Originally posted by Jetrpg Originally posted by M1sf1t
Originally posted by Sothage While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons.I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen.As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions.On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few. Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline.As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2. Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot. The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death. Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death. You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history. So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature. Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals. Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts". This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
I have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas. The fact was is the russians did not fight the germans with their army becuase it was destroyed, instead they through its civilains at the german lines. in these city battles everyone fought their was no civilian russian.
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change.
Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units.
Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death.
If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship.
Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?
I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons. I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen. As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions. On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few.
Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline. As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2.
Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot.
The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death.
Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death.
You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history.
So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature.
Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals.
Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts".
This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
I have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas. The fact was is the russians did not fight the germans with their army becuase it was destroyed, instead they through its civilains at the german lines. in these city battles everyone fought their was no civilian russian.
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change.
Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units.
Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death.
If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship.
Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
I love reading about sexism is survival situations.
Originally posted by Sothage While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?
I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons.
I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen.
As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions.
On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few. Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline.
As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2. Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot. The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death. Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death. You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history. So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature. Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals. Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts". This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
Both the nations you state that use female or have used female soldiers were on the the brink of being destroyed. In the 2nd world war the Germans had the best army in the world this is not disputable it is a fact they had no female soldiers. Germany was within sight of Moscow the Russian capital before the winter started, if it hadn't been for the weather or the USA joining the war the Russians would have been defeated. Due to the harsh drops in temperature the petrol that German panzers used froze and left them immobile, the Russians used diesel which didn't freeze as easily. Now the Russians had to throw their entire population at the Germans to push them back, and even then estimations are that Russian casualties by the end of the war numbered around 30 million. So you see they had to use female snipers, soldiers ect because they were running out of men.
Israel was and in some cases is in a worse situation than Russia, they are compketely surrounded by Islamic nations that want to kill them down the last child. Israel has even fought 4 or 5 Arab nations simultaneously and won, they have a very small population and without female soldiers they wouldn't have the numbers to fight on the fronts they have to. You say women serve as combatants in MANY 1st world nations, so far you have only mentioned 2 of which 1 no longer uses female soldiers.
Men have proven through our entire history to be superior soldiers and this cannot be disputed, why?... because it is fact. Now If Mythic want to have gender specific classes why get uptight about it. Sure the chosen and marauder may turn out to be male only but i'm sure the Darke Elves will have female only classes such as witch elves.
Women serve in 16 nations in NATO do you want me to list them for you? Women also still serve in the Israel Armed forces and Russian Armies along with the Chinese Armed forces, Vietnamese Armed forces, etc.. The circumstances of which women served in the Russian Army during WW2 and during the majority of the wars fought by Israel does not detract at all from their service. It just further illustrates that when push comes to shove women can pick up the slack. It is not at all a negative point to show that women served in the most darkest of hours for those nations and in fact further bolsters my argument.
Also The reason why women did not serve in the German armed forces has more to do with tradition and German culture then their inability for them to fight and serve in combat units. Hitler and the NAZI party were not exactly beacons of truth and equality and neither did they strive to uphold such creeds.
Second by the time the Germans had reached the outskirts of Moscow they were over extended and under supplied. They had already split their initial invasion forces ( on Hitlers orders ) into much smaller armies to cover 3 huge fronts in Russia which was fool hardy to say the least. Now throw in the effects of the Russian winter weather, badly equipped German military units who did not have the simplest of cold weather military gear and you have a recipe for disaster.
On top of this the Russians were hoarding their best units, and supplies for the battle for Moscow. They were also eagerly using the aid sent by the US to build up additional military units and improve their industrial complex to support the war effort. A industrial complex which for the most part was not even diminished one bit by the Germans as they could not reach into the Ural mountains to attack the huge and sprawling mass of Russian factories with their bombers.
Now coupled with the constant meddling of Hitler in the decision making process of the German army and it was clear that the German forces were doomed once they reached the outskirts of Moscow. Anyone with a clue and who has read more then several books on the topic will inform you that most German generals at the time who weren't NAZI party lackies were all in consensus in viewing the war in the East as a huge mistake.
In fact when Germans faced off against properly equipped and well trained Russian units they would more often then not meet their match in battle. While the German army did have an advantage in some areas it was not the juggernaut that most people who are not schooled in the history of WW2 thought it to be. More often then not when the German forces meet a foe that was ready and trained to meet them head on their ridged doctrines and concepts on war and constant meddling of Hitler himself would hinder them if not completely undermined their war effort. Lets also not for get that the Russians also ended up fielding some of the best tanks of the war.
The T-34/T-34-85 which was introduced in mass in 1940 was consider to be the best tank of the war at the time. Sure the German Panther and Tiger tanks were deadlier but they were never produced in enough numbers to over come the sheer volume of T-34's fielded by the Russians. Let's not also forget the Russian Mig-3's who were on the same level playing field as the German 109's. Or better yet the Yak-3's that more then match and in most cases surpassed the German 109's.
Third we are dealing with a fantasy world game. What you consider to be facts in the real world are irrelevant. Not to mention that the lore in Warhammer has many examples of female Chosen and female units...ie -> see Dark Elves. Also Mythic was able to use and create female Priests of Sigmar, and Knights of the Blazing Sun. So your point is mute and totally irrelevant. The truth of the matter is that this was based on the inability of Mythic to properly conceptualize a female Chosen and not have the guys in marketing throw a fit.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Okay Im seeing alot of "men are superior soldiers" and women are too hart felt for frontline combat. And im seeing 16 nations that women serve in armed forces... First i want you to list 16 first world nations that women fight frontline as riflemen ill send you my paycheck if you can list them.. second women fighting front line has nothing to do with superiority, my time in the USMC i have seen some women that can out shoot a man any day of the week and being a martial arts instructor i know alot of women that would drop even the badest of men. Now in an overall perspective sure maybe men are physically stronger and blah blah blah. But the real reason women dont stand front lines is the males natural instinct to protect women. A woman attached to an infantry unit would decrease its efficiency dramatically simply because the men in the unit would go out of their way to protect the women. And the military just wont intentionally put a woman in harms way because of this. Now there have been women that had to pick up a rifle and kick some A$$ but that is because the support unit they were attached to came under fire and they had no choice. I personally wouldnt have the stomach to sit frontline and watch a woman get blown to bits it would piss me off to the point were i would tear the enemies throat out with my teeth, and that is the factor todays 1st world militaries are trying to aviod. Perfect example is that movie i cant remember the name of where Demi Moore becomes a Navy Seal, and she is sitting behind those oil drums when that big burly brute with a big arse gun is bearing down on her. She tells the unit commander she can handle it pulls her knife out ready to use her expert training and skills to make a swift silent kill. But the protect my women instinct kicks in and the commander takes the fact that she is in mortal danger and risks the entire units safety by taking the shot. That there is the main reason women dont stand front lines, im sure people will post that was a movie blah blah blah, that particular part of the movie is actually the backbone of the many reasons why solid 1st world countries dont put women in frontline situations. We can argue about the middle east and wars that came and gone before anyone here was even thought of but the few times women did fight was basically there were no more options they were placed there because it was sink or swim time, everyone fights now or our entire country dies kinda situations. But todays US military is beginning to change things slowly, we have no female combatants still but we are beginning to filter in female combat pilots, so who is to say things wont change in the future but right now and in the past the reasons stated above is what kept women out of combat, im sure there are more but the ones i have stated are the main reasons our goverments dont place women in harms way. That being said lets get back to the issue at hand we are talking about a video game, that has a few classes that are male only but looke at what we are argueing about, the male only spots are based on norsemen now looking back on their history women did not fight with men on raiding parties or even on the battlefield that only happens in movies. In the norse history women only fought when they were directly fighting for their homes as in their village was being attacked and so forth, it was a male dominant society and women just were not trained in the arts of combat along side men, hence that is probably why they just arent allowed for thos few classes. But really no one but the devs know exactly why they only allow males to be the classes but my guess is they are trying to be somewhat true to the history of that particular society. Now i expect some flames about my spelling, and im sure there will be some rants about my statements but they are true and real. The attitude of "My little girl is not going to pick up a rifle and charge an enemy encampment, thats what my son is for", historically and presently is what keeps women from frontline combat. Now let the flaming begin.
