is that servers are expensive and there has to be a large enough demand to sustain that server. Now lets assume the MMO does have enough interest in a Hardcore-PvP server, they still have to invest more money in balancing classes for PvP. Now balancing classes for PvP usually makes the PvE unfun and unrealistic (fanstastically speaking) for the PvErs. A mage should be stronger than a Warrior and should be able to kill him before the Warrior reaches the Mage, unless he has a spell or enchantment to help defend against it. PvE players don't mind this in a non-PvP environment, except in games where there are so many class choices that one class gets left out completely for group content.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
The bottom line is, is that this whole deal of "risk vs reward" is different for everyone. I am a PvP'r, and by all means I do consider a fair fight something thats good and exciting and gets my blood pumping. However, I find that when there are things other than your characters "life" at risk (since you can respawn) it makes the fight much more exciting. I find when theres the chance that losing your equipment is at stake, its simply....better.
But dont think that if people like looting they only PvP for the chance to pick something up someone's corpse. There are people out there, but the fact is, is that there is a wide variety of PvP'rs who have different preferences.
However, - and I stress this - there is a MUCH larger segment of the PvP population that does support some form of looting, than what is portrayed here at MMORPG.com. They are just muffled by the carebears calling them "gankers/griefers" and so forth. Its such a shame, considering that we are all gamers of some kind and are all aiming for a common goal.
There is actually a large group of people on the AoC forums that apparently spoke up for their FFA PvP server (with loot) and are quite proud of that. Hopefully we'll see some form of hardcore PvP in AoC. POTBC also seems to have looting, but I'm personally more interested in the former. Its a shame that games are going the "carebear" path, considering that it makes for a bland and boring game IMHO.
lineage 2 pvp > all
Why, tell me about the PVP in Lineage 2, as i've never played it, but heard so much about it (both good and bad) and i had a mate who was addicted to it for the longest time, but we never hung out so i didnt get to know much about the game itself.
Spill the beans on Linage 2 PVP
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MMORPG's I've Played: World of Warcraft: 10/10 - Rappelz: 7/10 - Ragnarok Online: 8/10 - DnD Online: 2/10 - Runescape: 6/10 - LotR Online: 5/10 - Anarchy Online: 7/10 - CoV: 8/10 - Rohan Online: 8/10 - Guild Wars: 7/10 - Flyff: 8/10 - Warhammer Online: 8/10
My HARDCORE Story
Why not full looting but "rare" gear gets destroyed or is unusable (all gold is lootable). Or NPCs give contracts for a certain class or race or level and you get rare gear for completing their "quest" (not from taking it from the other guy, but he lost it as well, still risk, still reward). Gank squads don't deserve to be able to loot good gear. There isn't any skill or talent involved. Iirc, in EVE, the ship blows up, as does most of it's fittings. You may get lucky, but either way, the person who got killed lost it, and 99% of the time, the killer doesn't get it either. Rather, they get it, but do to being soulbound (for lack of a better term) it's useless. Or maybe you can only sell it to NPCs. Or only equipped items are destroyed, but all else is lootable. To get actual, skill based, exciting PvP, you need to take steps to discourage gank squads.
This talk about being able to get more friends than the other guy as being "hardcore" is silly.
First anyone that has not played UO or AC1 darktide are just theorizing. No other MMOs have even come close to what this topic is about.
It is great to thump your chest and pull out your huge epeen, but at the end of the day only a fraction of the players that claim to be hardcore actually have the balls to stick it out on those types of servers. A small fraction of dissent among your consumer base is not incentive enough to take a loss on a low pop server. If there was such a demand for FFA hardcore PvP it would be out there right now, the fact it isn't should be proof enough that the demand is not great.
Now I am sure a couple of you will again get the sloped foreheads and scream that there is a base of players out there pining for the gank fest promise land you all whisper about while you shine your knives, but the proof is in the marketing.
I will say it simple and clear for you guys. There is no market for what you want.
