Originally posted by Cabe2323 Yes, lets use the Old Testament which is not what Modern Christianity is based on and then say Religion is violent and meant to be violent. We can just throw out that whole pesky New Testament with the teachings of Jesus that completely conflict with the Old Testament. Jesus did not teach "God's people" to make war on each other. He showed with his own actions how a Christian should act. Also, Saying that Christianity is all about violence bcause of the Old Testament is like Saying the United States is all about genocide because of what the colonialist did.
As Aelfinn said, the Old Testament does apply to Christianity. It doesn't really matter, anyway; I wasn't talking about Modern Christianity. I was merely making the point that religions are frequently violent. If you're curious, though, Jesus himself reproaches the Israelites for abandoning Exodus 21:15's commandment to kill children that speak against their parents in Mark 7:9-10. And Jesus also says that the people of the Kingdom (Jews, in other words) shall be cast into the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:12. So Christianity isn't really an exception from violence that probably seems crazy to our point of view.
Of course, you can pick and choose what you most like from any books and follow that as a religion. But it's not really the religion those books describe. While I don't want to get into a No True Scotsman argument, I think we can agree that selectively choosing some commandments to follow and not following others is not exactly in the spirit of these religions.
Otherwise, I agree with Gameloading. Especially in the modern day, religion is responsible for a really remarkable amount of truly awful things: terrorism, war, oppression of women and minorities, violence, and perhaps worst of all, mental and physical cruelty to children. Based solely on that, if I could wish religion out of the modern day world, then I wouldn't hesitate to do so.
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
You do make an interesting point; that it is, after all, people under the sway of religious thought that do these things, and it's questionable as to whether or not they would stop doing these things if their religion was somehow wiped from their minds. Still, I can't imagine it making the world any worse to have people stop believing, say, that they get to go to heaven after they commit suicide. It might even make it a little bit better.
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
You do make an interesting point; that it is, after all, people under the sway of religious thought that do these things, and it's questionable as to whether or not they would stop doing these things if their religion was somehow wiped from their minds. Still, I can't imagine it making the world any worse to have people stop believing, say, that they get to go to heaven after they commit suicide. It might even make it a little bit better.
Religion is an easy package to wrap information (memes if you want...) in. Why do you think Jews in Europe were less affected by the plague? Because they kept practicing their strict hygenical rules learned in the harsh desert environment. Shame (for the Jews) the less hygenical native Europeans didn't think of this as they prosecuted the Jews.
The strong structure of information spreading called culture lasts for generations and perpetuates itself as lon as there is a need. It's even adaptable. Hence the many branches in the large religions of the world. They automatically adapted as they entered new cultures. You don't think Christmas was an original Christian holiday, now do you?
But of course the more educated people (scholars, nobility, ...) have always found it easy to adjust religion as they saw fit. For example, people in Afghanistan don't learn the Qur'an in their mother tongue. It's explain to them by teachers. With their own political agenda.
Nnow in areas of the world with propper education the choice is handed to us. And with that propper education comes the power to put things in perspective. Now we actually know what the motives were of the ones who started wars. Now we actually know there hasn't been a single war over religion.
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
Of course it is not responsible, only the men and women who made the choices ultimately are. The question however was of whether or not the world would be and/or would have been better off without religion in general. In that case, the point can be argued on the basis of religion influencing the thoughts and motivations that went into the choices that make up the sick currently semipeaceful warzone we call human society.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. Hemingway
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
Of course it is not responsible, only the men and women who made the choices ultimately are. The question however was of whether or not the world would be and/or would have been better off without religion in general. In that case, the point can be argued on the basis of religion influencing the thoughts and motivations that went into the choices that make up the sick currently semipeaceful warzone we call human society.
See my previous reply for more insight into religion and why it existes.
Religion is just another way of sharing information.
Perhaps rephrase the initial question:
"Are people influenced by other people?" Answer: "Yes."