Eh...for whatever reason, developers didn't feel like making female models for some of the race/class combos..... it's their game, their perogative and its doubtful they'll lose more than a handful of subscribers from this decision.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My only comment will be that I want to know how many commenters are actually women, and how many are men who are taking up the percieved womens cause?
Are you trying to be obtuse in your crusade for womens rights and confusing the issue of a GAME with the battleground that is equality?
I put it to you that things that are done in a game have no basis in reality, and you can argue all you like about how whatever paradigm in whatever medium is presented is a mirror of daily life and it MUST BE corrected, but everyone needs to get off thier soapboxes and do something in your daily life that helps your cause. This isn't one of them, nothing to see here, dead topic, move on, the topic is sexism in warhammer(a game) not 'sexism in the military' and 'sexism in biology'WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
We all know your for womens rights and making things equal, we get it, any sane person agree's with you, so quit it, focus on the context of a game, and playing a game, and all the inequalities in the game in the context of the game. Things like balance between careers and items, and how fun the game will be should be on your minds, not what gender your axe is cuz its sentient, oh my god, its not a female axe, its a male axe thats sexist...the electrons made into planets this argument has become.
So, what does everyone think about the fact that Chaos Chosen and possibly Chaos Marauder to be male only? Many people are apparently justifying this by saying that Mythic went out of their way to allow female dwarves, espeically warrior priests. Do you think that it is right or fair in an mmo to limit who can be female or male especially with classes that can only be male without having classes that can only be female? edit: I am not part of or affiliated with anyone in WAR beta.
Well, in the lore Chaos Chosen and Marauders are norsemen, following the chaos gods.
in the fluff there are actually, what i'd guess to be a few female chaos chosen warriors but you'd hardly notice any difference between the sexes in all that chaos armor and all the ornaments.
The norsemen didnt bring their women out in battle so, that might be why there are no female marauders.
In the end, its all up to Games workshop, if you dont like their lore, don't play the game - and stop being such whiners ^^
Originally posted by abakke Originally posted by Chaia So, what does everyone think about the fact that Chaos Chosen and possibly Chaos Marauder to be male only? Many people are apparently justifying this by saying that Mythic went out of their way to allow female dwarves, espeically warrior priests. Do you think that it is right or fair in an mmo to limit who can be female or male especially with classes that can only be male without having classes that can only be female? edit: I am not part of or affiliated with anyone in WAR beta.
Well, in the lore Chaos Chosen and Marauders are norsemen, following the chaos gods. in the fluff there are actually, what i'd guess to be a few female chaos chosen warriors but you'd hardly notice any difference between the sexes in all that chaos armor and all the ornaments. The norsemen didnt bring their women out in battle so, that might be why there are no female marauders.
In the end, its all up to Games workshop, if you dont like their lore, don't play the game - and stop being such whiners ^^
Chosen are not strictly Norsemen. The Hordes of Chaos are comprised of many tribes such as the Kurgans, Hungs, and Tungs. They also include defectors of the Empire some of whom have become Chosen of their respect Chaos gods and some follow the Chaos United theme and they worship all Chaos gods equally.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by Calamon My only comment will be that I want to know how many commenters are actually women, and how many are men who are taking up the percieved womens cause?
Are you trying to be obtuse in your crusade for womens rights and confusing the issue of a GAME with the battleground that is equality?
I put it to you that things that are done in a game have no basis in reality, and you can argue all you like about how whatever paradigm in whatever medium is presented is a mirror of daily life and it MUST BE corrected, but everyone needs to get off thier soapboxes and do something in your daily life that helps your cause. This isn't one of them, nothing to see here, dead topic, move on, the topic is sexism in warhammer(a game) not 'sexism in the military' and 'sexism in biology'WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
We all know your for womens rights and making things equal, we get it, any sane person agree's with you, so quit it, focus on the context of a game, and playing a game, and all the inequalities in the game in the context of the game. Things like balance between careers and items, and how fun the game will be should be on your minds, not what gender your axe is cuz its sentient, oh my god, its not a female axe, its a male axe thats sexist...the electrons made into planets this argument has become.
So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
I don't see why a female looking Chosen is necessary. You can't see any remnants of humanity in the concept art anyway. Chosen are completely encased in magical Chaos armor. Sure they look masculine, but who's to say what lies beneath? Or do people just want a Chosen with boobs? That seems a little superfluous to me.
If they were female only instead, I wouldn't be upset. I'd still play one. GW lore has plenty of instances of gender specific classes/troops. Sisters of Sigmar from Mordheim comes to mind. I think if they decide the Chosen should only be rendered in masculine armor, they're free to do so. I don't think it involves any sort of sexism on GW's or Mythic's part.
Does it really matter? Unless your trying to hook up through the game but in that case how do you know what sex the other player is. To me I treat everyone as asexual. I have played with a lot of female gamers (my fiance whom is one) and alot of real life friends who play male toons. Seems to me its mostly the men who complain about not being a female. I know back in EQ my cleric was female because you would get better tips.
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change. Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units. Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death. If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship. Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
I have to admit that i did simply the issue but still i fail to see how anything i said was wrong. In fact if anything you support my claim, yet somehow draw the conclusion that i am wrong.
The fact was that the Russian army WAS all but destroyed READ a history book nubz. Stalin formed another and then held it back forever letting his civilians and remniet forces fight then he sent a massive wave. (he did send support/reinforcements but they where very sad).
"the reason why their were so many female on front lines often was they were shipped their for support and skilled fighter (air force and tank/vehicle) or they had lived in surrounding areas." I said this well your statements back this up.
Your statement " there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death."
This is not a female in the army on the front line this is a civilian population all being combatants and don't fool yourself there is a difference. See its not really a job or profession, nor something one or someone else chooses. This is supports my claim, and is not an example of female soldiers Combatants .. yes.
"The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change." -Wrong Stalin had no generals , he had killed almost all of them before the war, this was the real issues with the poor battlefield commanding (ie they basically had no military experienced leaders all around).
Of course you never know when your talking to a historian that doesn't want ask like a jack-off until someone comes up saying a ton of shit, tho you seem to have many of the facts right ... so why was my post BS?
Furthermore, I didn't say this also , what does modern warfare have to do with mid evil, when it comes to skill sets. Leadership (a bit), maybe courage, reaction time (somewhat good), But there is a giant divide in what made a warrior then and now. Then its GREATLY about strength. Professional soldiers were "effing" strong, with forearms like bodybuilders. there were bow also (depending on the time period) But don't fool yourself bows, pilum, etc take strength, Falaricas, Assegais, (not sure about chakram i don't know if we even know much about them i guess ill have to read up).
When com paired to men how much upper body strength do women have? Because your wear mail or plate, wielding a sword/shield, or heavy range weapon you have to string or throw, ps its around 50-60%. This here is enough to end this thread. The reason why females do not wield giant swords and heavy armor , is because in comparison to men they fall greatly behind. (OMG i did it i said the truth but its totally not PC Al Gore will burn me in hell).
What do women do great at (above men) - Smell (no joke), They see panoramic better (possible great scouts and watch"women"), flexibility, balance Hand eye coordination is still up in the air (atm it seems to lean to male having more and females having better fine motor skills.. Ie something to do with the spatial aspect of what men do with the movements).