Read it and understand that it is your right to dream but it just won't happen. You can even go back to the examples of UO and Darktide... UO had a small hardcore group of players but they lost most of their player base to a PvE game... Evercrack. The only reason UO has lasted is because they can run the game on a palm pilot. 2D graphics and some number crunching... not much of a need for high end server... also at least during the day... some combat and personal calcs were done on the players PC... that is a no no now. Finally we come to darktide... I loved darktide... was a great server and it is a bit like henry V in that I remember those days and call those other players brothers. Darktide had a low pop... at least 95% of the AC1 player base stayed off the server like the plague. Turbine never even came close to putting up another server like darktide because the numbers were so low. It faded away like a raging warriors final breath.
There are other games that were suppose to be hardcore... Shadowbane... It is now sputtering along with 4 servers and a community that deals more in smack talk then actual playing substance. BTW the Chinese and Koreans have taken over 2 servers and they are starting on the others. Can you call in 70+ friends? they can and they completely wiped 2 servers.
When you open up FFA and severe penalties you open up the game to more then you think.
You use the argument that you want penalties like corpse looting because it brings more of a rush... The question is why do you need such extremes in your life to feel alive? I like the rush just like the next guy... in moderation. Adrenaline Junkies have one fact in common... they usually die young doing something stupid.
Don't make it sound like that is a good thing.
And for those of you that want to label me as an accountant type... I fought in desert shield, I have jumped out of an airplane, I like to dive with sharks, and I go white water rafting every year. I am hardly a safe kinda guy... but I can tell you playing an MMO with even permadeath would be minor compared to what I do in real life... so why try to make it into something it is not?
If you do everything you say you do... then you would already know this.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
bah jsut let it go guys we not even gonna get a FFA Open PVP Server to begin with lol let alone good risky PVP. just play EVE or join me in the good ole skool 2d games. Mainstream has spoken- we will all be old men talking bout how MMOs used to be good lol
guy who cares what you do in real life. for all I know you work at toys'r'us and sell ice cream to little kids
PvP with no risk is PvP where Losing means something beyond the idea that I lost X amount of EXP or X amount of items.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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I'd just like to barge in for a moment here and comment on this, as I see it far too often. Why does everybody assume that a "gank fest" is all that would amount in an open PVP server? Sure, there will be plenty of it, but even on a weak PVP server in WoW with the ganking that goes on all the time you can see the other effects of a PVP server. People band together and stick it out, fight off gankers and everything. Hell, I remember one night in Stranglethorn Vale where a huge fight broke out throughout the entire zone. High levels and low levels alike, it was quite a sight. Something akin to a war, quite appropriate in a game called Warcraft, wouldn't you say?
I digress, however. I think a game with full-loot would be amazing, simply because crafters would be valued and resources would be that much more important. It encourages team work, and spurs on wars and fights that through experience in EVE Online I find are quite fun, not merely because of a fun combat system, but because of all the emotions and ideals that surround the conflict. I know if I was wearing a "rare" armor piece (which is a whole different debate, in my mind) and a person were to kill me and take it, I wouldn't cry and quit the game. If my ship was blown up in EVE and I lost millions of ISK, I wouldn't close out the game and fume about it. I gather myself and strive to get back at the person. I've done it before, and the feeling of accomplishment once you've blasted the guy who mocked you and defeated you is far better than winning any roll on a piece of loot.
Also, atziluth, you must hang around with the wrong people in Shadowbane. Either that or you're making baseless assumptions, as I rarely see smack talk and see much more coordination in helping get the lower levels ready to fight and such. The Asians may have two of the servers, but I know I give them hell wherever I venture.
Rather than an adrenalin rush, I view it more as a much better sense of accomplishment coupled with immersion.
guy who cares what you do in real life. for all I know you work at toys'r'us and sell ice cream to little kids
So what you are saying is when you pointed out that you go sky diving and other junkie type things it was pointless and a lie?
