Are you afraid a Game Developer will see the one hardcore PVP post and your world as you know it will end?
The reason no meaningful conversation lasts on this subject is some hardcore PVP'er can't resist posting pompus, juvenile statements such as this.
While a hardrock, blood and guts PVP title sounds interesting it's effect on the PVE world would be zilch, nadda, nothing. Translation, stick to the subject at hand save the digs on PVE'ers and you'll do just fine.
No one is afraid of anything they just don't care for the elitest tone in these types of posts.
Originally posted by vajuras yeah but I wonder why they even click on a hardcore PVP thread to begin with. I know I would never click on any LOTRO post. Do people just click on every single thread I suppose? people are trying to say there is something offensive in the post to the PVE'er that causes them to troll. well, I guess if i ever start any topics I'll make sure not to offend them and bring on their wrath lol because really im never here to persuade a PVE'er they want FFA PVP so i can never figure out why are they in the thread
ON this website..the little ever changing group of recent forum posts on the main page is too hard to resist. I normally read the newest posts to see what people are talking about, regardless of the game or type, and post my 2 cents when I have something to say...or if I'm just bored.
However, I don't try to intentionally antagonize people, I just say my piece.
FFA PvP can exist in any type of game without it being a MMO, and this is being used more and more instead of objective PvP that can be very unique in MMO's. There are already a lot of MMO's out there that are designed for the FFA PvP but still people complain about there not being any.
The only message FFA PvP threads seem to convey is not that people want a game to come out with FFA PvP but want current games that have large populations to turn in to FFA PvP so they can go on a ganking spree.
So why people are against threads about FFA PvP is because instead of coming up with compromises, they jump up and down yelling and screaming and demanding that every one should only cater to them.
So come up with some constructive compromises and people will take the time to listen to what you say, because no one wants to listen to someone that sounds like a 3 year old whining because their parents didn't buy them the toy they wanted.
one thing I can never figure out. usually when you see a topic about LOTRO or some other PVE based MMO people can have a meaningful discussion.
But when someone starts a topic asking for Sandbox / hardcore PVP people have a fit. or you guys afraid to see us get our own MMO this bad? I mean, you got a ton of PVE based MMOs why be so afraid of something new coming out?
I think both PvE and PvP should have they own games where they both would be happy.
It's not fear.
It's about wanting the mmo be what every induvidual people think is best for player it self. Basicly giving opinions how to game should be changed, even when the mmo is totally worng for them in first place. Also it does happens in both sides. PvE players giving opinions in PvP games. PvP players giving opinions in PvE games. It's basicly hard to know when to step down and not say anything and find better game for them self.
It's because you hardcore pvp fans just wont shut the heck up. And some of us are tired of it. Every single game thats not hardcore pvp gets blasted by you guys in every single thread.
Also the fact that you hardcore pvp fans are cocky sons of a.....
Let me state the average thread here
*cough cough*
--
WAR=NOOB PLAY!!! LOLZ YOU DO MINI GAME PVP, WHO CARE WHAT HAPPENS JUST RUN BACK AND FIGHT MORE LOLZRZ. NOOB GAME FOR CAREBEARS, US GOOD PLAYERS WANT HARDCORE HARDCORE I WANT IT! I WANT TO KILL KILL KILL!!! AND I WANT TO TAKE UR ITEMZ U CAREBEAR
I WANT TO KILL WHOEVER WHENEVER WHEREVER AND TAKE THE ITEMS THAT WAY IT MORE REAL! I WANT TO BE IN DANGER WHENEVER I PLAY(...with my 20 other friends who are running grouped together in the pve areas) I WANT RISK VS REWARD BECAUSE I WANT TO HAVE IT ALL ON THE LINE WHENEVER BECAUSE IT SO GOOD.
YOU DON'T LIKE IT? TOO BAD CAREBEAR GO BACK TO WOW!!! LOLZR
--
Why do we troll them? because we can't let you get away with being cocky, toting your opinion as "the only way to make a mmorpg" that everyone else is "misguided" and your somehow better for wanting open pvp. That's why these topics get trolled.
I have never seen one realistic post in a long time about how they want this style of game, and then come up with a system that would be appropriate, work on a massive scale, and actually had a purpose for the killing, rather then some LAME bandit rp excuse. EVERY SINGLE PERSON knows what a open pvp hardcore server means. Opening a thread talking about them is "fine" if your truely discussing them, and how they could possibly get them to work, if it was done in a appropriate manner without insulting other gamers, then you won't get trolled as much, and topics won't get turned into flame wars.
If you check my history i am a arguer against open pvp. But honestly i want a open pvp, free for all, and with looting. Shocking isn't it? Why argue against something i want. Because i want it in a real way, with a game appropriate of it, and in that setting. I don't want it to be "ONLY WAY TO PLAY" the "THING THAT ALL TRUE PVPERS WANT". As i said before, i have yet to see a topic that didn't devolve into bashing anyone who isn't a hardcore pvper, or "Why don't we want to be in a open pvp environment. Look at the first page of this forum. Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money? that topic title itself is basically saying. "No game can be exciting without risky pvp, and saying otherwise is wrong because of how i feel."
you'll stop getting trolled when you stop acting like one
Look at the first page of this forum. Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money? that topic title itself is basically saying. "No game can be exciting without risky pvp, and saying otherwise is wrong because of how i feel." you'll stop getting trolled when you stop acting like one
Thats a pretty good topic, i agree with what its trying to say that PvP needs some eliment of risk involved.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
I just wanted to summarize an exchange between myself and the OP in another thread.
