A long time ago they stated that the game is good versus evil, not good versus some misunderstood orcs. Women too often represent life and nurturing, so it is very hard to make them look Chaoslike. As for Orcs, they are all male by lore. I see no reason not to have a female zealot btw, or magus.
Most of the females played in MMOs are actually men who supposedly "don't want to look at a guys butt all day". These are the people crying they want female Chosen.
I was in a similar forum about the ethnicity of characters. And it all really comes down to personal preference, a lot of the people who disliked the idea of ethnic characters because of lore issues, are here on this thread wanting female chosen (You know who you are, you hypocritical panderers), even though the instances of them are few and far between.
I would love actual ethnic characters in the game, it would be awesome. Will I get it? Probably not. If I'm lucky MY warpriest will look like he has RE-vitiligo (watch the Boondocks). Bummer but not a game buster.
GW and Mythic have decided how they want their game to be, so certain races/professions will just have to make due.
Sorry guys, you will just have to make due with watching a hairy mans butt all day. But if its any concilation, the female version would probably be just as ugly, just with bigger breast.
Do I think they should have female versions for all races? Sure, its a game, whatever the players want. Same with ethnic characters.
Do I think we are going to get them? Nope, GW is jealous of its IP and its specific feel for said IP.
And to those who think that females are ok but ethnic is not....hypocrytes. You guys keep saying this game is based on Germanic culture during midevil times.... funny how many women were priest and knights back then.... ohhh yeah they weren't.
Well to be accurate there was ONE... her name was Joan and she got burned at the stake....
I was on other thread against ethnic characters if it is against lore and I am against female and/or male characters if it is againt lore. As I wrote couple pages before. I also see that Arumanh is thinking same way with me in both threads so I guess you are not meaning us Tyfreaky....
If you wont play a game because you cant place a female fersion of a specific class, thats sad.. stop trying to drag sexism into video games.. play a different goddamn class
For me, this is not about the lore or all of you who don't care because you're male and it doesn't effect you. It's about the gameplay and how much the industry has underestimated its female audience. It's about the fact that it is drastically unfair for them to say that they are too lazy to make something available to everyone. It wouldn't feel the same for men to have to play a female than for a woman to have to play a male. I can guarantee that this will come up again closer to release and will be taken upon by people in the industry. Building a game on lore is great, but using lore to restrict gameplay in such a huge way is not.
My comments are directed not only at Chaia but at everyone that is for female Chosen being available.
The lore is exactly what it is about! Mythic's decision to not have female Chosen has absolutely nothing to do with catering to a male audience or being too lazy. Have you seen the art work for WAR? It's amazing, the artists are definitely not lazy.
The reason that there are no female Chosen is for two reasons.
One: It does not fit the lore.
Honestly, there doesn't need to be another reason! If you want a female character there are going to be 4 Dark Elf classes, 4 Order classes, 4 High Elf classes, & 3 Chaos classes that can be female. What is the problem?
To make your point valid we will have to make Greenskins female as well. But the simple fact is.. they aren't. They aren't even male, they are mushrooms! The reason that there are no female Greenskins is because.. stay with me here... it goes against the IP & GW would never allow it.
That is exactly the same reason that there are no female Chosen. There has only been mention of a few (Less than two I believe) in the last 24 years of Warhammer & those were in books & under special circumstances. There are no female Chosen figures & there are no mention of a Female Chosen Army. Ever. So why on earth would there all of a sudden be thousands running around for no reason.
Saying that your argument has nothing to do with the lore makes it obvious that you don't even know what you are arguing about.
Two: Female bodies do not look like men.
The comment earlier about female body builders not looking like females is... well... wrong. Female body builders still look like females. If you put a male body builder and a female body builder next to each other, the differences are obvious. A female's body can NEVER look like a man's (barring any type of medical conditions, hormonal imbalances).
The fact is recreating the Chosen look to make it look like the armor is fitting on a woman's body goes against what Mythic wants the Chosen to look like, not to mention goes against the IP. Even if Mythic WANTED to make the Chosen a choice for female players, GW probably would not let them.
As already stated, if you want to make a female Chosen, make one and name them Sally. Problem solved.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
What does the Warhammer canon say about these classes. Are they limited to gender?