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
You do make an interesting point; that it is, after all, people under the sway of religious thought that do these things, and it's questionable as to whether or not they would stop doing these things if their religion was somehow wiped from their minds. Still, I can't imagine it making the world any worse to have people stop believing, say, that they get to go to heaven after they commit suicide. It might even make it a little bit better.
Religion is an easy package to wrap information (memes if you want...) in. Why do you think Jews in Europe were less affected by the plague? Because they kept practicing their strict hygenical rules learned in the harsh desert environment. Shame (for the Jews) the less hygenical native Europeans didn't think of this as they prosecuted the Jews.
The strong structure of information spreading called culture lasts for generations and perpetuates itself as lon as there is a need. It's even adaptable. Hence the many branches in the large religions of the world. They automatically adapted as they entered new cultures. You don't think Christmas was an original Christian holiday, now do you?
But of course the more educated people (scholars, nobility, ...) have always found it easy to adjust religion as they saw fit. For example, people in Afghanistan don't learn the Qur'an in their mother tongue. It's explain to them by teachers. With their own political agenda.
Nnow in areas of the world with propper education the choice is handed to us. And with that propper education comes the power to put things in perspective. Now we actually know what the motives were of the ones who started wars. Now we actually know there hasn't been a single war over religion.
Thank god for this.
Thats the most amusing thing about fundementalist, they have adapted many pagan holidays , celebrate them and then call pagans devil worshippers, that's always a giggle.
Originally posted by MadAce Nnow in areas of the world with propper education the choice is handed to us. And with that propper education comes the power to put things in perspective. Now we actually know what the motives were of the ones who started wars. Now we actually know there hasn't been a single war over religion. Thank god for this.
I think I actually demonstrated earlier that the Crusades were primarily motivated by religion. Of course, other factors existed too, but most people flocked to it for its religious benefit of having their sins expunged, and it was declared by the Pope for a variety of religious reasons. Or check out the French Wars of Religion on the Wikipedia. They involved an influence struggle, true, but the only differences between the sides were religious ones, and the whole context of the conflict is, in fact, religious.
I agree with you that religions are meme-collections. I disagree that those memes contain information worth perpetuating, at this point, for the health of society and the human race in general.
If you believe in the concept of memes then you believe in social natural selection. If memes aren't worth perpetuating then why do many of them in religions survive thousands of years?
Maybe we need a reality check. We're badass mofo killers who want the bigger slice of the pie for ourselves and would do anything to achieve that. Correction, we want the WHOLE PIE. We as individuals, we as nations, we as cities, we as families, we as couples, we as threesomes, we as unions, we as aliances, we just want to rule the fucking universe.
Many elements in religion are actually there because of our very nature. If we as a species didn't have those elements of kick-ass² then we wouldn't exist.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
No. That's like saying would the world be better without war. If we had no wars between anything society would corrupt...damn it's a famous quote, but I kinda messed it up.
Yes, lets use the Old Testament which is not what Modern Christianity is based on and then say Religion is violent and meant to be violent. We can just throw out that whole pesky New Testament with the teachings of Jesus that completely conflict with the Old Testament. Jesus did not teach "God's people" to make war on each other. He showed with his own actions how a Christian should act.
Also, Saying that Christianity is all about violence bcause of the Old Testament is like Saying the United States is all about genocide because of what the colonialist did.
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive. Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
Yes, lets use the Old Testament which is not what Modern Christianity is based on and then say Religion is violent and meant to be violent. We can just throw out that whole pesky New Testament with the teachings of Jesus that completely conflict with the Old Testament. Jesus did not teach "God's people" to make war on each other. He showed with his own actions how a Christian should act.
Also, Saying that Christianity is all about violence bcause of the Old Testament is like Saying the United States is all about genocide because of what the colonialist did.