In noted that full loot creates a fundamental imbalance between risk and reward. Loot that took hundreds of hours to obtain in PvE can be had for a few min of low risk PvP. His counter to this was that “there would be no need to grind for loot in PvE”. In other words any loot you lose is almost instantly replaceable in PvE.
This of course means that the loot is virtually worthless to both players and loosing i9t means nothing. IOW, his idea of high risk PvP is a game where there is no item you are even remotely concerned about loosing. Not exactly “high risk” in my opinion.
lejohn let me explain it this way. In elder scrolls oblivion when I kill a guard NPC I get to fully loot him. Everytime I kill a bandit NPC I get to fully loot his gear. I kill a bear the bear always drop samething unless my memory is screwed up I've been meaning to get back on elder scrolls
apply this same rules to PVP it will work. if u got full looting in PVE apply it to PVP that is what im saying. It will work there is no reason it cant work lol. This is what Darkfall had/has planned. Pirates of Burning doing something similar
When you kill something in PvE what drops isn’t even remotely close to everything that made it as powerful as it was. If you did every single NPC you kill would be dropping full sets of high quality armor. If you are not getting all the mobs gear in PvE how is it “equal” to get all of another players gear when you kill them.
Lets say you have a player who has spent 500 hours of PvE to obtain their equipment. To really make PvP and PvE drops equivalent you would need to make those items so powerful that it took 1000 people working together for 30min to kill that one player. No serious PvPer is going to want to play a game that dependant on equipment. The only game I can think of with anywhere near that type of imbalance are Titans in EVE and those take months of effort from alliances with several thousand members so it's hardly the same thing.
Very insightful post.... and a great point..... why should someone killing someone in PVP be given a reward equal to a PVE kill? Because its harder? No, because most of the times the battle was one due to someone surprising the other person, usually when they were least expecting it.
No, if a game is going to reward players in their PVE efforts with gear of ever increasing power, it makes no sense to let PVP'er take it off of them for 30 seconds worth of work....
how was his post so insightfal he is talking about a PVE based MMO. good MMO designed for PVP will apply both rules to PVE/PVP. It will not be a sick grind for gear either.
That doesn’t seem to match up with the title of the thread. What risk is involved with loosing your gear if you can get it all back by killing one or two mobs? If getting gear is trivial the risk of losing that gear is inconsequential.
Even better amke a game with full Pvp with full looting And with all the PvP bels and whistles on for the PvP community.
Then add a great PvE section too.
Then add a PvP flag with a 1 hour de-activation timer [so only thos ewho really want to PvP can and not for those who just want to paly 'Chicken' wth the PvP people.
Also make it so that PvP is done in seperate zones and each PvP faction victory would contribute in soe way to your faction.
Meanwhile those who PvE also have some way of contributing to there faction too.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
one thing I can never figure out. usually when you see a topic about LOTRO or some other PVE based MMO people can have a meaningful discussion.
But when someone starts a topic asking for Sandbox / hardcore PVP people have a fit. or you guys afraid to see us get our own MMO this bad? I mean, you got a ton of PVE based MMOs why be so afraid of something new coming out?
Are you afraid a Game Developer will see the one hardcore PVP post and your world as you know it will end?
I admit we are seeing a gradual move towards PVP- even Age of Conan says they want a Hardcore FFA PVP Server and Pirates will have hardcore PVP. And there is EVE which is hella fun. But still why the panic lol? I mean, its not like every MMORPG has gone hardcore? edit- to be specific when I say risk PVP I mean death penalties of some sort to encourage fights that really end whereas ppl dont just keep respawning over and over like they're immortal gods or something. just some penalty like item decay / durability hits, etc.
Umm................maybe because you pvp people won't support perma-death.
If you want to call yourself "hardcore", then accept perma-death. Otherwise, be seen as gankers wannabe's.......
Meh, wasn't there a thread earlier today where op calimed that devs are stupid for making wow clones (aoc, war, potbs.. lol) and that if they weren't so stupid they would make a hardocre pvp game instead? Even though it should be pretty clear that the games being released would (theoretically) get a lot more pople than a hardcore pvp game would.
It's one thing to discuss the kind of game you want to play, be it a pve raid fest or a harcore pvp mmo, it's another thing to pretend that the game you want is the only "right" game and everythign else sucks (not sucks in your oppinion, but just plain sucks) Oh, well, I don't flame anyway, but I do find reading most threads about hardcore pvp games rather amusing
They should be scared... the carebears... the original carebears from 7+ years ago... the ones that got the MMORPG genre to rally round EverQuest after their victory over Ultima Online.
Since then the market has grown to something like what- 20 times? more?
I mean look at WoW... how many of those 7 million subscribers are just there because they've only just come into MMORPG land and just don't know any better? Ultima what? Asheron who? DAO-whuzzit? Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I'd be willing to wager that a majority of the folks who have come into this market have only done so in the past 4-5 years- but their restlessness and boredom with the domination of PvE games is apparent on these forums.
The old school carebears should be scared- they should be treating "PvP" like the Springwood PD treats the utterance of "Freddy Krueger." Dare not speak it... because it's going to infect and spread like a virus once it catches with this newer, younger crowd.
Then guess what? No more Hartford summit, no more Snake Plisken. The carebears will suffer just as much as we did. A decade of no one making games for them, written off as some pesky and worthless minority not worth the effort.
I have no doubts PvP will ultimately win out. To deny that is to deny human nature. Deny sports. Deny card games. Deny board games. Deny wars. People vs. People.