Well in the Lore there are Female Chosen. However, in the Lore, there are NO Female Warrior Priests, and you'll be able to be a female Warrior Priest in WAR
Technically you have the Sigmarite Sisters from Mordheim, which in the IP use prayers and hammers in combat. So there is more of an argument that female warrior priests fit the background story than female chosen.
The way I look at it, there are ways to expand your game to include women, but also ways to cheaply pander to girls while pissing off your core base of dudes. For example, the local pro baseball team in town wanted to get more women to come to games. Their first try was to have food and drink specials on ladies night, which most male fans had no problem with. Then they decided to go overboard and have a "knitting baseball weekend" where the first 1000 women received free knitting supplies and were encouraged to bring their crochets and potholders to the game. IMHO, that's blatant pandering at the expense of true baseball fans.
Having female orcs and chosen is almost in the same boat as knitting parties at the baseball park - it may sound good on paper but few women are actually going to be attracted to a female orc or musclebound amazon with a tentacle or crab-shaped meat hook.
So let me get this straight... because 25 years of Warhammer lore have been sexist in their portrayals, that is now our justification to continue with the sexism? Progress be damned, I guess.
Nezroy....Why don't you do something hard rather than easy.
FACT: Its easy to piss and moan and whine on a chat board and throw terms that are hard to block, because lets face it man, EVERYONES racist AND sexist, if you think your not, your lying to yourself. Anyone here gotten flowers for the girlfriends? Any women reward those flowers with sex? Has any man here had to ask an "old fashioned girl" out because she wont make a move? anyone here felt unsafe in the ghetto? Who works at your local gas station? Guess who cuts my neighborhoods grass? I live in texas, do I have a horse, a cowboy hat, cowboy boots, allot of guns, and enjoy me a good lynching?
Heres another thing, have you ever called a Black man "African American"? If you have your more racist than I am, because that term belongs to presumptious dicks. It presumes two things:
1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america.
2. He is american, because god forbid that a black in another country can afford to visit the states.
And hey, by your line of reasoning, if a man can do it so can a women and vice versa right? Then why don't i just wear womens clothes and call the people who gasp at me while I walk down the street in heals and a dress a sexist conservative who is choking the countries growth?
Heres another way to look at the situation:
you now have the opputunity to change the game without actually being in beta ( I assume your not, I could be wrong). Start a petition. Get a board together, send out some emails, ake some mirror accounts on other forums and ask for some support.
Start a petition. It's the only way to get anyone to notice. I wouldn't be upset if you where looking for a solution. But instead you make like a 10 year old child, grab onto some liberal slap stick, and by doing that man, you ARE insulting women who are deprived in other countries, by lowring sexism to "because there wont be a female character model, they must hate women!!!!11one1!". Just ignore the current state of affairs in India, ok? That way you might feel good with your over righteous slandering.
Ill even sign it.
But the funny thing is....when do we send blizzard a petition about Diablo and Diablo 2?
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
If you are a guy bitching and moaning about not being able to play a female Chosen, and you just cant play a male character even though you are a male and feel the urge to come and bitch here you better go to the bathroom and see if you have a penis still.
If its a girl I can see that have some more weight but please guys dont bitch because you cant play a female toon thats just weird.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC -Playing WoW -Retired- SWG -Retired- EVE -Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled) - 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
So let me get this straight... because 25 years of Warhammer lore have been sexist in their portrayals, that is now our justification to continue with the sexism? Progress be damned, I guess.
Ummm no. Because the Warhammer World is like it is. You could also ask why Tolkien Elves are faster, live longer, have keen Senses, and are superior Archers to Humans, that's soooo racist! Or why all Elves are White? Or Why all HUMANS are white in Tolkien? It's just the World he created, who's gonna sue him? Same with Warhammer and Games Workshop. They created a World from which they thought it'd be the best way to set it up.
So, what does everyone think about the fact that Chaos Chosen and possibly Chaos Marauder to be male only? Many people are apparently justifying this by saying that Mythic went out of their way to allow female dwarves, espeically warrior priests. Do you think that it is right or fair in an mmo to limit who can be female or male especially with classes that can only be male without having classes that can only be female? edit: I am not part of or affiliated with anyone in WAR beta.
This is about IP and the Warhammer world. there have been female dwarfes (yes i think it was just one unit and it may have been more of a limited thing than, a real fighting unit).
However the Ip does pretty much limited chosen to being men (as they are men).