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive. Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
While a good point, alot of the stuff jesus supposedly stated were directly from his "father" , while he did speak alot of the OT, he basically...ahh hell I don't know anymore, this is why I'm a buddahist.
Yes, lets use the Old Testament which is not what Modern Christianity is based on and then say Religion is violent and meant to be violent. We can just throw out that whole pesky New Testament with the teachings of Jesus that completely conflict with the Old Testament. Jesus did not teach "God's people" to make war on each other. He showed with his own actions how a Christian should act.
Also, Saying that Christianity is all about violence bcause of the Old Testament is like Saying the United States is all about genocide because of what the colonialist did.
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive. Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
In Heb. 8:13 and I Cor 9:21 talks about a New Covenant and a New Law that people are under.
I believe that the OT was created by God to prepare the people and help guide them to where they needed to be when Jesus comes. Jesus then supercedes the OT (while using it in his lessons) and is the new path that will prepare people for the third phase of God's plan. Now that is my opinion and I do not try to push or force it on anyone, but that is what I believe.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
The difference is, religions kill people because of religious differences. Atheists haven't killed people because of religious differences, but political or racist ones. So, while it's true that Mao Zedong probably killed more than 40 million Chinese people in a famine, he was doing it not for atheism, but for Communism. Conversely, the 1-5 million killed in the Crusades (and that's just Europeans) all died expressly for the purpose of Christendom. Or the 3 million killed in the French Wars of Religion. Or etc. etc. So a religious person's basis for murder is their religion, whereas these atheists are all killing people for something else. This doesn't really answer the question of whether the world would be better off without religion. Probably there would be less terrorism and war if there weren't religion... but if religious conflict (especially in the modern day) is just an excuse for real anger behind broad economic disparities between the first and third world, then maybe there wouldn't be. Certainly there would be less historical warfare if there wasn't religion, though.
I'd say that when the soldiers may be going to battle, believing God to be on their side, the reasons for the battle itself are more often as not about political issues. This would appear to have been the case with many of the crusades at least. Much of what gets branded religious war is not over the ideological differences, but just because they are different tribes fighting over resources and land. Religion, in these circumstances, functions as a banner to rally behind (the ideology usually long gone) and also very useful for the leaders, if their troops gain courage from a belief in an afterlife..
Another point, in answer to Veraticus' last sentence; We cannot know what wars and horrors have been prevented because of the existance religion (neighbouring countires sharing religious ideals, religious philosophy influencing kings, etc), so we are in no position to judge whether there would have been more or less war without religion.
One other thing to bear in mind when discussing such things, is that we can't judge a philosophy by its abuse.
The crusades was about capturing Jerusalem from the muslims.
The middle east has been faught over since people settled there. Communism was no better then catholosism in it's day. The only dif. between the two was that one demand you serve the dictator and the other commanded you serve the pope.
People just need to learn acceptance. Untill then religion is there for some individuals to justify thier hate of others.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). Nothing in that statement drives people to war. If, however, an atheist also has political leanings, lust for power, etc, then yes, that could cause an Atheist to go to war - but not for their Atheism. Atheism SHOULD stop a person from going to war. If you have only one life to live why would you spend it in the middle of chaos, in pain and suffering? Atheism is about making the most of the short time you have, and laying on your death bed with the only comfort being that it was all worth it - or perhaps a terrible regret that it should have been different. That's the only heaven and hell we get to experience. It is also about realizing that, with no afterlife, the time you spend with your loved ones is the only time you'll ever have with them. There is no eternal life, only the one, too short, life. Those who actually think about their Atheism realize this, and they attempt to make the most of this knowledge. But hey, that's just how I see it. - Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
There is no athiest belief structure.
We just don't believe there are gods.
Communism isn't about being an athiest.
Lol saying there is no belief structure is like saying there is no gravity. Of course there is a belief structure, atheism just happens to be pretty simple in their belief that there is no God. That is pretty much it. And I am not saying that Communism is about being Atheist. Stalin thought of himself as an Atheist though. So if we as Religious people have to take credit for the crusades and such, then Atheism needs to take credit for what Atheists have done.