Just PVP-FFA with full looting,what care bare crap is that.I want my fallen enemies soul too,which would effectively make him my minion/pet until his servitude bar(similar to exp) is high enough to set him free.Anything less is sissy crap IMO.
So I want FFA-PVP full corpse looting with Soul Capture
They should be scared... the carebears... the original carebears from 7+ years ago... the ones that got the MMORPG genre to rally round EverQuest after their victory over Ultima Online. Since then the market has grown to something like what- 20 times? more? I mean look at WoW... how many of those 7 million subscribers are just there because they've only just come into MMORPG land and just don't know any better? Ultima what? Asheron who? DAO-whuzzit? Do you see what I'm getting at here? I'd be willing to wager that a majority of the folks who have come into this market have only done so in the past 4-5 years- but their restlessness and boredom with the domination of PvE games is apparent on these forums. The old school carebears should be scared- they should be treating "PvP" like the Springwood PD treats the utterance of "Freddy Krueger." Dare not speak it... because it's going to infect and spread like a virus once it catches with this newer, younger crowd. Then guess what? No more Hartford summit, no more Snake Plisken. The carebears will suffer just as much as we did. A decade of no one making games for them, written off as some pesky and worthless minority not worth the effort. I have no doubts PvP will ultimately win out. To deny that is to deny human nature. Deny sports. Deny card games. Deny board games. Deny wars. People vs. People.
I think more to the point, both "sides" are pretty dismissive and condescending of each other. See post above for one.
Deny sports, card games and wars? What a narrow view you have upon the world. What about the people who actually go into war torn countries to save people? Red Cross, habitat for humanity. That's not about people vs people. it's about selflessly risking your lives for others. I believe that is part of human nature as well. The problem is that the human condition is far more complex than people want to accept.
And there is a difference between competition and killing people.
However, as an example, we have the issue of when Lord of the Rings was in Beta. The pvp players were screaming that there was no "real" pvp therefore the game would suck and everybody who did like it the way it was, was somehow "lesser" (show me what you do in "real life" and we can see who is "lesser". When people start making character judgements on video game preference then it's time to start looking at how they dress and what stupid things they watch on tv so we can truly see who is a "loser". Because quite frankly it's as pathetic as that.
Then, we have the people who are on the other side of the spectrum and start crying because they won't be able to keep up unless they pvp (Warhammer is this example. At least according to a rather long thread on this forum). News flash. "War" Hammer. It's about war.
Truth be told, YOU ARE ALL MADE DIFFERENTLY. Sorry to burst your bubbles on this one but it's true. I hear on one side the inane chatter about how people are getting their blood pumping and their adrenaline going during a pvp venture and how that is so superior to anything else and how they can't understand why people would want to fight mobs when they can experience "that".
Well, here is a news flash. Not everyone considers that feeling a good thing. If your temperment is not attuned positively to that experience then all you are describing is someone's idea of "not fun".
Conversely, if you are a player who doesn't like PvP you can't complain about being ganked in an open pvp game. Here is a clue, people LIKE conflict. The ganking is not the end all be all of the pvp experience but is a catalyst for a greater conflict.
It's the shot across the bow so to speak.
Not everyone wants to press a button, sit back and watch their character kill a mob so that they can create a story about it. They actually want to "fight" a real player and have some sort of meaning (within the game world) that is more than just fighting "dumb" electronic mobs for hours on end.
Players need to just go into their corners and play "nice" and not speak to each other. Because making judgments on one's worth (on either side" ) because of "video game preference" is laughable at best.
It's a video game. From what I "hear" on the streets a good part of the population thinks that people (all people) who play video games can't grow up and need to get a life.
So, when push comes to shove you are all in this together. People need to stop insulting each other and start realizing that you are just all different and that's just the end of it.
You want to start talking about "better" then let's look into your "real" lives... if you are saving people, you are a doctor, you are a scientist, teacher, you can make the engine of an automobile purr like a cat, help the elderly, save people from fires.. then we have basis for judinging one's worth.
But if people are evalutating worth on leveling up their character to lvl 100 and picking off and looting characters half their lvl or considering that if they sit around a tree and weave stories about their characters for hours on end, then we can be rest assured the human race has seriously lost its way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Vaj...haven't you realized yet, almost every thread, about every subject will result in people trolling them. These forums are for discussion, as such, almost all of them will result in debate, (sometimes heated) not just the FFA PVP ones. Post that you like LotRO.... or hate it, or any other game, and you will get folks from the other side who will debate it with you.
Its not even fair for you to call them trolls if they jump on your (sometime very redundant) threads to disagree with you. That's what these forums exist for...to discuss, debate, argue and even flame each other over gaming subjects.
They have no real impact on the games themselves, no developers read them, or would ever take a single idea good or bad from them.
Heck this post you just made is actually a trolling attempt ... you are inviting people to chime in and tell them why they feel the need to jump on your threads.... expect some debate, its why you asked isn't it?
You seem to want some sort of thread where all the FFA PVP players agree with each other.... yet many of the posts in them are caustic, with inflammatory statements and a huge flaunting of ePeen over alleged gaming prowess (you are a huge offender in this regard)
Heck, I follow these thread just because it amusing to me to post counterpoints in your threads.... despite the fact I support FFA PVP as well as other forms of gaming....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah....this thread is really kinda pointless. Youre going to have people on all *sides* that troll. The sad part is they represent a small part of each population.