Still this doesn't bother me as i bet you 100% that a DE class will be female only. And i think all greenskins are more male than anything.(they are non gendered i believe but ehh).
Still why can't we have sex limited classes ? I think is better than not having them , its called depth.
Oh also for the people who think that females can do anything males can do ... stop drinking the kool-aid, cuz thats not true...
Just like females vs males, Males can not do everything females can... This is a fact.
Males and females are not the same and are not equal in all things. However, in their worth as human beings they are equal, this is what the PC mongers seem to miss from their enlightened perches.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
So let me get this straight... because 25 years of Warhammer lore have been sexist in their portrayals, that is now our justification to continue with the sexism? Progress be damned, I guess.
That's a weak argument. Fundamental sexism is at the core of Warhammer lore, removing or altering it would change the tone of the whole IP. Besides, look at the armed forces around the world, I've done my year in the Finnish army, which I had to do, while women don't. Still, I don't moan about it, since obviously men are more suited for a combat and high-stress environment.
"1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america." - who came from africa.
-this is a ramble and its not readable to most, as i am very tired will try to edit after sleeping.
But i agree with your post. Today the PC army has done more to hurt ethinic relations than help it by forming barries and differnces between us.
Still great post Bryan.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Someones got to do the dishes , and it will not be me. Get workin on that woman. hehe
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Personally, if they maintain the lore equally on both sides I will take no issue with this decision whatsoever. I do not mind what model my character is as long as mythic do not tweak the rules in favour of one gender over the other too much (i.e almost no male models/almost no female models). However, as has been stated, mythic are already altering their lore to have female versions of many of the male exclusive classes (and visa versa for some dark eleves). It seems to me, therefore, that mythic is being perfectly reasonable in their decisions. I do not mind a few male only and female only classes here and there, they add variety and, afterall, its only an avatar. So: allow the boys their blasting dark elves and we'll claim our sigmarian sisters
Btw, I take no issue with the greenskins and if I play this game I will be playing one, they are afterall, as someone so adorably put it, mushrooms. Oh, and if you hadn't guessed already, I am female.
Do you think that a Chaos female is easy to spot...
I don't think so. And I don't intend to look under...
A female doesn't have to be feminine...go ahead, make it female, it still a hulking giant of muscular proportions, that look more male then most males themselves...
If you name it OLGA, I am pretty sure Mythic won't rename it...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Thats THE most terrible thing Iv ever seen. but then agian, back in the 50's women took a course on how to make men happy at home, and if you dont believe me, look it up. Its actually pretty sad how funny and degrading it is. And because sexism happens, it doesnt mean we should put up with it.
Area84 said:
If you are a guy bitching and moaning about not being able to play a female Chosen, and you just cant play a male character even though you are a male and feel the urge to come and bitch here you better go to the bathroom and see if you have a penis still.
If its a girl I can see that have some more weight but please guys dont bitch because you cant play a female toon thats just weird.
I dont think any male here is upset yet that they cant play a chosen female, but I could be wrong. Im pretty sure all the arguments here are fundamental in nature.
Jetrpg said:
"1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america." - who came from africa.
-this is a ramble and its not readable to most, as i am very tired will try to edit after sleeping.
Yes, I realise that south america also traded in slaves, but with coffee and other mineral exports, but if a family has lived in South America for 5 or 6 generations, their going to want to be recognized as what they are. But thats just my personal opinion, I'll ask my cuban friend whos black how he feels on the situation (he probably couldnt care less) and get back to you.
But I think the real problem here, with the argument happening within this forum, is that mythic AND gw will bend over backwards if enough consumers aren't happy, both have done it in the past. So if someone here would please start a petition instead of creating a new thread, I think we would all benefit.
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
So let me sum up the counter-arguments I've seen so far, for the sake of brevity. If I missed any, feel free to flame some more.
1) All of the world's problems must be fixed in their order of severity. It's not OK for me to even pick up some litter on the street so long as there are starving children in Africa and genital mutilation in Iran. If I pick up that litter, I'm probably a hypocrite and possibly a bleeding heart liberal.
2) It's ridiculous and weird for a group that is not directly affected by the issue (in this case, men, I guess) to have a desire to fix the issue. I guess I'll call up the 60s and let the Freedom Riders know that their efforts were suspicious and possibly emasculating.