Lets not go into the medical difference of which sexes body takes more damage (take a look t the bone structure).
As for the entire modern day armys... Women can be in them because the reaction time difference is very small, so is the hand-eye coordination And sometimes you have a heavy pack , but not always (its no great sword and plate, or 154 lb longbow). Really training is all that is needed because the tech does most of the work for you.
This once again is simplified why, because i have to go to work rofl. But that being said there is a reason why males were the soldiers is obvious and todays continuation of this may be a simple throw back of a logical reason.
PS- i have to note there are slight few female groups/armys of the past and in most of them armor was leather if not cloth, and the weapons were light. This does not mean they could not kill one of these was the most feared group/force of its area, but put up against armor clad, shield and longbow armys they would be out gunned.
-edit Russian active army was all but destroyed by the germans. This doesn't mean you can't call up more tho.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This is silly... was gona post a long post... but it can all be summed up in....
GW owns the world they made... If you want to change the whole real life injustice against women start at your workplace and not my refuge from earlier mentioned real life.
I believe that the subject of this thread has been totally lost. All I see for the last few pages is talk about women in the armed forces/equality for women in the real world.
That's all well and good. But can anyone tell me what real life women in today's world have to do with a fictional game, based in a fictional world, with real rules & lore that support the fact that I can count the number of female Chosen listed in the books on one hand?
I know you guys have got into a whole other subject, but I would like to reiterate the fact that female Chosen are not common in Warhammer & they should not be common in a game based on Warhammer.
Period.
End of story.
Thank you, come again.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change. Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units. Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death. If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship. Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
I have to admit that i did simply the issue but still i fail to see how anything i said was wrong. In fact if anything you support my claim, yet somehow draw the conclusion that i am wrong. The fact was that the Russian army WAS all but destroyed READ a history book nubz. Stalin formed another and then held it back forever letting his civilians and remniet forces fight then he sent a massive wave. (he did send support/reinforcements but they where very sad). "the reason why their were so many female on front lines often was they were shipped their for support and skilled fighter (air force and tank/vehicle) or they had lived in surrounding areas." I said this well your statements back this up. Your statement " there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death." This is not a female in the army on the front line this is a civilian population all being combatants and don't fool yourself there is a difference. See its not really a job or profession, nor something one or someone else chooses. This is supports my claim, and is not an example of female soldiers Combatants .. yes.
"The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change." -Wrong Stalin had no generals , he had killed almost all of them before the war, this was the real issues with the poor battlefield commanding (ie they basically had no military experienced leaders all around). Of course you never know when your talking to a historian that doesn't want ask like a jack-off until someone comes up saying a ton of shit, tho you seem to have many of the facts right ... so why was my post BS? Furthermore, I didn't say this also , what does modern warfare have to do with mid evil, when it comes to skill sets. Leadership (a bit), maybe courage, reaction time (somewhat good), But there is a giant divide in what made a warrior then and now. Then its GREATLY about strength. Professional soldiers were "effing" strong, with forearms like bodybuilders. there were bow also (depending on the time period) But don't fool yourself bows, pilum, etc take strength, Falaricas, Assegais, (not sure about chakram i don't know if we even know much about them i guess ill have to read up). When com paired to men how much upper body strength do women have? Because your wear mail or plate, wielding a sword/shield, or heavy range weapon you have to string or throw, ps its around 50-60%. This here is enough to end this thread. The reason why females do not wield giant swords and heavy armor , is because in comparison to men they fall greatly behind. (OMG i did it i said the truth but its totally not PC Al Gore will burn me in hell).
What do women do great at (above men) - Smell (no joke), They see panoramic better (possible great scouts and watch"women"), flexibility, balance Hand eye coordination is still up in the air (atm it seems to lean to male having more and females having better fine motor skills.. Ie something to do with the spatial aspect of what men do with the movements). Lets not go into the medical difference of which sexes body takes more damage (take a look t the bone structure).
As for the entire modern day armys... Women can be in them because the reaction time difference is very small, so is the hand-eye coordination And sometimes you have a heavy pack , but not always (its no great sword and plate, or 154 lb longbow). Really training is all that is needed because the tech does most of the work for you.
This once again is simplified why, because i have to go to work rofl. But that being said there is a reason why males were the soldiers is obvious and todays continuation of this may be a simple throw back of a logical reason. PS- i have to note there are slight few female groups/armys of the past and in most of them armor was leather if not cloth, and the weapons were light. This does not mean they could not kill one of these was the most feared group/force of its area, but put up against armor clad, shield and longbow armys they would be out gunned. -edit Russian active army was all but destroyed by the germans. This doesn't mean you can't call up more tho.
I dont know what type of trash history books youve been reading but while the Russian army was hurled backward they where not wiped out. There were in fact many pockets of resistance and many units that survived the initial German assault into Russia. Sure many were beaten and banged up but the Germans did not have the forces needed to totally wipe out the Russian Army. In fact the further they extended themselves into Russia the further they stretched out their supply lines and they had more and more ground to protect from the Russians. It also seems like you dont even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow.
It seems obvious to me know that you most of gotten your knowledge from cheap Hollywood WW2 movies or video games. It also seems like you have no clue as to the nature of the Great Purge that Stalin inflicted onto his army. Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands.
It was also men like Zhukov who advised Stalin to the fact that he should hand over the reigns of power of the army to his generals because he was obviously endangering Russia and himself if he continued to meddle into the affairs of the Army. This is also why organizations such as the Stakva were created to further bolster and remove any incompetent Russian generals, commanders and officers along with policing the Russian army and ensuring its loyalty to Stalin. Unlike Hitler it was Stalin who learned from his mistakes and stepped away from interfering in the tactical and strategic areas of planning in the Russian army. This literally changed the nature of the war in a matter of months as no longer was the Russian Army shackled to the whims of Stalins decisions on the battlefield.
Also there is more then enough evidence to point to the roles of women in the Russian Army during WW2. Roles which were more then just civilians forced to fight as you so ignorantly seem to suggest. The Russian Army during WW2 was over 12 million strong and it was comprised of both men and women. The Russian army was noted as one of the largest armies to ever of fielded women in combat front line roles. Now I really hate doing the homework for stupid, lazy and ignorant people who based their knowledge off inaccurate but popular information but here it goes.
Women played a large part in most of the armed forces of the Second World War. In most countries though, women tended to serve mostly in administrative, medical and in auxiliary roles. But in the Soviet Union women fought in larger numbers in front line roles. Over 800,000 women served their Motherland in World War II, nearly 200,000 of them decorated and 89 of those women eventually received the Soviet Unions highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. They served as pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles. [1] Very few of these women, however, were ever promoted to officers.
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so dont think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Originally posted by mcharj11 Originally posted by M1sf1t
Originally posted by mcharj11 Originally posted by M1sf1t
Originally posted by Sothage While we are at it, lets ask why women aren't allowed in special forces?