Yeah....this thread is really kinda pointless. Youre going to have people on all *sides* that troll. The sad part is they represent a small part of each population.
That is a big key right there. Each side is the vocal minority and doesn't represent the majority who just play and do speak out on forums much, if at all.
BTW, very nice post Sovrath. If people define their "worth" by what they can do in a game, that is pretty sad.
Just PVP-FFA with full looting,what care bare crap is that.I want my fallen enemies soul too,which would effectively make him my minion/pet until his servitude bar(similar to exp) is high enough to set him free.Anything less is sissy crap IMO. So I want FFA-PVP full corpse looting with Soul Capture
They should be scared... the carebears... the original carebears from 7+ years ago... the ones that got the MMORPG genre to rally round EverQuest after their victory over Ultima Online. Since then the market has grown to something like what- 20 times? more? I mean look at WoW... how many of those 7 million subscribers are just there because they've only just come into MMORPG land and just don't know any better? Ultima what? Asheron who? DAO-whuzzit? Do you see what I'm getting at here? I'd be willing to wager that a majority of the folks who have come into this market have only done so in the past 4-5 years- but their restlessness and boredom with the domination of PvE games is apparent on these forums. The old school carebears should be scared- they should be treating "PvP" like the Springwood PD treats the utterance of "Freddy Krueger." Dare not speak it... because it's going to infect and spread like a virus once it catches with this newer, younger crowd. Then guess what? No more Hartford summit, no more Snake Plisken. The carebears will suffer just as much as we did. A decade of no one making games for them, written off as some pesky and worthless minority not worth the effort. I have no doubts PvP will ultimately win out. To deny that is to deny human nature. Deny sports. Deny card games. Deny board games. Deny wars. People vs. People.
/Golf clap Bravo man!!
That was the single best use of conspiracy theorist hyperbole I've read on these boards in quite a while. In one post you manged to desparage game devs, PVE'ers, those new to the MMO's and a master title in this genre with eloquence.
As a fan of both PVE & PVP I loathe the devise nature of these posts but at LEAST yours was creative. I do hope the hardrock PVP title comes for you guys so this silly rock throwing will finally stop.
yeah but I wonder why they even click on a hardcore PVP thread to begin with. I know I would never click on any LOTRO post. Do people just click on every single thread I suppose? people are trying to say there is something offensive in the post to the PVE'er that causes them to troll. well, I guess if i ever start any topics I'll make sure not to offend them and bring on their wrath lol because really im never here to persuade a PVE'er they want FFA PVP so i can never figure out why are they in the thread
Why do you divide people into imaginary groups of "PvPers" versus "PvEers"? This is a forum about MMORPGs, all of us here (I would assume) play MMORPGs. People are simply reading and responding to posts about MMORPGs and giving their thoughts, whether they're for or against a certain idea. There's no "PvE players versus PvP players" war going on.
Unfortunatly most of use have made a choice and you can see it in the way they post. I made a choice long ago after playing Ultima Online that I wasn't interested in FFA PvP. Most people have made the same choice at some point for one or the other. There are very few that are in between.
Even when you point out that these are just mindless flames and not constructive threads the PvPers still come in and post more mindless and pointless threads for the most part. It's very sad. This one is even deluded enough to believe that PvP is going to be a big thing. If that is the case I cry for the world because as bad as the WoW crowd is if we ever see a game with people who post like these PvPers in game it will put the WoW leet crowd to shame.
The reason I like PvE games is because they usually don't have people that talk like this around. Generally you have to be mature, require a lot of patience, and have a good imagination to play the PvE side of games.
PvP is for those who like a quick, but constant thrill.
I have nothing against them and also hope someone makes a game for them, but this flaming isn't going to help them get any good PvP games.
Perhaps if the poesters who start those "hardcore pvp/sand box mmo" topics weren't able to so skillfuly express their superiority to other players and how hardcore pvp/open box mmo would be way, way superior to mmos out right now. Conviniently ignoring the obvious fact that a hardcore pvp game will never be more than a nishe and that majority of players don't want that, they want the kind of games that are beign made (thus those games are being made)
So, if people who start those threads could realize that such a hardoce pvp game is not superior to any other game, it's just different, and that people who don't want such a game are not skilless carabears who are 12 years old and want to pretend to be an elf hero.. but just people who enjoy different things in the game. And if they finally realize that a hardcore pvp game is not wanted by most people but is wanted by some, perhaps large enaugh number of people to make it financialy sound for a company to make such a game. Maybe then people wouldn't jump on a thread like that and flame op/whoever as much as they do. Untill then however, people will flame those threads and point out posters stupidity.
PS: Tell me you wouldn't flame this: "All the current mmos suck! They are all wow clones. I want a sandbox mmo so that people who don't suck can have somethign to play! I want hardcore pvp with real consiquences to dieing (you get kicked in the balls irl if you die, yes yes, GM will come to your house and do it, hey at least that's good customer service) I want a game that has twitch based combat so I can show off my skills, namely good internet connection and high end pc which allows me to pwn all the lagging noobs. Oh yes, did I say that this mmo would own and every other mmo sucks and so do the people who play those mmo? cool"
A post like that is pretty hard not to flame, or at least be tempted to make fun of the poster and poke holes in his post.
Putting your exaggerated flame bits aside, no I wouldnt flame someone who posted that. People who post threads saying those things are trying to start a thread that invokes some sort of debate and discussion, NOT flaming that so many people enter the threads instigate. People may say its superior, but its their opinion, and they are entitled to their opinion.