I will say it again, Religion is no different from the rifle or sword in a soldier's hand. It is a tool used, not a cause.
Currently playing: LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too: Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Lol saying there is no belief structure is like saying there is no gravity. Of course there is a belief structure, atheism just happens to be pretty simple in their belief that there is no God. That is pretty much it. And I am not saying that Communism is about being Atheist. Stalin thought of himself as an Atheist though. So if we as Religious people have to take credit for the crusades and such, then Atheism needs to take credit for what Atheists have done.
I will say it again, Religion is no different from the rifle or sword in a soldier's hand. It is a tool used, not a cause.
Don't agree.
Atheism is not on the same level as Religion.
Religion is an organised comunity ruled by weird ancient books, which has God (or Gods) at the centre of it.
Atheism is not a comunity, it is just a word to indicate someone who don't believe in God.
Maybe in America there are convention of Atheists, but that's America, where you got convention for nose picking techniques.
In the rest of the world Atheist are just people who don't believe in God with no will whatsoever to discuss anything religious.
Majority don't even know that they are Atheists.
People are born Atheist, and become Religious.
Religion is an add-on to life, like having a car, or getting a job, or getting married.
I guess if you believe in a god then you can't really understand when I say that if there is no god then there is nothing for me to believe or disbelieve in because it's a state of personal understanding, and as such isn't structured.
As an athiest I can tell you that there is no belief structure. There is no belief.
Religion is structured to follow specific events and beliefs that pertain to your religion. Athiests don't have that. Hence, it's not a belief system.
Being an athiest doesn't connect me to other athiests like religion does. I have no more of a connnection with another athiest then you would have with someone else that thinks peaches taste good.
Christians can draw upon thier belief system to make personall connections to others with the same belief. Religion can draw entire groups of people together simply by thier belief. Athiests don't exist within that same kind of social network as people of a particular religion, sex, or ethnicity.
Stalin was a COMMUNIST. His actions were driven by his political belief, not his being an athiest. Same goes for Karl Marx.
It's not clear to some because people tend to have this kind of twisted sence that being athiest is someones religious belief.
Comments
You drive a hard bargain... But victory is ours for sure. We've been keeping our people dumb for generations! (no education hehe)
They'll believe anything the Book says!!!
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After your liberation forces came into our cities today, we admit defeat, many of our leaders hung for calling French fries, fried patatoes.
However we are not beaten yet, even now martyrs line up ready to "homicide" bomb your troops.
We may be pushed back, but we will not rest until every man,woman and baby have a bomb vest even when they shop for food.
As it says in the real holy book that only we study because we are the chosen "What comes around, comes around".
As Aelfinn said, the Old Testament does apply to Christianity. It doesn't really matter, anyway; I wasn't talking about Modern Christianity. I was merely making the point that religions are frequently violent. If you're curious, though, Jesus himself reproaches the Israelites for abandoning Exodus 21:15's commandment to kill children that speak against their parents in Mark 7:9-10. And Jesus also says that the people of the Kingdom (Jews, in other words) shall be cast into the "outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:12. So Christianity isn't really an exception from violence that probably seems crazy to our point of view.
Of course, you can pick and choose what you most like from any books and follow that as a religion. But it's not really the religion those books describe. While I don't want to get into a No True Scotsman argument, I think we can agree that selectively choosing some commandments to follow and not following others is not exactly in the spirit of these religions.
Otherwise, I agree with Gameloading. Especially in the modern day, religion is responsible for a really remarkable amount of truly awful things: terrorism, war, oppression of women and minorities, violence, and perhaps worst of all, mental and physical cruelty to children. Based solely on that, if I could wish religion out of the modern day world, then I wouldn't hesitate to do so.