I mean seriously. There are some things chicks don't fit the bill for, just as there are some things guys don't fit the bill for. Girls have more creative minds. Men have a more intuitive mental system. When women don't have a superior mental capacity they resort to natural proclivities to get ahead. Men are the same way. These proclivities are different among both sexes and between cultures for genetic and psychological reasons. I'm not saying that males/females don't work for a certain roll always, but it's an all or nothing thing. They can't say, hey only x% of chaos chosen can be female, that would be ridiculous. No, it's all or nothing and in this case they have decided that no females for classes xyz is better than having 40% female Chaos Chosen. As far as I'm concerned (not being a WarOphile) Chaos seems as it should be non-sexual, totally reliant upon converts. And their converts are supposed to be fighters and nothing more. Warriors to their god, strategists. When people think about war, they don't think about men and women side to side facing down men and women in finite combat. Most of us picture men, and only men, going at it. Hence the fact that women in the military are not allowed in any front-line positions. On a generalized basis, One type of people are more emotionally bare, and try to be practical and objective (at least that's how I was brought up a man should be). The other type tends to be more emotional (via experience) and think more with their hearts. And there's a time and place for both types of people but I'm pretty sure Chaos Recruiters aren't looking for heart-thinkers for their combatants. Medic's sure. But not the Chosen few. Take my words as you will. Should you take them as sexist and/or anti-women, maybe you should re-evaluate yourself. All I'm saying is that this is the way that it NORMALLY flows. All Mythic is doing is letting it flow normally without causing too much erosion in the storyline. As for the people citing author's stories. That's one or a couple people's creation unassociated with the actual license-holders. You own the brand, you call the shots. That's what it boils down to. Everyone in the world can write that in Lord of the Rings, elves were really evil and ended up betraying the dwarves, but I'm fairly sure that LOTRO wouldn't fold to that pressure, pre-release or otherwise.
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2. Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot. The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death. Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death. You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history. So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature. Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals. Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts". This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
Both the nations you state that use female or have used female soldiers were on the the brink of being destroyed. In the 2nd world war the Germans had the best army in the world this is not disputable it is a fact they had no female soldiers. Germany was within sight of Moscow the Russian capital before the winter started, if it hadn't been for the weather or the USA joining the war the Russians would have been defeated. Due to the harsh drops in temperature the petrol that German panzers used froze and left them immobile, the Russians used diesel which didn't freeze as easily. Now the Russians had to throw their entire population at the Germans to push them back, and even then estimations are that Russian casualties by the end of the war numbered around 30 million. So you see they had to use female snipers, soldiers ect because they were running out of men.
Israel was and in some cases is in a worse situation than Russia, they are compketely surrounded by Islamic nations that want to kill them down the last child. Israel has even fought 4 or 5 Arab nations simultaneously and won, they have a very small population and without female soldiers they wouldn't have the numbers to fight on the fronts they have to. You say women serve as combatants in MANY 1st world nations, so far you have only mentioned 2 of which 1 no longer uses female soldiers.
Men have proven through our entire history to be superior soldiers and this cannot be disputed, why?... because it is fact. Now If Mythic want to have gender specific classes why get uptight about it. Sure the chosen and marauder may turn out to be male only but i'm sure the Darke Elves will have female only classes such as witch elves.
Women serve in 16 nations in NATO do you want me to list them for you? Women also still serve in the Israel Armed forces and Russian Armies along with the Chinese Armed forces, Vietnamese Armed forces, etc.. The circumstances of which women served in the Russian Army during WW2 and during the majority of the wars fought by Israel does not detract at all from their service. It just further illustrates that when push comes to shove women can pick up the slack. It is not at all a negative point to show that women served in the most darkest of hours for those nations and in fact further bolsters my argument.
Also The reason why women did not serve in the German armed forces has more to do with tradition and German culture then their inability for them to fight and serve in combat units. Hitler and the NAZI party were not exactly beacons of truth and equality and neither did they strive to uphold such creeds.
Second by the time the Germans had reached the outskirts of Moscow they were over extended and under supplied. They had already split their initial invasion forces ( on Hitlers orders ) into much smaller armies to cover 3 huge fronts in Russia which was fool hardy to say the least. Now throw in the effects of the Russian winter weather, badly equipped German military units who did not have the simplest of cold weather military gear and you have a recipe for disaster. On top of this the Russians were hoarding their best units, and supplies for the battle for Moscow. They were also eagerly using the aid sent by the US to build up additional military units and improve their industrial complex to support the war effort. A industrial complex which for the most part was not even diminished one bit by the Germans as they could not reach into the Ural mountains to attack the huge and sprawling mass of Russian factories with their bombers. Now coupled with the constant meddling of Hitler in the decision making process of the German army and it was clear that the German forces were doomed once they reached the outskirts of Moscow. Anyone with a clue and who has read more then several books on the topic will inform you that most German generals at the time who weren't NAZI party lackies were all in consensus in viewing the war in the East as a huge mistake. In fact when Germans faced off against properly equipped and well trained Russian units they would more often then not meet their match in battle. While the German army did have an advantage in some areas it was not the juggernaut that most people who are not schooled in the history of WW2 thought it to be. More often then not when the German forces meet a foe that was ready and trained to meet them head on their ridged doctrines and concepts on war and constant meddling of Hitler himself would hinder them if not completely undermined their war effort. Lets also not for get that the Russians also ended up fielding some of the best tanks of the war. The T-34/T-34-85 which was introduced in mass in 1940 was consider to be the best tank of the war at the time. Sure the German Panther and Tiger tanks were deadlier but they were never produced in enough numbers to over come the sheer volume of T-34's fielded by the Russians. Let's not also forget the Russian Mig-3's who were on the same level playing field as the German 109's. Or better yet the Yak-3's that more then match and in most cases surpassed the German 109's. Third we are dealing with a fantasy world game. What you consider to be facts in the real world are irrelevant. Not to mention that the lore in Warhammer has many examples of female Chosen and female units...ie -> see Dark Elves. Also Mythic was able to use and create female Priests of Sigmar, and Knights of the Blazing Sun. So your point is mute and totally irrelevant. The truth of the matter is that this was based on the inability of Mythic to properly conceptualize a female Chosen and not have the guys in marketing throw a fit.
What the Nazi's did to the Jew's was unforgiveable but because they were evil tpwards one type of people does not mean they were like that with everything. Hitler wanted better living for all Germans that is why he invaded surrounding countries, for living space for his people to expand into. Most Germans had a very good living under the Nazi party, the whole basis of what Hitler was doing he believd benfitted his people.
Yes I agree the standard of living for your average German was considered to be high at the time. Yet the NAZI viewed women as inferiors. The NAZIs also had a strong imbedded belief in the family unit and that a woman's sole focus in life was to be a part of the family. They opposed the view that women should empower themselves and were totally against the womens rights movement.
Now it's all very well discussing modern armies and belief's but Warhammer is set in the Tolkien style fantasy, which is based around ancient pre-dark ages upto renaissance Europe.
In these days in that area women did not fight in war's ect and there were no rights for people, you had a lord and you did what he told you to do. This wasn't the time where you could use aircraft and vehicles to transport troops, you had to march for miles and miles and miles or even sail for months. Women just are not built for that, Rome had a democracy with rights ect (before the catholic church) and women were not allowed to serve in their legions and guess what they had the best armies of their time. .
You speak about women serving in wars where the main weapon is the gun, now you do not have to waste energy waving the gun around at someone trying to find a weakness in their armour ect. In warhammer you have massive armour and massive weapons which i bet weigh alot, women aren't made for that type of combat.
Now find me info about a pre-dark ages army or renaissance army that used sizeable numbers of female soldiers and then i'll admit defeat on this matter and accept that female chosen and marauders should be playable.
See now you are just confusing reality with fantasy. Not to mention that you are also somehow confuse Warhammer with Tolkiens world. While Warhammer may have been influenced by Tolkien-esque themes to a small degree it does not bare any resemblance to it all besides the races used in the game.
Second this Warhammer takes place in a renaissance styled period and not a dark age styled period. Not to mention that the Empire and Dwarfs also fields many units that use guns and canons. There also are plenty of examples of females fighting in the Warhammer. The Sisters of the Sigmar are a good example. As well as the forces of Chaos who have had female Chosen ( especially Slannesh ) as well as other units such as casters. The Dark elves themselves also field tons of female characters in their core army units.