Where have you been? that's not exaggerated. I've seen plenty of idiot posts like that on this site. Very seldom have I seen a Post about PvP that looked like it was written by someone other than an 8 year old. I hate PvP but the original poster of this thread at least had enough decency to respect others right to play there way.
I bash PvP players all the time. Until they start respecting us non Hardcore types, then why the hell should we respect them at all?
As others have pointed out, it has more to do with the attitude of those that start FFA PvP threads and less to do with FFA PvP itself. You are not tough. You are not a bad ass. You are simply another insecure teenage boy trying to compensate for his lack of adequacy in real life. It's okay. It's not your fault. You'll grow out of it someday..... Hopefully.....
Aside from that, I find that MMORPGs offer the worst PvP experiences in comparison to other PvP genres. Counter-Strike, BF2, Aces High 2, C&C 3, Supreme Commander, Warcraft 3 (DotA All stars mod), they all provide a much more satisfying experience than pre-Trammel UO, AC, Shadowbane, or even Eve online. Given, this is just my opinion, but it seems that there are a lot of other gamers that agree with me here.
No one is "afraid" of your hypothetical "hardcore game." We just don't see it as being as popular as PvE MMOs or regular PvP multiplayer online games.
Originally posted by vajuras yeah but I wonder why they even click on a hardcore PVP thread to begin with. I know I would never click on any LOTRO post. Do people just click on every single thread I suppose? people are trying to say there is something offensive in the post to the PVE'er that causes them to troll. well, I guess if i ever start any topics I'll make sure not to offend them and bring on their wrath lol because really im never here to persuade a PVE'er they want FFA PVP so i can never figure out why are they in the thread
Hmmmmm.....maybe because most have inflammatory titles like "ZOMG WoW is for stupid gh3y carebears." or "PVE sucks, MMOs should all be PvP and if you don't like you suck." type titles.
So very much like a child throwing a tantrum most people want to check out what the hell is going on with these posts because they are curious to see what ghastly message the OP's want to get across.
I have yet to run across a PvP thread that discusses PvP in a mature manner. Usually the OP's have long drawn out fallacies about PvE and PvP. Then they end with "I hate carebears and WoW = satan.", or "I am such a virtual tough guy and you guys are all pussies." or "Everyone who doesn't like what I like is th3 stupid." type of conclusions.
If there were a PvP thread that was rational, honest and mature with it's message I am sure it would draw a different response. Yet must are just totally childish rants.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Just PVP-FFA with full looting,what care bare crap is that.I want my fallen enemies soul too,which would effectively make him my minion/pet until his servitude bar(similar to exp) is high enough to set him free.Anything less is sissy crap IMO. So I want FFA-PVP full corpse looting with Soul Capture
Best idea. Ever.
Bah,I'm getting to soft.I forgot to add in that you can't play any alts on that account either until your servitude is completed,and your name on that toon will be displayed as XXXX's minion I should also point out that even once servitude is rendered,there is a chance of permanent negative affects happening to you toon during the soul redemption phase,including loss of stats, abilities ,and possibly permadeath.
They should be scared... the carebears... the original carebears from 7+ years ago... the ones that got the MMORPG genre to rally round EverQuest after their victory over Ultima Online. Since then the market has grown to something like what- 20 times? more? I mean look at WoW... how many of those 7 million subscribers are just there because they've only just come into MMORPG land and just don't know any better? Ultima what? Asheron who? DAO-whuzzit? Do you see what I'm getting at here? I'd be willing to wager that a majority of the folks who have come into this market have only done so in the past 4-5 years- but their restlessness and boredom with the domination of PvE games is apparent on these forums. The old school carebears should be scared- they should be treating "PvP" like the Springwood PD treats the utterance of "Freddy Krueger." Dare not speak it... because it's going to infect and spread like a virus once it catches with this newer, younger crowd. Then guess what? No more Hartford summit, no more Snake Plisken. The carebears will suffer just as much as we did. A decade of no one making games for them, written off as some pesky and worthless minority not worth the effort. I have no doubts PvP will ultimately win out. To deny that is to deny human nature. Deny sports. Deny card games. Deny board games. Deny wars. People vs. People.
/Golf clap Bravo man!!
That was the single best use of conspiracy theorist hyperbole I've read on these boards in quite a while. In one post you manged to desparage game devs, PVE'ers, those new to the MMO's and a master title in this genre with eloquence.
As a fan of both PVE & PVP I loathe the devise nature of these posts but at LEAST yours was creative. I do hope the hardrock PVP title comes for you guys so this silly rock throwing will finally stop.
The sad part is, his post is mostly true. To deny PvP is to deny competition, to deny sports. Eventually this newer, younger crowd will crave more and thats why we are seeing more and more people post on these forums. Like I said, hardcore pvp is a niche, and it will only keep on growing. Eventually, someone is going to capitalize on it, and theyre gonna make *huge* money.
Comments
The reason no meaningful conversation lasts on this subject is some hardcore PVP'er can't resist posting pompus, juvenile statements such as this.
While a hardrock, blood and guts PVP title sounds interesting it's effect on the PVE world would be zilch, nadda, nothing. Translation, stick to the subject at hand save the digs on PVE'ers and you'll do just fine.
No one is afraid of anything they just don't care for the elitest tone in these types of posts.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
ON this website..the little ever changing group of recent forum posts on the main page is too hard to resist. I normally read the newest posts to see what people are talking about, regardless of the game or type, and post my 2 cents when I have something to say...or if I'm just bored.
