several race/class combos to be male only

Chaia · July 2007

So, what does everyone think about the fact that Chaos Chosen and possibly Chaos Marauder to be male only? Many people are apparently justifying this by saying that Mythic went out of their way to allow female dwarves, espeically warrior priests. Do you think that it is right or fair in an mmo to limit who can be female or male especially with classes that can only be male without having classes that can only be female?

edit: I am not part of or affiliated with anyone in WAR beta.

Grunty · July 2007

What does the Warhammer canon say about these classes. Are they limited to gender?

Darkseth12 · July 2007

i really dont like games that have gender classes but in WAR case i dont really care

jahar · July 2007

i dont really see why it matters, but personally, i can see why the might limit some mmorpg classes to male only, if they are based on brute strength and stuff like that

Adythiel · July 2007

This is why Chosen are males only:

A Chosen Champion of Tzeentch is a sight to behold - warped by the blessings of the dark gods, these hulking behemoths have the power and size to match even the mightiest of mortal creatures. Their thick Chaos armor can ward off the most punishing of blows, while the fell weapons they wield can cleave the heaviest of defenses.

They are huge. Mythic felt it would be best if Chosen were only males, probably with some pushing by Games Workshop. Marauders haven't been denied female characters, but here is the description of Marauders from Games Workshop:

The tribes of Northmen that flock southwards with any Chaos invasion are known amongst those unfortunate enough to be in their path as Marauders. When not invading in such force, numerous bands of Marauders mercilessly pillage the farmsteads and villages of the Empire and Cathay. Chaos Marauders are natural fighters, born in hardship and forged by a life of battle. They look upon southerners as cowardly weaklings, no more suited to the battlefield than a newborn babe.

I don't see anything in there that states they can't be female, but I could understand if Marauders aren't female. It's not anything sexist, it's just Games Workshop's vision of what Warhammer is.

GDMenace · July 2007

Originally posted by Adythiel

This is why Chosen are males only:
A Chosen Champion of Tzeentch is a sight to behold - warped by the blessings of the dark gods, these hulking behemoths have the power and size to match even the mightiest of mortal creatures. Their thick Chaos armor can ward off the most punishing of blows, while the fell weapons they wield can cleave the heaviest of defenses.
They are huge. Mythic felt it would be best if Chosen were only males, probably with some pushing by Games Workshop. Marauders haven't been denied female characters, but here is the description of Marauders from Games Workshop:
The tribes of Northmen that flock southwards with any Chaos invasion are known amongst those unfortunate enough to be in their path as Marauders. When not invading in such force, numerous bands of Marauders mercilessly pillage the farmsteads and villages of the Empire and Cathay. Chaos Marauders are natural fighters, born in hardship and forged by a life of battle. They look upon southerners as cowardly weaklings, no more suited to the battlefield than a newborn babe.
I don't see anything in there that states they can't be female, but I could understand if Marauders aren't female. It's not anything sexist, it's just Games Workshop's vision of what Warhammer is.

Here is an excerpt from a recent VN Board post**:

"But after learning about the male-only Chosen, I was reminded of a section from Felix and Gotrek's travels. For those of you not familiar with the aforementioned, it is a series of books written by William King published by Games Workshop in 1999 that takes place in the Warhammer Fantasy world.

In the First Omnibus (the compilation of Trollslayer, Skavenslayer and Daemonslayer) Felix and Gotrek encounter a woman named Justine. She is frequently referred to as a "Chaos Warrior". She has command of a large group of Beastmen. There are also scenes in which she is in contact with a Chaos God receiving her orders.

Despite not actually being directly referred to as a "Chosen", I think she fits the bill. Her armor is living and demonic and attached to her skin. She is quite powerful (I'll avoid a spoiler here and stop)."

As for my personal opinion, gender in video games has never really been a big issue for me, but I can understand why it might matter to some people. Really, unless its clearly against the IP then there's no reason for Mythic not to put in the extra effort and accommodate female gamers. The latest Secret Lives of Mobs comic is on this topic and I absolutely agree that not having female versions of classes where they should alienates certain female gamers. There's no other reason to exclude the female versions of the Chosen and the Marauder other than laziness on Mythic's behalf.

** - Original Post

BryanBoitono · July 2007

Actually women can be Knights of the blazing sun.,...hes just making fun of the chainmail bikini

Adythiel · July 2007

From that same thread, I take this:

Actually it isn't that their aren't female Chosen.

"Yes, you can find evidence in the lore of female Chaos Champions. I never said there were no cases of female Champions. Adam never said it. No one ever said it. But if you look at the dominant, iconic representations of Chaos Champions, they are enormous, hulking, masculine figures. That's the core of the IP and it's the look we're going for with the Chosen.