Religion can't be responsible for anything. Simply because religion isn't a person. Period.
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But I just had coffee with Religion, he told me that everyone else is wrong but me.
Religion is an easy package to wrap information (memes if you want...) in. Why do you think Jews in Europe were less affected by the plague? Because they kept practicing their strict hygenical rules learned in the harsh desert environment. Shame (for the Jews) the less hygenical native Europeans didn't think of this as they prosecuted the Jews.The strong structure of information spreading called culture lasts for generations and perpetuates itself as lon as there is a need. It's even adaptable. Hence the many branches in the large religions of the world. They automatically adapted as they entered new cultures. You don't think Christmas was an original Christian holiday, now do you?
But of course the more educated people (scholars, nobility, ...) have always found it easy to adjust religion as they saw fit. For example, people in Afghanistan don't learn the Qur'an in their mother tongue. It's explain to them by teachers. With their own political agenda.
Nnow in areas of the world with propper education the choice is handed to us. And with that propper education comes the power to put things in perspective. Now we actually know what the motives were of the ones who started wars. Now we actually know there hasn't been a single war over religion.
Thank god for this.
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Of course it is not responsible, only the men and women who made the choices ultimately are. The question however was of whether or not the world would be and/or would have been better off without religion in general. In that case, the point can be argued on the basis of religion influencing the thoughts and motivations that went into the choices that make up the sick currently semipeaceful warzone we call human society.
No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Hemingway
Of course it is not responsible, only the men and women who made the choices ultimately are. The question however was of whether or not the world would be and/or would have been better off without religion in general. In that case, the point can be argued on the basis of religion influencing the thoughts and motivations that went into the choices that make up the sick currently semipeaceful warzone we call human society.
See my previous reply for more insight into religion and why it existes.Religion is just another way of sharing information.
Perhaps rephrase the initial question:
"Are people influenced by other people?" Answer: "Yes."
Then the next question would be:
"Is this a bad thing?" Answer: "No."
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Religion is an easy package to wrap information (memes if you want...) in. Why do you think Jews in Europe were less affected by the plague? Because they kept practicing their strict hygenical rules learned in the harsh desert environment. Shame (for the Jews) the less hygenical native Europeans didn't think of this as they prosecuted the Jews.The strong structure of information spreading called culture lasts for generations and perpetuates itself as lon as there is a need. It's even adaptable. Hence the many branches in the large religions of the world. They automatically adapted as they entered new cultures. You don't think Christmas was an original Christian holiday, now do you?
But of course the more educated people (scholars, nobility, ...) have always found it easy to adjust religion as they saw fit. For example, people in Afghanistan don't learn the Qur'an in their mother tongue. It's explain to them by teachers. With their own political agenda.
Nnow in areas of the world with propper education the choice is handed to us. And with that propper education comes the power to put things in perspective. Now we actually know what the motives were of the ones who started wars. Now we actually know there hasn't been a single war over religion.
Thank god for this.
Thats the most amusing thing about fundementalist, they have adapted many pagan holidays , celebrate them and then call pagans devil worshippers, that's always a giggle.
I think I actually demonstrated earlier that the Crusades were primarily motivated by religion. Of course, other factors existed too, but most people flocked to it for its religious benefit of having their sins expunged, and it was declared by the Pope for a variety of religious reasons. Or check out the French Wars of Religion on the Wikipedia. They involved an influence struggle, true, but the only differences between the sides were religious ones, and the whole context of the conflict is, in fact, religious.
I agree with you that religions are meme-collections. I disagree that those memes contain information worth perpetuating, at this point, for the health of society and the human race in general.
If you believe in the concept of memes then you believe in social natural selection. If memes aren't worth perpetuating then why do many of them in religions survive thousands of years?
Maybe we need a reality check. We're badass mofo killers who want the bigger slice of the pie for ourselves and would do anything to achieve that. Correction, we want the WHOLE PIE. We as individuals, we as nations, we as cities, we as families, we as couples, we as threesomes, we as unions, we as aliances, we just want to rule the fucking universe.