3) A long and widely recognized tradition of cultural bias bordering on racism and sexism in the fantasy genre (and in life in general) is sufficient justification to keep things status quo. It is imperative that we do not try to make the world a better place on a daily basis, because "that's the way things are" and it's foolish to try and change the world.
4) The aforementioned cultural bias is OK, because "we all know" that women cannot serve effectively or at the same level as men in a combat role, even though no such proof exists to date. (And anyone who bothers to find and link the PTSD study, I applaud you for proving that women seek help for mental health issues more readily than men -- a widely known and accepted phenomena. Unfortunately, it proves little else).
Entertainingly enough, the counter-arguments are all pretty obviously self-defeating, so I don't even have to make any new points this time around. But I will anyway. Females account for more than half of online gaming users, when the entire spectrum of online games are taken into consideration. The FPS and fantasy online genre are pretty much the only bastions of male dominance remaining. I find it amazing that the industry has worked so diligently to maintain this status quo, even at the personal sacrifice of losing out on almost half of the potential market. This kind of dedication to their anti-cause is commendable.
In response to the OP, correct me if I'm wrong but War seems to be a game with Lore that limits certain demographics from being represented in the game. My suggestion to those that don't make the "fit" and aren't happy about it, simply don't buy it. Money talks, BS Walks. Let your money do the talking.
The gender issue is a bit surprising considering there are so many female gamers playing online games nowadays ( http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061006-7922.html ) But if that's the lore of the game, and they don't mind alienating half the human race, so be it. Games like this seem to attract a certain kind of community we probably wouldn't like anyway /shrug. Thankfully nowadays we have choices in MMO's and aren't limited to only a few as before.
Do you think that a Chaos female is easy to spot...
I don't think so. And I don't intend to look under...
A female doesn't have to be feminine...go ahead, make it female, it still a hulking giant of muscular proportions, that look more male then most males themselves...
If you name it OLGA, I am pretty sure Mythic won't rename it...
Not all Chaos females would be hard to spot lol, not all the followers of chaos are mutated freaks. the ones that are freaks have earned their mutations, they are gifts from the Chaos god they worship. They have tribes that live just like the Norse from before the middle-ages, theb don't all stay inside forts made of flesh and other twisted things. If you look at the zealot artwork/screens you can easily tell which is the female one.
And I am not talking about mutations. I am talking about 100 lbs of extra muscles + fat, your sex hardly matter under these. It is hardly noticeable. We don't see males CW of 150 lbs...more like 250-300 lbs; mostly of muscles...same for females...now tell me how do you recognize the sex? You don't. Do you see the breast of a woman of 225 lbs of muscles? No. Does her facial seem feminine? Not particuliarly under the crass, the scars...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
People can go on all day about sexist this and sexist that, but the real questions are 1) Will it break the game? (I'm going to say no) 2) Will you not play the game due to a few classes only allowing one sex choice? (I'm going to assume there is going to be an all female class as well) 3) Why do you really care? It's a video game and doesn't really impact real life in any significant manner. It's not like the government is going to follow the example of a game and decide that women can longer be doctors and men can no longer be lawyers. It's a game. Find something that matters to complain about. You might actually make a difference in the world.
I'm just going to quote myself for truth. Why does it keep going on and on and on?
While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?
I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons.
I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen.
As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions.
On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few.
Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline.
As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
Making a Chosen depicted as a female does a tremendous crime to Chaos Chosen in general.
Did Chaos Chosen Females Exist in the IP? Im sure they do. But they would be extremely rare, extremely rare. Not enough to merit allowing them to be played in a great frequency in all honesty.
I think to say otherwise is to greedy and not respect the Warhammer universe, and instead try to conform it to please a "modern" appeal.
The job of Mythic is not to "Break the Mold" and evolve the Warhammer world as they see fit, and therefore they made the right decision to keep Chosen as male.
Personally I like that they are going for gender specific classes, I hope they carry that through to mounts as well in the future. I can't recall a game since UO that actually held to its cannon, specifically that only female characters could ride unicorns, and only male characters could ride Ki-rin.
While i do not expect to see them at launch or even at the first expansion, there are female-only Brettonian classes possible (think the Lady of the Lake - that is not a "guys too" class!) and various units particularly in the elven armies.