However, I don't try to intentionally antagonize people, I just say my piece.
D.
FFA PvP can exist in any type of game without it being a MMO, and this is being used more and more instead of objective PvP that can be very unique in MMO's. There are already a lot of MMO's out there that are designed for the FFA PvP but still people complain about there not being any.
The only message FFA PvP threads seem to convey is not that people want a game to come out with FFA PvP but want current games that have large populations to turn in to FFA PvP so they can go on a ganking spree.
So why people are against threads about FFA PvP is because instead of coming up with compromises, they jump up and down yelling and screaming and demanding that every one should only cater to them.
So come up with some constructive compromises and people will take the time to listen to what you say, because no one wants to listen to someone that sounds like a 3 year old whining because their parents didn't buy them the toy they wanted.
I think both PvE and PvP should have they own games where they both would be happy.
It's not fear.
It's about wanting the mmo be what every induvidual people think is best for player it self. Basicly giving opinions how to game should be changed, even when the mmo is totally worng for them in first place. Also it does happens in both sides. PvE players giving opinions in PvP games. PvP players giving opinions in PvE games. It's basicly hard to know when to step down and not say anything and find better game for them self.
MMORPG.COM has worst forum editor ever exists
It's because you hardcore pvp fans just wont shut the heck up. And some of us are tired of it. Every single game thats not hardcore pvp gets blasted by you guys in every single thread.
Also the fact that you hardcore pvp fans are cocky sons of a.....
Let me state the average thread here
*cough cough*
--
WAR=NOOB PLAY!!! LOLZ YOU DO MINI GAME PVP, WHO CARE WHAT HAPPENS JUST RUN BACK AND FIGHT MORE LOLZRZ. NOOB GAME FOR CAREBEARS, US GOOD PLAYERS WANT HARDCORE HARDCORE I WANT IT! I WANT TO KILL KILL KILL!!! AND I WANT TO TAKE UR ITEMZ U CAREBEAR
I WANT TO KILL WHOEVER WHENEVER WHEREVER AND TAKE THE ITEMS THAT WAY IT MORE REAL! I WANT TO BE IN DANGER WHENEVER I PLAY(...with my 20 other friends who are running grouped together in the pve areas) I WANT RISK VS REWARD BECAUSE I WANT TO HAVE IT ALL ON THE LINE WHENEVER BECAUSE IT SO GOOD.
YOU DON'T LIKE IT? TOO BAD CAREBEAR GO BACK TO WOW!!! LOLZR
--
Why do we troll them? because we can't let you get away with being cocky, toting your opinion as "the only way to make a mmorpg" that everyone else is "misguided" and your somehow better for wanting open pvp. That's why these topics get trolled.
I have never seen one realistic post in a long time about how they want this style of game, and then come up with a system that would be appropriate, work on a massive scale, and actually had a purpose for the killing, rather then some LAME bandit rp excuse. EVERY SINGLE PERSON knows what a open pvp hardcore server means. Opening a thread talking about them is "fine" if your truely discussing them, and how they could possibly get them to work, if it was done in a appropriate manner without insulting other gamers, then you won't get trolled as much, and topics won't get turned into flame wars.
If you check my history i am a arguer against open pvp. But honestly i want a open pvp, free for all, and with looting. Shocking isn't it? Why argue against something i want. Because i want it in a real way, with a game appropriate of it, and in that setting. I don't want it to be "ONLY WAY TO PLAY" the "THING THAT ALL TRUE PVPERS WANT". As i said before, i have yet to see a topic that didn't devolve into bashing anyone who isn't a hardcore pvper, or "Why don't we want to be in a open pvp environment. Look at the first page of this forum. Is PVP with no risk like Poker with no money? that topic title itself is basically saying. "No game can be exciting without risky pvp, and saying otherwise is wrong because of how i feel."
you'll stop getting trolled when you stop acting like one
Thats a pretty good topic, i agree with what its trying to say that PvP needs some eliment of risk involved.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/138565/page/13
When you kill something in PvE what drops isn’t even remotely close to everything that made it as powerful as it was. If you did every single NPC you kill would be dropping full sets of high quality armor. If you are not getting all the mobs gear in PvE how is it “equal” to get all of another players gear when you kill them.
Lets say you have a player who has spent 500 hours of PvE to obtain their equipment. To really make PvP and PvE drops equivalent you would need to make those items so powerful that it took 1000 people working together for 30min to kill that one player. No serious PvPer is going to want to play a game that dependant on equipment. The only game I can think of with anywhere near that type of imbalance are Titans in EVE and those take months of effort from alliances with several thousand members so it's hardly the same thing.
Very insightful post.... and a great point..... why should someone killing someone in PVP be given a reward equal to a PVE kill? Because its harder? No, because most of the times the battle was one due to someone surprising the other person, usually when they were least expecting it.
No, if a game is going to reward players in their PVE efforts with gear of ever increasing power, it makes no sense to let PVP'er take it off of them for 30 seconds worth of work....
how was his post so insightfal he is talking about a PVE based MMO. good MMO designed for PVP will apply both rules to PVE/PVP. It will not be a sick grind for gear either.
That doesn’t seem to match up with the title of the thread. What risk is involved with loosing your gear if you can get it all back by killing one or two mobs? If getting gear is trivial the risk of losing that gear is inconsequential.
Even better amke a game with full Pvp with full looting And with all the PvP bels and whistles on for the PvP community.
Then add a great PvE section too.