I don’t know what type of trash history books you’ve been reading but while the Russian army was hurled backward they where not wiped out. There were in fact many pockets of resistance and many units that survived the initial German assault into Russia. Sure many were beaten and banged up but the Germans did not have the forces needed to totally wipe out the Russian Army. In fact the further they extended themselves into Russia the further they stretched out their supply lines and they had more and more ground to protect from the Russians. It also seems like you don’t even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow. It seems obvious to me know that you most of gotten your knowledge from cheap Hollywood WW2 movies or video games. It also seems like you have no clue as to the nature of the “Great Purge” that Stalin inflicted onto his army. Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands. It was also men like Zhukov who advised Stalin to the fact that he should hand over the reigns of power of the army to his generals because he was obviously endangering Russia and himself if he continued to meddle into the affairs of the Army. This is also why organizations such as the Stakva were created to further bolster and remove any incompetent Russian generals, commanders and officers along with policing the Russian army and ensuring it’s loyalty to Stalin. Unlike Hitler it was Stalin who learned from his mistakes and stepped away from interfering in the tactical and strategic areas of planning in the Russian army. This literally changed the nature of the war in a matter of months as no longer was the Russian Army shackled to the whims of Stalin’s decisions on the battlefield. Also there is more then enough evidence to point to the roles of women in the Russian Army during WW2. Roles which were more then just civilians forced to fight as you so ignorantly seem to suggest. The Russian Army during WW2 was over 12 million strong and it was comprised of both men and women. The Russian army was noted as one of the largest armies to ever of fielded women in combat front line roles. Now I really hate doing the homework for stupid, lazy and ignorant people who based their knowledge off inaccurate but popular information but here it goes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Russian_and_Soviet_military#World_War_II
Women played a large part in most of the armed forces of the Second World War. In most countries though, women tended to serve mostly in administrative, medical and in auxiliary roles. But in the Soviet Union women fought in larger numbers in front line roles. Over 800,000 women served their Motherland in World War II, nearly 200,000 of them decorated and 89 of those women eventually received the Soviet Union’s highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. They served as pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles. [1] Very few of these women, however, were ever promoted to officers.
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so don’t think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Once again you simply can't graps what i am saying so ill make it short (See as once again your claims are appels to oranges, as i agree with you can you have not said anythign counter to what i have said really, you simply agree then you somehow conclude i am wrong and disagree.)
I never said females were not in the russina army, however instead, look at what possitions they held.
Instead of mouthing off , this will paint a different picture than you present.
Tip - REAd the freaking resources you use.
"While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty."
You must be thinking, "Oh Nosss what did i link" (this is part of reference one that wiki uses (the only resource it uses), Women and the Soviet Military by Mary Louise O'Brien and Lt. Col. Chris Jefferies, USAF , Air university review. Jan-feb. 1982 .)
Basiclly, I KNOW WHAT THE HECK I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Now that we see that the women in the russian armed forces during WW2 (not the civilains) were vastly in support roles [ mechinizard warfare a far distant second, sniping a even further third]. So now can you stop saying otherwise.
Furthermore, you totally ignore that chosen do not use guns or tanks, they have plate and a giant sword which males WILL be better with, and this is my real point. I have to admit i could not stop myself from using your own reference to discredit you.
For a refresher this is what i said off the bat, "have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas."
You said i was wrong .. I wasn't, your own resource supports my claim.
"It also seems like you don’t even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow." Why even type this? this is an illogical argument because it came out of no where, we never even addressed the issue.
"Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands." -Uhh i am right can you can't concied it, so you list off a few people left. I agree that hitler shot his own foot , he had arguably some of the best generals in the world ... just had to listen to them more.
Ok next person mcharj11 , i never said females hand-eye coordiation is faster. I talked about males faster reaction times... however, who's hand-eye is more accurate? And i promiss you this one is not known.. there is research that says both both ways.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Originally posted by Jetrpg Originally posted by M1sf1t
I dont know what type of trash history books youve been reading but while the Russian army was hurled backward they where not wiped out. There were in fact many pockets of resistance and many units that survived the initial German assault into Russia. Sure many were beaten and banged up but the Germans did not have the forces needed to totally wipe out the Russian Army. In fact the further they extended themselves into Russia the further they stretched out their supply lines and they had more and more ground to protect from the Russians. It also seems like you dont even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow. It seems obvious to me know that you most of gotten your knowledge from cheap Hollywood WW2 movies or video games. It also seems like you have no clue as to the nature of the Great Purge that Stalin inflicted onto his army. Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands. It was also men like Zhukov who advised Stalin to the fact that he should hand over the reigns of power of the army to his generals because he was obviously endangering Russia and himself if he continued to meddle into the affairs of the Army. This is also why organizations such as the Stakva were created to further bolster and remove any incompetent Russian generals, commanders and officers along with policing the Russian army and ensuring its loyalty to Stalin. Unlike Hitler it was Stalin who learned from his mistakes and stepped away from interfering in the tactical and strategic areas of planning in the Russian army. This literally changed the nature of the war in a matter of months as no longer was the Russian Army shackled to the whims of Stalins decisions on the battlefield. Also there is more then enough evidence to point to the roles of women in the Russian Army during WW2. Roles which were more then just civilians forced to fight as you so ignorantly seem to suggest. The Russian Army during WW2 was over 12 million strong and it was comprised of both men and women. The Russian army was noted as one of the largest armies to ever of fielded women in combat front line roles. Now I really hate doing the homework for stupid, lazy and ignorant people who based their knowledge off inaccurate but popular information but here it goes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Russian_and_Soviet_military#World_War_II
Women played a large part in most of the armed forces of the Second World War. In most countries though, women tended to serve mostly in administrative, medical and in auxiliary roles. But in the Soviet Union women fought in larger numbers in front line roles. Over 800,000 women served their Motherland in World War II, nearly 200,000 of them decorated and 89 of those women eventually received the Soviet Unions highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. They served as pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles. [1] Very few of these women, however, were ever promoted to officers.
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so dont think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Once again you simply can't graps what i am saying so ill make it short (See as once again your claims are appels to oranges, as i agree with you can you have not said anythign counter to what i have said really, you simply agree then you somehow conclude i am wrong and disagree.)
I never said females were not in the russina army, however instead, look at what possitions they held. Instead of mouthing off , this will paint a different picture than you present. Tip - REAd the freaking resources you use. "While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty." You must be thinking, "Oh Nosss what did i link" (this is part of reference one that wiki uses (the only resource it uses), Women and the Soviet Military by Mary Louise O'Brien and Lt. Col. Chris Jefferies, USAF , Air university review. Jan-feb. 1982 .)
Basiclly, I KNOW WHAT THE HECK I AM TALKING ABOUT. Now that we see that the women in the russian armed forces during WW2 (not the civilains) were vastly in support roles [ mechinizard warfare a far distant second, sniping a even further third]. So now can you stop saying otherwise. Furthermore, you totally ignore that chosen do not use guns or tanks, they have plate and a giant sword which males WILL be better with, and this is my real point. I have to admit i could not stop myself from using your own reference to discredit you. For a refresher this is what i said off the bat, "have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas." You said i was wrong .. I wasn't, your own resource supports my claim.
"It also seems like you dont even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow." Why even type this? this is an illogical argument because it came out of no where, we never even addressed the issue. "Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands." -Uhh i am right can you can't concied it, so you list off a few people left. I agree that hitler shot his own foot , he had arguably some of the best generals in the world ... just had to listen to them more.
Ok next person mcharj11 , i never said females hand-eye coordiation is faster. I talked about males faster reaction times... however, who's hand-eye is more accurate? And i promiss you this one is not known.. there is research that says both both ways.
Your paltry quote does not detract from the fact that women did serve and they did fight in front line roles. That women in the Soviet Union also earned the highest awards given that were also given to men.
Yes great numbers of women served in the rear doing jobs that otherwise men would do in positions such as manufacturing industry but a good number did serve in Russian military. They served with honor and they served commendably. You whole premise has been up to so far that women could not and did not serve in front line roles which is false. Women did serve in front line positions as quoted from your own source which you selectively quote out of context.