The obvious point though is that while women often play male avatars to conceal the fact they are who they are, I am sure I am not alone in that I prefer to play a character of my gender, so if I a class is "male avatar only" unless there is a suitable alternative for me to play well, part of the game content is effectively unavailable to me. I don't care if I cannot be a female chosen (I mean honestly, why would you want to?); but if I cannot play a heavy armour Chaos warrior then yes, it will diminish my play options and perhaps reduce "replayability" that holy grail of keeping customers in many games.
And yes, in a low-gritty-fantasy world there should be divisions between male/female characters - it adds to the feel of the world. But if you tell female players "you must be a guy avatar to play this" then that, for me, is only ok if there is a female-only class out there to add something back to make up for it. Slaneesh champion (female avatar only) ? They have massive choice to put things in, the Warhammer cannon is so rich.
Comments
A long time ago they stated that the game is good versus evil, not good versus some misunderstood orcs. Women too often represent life and nurturing, so it is very hard to make them look Chaoslike. As for Orcs, they are all male by lore. I see no reason not to have a female zealot btw, or magus.
Area66:
Most of the females played in MMOs are actually men who supposedly "don't want to look at a guys butt all day". These are the people crying they want female Chosen.
I was in a similar forum about the ethnicity of characters. And it all really comes down to personal preference, a lot of the people who disliked the idea of ethnic characters because of lore issues, are here on this thread wanting female chosen (You know who you are, you hypocritical panderers), even though the instances of them are few and far between.
I would love actual ethnic characters in the game, it would be awesome. Will I get it? Probably not. If I'm lucky MY warpriest will look like he has RE-vitiligo (watch the Boondocks). Bummer but not a game buster.
GW and Mythic have decided how they want their game to be, so certain races/professions will just have to make due.
Sorry guys, you will just have to make due with watching a hairy mans butt all day. But if its any concilation, the female version would probably be just as ugly, just with bigger breast.
Do I think they should have female versions for all races? Sure, its a game, whatever the players want. Same with ethnic characters.
Do I think we are going to get them? Nope, GW is jealous of its IP and its specific feel for said IP.
And to those who think that females are ok but ethnic is not....hypocrytes. You guys keep saying this game is based on Germanic culture during midevil times.... funny how many women were priest and knights back then.... ohhh yeah they weren't.
Well to be accurate there was ONE... her name was Joan and she got burned at the stake....
I was on other thread against ethnic characters if it is against lore and I am against female and/or male characters if it is againt lore. As I wrote couple pages before. I also see that Arumanh is thinking same way with me in both threads so I guess you are not meaning us Tyfreaky....
If you wont play a game because you cant place a female fersion of a specific class, thats sad.. stop trying to drag sexism into video games.. play a different goddamn class
My comments are directed not only at Chaia but at everyone that is for female Chosen being available.
The lore is exactly what it is about! Mythic's decision to not have female Chosen has absolutely nothing to do with catering to a male audience or being too lazy. Have you seen the art work for WAR? It's amazing, the artists are definitely not lazy.
The reason that there are no female Chosen is for two reasons.
One: It does not fit the lore.
Honestly, there doesn't need to be another reason! If you want a female character there are going to be 4 Dark Elf classes, 4 Order classes, 4 High Elf classes, & 3 Chaos classes that can be female. What is the problem?
To make your point valid we will have to make Greenskins female as well. But the simple fact is.. they aren't. They aren't even male, they are mushrooms! The reason that there are no female Greenskins is because.. stay with me here... it goes against the IP & GW would never allow it.
That is exactly the same reason that there are no female Chosen. There has only been mention of a few (Less than two I believe) in the last 24 years of Warhammer & those were in books & under special circumstances. There are no female Chosen figures & there are no mention of a Female Chosen Army. Ever. So why on earth would there all of a sudden be thousands running around for no reason.
Saying that your argument has nothing to do with the lore makes it obvious that you don't even know what you are arguing about.
Two: Female bodies do not look like men.
The comment earlier about female body builders not looking like females is... well... wrong. Female body builders still look like females. If you put a male body builder and a female body builder next to each other, the differences are obvious. A female's body can NEVER look like a man's (barring any type of medical conditions, hormonal imbalances).
The fact is recreating the Chosen look to make it look like the armor is fitting on a woman's body goes against what Mythic wants the Chosen to look like, not to mention goes against the IP. Even if Mythic WANTED to make the Chosen a choice for female players, GW probably would not let them.