I added that for a reference to show that not all adrenaline junkies think the way you do. I like taking risks but it is a bit much that you think you can pull the same experiences out of a computer game.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
I support this idea, although maybe not as harsh as it is at the moment. The first mmo i ever played (around when i played UO) was Tibia. Back when i played Tibia it wasnt as big as it is today and the death system meant you lost experience/skill levels/magic levels and all your current gear (including backpack). This was a bit harsh but eventually they changed it to a 10% chance for each item equipped to drop, backpack always drops and you still lose skills and all that. I really liked this way of playing.. Sure there were some ganking but that usually works out since in these kinds of games (Tibia, UO, Vanguard, EVE) people tend to form gangs which is basicly the whole point. What if that guy twice your level beats you up while your killing a puma or whatever? Hopefully you have a couple of friends or a helpful guild which will help you get you back on your feet and gank the guy who killed you in the first place.
It makes pvp so much more exciting and encourages RP. It encourages guild forming, connecting with other players and general kindness since you dont want to upset people who's friends will send you back to the stoneage.
It even prohibits botting, from what i know a botter wont be able to do much if he's getting ganked all the time for his gear and money (and or experience).
...i like poker with no money...and dont mind pvp without any risks (fact is i hate pvp quite a bit)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
Vindiciation is where its at, were the only server that has fought CN/HoD tooth and nail with the combined might of the entire server. We have repeatedly destroyed them, and repeatedly kept them from taking over our server. So If weve got the cajones to do so, why cant you guys?
In fact, when you arent busy touting how badass you are, you know jumping out of planes, fighting wars etc, you should come out to Vindication we have won quite a few of our banes vs the Pacrim nations. In fact weve won 3 offensive banes against them in the last few days
punk rock in new hampshire rock on rich kids!
Check out the mourning political boards. QFT, BC, LKK, TLK, and a few other clans do nothing but trash talk in and out of game. A TLK member even made threats/derogatory statements about another guilds children... Since mourning is only 1 of 2 viable servers that have not been over run by the Chinese and Koreans... my guess is you have seen at least some of it... why you want to marginalize it is beyond me. Also lets not forget that any of the decent guilds dictate what toons you play and the templates you use to level those toons. Shadowbane is not so much a game anymore as it is a job unless you want to get rolled repeatedly.
Vindiciation is where its at, were the only server that has fought CN/HoD tooth and nail with the combined might of the entire server. We have repeatedly destroyed them, and repeatedly kept them from taking over our server. So If weve got the cajones to do so, why cant you guys?
In fact, when you arent busy touting how badass you are, you know jumping out of planes, fighting wars etc, you should come out to Vindication we have won quite a few of our banes vs the Pacrim nations. In fact weve won 3 offensive banes against them in the last few days
punk rock in new hampshire rock on rich kids!
Lol... Arcken I understand thinking comes hard for you... but try to follow me here.
I know all about Vindi... it is the other of the 2 servers I mentioned. The difference is on mourning there are no Pacrim nations... We simply will not allow them... unfortunetly the Vindi guilds are not strong enough to keep them off your server... Read the mourning political boards... several Vindi guilds have solicited help from mourning to push Pacrim of your server. When you are at those banes... look at some of the groups... you will see us there as well helping you guys out. Sorry to burst your little bubble of self reliance on your server.
You really show your bitterness with life. My post about what I have done and do was directly related to another post where anyone who dissents with hardcore PvP servers are "accountants". I was just proving a point that the side a person takes does not dictate what he does or has done... but then again small minded people like you try to twist it. Had that post not sterotyped people I would never have said anything about myself.
Arcken... shame on you... looking at my profile to try and make personal attacks... NH is where I am now... not where I grew up... of course if I say anything about my past you will call me out as bragging or something else just as inane to try to comfort your own short falls. I have worked hard all my life and apparently unlike yourself I have been successful.