- From an artistic standpoint, there was no good way to create a female Chosen that maintained the look and visual impact we wanted without sacrificing everything that could in any reasonable way be regarded as "feminine." We weren't simply going to strap a female head onto a male body and call it a female Chosen."

Josh_Mythic Senior Designer, EA Mythic

So I still stand by my point earlier about the Chosen that I specifically bolded in my quote from the Warhammer Online website. Huge Behemoths. They couldn't achieve the iconic look they wanted with the female form, so they stuck to the male form. I also didn't say there weren't female Chosen. I said Mythic decided the Chosen should be male only, probably with some pushing from Games Workshop. It wasn't done just to deny female gamers a profession, it was done to capture the iconic look of the Chosen that Mythic wanted.

dapsykotik · July 2007

I think that's a fair answer.

naldric · July 2007

I wonder if they are gonna put in female only classes like the Dark Elves Witches

deplorable · July 2007

can't say i care.... ever seen a female Orc or Goblin? lol.... exactly

chaos chosen only male was meh.. can't say i care; it's there game. Put a hemet on, call it a girls name... no ones the wiser.

My dwarf - Brenda from LOTRO can agree with that ! she has 2 beards !

Riho06 · July 2007

Good, 80% of female characters in a MMO are male IRL(yes that's a made up stat but very close I'm sure). Why would you want to RP a woman?

On second thought I'd rather not know the answer to that...

Leocifer · July 2007

I two feel like gender specific classes is a drawback. Not to say that I planned on making a female character just that I like the idea of females in thick heavy armor. Now about orcs only being humans that I can understand, but since some of the novels have shown some kind of female chaos warrior I don't think its right.

I suggest that everyone that is against the gender specific classes give some kind of question about why would they do that when in the novels there have been female chaos warriors

That's what I plan on doing. The game is a long ways from being finished so they have more than enough time to make a female chaos warrior model, a view faces and hair. I suggest they don't make the armor look to small on females. They can still look big, heavy, defensive, and warrior-like, but still under the armor (well under the helmet) look like a female.

Angelfire · July 2007

Originally posted by Chaia

So, what does everyone think about the fact that Chaos Chosen and possibly Chaos Marauder to be male only? Many people are apparently justifying this by saying that Mythic went out of their way to allow female dwarves, espeically warrior priests. Do you think that it is right or fair in an mmo to limit who can be female or male especially with classes that can only be male without having classes that can only be female?
edit: I am not part of or affiliated with anyone in WAR beta.

Not happy about it at all ..more for there reason which though they put it more technically translates to 'Its to hard.' then because they arnt in. It never really effected me cause I wasnt planning to play a chosen anyways. Supposedly at one of the Con events pictures of both male and female Marauders were shown so those are at least sudo confirmed. Orcs arn't actually male ..there mushrooms. As for the subject of Female only classes MANY are estimating Witch Elves will be the DPS dujour for the Dark Elves and they are decidingly female only, so no worries there.

threetwosix · July 2007

Mythic did this before with Bainshees in DAoC. They were female only and, at one point, you couldn't turn a corner without seeing one. I don't think it will become an issue at all if some classes in WAR turn out this way.

three2six

GDMenace · July 2007

Originally posted by BryanBoitono

Actually women can be Knights of the blazing sun.,...hes just making fun of the chainmail bikini

You're a comic old. The newest one is about female Chaos Chosen.

Originally posted by Adythiel

From that same thread, I take this:

Actually it isn't that their aren't female Chosen.

"Yes, you can find evidence in the lore of female Chaos Champions. I never said there were no cases of female Champions. Adam never said it. No one ever said it. But if you look at the dominant, iconic representations of Chaos Champions, they are enormous, hulking, masculine figures. That's the core of the IP and it's the look we're going for with the Chosen.

- From an artistic standpoint, there was no good way to create a female Chosen that maintained the look and visual impact we wanted without sacrificing everything that could in any reasonable way be regarded as "feminine." We weren't simply going to strap a female head onto a male body and call it a female Chosen."

Josh_Mythic Senior Designer, EA Mythic

So I still stand by my point earlier about the Chosen that I specifically bolded in my quote from the Warhammer Online website. Huge Behemoths. They couldn't achieve the iconic look they wanted with the female form, so they stuck to the male form. I also didn't say there weren't female Chosen. I said Mythic decided the Chosen should be male only, probably with some pushing from Games Workshop. It wasn't done just to deny female gamers a profession, it was done to capture the iconic look of the Chosen that Mythic wanted.

Have you seen the Secret Lives of Mobs page? Rory Phillips, the artist, drew two examples of hulking female figures with massive swords and huge, blocky armor. If a single artist, who mainly draws for a free comic strip, can create vivid concept art for a female Chosen in under a week then why can't Mythic's entire character art team do the same in several months time?