As already stated, if you want to make a female Chosen, make one and name them Sally. Problem solved.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Well in the Lore there are Female Chosen. However, in the Lore, there are NO Female Warrior Priests, and you'll be able to be a female Warrior Priest in WAR
Technically you have the Sigmarite Sisters from Mordheim, which in the IP use prayers and hammers in combat. So there is more of an argument that female warrior priests fit the background story than female chosen.
The way I look at it, there are ways to expand your game to include women, but also ways to cheaply pander to girls while pissing off your core base of dudes. For example, the local pro baseball team in town wanted to get more women to come to games. Their first try was to have food and drink specials on ladies night, which most male fans had no problem with. Then they decided to go overboard and have a "knitting baseball weekend" where the first 1000 women received free knitting supplies and were encouraged to bring their crochets and potholders to the game. IMHO, that's blatant pandering at the expense of true baseball fans.
Having female orcs and chosen is almost in the same boat as knitting parties at the baseball park - it may sound good on paper but few women are actually going to be attracted to a female orc or musclebound amazon with a tentacle or crab-shaped meat hook.
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So let me get this straight... because 25 years of Warhammer lore have been sexist in their portrayals, that is now our justification to continue with the sexism? Progress be damned, I guess.
Nezroy....Why don't you do something hard rather than easy.
FACT: Its easy to piss and moan and whine on a chat board and throw terms that are hard to block, because lets face it man, EVERYONES racist AND sexist, if you think your not, your lying to yourself. Anyone here gotten flowers for the girlfriends? Any women reward those flowers with sex? Has any man here had to ask an "old fashioned girl" out because she wont make a move? anyone here felt unsafe in the ghetto? Who works at your local gas station? Guess who cuts my neighborhoods grass? I live in texas, do I have a horse, a cowboy hat, cowboy boots, allot of guns, and enjoy me a good lynching?
Heres another thing, have you ever called a Black man "African American"? If you have your more racist than I am, because that term belongs to presumptious dicks. It presumes two things:
1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america.
2. He is american, because god forbid that a black in another country can afford to visit the states.
And hey, by your line of reasoning, if a man can do it so can a women and vice versa right? Then why don't i just wear womens clothes and call the people who gasp at me while I walk down the street in heals and a dress a sexist conservative who is choking the countries growth?
Heres another way to look at the situation:
you now have the opputunity to change the game without actually being in beta ( I assume your not, I could be wrong). Start a petition. Get a board together, send out some emails, ake some mirror accounts on other forums and ask for some support.
Start a petition. It's the only way to get anyone to notice. I wouldn't be upset if you where looking for a solution. But instead you make like a 10 year old child, grab onto some liberal slap stick, and by doing that man, you ARE insulting women who are deprived in other countries, by lowring sexism to "because there wont be a female character model, they must hate women!!!!11one1!". Just ignore the current state of affairs in India, ok? That way you might feel good with your over righteous slandering.
Ill even sign it.
But the funny thing is....when do we send blizzard a petition about Diablo and Diablo 2?
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
If you are a guy bitching and moaning about not being able to play a female Chosen, and you just cant play a male character even though you are a male and feel the urge to come and bitch here you better go to the bathroom and see if you have a penis still.
If its a girl I can see that have some more weight but please guys dont bitch because you cant play a female toon thats just weird.
A man dies daily, only to be reborn in the morning, bigger, better and wiser.
-Playing AoC
-Playing WoW
-Retired- SWG
-Retired- EVE
-Retired- LotR
Computer (- Phenom 9600 Black Edition @ 2.81 Ghz (Quad Core CPU)- Gigabyte MA790FX-DS5 - 4 Gigs of PC 8500 ram (1066)- EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS PCI Express 2.0 - WD 500GB 7500RPM - Zalman CPU cooler (air cooled)
- 24" Widescreen 1080P HD display).
Ummm no. Because the Warhammer World is like it is. You could also ask why Tolkien Elves are faster, live longer, have keen Senses, and are superior Archers to Humans, that's soooo racist! Or why all Elves are White? Or Why all HUMANS are white in Tolkien? It's just the World he created, who's gonna sue him? Same with Warhammer and Games Workshop. They created a World from which they thought it'd be the best way to set it up.
It's fantasy, not racism or sexism.
This is about IP and the Warhammer world. there have been female dwarfes (yes i think it was just one unit and it may have been more of a limited thing than, a real fighting unit).