The common historical perception of the woman in the Soviet Army is that of a heroic, highly motivated, well-disciplined, tenacious soldier fighting in defense of the Motherland. Growing out of the Soviet experience of World War II, in which more than 8 percent of the Soviet Unions mobilized troops were women,2 the image may reflect more the propaganda efforts of the Soviets than reality.
3 Nevertheless, the Soviet Union is one of the first contemporary societies to employ women extensively in its armed forces. Women served as women soldiers in World War I,4 fought in the Revolution, and even provided combat units during World War II, when three womens air regiments flew combat aircraft and 23 of their fliers were named Heroes of the Soviet Union.5 Women also served with ground combat units as snipers, machine gunners, and tank crew members.6 While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty.7
Ah see it appears they served in more then just "rear combat roles" using your own source.
Now next time you quote something make damn sure you put the previous relevant parts that proceeded your quote into it to put it into context. Unless of course you are debating with a agenda of your own making. If this is the case I can see why you left this out to promote your fallacy of a claim.
Women served in the Russian armed services which you acknowledge and they served in many areas including front line positions as quoted by your very own source parts of which you did not include. Now more then ever I seriously doubt that you even have a clue of what you are talking about and if anything you are arguing so as not to look as if you are wrong. Just deal with the fact that woman when given the chance can serve in modern day militaries and in front line positions as they did in the Soviet Union in WW2 when asked to do so.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
My only comment will be that I want to know how many commenters are actually women, and how many are men who are taking up the percieved womens cause?
Are you trying to be obtuse in your crusade for womens rights and confusing the issue of a GAME with the battleground that is equality?
I put it to you that things that are done in a game have no basis in reality, and you can argue all you like about how whatever paradigm in whatever medium is presented is a mirror of daily life and it MUST BE corrected, but everyone needs to get off thier soapboxes and do something in your daily life that helps your cause. This isn't one of them, nothing to see here, dead topic, move on, the topic is sexism in warhammer(a game) not 'sexism in the military' and 'sexism in biology'WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
We all know your for womens rights and making things equal, we get it, any sane person agree's with you, so quit it, focus on the context of a game, and playing a game, and all the inequalities in the game in the context of the game. Things like balance between careers and items, and how fun the game will be should be on your minds, not what gender your axe is cuz its sentient, oh my god, its not a female axe, its a male axe thats sexist...the electrons made into planets this argument has become.
So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
I see whut yu did thar!
Don't even go there, anyone still aruing this topic insofar as its some sexism issue, has lost any right to talk on this topic. It's a game, Games workshop is tha arbiters, You gave your opinion, many many many many many times, now its just nausiating. Like I said, we get it, you think its sexist, you think women should be whatever whereever whenever however whyever. it really isn't about that and you know it, your just being obtuse for no other reason than to keep the debate going, which is doing no good, and worsening whatever opinion you may have.
Tell me dis, if tzeench made a decree from the beggining that 'no females in my precious army, shooo, shooo, go play with some other toys' would you be aruing that a mystical creature was sexist and deserves a boycott in real life? considering a world of gods, and races over and above that one mythical/fantasy god? Are you aruing that russian women were goddesses on the field of battle because they were indeed there, just cuz you can't figure out in what preportion, so they should be a warrior under tzeench, and how darnit?
Originally posted by Calamon My only comment will be that I want to know how many commenters are actually women, and how many are men who are taking up the percieved womens cause?
Are you trying to be obtuse in your crusade for womens rights and confusing the issue of a GAME with the battleground that is equality?
I put it to you that things that are done in a game have no basis in reality, and you can argue all you like about how whatever paradigm in whatever medium is presented is a mirror of daily life and it MUST BE corrected, but everyone needs to get off thier soapboxes and do something in your daily life that helps your cause. This isn't one of them, nothing to see here, dead topic, move on, the topic is sexism in warhammer(a game) not 'sexism in the military' and 'sexism in biology'WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
We all know your for womens rights and making things equal, we get it, any sane person agree's with you, so quit it, focus on the context of a game, and playing a game, and all the inequalities in the game in the context of the game. Things like balance between careers and items, and how fun the game will be should be on your minds, not what gender your axe is cuz its sentient, oh my god, its not a female axe, its a male axe thats sexist...the electrons made into planets this argument has become.
So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
I see whut yu did thar!
Don't even go there, anyone still aruing this topic insofar as its some sexism issue, has lost any right to talk on this topic. It's a game, Games workshop is tha arbiters, You gave your opinion, many many many many many times, now its just nausiating. Like I said, we get it, you think its sexist, you think women should be whatever whereever whenever however whyever. it really isn't about that and you know it, your just being obtuse for no other reason than to keep the debate going, which is doing no good, and worsening whatever opinion you may have. Tell me dis, if tzeench made a decree from the beggining that 'no females in my precious army, shooo, shooo, go play with some other toys' would you be aruing that a mystical creature was sexist and deserves a boycott in real life? considering a world of gods, and races over and above that one mythical/fantasy god? Are you aruing that russian women were goddesses on the field of battle because they were indeed there, just cuz you can't figure out in what preportion, so they should be a warrior under tzeench, and how darnit?
If there was already lore in the game that said there were no female chosen it would be fine by me as it would be in line with lore. Oh and it was not Games Workshop who decided they were not going to do a female chosen. It was Mythic who decided it was not worth the trouble doing one because they couldn't get it right artistically.
The fact remains that female Chosen had more lore supporting them in the game then supporting the currently implemented female Priest of Sigmar or Knight of the Blazing Sun or other Dwarf careers.
Anyways....So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
[quote]Originally posted by mcharj11 Misfit i did not confuse Warhammer with Tolkien i was saying that Warahmmer is greatly influenced by Tolkien. I never said either that Wrahmmer was soley based on dark age fantasy, i said it was both dark age and renaissance. the fact is though that female chosen just are not very abundant so i doesn't make sense to have thousands of them running around in the game. All the lore masters here have stated that female chosen are very few and far between. Seriously does it really matter if you have female chosen in game or not?
Really so tell me how many priest of Sigmar that are female have you seen on the table top or read about in lore? Or what about female Knight's of the Blazing Sun, or female dwarf Ironbreakers?
The fact remains that there are a ton more examples of Chaos female chosen in lore then there are in both Empire and Dwarf careers that I listed. The non-inclusion of a Chaos female chosen is just plain sad and absurd when you understand that out of any of the classes currently announced the female chosen career was more represented in lore then those found in the Empire or Dwarf factions.
Please also understand that the initial decision made by Mythic ( not by Games Workshop ) to forgo a female chosen was done so because of their inability to conceptualize a female chosen in a aesthetically pleasing way. It had nothing to do with the anything you described. They just did not have the artistic talent to get the job done the way they wanted it done.
- From an artistic standpoint, there was no good way to create a female Chosen that maintained the look and visual impact we wanted without sacrificing everything that could in any reasonable way be regarded as "feminine." We weren't simply going to strap a female head onto a male body and call it a female Chosen.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Not going to comment on the real-life examples debate, but I will comment on this:
Originally posted by Dameonk
That's all well and good. But can anyone tell me what real life women in today's world have to do with a fictional game, based in a fictional world, with real rules & lore that support the fact that I can count the number of female Chosen listed in the books on one hand? I know you guys have got into a whole other subject, but I would like to reiterate the fact that female Chosen are not common in Warhammer & they should not be common in a game based on Warhammer. Period.
End of story.
Thank you, come again.