When I first read Josh's quote, I thought that was nothing more than a cop-out for lazy artists. I had and have a ton of respect for Mythic and their design team, but that really seems out of character for them. There is no reasonable argument, in my mind, why female Chaos Chosen are not a realistic option at this point.

Originally posted by threetwosix

Mythic did this before with Bainshees in DAoC. They were female only and, at one point, you couldn't turn a corner without seeing one. I don't think it will become an issue at all if some classes in WAR turn out this way.
three2six

Bainshee's were female-only because in lore they're female-only. The name Banshee is gaelic for "Woman of the Sídhe" Read up on the definition of a Banshee.

Dovieandi · July 2007

It's not like hulking female warriors in heavy armor isn't ever done. There are several examples in all sorts of media (female juggernauts from the Unreal series pops vividly to mind) of big, hulking women tanks. It's a really popular archetype. That's basically who Samus Aran is, and the Metroid games are wildly popular. This really does seem like a cop out to me.

jahar · July 2007

you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill.. really who cares? ya think they might just want to keep it to sensible proportions? ive nver read any of the books, played the games, or any of that, and maybe there were some females of whatever class, but proportionately? not really.. hows this for a solution.. random contest, for every 5000 of that toon rolled, give away a key to a female of that class? that will keep the proportions close to the way it would be in the lore, maybe? it sure as hell isnt 50/50

Adythiel · July 2007

"Have you seen the Secret Lives of Mobs page?"

Can't when the site is broken.

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. Mythic, for whatever reason, chose not to create female Chosen. Who's to say Games Workshop didn't have a part in it and Mythic isn't allowed to talk about it. Perhaps Mythic nor Games Workshop can find a look they are pleased with when it comes to female Chosen. Justine in the book isn't drawn out. Mythic may have submitted some female Chosen artwork and it got shot down by Games Workshop. GW is extremely protective over their IP, as can be seen by the latest news of denying any and all fan films. Saying the Mythic artists are lazy is short sighted because you don't know the entire story behind what was attempted. Who's to say it's not Games Workshop that put the kaibosh on the female Chosen. You have to keep in mind, all artwork has to pass through GW for approval.

kjemper · July 2007

Originally posted by Adythiel

"Have you seen the Secret Lives of Mobs page?"
Can't when the site is broken.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. Mythic, for whatever reason, chose not to create female Chosen. Who's to say Games Workshop didn't have a part in it and Mythic isn't allowed to talk about it. Perhaps Mythic nor Games Workshop can find a look they are pleased with when it comes to female Chosen. Justine in the book isn't drawn out. Mythic may have submitted some female Chosen artwork and it got shot down by Games Workshop. GW is extremely protective over their IP, as can be seen by the latest news of denying any and all fan films. Saying the Mythic artists are lazy is short sighted because you don't know the entire story behind what was attempted. Who's to say it's not Games Workshop that put the kaibosh on the female Chosen. You have to keep in mind, all artwork has to pass through GW for approval.

This is so true. Even more back story to why this is the case; Mythic is not the first company to develop a Warhammer MMO. There was a UK based company that was developing one several years ago. About 2 years into development Games Workshop pulled the plug because they decided they did not like the art direction of the studio. The studio had attempted realist EQ type graphics at the time. That Studio attempted to continue development until the rights to it was resold to Mythic. This is where lies most the reson for the statement above and the "new" cartoon type graphics for thissecond attempt.

M1sf1t · July 2007

There is plenty of reasons and examples in lore to allow female Chosen. If you look at background books you'll find a few pictures of female Chosen and Champions in full plate. The real reason is a artistic one dealing with their artist not being able to get the image they wanted in game for a female version of that class. They have female KotBS and Sigmar priests and female Dwarfs. I just hope they don't break lore again and include males for casters choices or Witch Elves with the Dark Elves.

Adythiel · July 2007

Mythic has already said Male Dark Elves will be casters. Male Dark Elf Sorcerors exist. They just aren't common and are usually in hiding because of a prophecy given to Malekith stating he will be killed by a male Sorceror.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by kjemper
Originally posted by Adythiel "Have you seen the Secret Lives of Mobs page?"
Can't when the site is broken.
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. Mythic, for whatever reason, chose not to create female Chosen. Who's to say Games Workshop didn't have a part in it and Mythic isn't allowed to talk about it. Perhaps Mythic nor Games Workshop can find a look they are pleased with when it comes to female Chosen. Justine in the book isn't drawn out. Mythic may have submitted some female Chosen artwork and it got shot down by Games Workshop. GW is extremely protective over their IP, as can be seen by the latest news of denying any and all fan films. Saying the Mythic artists are lazy is short sighted because you don't know the entire story behind what was attempted. Who's to say it's not Games Workshop that put the kaibosh on the female Chosen. You have to keep in mind, all artwork has to pass through GW for approval.