Since you brought up my current state... let me ask you a simple question... what did Illinois or Colorado ever bring to punk rock? Since you are from those punk rock meccas I figure you can enlighten me.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
but simple losing items or char isnt hardcore enough
if u lose in pvp..ur CPU must burn..or something that completely kills your motherboard
losing chars or items isnt hardcore pvp..its for carebears
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
you dont understand open PVP at all if you want to discourage gank squads. you do realize when 20+ people kill you it is a self regulating system. how will they split up the spoils? they are not getting rewarded are they? maybe 2-3 guys tops if u had anything good.
you say discourage gank squads- I say to hell with that I want 'FREEDOM'. you get served by 100+ guys from guild well deal out the punishment 1 by 1 later. use guerrilla warfare. maybe this is impossible in eVE due to Titans and all that nutty stuff but its very much possible in most any other game for one guy to get the jump and smoke a big team solo...........
[edit] in regards to EVE I'm not going to say anything on that poiunt and u know why I am sure (I'm a nooblet in eVE atm)
discourage gank squads? let ppl keep their rare gear? bah I am ready for this topc to end this is jsut catering to mainstream. they WILL -NOT- roll on this server to begin with. trust that. so stop trying to make up rules to protect a crowd that wont come lol. they can have a normal server most MMOs already do this. the asian MMOs do a good job at this.No, in none of my examples did I want people to be able to keep their rare gear if they die PVP (or at all for that matter). I'm not sure you read what I wrote. The reason you discourage gank squads is because it takes no skill, and is hardly ever a risk. If it truely is about "risk vs. reward" for such "hardcore" pvpers, then zero risk should equal zero reward. And even at that, I'm still saying if you ever die, you always lose your rare stuff, just not to some idiot who never fights unless he knows he's going to win.
Edit: I think eve has the perfect system for PVP. In the newbie areas, if you want to gank some new player, there is a risk, concord comes and owns you unless you're skilled enough to get away. Sure, some people just sit in empire, but at least everyone is on the same server and people who want full pvp have it, and people who don't can care bear in empire all they want. Having said that, I think EVE is incredibly boring if you're not in 0.0.
you dont understand open PVP at all if you want to discourage gank squads. you do realize when 20+ people kill you it is a self regulating system. how will they split up the spoils? they are not getting rewarded are they? maybe 2-3 guys tops if u had anything good.
you say discourage gank squads- I say to hell with that I want 'FREEDOM'. you get served by 100+ guys from guild well deal out the punishment 1 by 1 later. use guerrilla warfare. maybe this is impossible in eVE due to Titans and all that nutty stuff but its very much possible in most any other game for one guy to get the jump and smoke a big team solo...........
Again, I don't think you read my post. What Freedom did I take away? You can still kill whoever the hell you want, whenever you want. I don't consider 20 guys jumping a single player from a rival guild a gank squad (thats an ongoing guild war, there is no ganking in a guild war). What I want to discourage is people aquiring rare items by taking no risk, and being little wimps who will only fight if they know they're going to win. If you still want to do it, go ahead, but you aren't going to get the (good) gear of the person you gank. You will however destroy it forever for both of you.
Anyway, I don't know why I even bothered. People have different opinions.
Edit: By the way, you would still be able to aquire rare items by ganking someone, but only if they were stupid enough to be carrying it around (ie, not equipped). Just like in eve, the cargo hold sticks around. And of course any gold they were carrying (doesn't apply to eve, as there is no physical currency to carry, although, that would certainly spice up eve if you had to take your money to the station you want to purchase from.)
Edit2: Even better, don't always destroy the equipped items, give them "recovery" rates (just like a drop rate). So, most times you probably won't get anything, but there would be a chance you'd be able to recover a piece of their nice rare gear. You mentioned before you want to be able to "farm" pvp for loot. Well, then have the same reward system as pve farming, ie, there is only a slight chance you'll get anything good per kill. Infact, it would be a much better reward than farming since you would still get all of their non-equipped items and gold no matter if you were able to recover a rare item or not.I think it was you who said that about farming, I may be wrong.