However the Ip does pretty much limited chosen to being men (as they are men).
Still this doesn't bother me as i bet you 100% that a DE class will be female only. And i think all greenskins are more male than anything.(they are non gendered i believe but ehh).
Still why can't we have sex limited classes ? I think is better than not having them , its called depth.
Oh also for the people who think that females can do anything males can do ... stop drinking the kool-aid, cuz thats not true...
Just like females vs males, Males can not do everything females can... This is a fact.
Males and females are not the same and are not equal in all things. However, in their worth as human beings they are equal, this is what the PC mongers seem to miss from their enlightened perches.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
"1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america." - who came from africa.
-this is a ramble and its not readable to most, as i am very tired will try to edit after sleeping.
But i agree with your post. Today the PC army has done more to hurt ethinic relations than help it by forming barries and differnces between us.
Still great post Bryan.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
How's this for enlightenmen? http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/img/sexist-board-game.jpg
Sexism happens, deal with it.
Someones got to do the dishes , and it will not be me. Get workin on that woman. hehe
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Personally, if they maintain the lore equally on both sides I will take no issue with this decision whatsoever. I do not mind what model my character is as long as mythic do not tweak the rules in favour of one gender over the other too much (i.e almost no male models/almost no female models). However, as has been stated, mythic are already altering their lore to have female versions of many of the male exclusive classes (and visa versa for some dark eleves). It seems to me, therefore, that mythic is being perfectly reasonable in their decisions. I do not mind a few male only and female only classes here and there, they add variety and, afterall, its only an avatar. So: allow the boys their blasting dark elves and we'll claim our sigmarian sisters
Btw, I take no issue with the greenskins and if I play this game I will be playing one, they are afterall, as someone so adorably put it, mushrooms. Oh, and if you hadn't guessed already, I am female.
Who is to say if your Chaos is male or female?
Do you think that a Chaos female is easy to spot...
I don't think so. And I don't intend to look under...
A female doesn't have to be feminine...go ahead, make it female, it still a hulking giant of muscular proportions, that look more male then most males themselves...
If you name it OLGA, I am pretty sure Mythic won't rename it...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Hrothmand said:
How's this for enlightenmen? http://www.funnyhub.com/pictures/img/sexist-board-game.jpg
Sexism happens, deal with it.
Thats THE most terrible thing Iv ever seen. but then agian, back in the 50's women took a course on how to make men happy at home, and if you dont believe me, look it up. Its actually pretty sad how funny and degrading it is. And because sexism happens, it doesnt mean we should put up with it.
Area84 said:
If you are a guy bitching and moaning about not being able to play a female Chosen, and you just cant play a male character even though you are a male and feel the urge to come and bitch here you better go to the bathroom and see if you have a penis still.
If its a girl I can see that have some more weight but please guys dont bitch because you cant play a female toon thats just weird.
I dont think any male here is upset yet that they cant play a chosen female, but I could be wrong. Im pretty sure all the arguments here are fundamental in nature.
Jetrpg said:
"1. His ancestors are from Africa, forget for a moment that many blacks are from south america." - who came from africa.
-this is a ramble and its not readable to most, as i am very tired will try to edit after sleeping.
Yes, I realise that south america also traded in slaves, but with coffee and other mineral exports, but if a family has lived in South America for 5 or 6 generations, their going to want to be recognized as what they are. But thats just my personal opinion, I'll ask my cuban friend whos black how he feels on the situation (he probably couldnt care less) and get back to you.
But I think the real problem here, with the argument happening within this forum, is that mythic AND gw will bend over backwards if enough consumers aren't happy, both have done it in the past. So if someone here would please start a petition instead of creating a new thread, I think we would all benefit.
I find it kinda funny, I find it kinda sad, The dreams in which I'm dieing are the best I've ever had.
So let me sum up the counter-arguments I've seen so far, for the sake of brevity. If I missed any, feel free to flame some more.
1) All of the world's problems must be fixed in their order of severity. It's not OK for me to even pick up some litter on the street so long as there are starving children in Africa and genital mutilation in Iran. If I pick up that litter, I'm probably a hypocrite and possibly a bleeding heart liberal.
2) It's ridiculous and weird for a group that is not directly affected by the issue (in this case, men, I guess) to have a desire to fix the issue. I guess I'll call up the 60s and let the Freedom Riders know that their efforts were suspicious and possibly emasculating.