And how many FEMALE DWARFS can you count in any of the lore/books or miniatures? Female dwarfs are just as rare as female Chosen in Warhammer (if not moreso) but we're going to be seeing plenty of those once the game is released. Female Runepriests, Engineers, Ironbreakers (the dwarf tank - just like the Chosen) and Hammmerers)
By your reasoning Mythic should cut out all female dwarfs, but they haven't. And GW has approved this.
So how does your 'End of story' logic explain this?
Mythic has shown they are willing to stretch the IP to make the game fit into a MMORPG. They have done this with female Warrior Priests and female Dwarfs. Their reason for not choosing to stretch the IP for Chosen is still not entirely clear but it sounds like it was an artistic choice.
Originally posted by zythen Originally posted by Riho06 Good, 80% of female characters in a MMO are male IRL(yes that's a made up stat but very close I'm sure). Why would you want to RP a woman?
On second thought I'd rather not know the answer to that...
your almost a decade off.. today is over 1/3 of the total gamers are female now .
Comments
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2.
Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot.
The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death.
Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death.
You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history.
So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature.
Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals.
Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts".
This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
I have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas. The fact was is the russians did not fight the germans with their army becuase it was destroyed, instead they through its civilains at the german lines. in these city battles everyone fought their was no civilian russian.
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change.
Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units.
Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death.
If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship.
Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2.
Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot.
The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death.
Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death.
You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history.
So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature.
Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals.
Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts".
This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
I have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas. The fact was is the russians did not fight the germans with their army becuase it was destroyed, instead they through its civilains at the german lines. in these city battles everyone fought their was no civilian russian.
Complete BS. The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change.
Also the forces destroyed by the Germans for the most part were obsolete units or units who were not ready for combat and poorly trained and equipped. In fact when the Germans faced well trained and armed Russian units they were often stymied and had to shift their general focus to overcome such Russian units.
Women were also part of many units in the Eastern front fielded by the Russians. While there were many who served in secondary roles there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death.
If you were captured by the Germans the Russians consider from then on to be a traitor for not fighting to the death. This belief was summoned up in the famous directive issued by Stalin himself called the "Stavka Order" in which anyone serving in the Army was not allow to take a single step back from the front lines and those who surrender were traitors and not worthy of Russian citizenship.
Many Russians soldiers (including civilians) who were liberated or escaped from German concentration camps were either shot dead on the spot by their fellow Russians or were put on show trials and sentenced to life in a Gulag camp up in Siberia.
Do youself a favor and go read some real history books on the subject. Anything written by the author Antony Beevor or Geoffrey Roberts is a good start.
I love reading about sexism is survival situations.
Women serve in 16 nations in NATO do you want me to list them for you? Women also still serve in the Israel Armed forces and Russian Armies along with the Chinese Armed forces, Vietnamese Armed forces, etc.. The circumstances of which women served in the Russian Army during WW2 and during the majority of the wars fought by Israel does not detract at all from their service. It just further illustrates that when push comes to shove women can pick up the slack. It is not at all a negative point to show that women served in the most darkest of hours for those nations and in fact further bolsters my argument.
Also The reason why women did not serve in the German armed forces has more to do with tradition and German culture then their inability for them to fight and serve in combat units. Hitler and the NAZI party were not exactly beacons of truth and equality and neither did they strive to uphold such creeds.
Second by the time the Germans had reached the outskirts of Moscow they were over extended and under supplied. They had already split their initial invasion forces ( on Hitlers orders ) into much smaller armies to cover 3 huge fronts in Russia which was fool hardy to say the least. Now throw in the effects of the Russian winter weather, badly equipped German military units who did not have the simplest of cold weather military gear and you have a recipe for disaster.
On top of this the Russians were hoarding their best units, and supplies for the battle for Moscow. They were also eagerly using the aid sent by the US to build up additional military units and improve their industrial complex to support the war effort. A industrial complex which for the most part was not even diminished one bit by the Germans as they could not reach into the Ural mountains to attack the huge and sprawling mass of Russian factories with their bombers.
Now coupled with the constant meddling of Hitler in the decision making process of the German army and it was clear that the German forces were doomed once they reached the outskirts of Moscow. Anyone with a clue and who has read more then several books on the topic will inform you that most German generals at the time who weren't NAZI party lackies were all in consensus in viewing the war in the East as a huge mistake.
In fact when Germans faced off against properly equipped and well trained Russian units they would more often then not meet their match in battle. While the German army did have an advantage in some areas it was not the juggernaut that most people who are not schooled in the history of WW2 thought it to be. More often then not when the German forces meet a foe that was ready and trained to meet them head on their ridged doctrines and concepts on war and constant meddling of Hitler himself would hinder them if not completely undermined their war effort. Lets also not for get that the Russians also ended up fielding some of the best tanks of the war.
The T-34/T-34-85 which was introduced in mass in 1940 was consider to be the best tank of the war at the time. Sure the German Panther and Tiger tanks were deadlier but they were never produced in enough numbers to over come the sheer volume of T-34's fielded by the Russians. Let's not also forget the Russian Mig-3's who were on the same level playing field as the German 109's. Or better yet the Yak-3's that more then match and in most cases surpassed the German 109's.
Third we are dealing with a fantasy world game. What you consider to be facts in the real world are irrelevant. Not to mention that the lore in Warhammer has many examples of female Chosen and female units...ie -> see Dark Elves. Also Mythic was able to use and create female Priests of Sigmar, and Knights of the Blazing Sun. So your point is mute and totally irrelevant. The truth of the matter is that this was based on the inability of Mythic to properly conceptualize a female Chosen and not have the guys in marketing throw a fit.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
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Okay Im seeing alot of "men are superior soldiers" and women are too hart felt for frontline combat. And im seeing 16 nations that women serve in armed forces... First i want you to list 16 first world nations that women fight frontline as riflemen ill send you my paycheck if you can list them.. second women fighting front line has nothing to do with superiority, my time in the USMC i have seen some women that can out shoot a man any day of the week and being a martial arts instructor i know alot of women that would drop even the badest of men. Now in an overall perspective sure maybe men are physically stronger and blah blah blah. But the real reason women dont stand front lines is the males natural instinct to protect women. A woman attached to an infantry unit would decrease its efficiency dramatically simply because the men in the unit would go out of their way to protect the women. And the military just wont intentionally put a woman in harms way because of this. Now there have been women that had to pick up a rifle and kick some A$$ but that is because the support unit they were attached to came under fire and they had no choice. I personally wouldnt have the stomach to sit frontline and watch a woman get blown to bits it would piss me off to the point were i would tear the enemies throat out with my teeth, and that is the factor todays 1st world militaries are trying to aviod. Perfect example is that movie i cant remember the name of where Demi Moore becomes a Navy Seal, and she is sitting behind those oil drums when that big burly brute with a big arse gun is bearing down on her. She tells the unit commander she can handle it pulls her knife out ready to use her expert training and skills to make a swift silent kill. But the protect my women instinct kicks in and the commander takes the fact that she is in mortal danger and risks the entire units safety by taking the shot. That there is the main reason women dont stand front lines, im sure people will post that was a movie blah blah blah, that particular part of the movie is actually the backbone of the many reasons why solid 1st world countries dont put women in frontline situations. We can argue about the middle east and wars that came and gone before anyone here was even thought of but the few times women did fight was basically there were no more options they were placed there because it was sink or swim time, everyone fights now or our entire country dies kinda situations. But todays US military is beginning to change things slowly, we have no female combatants still but we are beginning to filter in female combat pilots, so who is to say things wont change in the future but right now and in the past the reasons stated above is what kept women out of combat, im sure there are more but the ones i have stated are the main reasons our goverments dont place women in harms way. That being said lets get back to the issue at hand we are talking about a video game, that has a few classes that are male only but looke at what we are argueing about, the male only spots are based on norsemen now looking back on their history women did not fight with men on raiding parties or even on the battlefield that only happens in movies. In the norse history women only fought when they were directly fighting for their homes as in their village was being attacked and so forth, it was a male dominant society and women just were not trained in the arts of combat along side men, hence that is probably why they just arent allowed for thos few classes. But really no one but the devs know exactly why they only allow males to be the classes but my guess is they are trying to be somewhat true to the history of that particular society. Now i expect some flames about my spelling, and im sure there will be some rants about my statements but they are true and real. The attitude of "My little girl is not going to pick up a rifle and charge an enemy encampment, thats what my son is for", historically and presently is what keeps women from frontline combat. Now let the flaming begin.