Then add a PvP flag with a 1 hour de-activation timer [so only thos ewho really want to PvP can and not for those who just want to paly 'Chicken' wth the PvP people.
Also make it so that PvP is done in seperate zones and each PvP faction victory would contribute in soe way to your faction.
Meanwhile those who PvE also have some way of contributing to there faction too.
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
Umm................maybe because you pvp people won't support perma-death.
If you want to call yourself "hardcore", then accept perma-death. Otherwise, be seen as gankers wannabe's.......
PotBS is a WoW clone in what way at all?
They should be scared... the carebears... the original carebears from 7+ years ago... the ones that got the MMORPG genre to rally round EverQuest after their victory over Ultima Online.
Since then the market has grown to something like what- 20 times? more?
I mean look at WoW... how many of those 7 million subscribers are just there because they've only just come into MMORPG land and just don't know any better? Ultima what? Asheron who? DAO-whuzzit? Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I'd be willing to wager that a majority of the folks who have come into this market have only done so in the past 4-5 years- but their restlessness and boredom with the domination of PvE games is apparent on these forums.
The old school carebears should be scared- they should be treating "PvP" like the Springwood PD treats the utterance of "Freddy Krueger." Dare not speak it... because it's going to infect and spread like a virus once it catches with this newer, younger crowd.
Then guess what? No more Hartford summit, no more Snake Plisken. The carebears will suffer just as much as we did. A decade of no one making games for them, written off as some pesky and worthless minority not worth the effort.
I have no doubts PvP will ultimately win out. To deny that is to deny human nature. Deny sports. Deny card games. Deny board games. Deny wars. People vs. People.
Just PVP-FFA with full looting,what care bare crap is that.I want my fallen enemies soul too,which would effectively make him my minion/pet until his servitude bar(similar to exp) is high enough to set him free.Anything less is sissy crap IMO.
So I want FFA-PVP full corpse looting with Soul Capture
I think more to the point, both "sides" are pretty dismissive and condescending of each other. See post above for one.
Deny sports, card games and wars? What a narrow view you have upon the world. What about the people who actually go into war torn countries to save people? Red Cross, habitat for humanity. That's not about people vs people. it's about selflessly risking your lives for others. I believe that is part of human nature as well. The problem is that the human condition is far more complex than people want to accept.
And there is a difference between competition and killing people.
However, as an example, we have the issue of when Lord of the Rings was in Beta. The pvp players were screaming that there was no "real" pvp therefore the game would suck and everybody who did like it the way it was, was somehow "lesser" (show me what you do in "real life" and we can see who is "lesser". When people start making character judgements on video game preference then it's time to start looking at how they dress and what stupid things they watch on tv so we can truly see who is a "loser". Because quite frankly it's as pathetic as that.
Then, we have the people who are on the other side of the spectrum and start crying because they won't be able to keep up unless they pvp (Warhammer is this example. At least according to a rather long thread on this forum). News flash. "War" Hammer. It's about war.
Truth be told, YOU ARE ALL MADE DIFFERENTLY. Sorry to burst your bubbles on this one but it's true. I hear on one side the inane chatter about how people are getting their blood pumping and their adrenaline going during a pvp venture and how that is so superior to anything else and how they can't understand why people would want to fight mobs when they can experience "that".
Well, here is a news flash. Not everyone considers that feeling a good thing. If your temperment is not attuned positively to that experience then all you are describing is someone's idea of "not fun".
Conversely, if you are a player who doesn't like PvP you can't complain about being ganked in an open pvp game. Here is a clue, people LIKE conflict. The ganking is not the end all be all of the pvp experience but is a catalyst for a greater conflict.
It's the shot across the bow so to speak.
Not everyone wants to press a button, sit back and watch their character kill a mob so that they can create a story about it. They actually want to "fight" a real player and have some sort of meaning (within the game world) that is more than just fighting "dumb" electronic mobs for hours on end.
Players need to just go into their corners and play "nice" and not speak to each other. Because making judgments on one's worth (on either side" ) because of "video game preference" is laughable at best.
It's a video game. From what I "hear" on the streets a good part of the population thinks that people (all people) who play video games can't grow up and need to get a life.
So, when push comes to shove you are all in this together. People need to stop insulting each other and start realizing that you are just all different and that's just the end of it.
You want to start talking about "better" then let's look into your "real" lives... if you are saving people, you are a doctor, you are a scientist, teacher, you can make the engine of an automobile purr like a cat, help the elderly, save people from fires.. then we have basis for judinging one's worth.
But if people are evalutating worth on leveling up their character to lvl 100 and picking off and looting characters half their lvl or considering that if they sit around a tree and weave stories about their characters for hours on end, then we can be rest assured the human race has seriously lost its way.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Vaj...haven't you realized yet, almost every thread, about every subject will result in people trolling them. These forums are for discussion, as such, almost all of them will result in debate, (sometimes heated) not just the FFA PVP ones. Post that you like LotRO.... or hate it, or any other game, and you will get folks from the other side who will debate it with you.
Its not even fair for you to call them trolls if they jump on your (sometime very redundant) threads to disagree with you. That's what these forums exist for...to discuss, debate, argue and even flame each other over gaming subjects.
They have no real impact on the games themselves, no developers read them, or would ever take a single idea good or bad from them.
Heck this post you just made is actually a trolling attempt ... you are inviting people to chime in and tell them why they feel the need to jump on your threads.... expect some debate, its why you asked isn't it?