Many elements in religion are actually there because of our very nature. If we as a species didn't have those elements of kick-ass² then we wouldn't exist.
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Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Lets not forget the chinese.
No. That's like saying would the world be better without war. If we had no wars between anything society would corrupt...damn it's a famous quote, but I kinda messed it up.
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
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RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive.
Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive.
Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
While a good point, alot of the stuff jesus supposedly stated were directly from his "father" , while he did speak alot of the OT, he basically...ahh hell I don't know anymore, this is why I'm a buddahist.
Who decides which should be used? Who decides which has more weight? The OT, or the NT?
What you're litterally saying is, throw out the Jewish religion, since it conflicts with the NT aka Christianity.
And your post is made moot due to the fact that what did Jesus talk about every time he said "It is written.... yadda yadda yadda..."
What book/books were he talking about? The New Testiment did not exist when Jesus was alive.
Jesus himself is proof that the OT is as valid to Christians today, just as much as the NT is valid to Christians today. It's intresting that many modern religious groups only distribute the NT, as if they are scared of what's in the OT. Well heck, Jesus himself quoted the OT numerous times, used the OT numersous times, AKA recignized the OT numerous times. Isn't it blasphemous to discount the OT, since to do so is to discount what Jesus used?
In Heb. 8:13 and I Cor 9:21 talks about a New Covenant and a New Law that people are under.I believe that the OT was created by God to prepare the people and help guide them to where they needed to be when Jesus comes. Jesus then supercedes the OT (while using it in his lessons) and is the new path that will prepare people for the third phase of God's plan. Now that is my opinion and I do not try to push or force it on anyone, but that is what I believe.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I'd say that when the soldiers may be going to battle, believing God to be on their side, the reasons for the battle itself are more often as not about political issues. This would appear to have been the case with many of the crusades at least. Much of what gets branded religious war is not over the ideological differences, but just because they are different tribes fighting over resources and land. Religion, in these circumstances, functions as a banner to rally behind (the ideology usually long gone) and also very useful for the leaders, if their troops gain courage from a belief in an afterlife..
Another point, in answer to Veraticus' last sentence; We cannot know what wars and horrors have been prevented because of the existance religion (neighbouring countires sharing religious ideals, religious philosophy influencing kings, etc), so we are in no position to judge whether there would have been more or less war without religion.
One other thing to bear in mind when discussing such things, is that we can't judge a philosophy by its abuse.
The crusades was about capturing Jerusalem from the muslims.The middle east has been faught over since people settled there. Communism was no better then catholosism in it's day. The only dif. between the two was that one demand you serve the dictator and the other commanded you serve the pope.
People just need to learn acceptance. Untill then religion is there for some individuals to justify thier hate of others.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
There is no athiest belief structure.
We just don't believe there are gods.
Communism isn't about being an athiest.
Wish Darkfall would release.
Just like the vast majority of Religous people never start wars. See the same is true about Christianity. I know I am a Christian and I have never waged war upon a Muslim or a Jewish person because they weren't Christian. It is completely ridiculous to blame religion for people's problems. That is like blaming video games for kids killing their classmates. Or blaming Rock music or D&D.
There is a difference, however. For instance, Christianity (a proper example as it is the majority religion of the US, where I am from), has in its writings: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Exodus 22:18. I think the people involved in the Salem Witch Trials took that bit of old testament knowledge to heart.
And for some new testament knowledge:
Romans 1:28-32 :
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Translation: Do wrong from this list and you deserve death.
The reasons for war and death are contained within Christianity, and many other religions as well.
That said, I realize that people don't always follow the Bible, and most don't, and for very good reason. It is an ancient book with mixed morals and bad teachings. The fact that we can "take the good" from it and leave the rest means that we, as a society, do not need such a thing. It should say something that people have to sort through the book of their religion to find what is acceptable and unacceptable in the first place.