3) A long and widely recognized tradition of cultural bias bordering on racism and sexism in the fantasy genre (and in life in general) is sufficient justification to keep things status quo. It is imperative that we do not try to make the world a better place on a daily basis, because "that's the way things are" and it's foolish to try and change the world.
4) The aforementioned cultural bias is OK, because "we all know" that women cannot serve effectively or at the same level as men in a combat role, even though no such proof exists to date. (And anyone who bothers to find and link the PTSD study, I applaud you for proving that women seek help for mental health issues more readily than men -- a widely known and accepted phenomena. Unfortunately, it proves little else).
Entertainingly enough, the counter-arguments are all pretty obviously self-defeating, so I don't even have to make any new points this time around. But I will anyway. Females account for more than half of online gaming users, when the entire spectrum of online games are taken into consideration. The FPS and fantasy online genre are pretty much the only bastions of male dominance remaining. I find it amazing that the industry has worked so diligently to maintain this status quo, even at the personal sacrifice of losing out on almost half of the potential market. This kind of dedication to their anti-cause is commendable.
In response to the OP, correct me if I'm wrong but War seems to be a game with Lore that limits certain demographics from being represented in the game. My suggestion to those that don't make the "fit" and aren't happy about it, simply don't buy it. Money talks, BS Walks. Let your money do the talking.
The gender issue is a bit surprising considering there are so many female gamers playing online games nowadays ( http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061006-7922.html ) But if that's the lore of the game, and they don't mind alienating half the human race, so be it. Games like this seem to attract a certain kind of community we probably wouldn't like anyway /shrug. Thankfully nowadays we have choices in MMO's and aren't limited to only a few as before.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
Not all Chaos females would be hard to spot lol, not all the followers of chaos are mutated freaks. the ones that are freaks have earned their mutations, they are gifts from the Chaos god they worship. They have tribes that live just like the Norse from before the middle-ages, theb don't all stay inside forts made of flesh and other twisted things. If you look at the zealot artwork/screens you can easily tell which is the female one.
And I am not talking about mutations. I am talking about 100 lbs of extra muscles + fat, your sex hardly matter under these. It is hardly noticeable. We don't see males CW of 150 lbs...more like 250-300 lbs; mostly of muscles...same for females...now tell me how do you recognize the sex? You don't. Do you see the breast of a woman of 225 lbs of muscles? No. Does her facial seem feminine? Not particuliarly under the crass, the scars...
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I'm just going to quote myself for truth. Why does it keep going on and on and on?
While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?
I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons.
I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen.
As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions.
On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few.
Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline.
As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
Making a Chosen depicted as a female does a tremendous crime to Chaos Chosen in general.
Did Chaos Chosen Females Exist in the IP? Im sure they do. But they would be extremely rare, extremely rare. Not enough to merit allowing them to be played in a great frequency in all honesty.
I think to say otherwise is to greedy and not respect the Warhammer universe, and instead try to conform it to please a "modern" appeal.
The job of Mythic is not to "Break the Mold" and evolve the Warhammer world as they see fit, and therefore they made the right decision to keep Chosen as male.
Personally I like that they are going for gender specific classes, I hope they carry that through to mounts as well in the future. I can't recall a game since UO that actually held to its cannon, specifically that only female characters could ride unicorns, and only male characters could ride Ki-rin.
While i do not expect to see them at launch or even at the first expansion, there are female-only Brettonian classes possible (think the Lady of the Lake - that is not a "guys too" class!) and various units particularly in the elven armies.
The obvious point though is that while women often play male avatars to conceal the fact they are who they are, I am sure I am not alone in that I prefer to play a character of my gender, so if I a class is "male avatar only" unless there is a suitable alternative for me to play well, part of the game content is effectively unavailable to me. I don't care if I cannot be a female chosen (I mean honestly, why would you want to?); but if I cannot play a heavy armour Chaos warrior then yes, it will diminish my play options and perhaps reduce "replayability" that holy grail of keeping customers in many games.
And yes, in a low-gritty-fantasy world there should be divisions between male/female characters - it adds to the feel of the world. But if you tell female players "you must be a guy avatar to play this" then that, for me, is only ok if there is a female-only class out there to add something back to make up for it. Slaneesh champion (female avatar only)
? They have massive choice to put things in, the Warhammer cannon is so rich.
Flute