You seem to want some sort of thread where all the FFA PVP players agree with each other.... yet many of the posts in them are caustic, with inflammatory statements and a huge flaunting of ePeen over alleged gaming prowess (you are a huge offender in this regard)
Heck, I follow these thread just because it amusing to me to post counterpoints in your threads.... despite the fact I support FFA PVP as well as other forms of gaming....
Don't take the forums so serious....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah....this thread is really kinda pointless. Youre going to have people on all *sides* that troll. The sad part is they represent a small part of each population.
That is a big key right there. Each side is the vocal minority and doesn't represent the majority who just play and do speak out on forums much, if at all.
BTW, very nice post Sovrath. If people define their "worth" by what they can do in a game, that is pretty sad.
AKA - Bruxail
Best idea. Ever.
/Golf clap Bravo man!!
That was the single best use of conspiracy theorist hyperbole I've read on these boards in quite a while. In one post you manged to desparage game devs, PVE'ers, those new to the MMO's and a master title in this genre with eloquence.
As a fan of both PVE & PVP I loathe the devise nature of these posts but at LEAST yours was creative. I do hope the hardrock PVP title comes for you guys so this silly rock throwing will finally stop.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
Why do you divide people into imaginary groups of "PvPers" versus "PvEers"? This is a forum about MMORPGs, all of us here (I would assume) play MMORPGs. People are simply reading and responding to posts about MMORPGs and giving their thoughts, whether they're for or against a certain idea. There's no "PvE players versus PvP players" war going on.
Unfortunatly most of use have made a choice and you can see it in the way they post. I made a choice long ago after playing Ultima Online that I wasn't interested in FFA PvP. Most people have made the same choice at some point for one or the other. There are very few that are in between.
Even when you point out that these are just mindless flames and not constructive threads the PvPers still come in and post more mindless and pointless threads for the most part. It's very sad. This one is even deluded enough to believe that PvP is going to be a big thing. If that is the case I cry for the world because as bad as the WoW crowd is if we ever see a game with people who post like these PvPers in game it will put the WoW leet crowd to shame.
The reason I like PvE games is because they usually don't have people that talk like this around. Generally you have to be mature, require a lot of patience, and have a good imagination to play the PvE side of games.
PvP is for those who like a quick, but constant thrill.
I have nothing against them and also hope someone makes a game for them, but this flaming isn't going to help them get any good PvP games.
Putting your exaggerated flame bits aside, no I wouldnt flame someone who posted that. People who post threads saying those things are trying to start a thread that invokes some sort of debate and discussion, NOT flaming that so many people enter the threads instigate. People may say its superior, but its their opinion, and they are entitled to their opinion.
Where have you been? that's not exaggerated. I've seen plenty of idiot posts like that on this site. Very seldom have I seen a Post about PvP that looked like it was written by someone other than an 8 year old. I hate PvP but the original poster of this thread at least had enough decency to respect others right to play there way.I bash PvP players all the time. Until they start respecting us non Hardcore types, then why the hell should we respect them at all?
Raven
As others have pointed out, it has more to do with the attitude of those that start FFA PvP threads and less to do with FFA PvP itself. You are not tough. You are not a bad ass. You are simply another insecure teenage boy trying to compensate for his lack of adequacy in real life. It's okay. It's not your fault. You'll grow out of it someday..... Hopefully.....
Aside from that, I find that MMORPGs offer the worst PvP experiences in comparison to other PvP genres. Counter-Strike, BF2, Aces High 2, C&C 3, Supreme Commander, Warcraft 3 (DotA All stars mod), they all provide a much more satisfying experience than pre-Trammel UO, AC, Shadowbane, or even Eve online. Given, this is just my opinion, but it seems that there are a lot of other gamers that agree with me here.
No one is "afraid" of your hypothetical "hardcore game." We just don't see it as being as popular as PvE MMOs or regular PvP multiplayer online games.
Simple, no?
Hmmmmm.....maybe because most have inflammatory titles like "ZOMG WoW is for stupid gh3y carebears." or "PVE sucks, MMOs should all be PvP and if you don't like you suck." type titles.
So very much like a child throwing a tantrum most people want to check out what the hell is going on with these posts because they are curious to see what ghastly message the OP's want to get across.
I have yet to run across a PvP thread that discusses PvP in a mature manner. Usually the OP's have long drawn out fallacies about PvE and PvP. Then they end with "I hate carebears and WoW = satan.", or "I am such a virtual tough guy and you guys are all pussies." or "Everyone who doesn't like what I like is th3 stupid." type of conclusions.
If there were a PvP thread that was rational, honest and mature with it's message I am sure it would draw a different response. Yet must are just totally childish rants.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Best idea. Ever.
Bah,I'm getting to soft.I forgot to add in that you can't play any alts on that account either until your servitude is completed,and your name on that toon will be displayed as XXXX's minion/Golf clap Bravo man!!
That was the single best use of conspiracy theorist hyperbole I've read on these boards in quite a while. In one post you manged to desparage game devs, PVE'ers, those new to the MMO's and a master title in this genre with eloquence.
As a fan of both PVE & PVP I loathe the devise nature of these posts but at LEAST yours was creative. I do hope the hardrock PVP title comes for you guys so this silly rock throwing will finally stop.
The sad part is, his post is mostly true. To deny PvP is to deny competition, to deny sports. Eventually this newer, younger crowd will crave more and thats why we are seeing more and more people post on these forums. Like I said, hardcore pvp is a niche, and it will only keep on growing. Eventually, someone is going to capitalize on it, and theyre gonna make *huge* money.