- Mal
I am kind of happy that you brought up the Salem Witch Trials. That was totally not about Religion. It was about gaining Land. How do I know this? Because that is my family history. My family was the central figures in the Salem Witch Trials and the ones that gained a lot of land. Should I be judged because of what my Family did in the past? No of course not, just like Religion can't be judged totally on a few bad apples.
And GL Atheists did kill for their beliefs of being anti-religious. Stalin's government is a good example and it is more recent then religious wars.
Land disputes are only one of a dozen reasons for the Salem Witch Trials. Half a dozen of the reasons were religious in nature, and the remainder ranged from bored youths to people actually condemning themselves. ALL of the reasons were made possible by Biblical Stories that gave credence to magic, witches, and far out fairy tales that said, "Burn the witch!". And no, the point is not to blame you for past transgressions that your family performed, but instead to show that religion is fully equipped for violence, and has been for thousands of years.
As for Atheists being anti-religious... Definition of an Atheist: A lack of belief in god(s). What about that definition made Stalin kill people? What about that definition says, "Anti-Religious". That some Atheists adopt an anti-religious stance has nothing to do with Atheism. That some religions adopt an anti-other-religion stance is within some of their definitions: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", or even anti-non-religious stance, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good." Christians think I'm abominable... wonderful, I think I'm a bit anti-Christian in return.
- Mal
How Atheists decide to use their atheism is the same thing as how Religious people decide to use their religion. Neither belief structure specifically tells them to go out and commit war and murder, but Humans have a natural instinct to do so and will blame it on anything but themselves.
There is no athiest belief structure.
We just don't believe there are gods.
Communism isn't about being an athiest.
Lol saying there is no belief structure is like saying there is no gravity. Of course there is a belief structure, atheism just happens to be pretty simple in their belief that there is no God. That is pretty much it. And I am not saying that Communism is about being Atheist. Stalin thought of himself as an Atheist though. So if we as Religious people have to take credit for the crusades and such, then Atheism needs to take credit for what Atheists have done.I will say it again, Religion is no different from the rifle or sword in a soldier's hand. It is a tool used, not a cause.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
I will say it again, Religion is no different from the rifle or sword in a soldier's hand. It is a tool used, not a cause.
Don't agree.
Atheism is not on the same level as Religion.
Religion is an organised comunity ruled by weird ancient books, which has God (or Gods) at the centre of it.
Atheism is not a comunity, it is just a word to indicate someone who don't believe in God.
Maybe in America there are convention of Atheists, but that's America, where you got convention for nose picking techniques.
In the rest of the world Atheist are just people who don't believe in God with no will whatsoever to discuss anything religious.
Majority don't even know that they are Atheists.
People are born Atheist, and become Religious.
Religion is an add-on to life, like having a car, or getting a job, or getting married.
Atheism is not a way of life, Religion is.
I guess if you believe in a god then you can't really understand when I say that if there is no god then there is nothing for me to believe or disbelieve in because it's a state of personal understanding, and as such isn't structured.
As an athiest I can tell you that there is no belief structure. There is no belief.
Religion is structured to follow specific events and beliefs that pertain to your religion. Athiests don't have that. Hence, it's not a belief system.
Being an athiest doesn't connect me to other athiests like religion does. I have no more of a connnection with another athiest then you would have with someone else that thinks peaches taste good.
Christians can draw upon thier belief system to make personall connections to others with the same belief. Religion can draw entire groups of people together simply by thier belief. Athiests don't exist within that same kind of social network as people of a particular religion, sex, or ethnicity.
Stalin was a COMMUNIST. His actions were driven by his political belief, not his being an athiest. Same goes for Karl Marx.
It's not clear to some because people tend to have this kind of twisted sence that being athiest is someones religious belief.
Wish Darkfall would release.