This is so true. Even more back story to why this is the case; Mythic is not the first company to develop a Warhammer MMO. There was a UK based company that was developing one several years ago. About 2 years into development Games Workshop pulled the plug because they decided they did not like the art direction of the studio. The studio had attempted realist EQ type graphics at the time. That Studio attempted to continue development until the rights to it was resold to Mythic. This is where lies most the reson for the statement above and the "new" cartoon type graphics for thissecond attempt.

That first studio to work on a Warhammer MMO had graphics that were not representative of the Warhammer TT miniatures. Sorry but they took to many liberties and what they had was just amateurish looking at best with the plastic skin tone look about most models. Mythic's version is more in line with the style of the TT miniatures and typical Warhammer artwork. In fact the only races you can sort of call "cartoonish" are the orcs and dwarfs but they adhere to the way they look on the TT. Empire and Chaos characters don't look cartonny at all and I doubt Dark Elves or High Elves will either.

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by Adythiel
Mythic has already said Male Dark Elves will be casters. Male Dark Elf Sorcerors exist. They just aren't common and are usually in hiding because of a prophecy given to Malekith stating he will be killed by a male Sorceror.

Yeah that sucks and I hope they don't go through it but if they do I won't be to upset but I am not exactly thrilled about the idea.

nezroy · July 2007

Originally posted by Adythiel

So I still stand by my point earlier about the Chosen that I specifically bolded in my quote from the Warhammer Online website. Huge Behemoths. They couldn't achieve the iconic look they wanted with the female form, so they stuck to the male form. I also didn't say there weren't female Chosen. I said Mythic decided the Chosen should be male only, probably with some pushing from Games Workshop. It wasn't done just to deny female gamers a profession, it was done to capture the iconic look of the Chosen that Mythic wanted.

This is a cop out. Have you ever seen a female body builder? No, they don't look feminine. That's sort of the whole point. Femininity is a biased concept that we have, based on the accepted roles that the gender is allowed to fulfill. What they meant to say was "We couldn't take our idealized image of a woman, with conspicuous breasts and slender limbs, and somehow make that work in the hulking behemoth role". Which is, of course, crap. There's no reason you can't make a hulking behemoth female. Yes, she will look like exactly like a female body builder. No, that may not be particularly attractive to a lot of guys. Yeah, in a lot of ways, female body builders look exactly like male body builders with a woman's head attached. But so what? Not every female character has to be a model of "feminine beauty".

Sigh.. it's no wonder the dominant percentage of female gamers playing online games (and there are more of them than us, by the way, for anyone that cares to look up the stats) are stuck in online card games. We aren't exactly going out of our way to make this an inclusive segment of the market yet...

M1sf1t · July 2007

Originally posted by nezroy
Originally posted by Adythiel So I still stand by my point earlier about the Chosen that I specifically bolded in my quote from the Warhammer Online website. Huge Behemoths. They couldn't achieve the iconic look they wanted with the female form, so they stuck to the male form. I also didn't say there weren't female Chosen. I said Mythic decided the Chosen should be male only, probably with some pushing from Games Workshop. It wasn't done just to deny female gamers a profession, it was done to capture the iconic look of the Chosen that Mythic wanted.

This is a cop out. Have you ever seen a female body builder? No, they don't look feminine. That's sort of the whole point. Femininity is a biased concept that we have, based on the accepted roles that the gender is allowed to fulfill. What they meant to say was "We couldn't take our idealized image of a women, with conspicuous breasts and slender limbs, and somehow make that work in the hulking behemoth role". Which is, of course, crap. There's no reason you can't make a hulking behemoth female. Yes, she will look like exactly like a female body builder. No, that may not be particularly attractive to a lot of guys. Yeah, in a lot of ways, female body builders look exactly like male body builders with a woman's head attached. But so what? Not every female character has to be a model of "feminine beauty".
Sigh.. it's no wonder the dominant percentage of female gamers playing online games (and there are more of them than us, by the wya, for anyone that cares to look up the stats) are stuck in online card games. We aren't exactly going out of our way to make this an inclusive segment of the market yet...

I agree but the Marketing team and Art team have spoken. When female players start to become more visible in the genre to the point where the guys/gals in marketing really notice them that is when you will see some things change.

P.S. We all start as females in the womb. If someone disagrees ask them why do males need nipples when they only serve a biological purpose on females who give birth and use them to provide milk to their babies.

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several race/class combos to be male only

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several race/class combos to be male only

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