Eh...for whatever reason, developers didn't feel like making female models for some of the race/class combos..... it's their game, their perogative and its doubtful they'll lose more than a handful of subscribers from this decision.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My only comment will be that I want to know how many commenters are actually women, and how many are men who are taking up the percieved womens cause?
Are you trying to be obtuse in your crusade for womens rights and confusing the issue of a GAME with the battleground that is equality?
I put it to you that things that are done in a game have no basis in reality, and you can argue all you like about how whatever paradigm in whatever medium is presented is a mirror of daily life and it MUST BE corrected, but everyone needs to get off thier soapboxes and do something in your daily life that helps your cause. This isn't one of them, nothing to see here, dead topic, move on, the topic is sexism in warhammer(a game) not 'sexism in the military' and 'sexism in biology'WAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHH!
We all know your for womens rights and making things equal, we get it, any sane person agree's with you, so quit it, focus on the context of a game, and playing a game, and all the inequalities in the game in the context of the game. Things like balance between careers and items, and how fun the game will be should be on your minds, not what gender your axe is cuz its sentient, oh my god, its not a female axe, its a male axe thats sexist...the electrons made into planets this argument has become.
Well, in the lore Chaos Chosen and Marauders are norsemen, following the chaos gods.
in the fluff there are actually, what i'd guess to be a few female chaos chosen warriors but you'd hardly notice any difference between the sexes in all that chaos armor and all the ornaments.
The norsemen didnt bring their women out in battle so, that might be why there are no female marauders.
In the end, its all up to Games workshop, if you dont like their lore, don't play the game - and stop being such whiners ^^
Well, in the lore Chaos Chosen and Marauders are norsemen, following the chaos gods.
in the fluff there are actually, what i'd guess to be a few female chaos chosen warriors but you'd hardly notice any difference between the sexes in all that chaos armor and all the ornaments.
The norsemen didnt bring their women out in battle so, that might be why there are no female marauders.
In the end, its all up to Games workshop, if you dont like their lore, don't play the game - and stop being such whiners ^^
Chosen are not strictly Norsemen. The Hordes of Chaos are comprised of many tribes such as the Kurgans, Hungs, and Tungs. They also include defectors of the Empire some of whom have become Chosen of their respect Chaos gods and some follow the Chaos United theme and they worship all Chaos gods equally.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
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So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I don't see why a female looking Chosen is necessary. You can't see any remnants of humanity in the concept art anyway. Chosen are completely encased in magical Chaos armor. Sure they look masculine, but who's to say what lies beneath? Or do people just want a Chosen with boobs? That seems a little superfluous to me.
If they were female only instead, I wouldn't be upset. I'd still play one. GW lore has plenty of instances of gender specific classes/troops. Sisters of Sigmar from Mordheim comes to mind. I think if they decide the Chosen should only be rendered in masculine armor, they're free to do so. I don't think it involves any sort of sexism on GW's or Mythic's part.
Obviously you're not a golfer.
Does it really matter? Unless your trying to hook up through the game but in that case how do you know what sex the other player is. To me I treat everyone as asexual. I have played with a lot of female gamers (my fiance whom is one) and alot of real life friends who play male toons. Seems to me its mostly the men who complain about not being a female. I know back in EQ my cleric was female because you would get better tips.
I have to admit that i did simply the issue but still i fail to see how anything i said was wrong. In fact if anything you support my claim, yet somehow draw the conclusion that i am wrong.
The fact was that the Russian army WAS all but destroyed READ a history book nubz. Stalin formed another and then held it back forever letting his civilians and remniet forces fight then he sent a massive wave. (he did send support/reinforcements but they where very sad).
"the reason why their were so many female on front lines often was they were shipped their for support and skilled fighter (air force and tank/vehicle) or they had lived in surrounding areas." I said this well your statements back this up.
Your statement " there were also many who fought along side their fellow male counter parts in front line military units especially in all the most famous city sieges where everyone including civilians where expected to fight and fight to the death."
This is not a female in the army on the front line this is a civilian population all being combatants and don't fool yourself there is a difference. See its not really a job or profession, nor something one or someone else chooses. This is supports my claim, and is not an example of female soldiers Combatants .. yes.
"The Russian army was not completely destroyed it was just sent into a chaotic nose dive by Stalin's inability to make sound battlefield decisions. It was only when Stalin realized that his orders and decisions were not exactly up to snuff and that it would be best to let the real military generals conduct the war that things started to change." -Wrong Stalin had no generals , he had killed almost all of them before the war, this was the real issues with the poor battlefield commanding (ie they basically had no military experienced leaders all around).
Of course you never know when your talking to a historian that doesn't want ask like a jack-off until someone comes up saying a ton of shit, tho you seem to have many of the facts right ... so why was my post BS?
Furthermore, I didn't say this also , what does modern warfare have to do with mid evil, when it comes to skill sets. Leadership (a bit), maybe courage, reaction time (somewhat good), But there is a giant divide in what made a warrior then and now. Then its GREATLY about strength. Professional soldiers were "effing" strong, with forearms like bodybuilders. there were bow also (depending on the time period) But don't fool yourself bows, pilum, etc take strength, Falaricas, Assegais, (not sure about chakram i don't know if we even know much about them i guess ill have to read up).
When com paired to men how much upper body strength do women have? Because your wear mail or plate, wielding a sword/shield, or heavy range weapon you have to string or throw, ps its around 50-60%. This here is enough to end this thread. The reason why females do not wield giant swords and heavy armor , is because in comparison to men they fall greatly behind. (OMG i did it i said the truth but its totally not PC Al Gore will burn me in hell).
What do women do great at (above men) - Smell (no joke), They see panoramic better (possible great scouts and watch"women"), flexibility, balance Hand eye coordination is still up in the air (atm it seems to lean to male having more and females having better fine motor skills.. Ie something to do with the spatial aspect of what men do with the movements).
Lets not go into the medical difference of which sexes body takes more damage (take a look t the bone structure).
As for the entire modern day armys... Women can be in them because the reaction time difference is very small, so is the hand-eye coordination And sometimes you have a heavy pack , but not always (its no great sword and plate, or 154 lb longbow). Really training is all that is needed because the tech does most of the work for you.
This once again is simplified why, because i have to go to work rofl. But that being said there is a reason why males were the soldiers is obvious and todays continuation of this may be a simple throw back of a logical reason.
PS- i have to note there are slight few female groups/armys of the past and in most of them armor was leather if not cloth, and the weapons were light. This does not mean they could not kill one of these was the most feared group/force of its area, but put up against armor clad, shield and longbow armys they would be out gunned.
-edit Russian active army was all but destroyed by the germans. This doesn't mean you can't call up more tho.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
This is silly... was gona post a long post... but it can all be summed up in....
GW owns the world they made... If you want to change the whole real life injustice against women start at your workplace and not my refuge from earlier mentioned real life.
This have been a good conversation
Wow...
I believe that the subject of this thread has been totally lost. All I see for the last few pages is talk about women in the armed forces/equality for women in the real world.
That's all well and good. But can anyone tell me what real life women in today's world have to do with a fictional game, based in a fictional world, with real rules & lore that support the fact that I can count the number of female Chosen listed in the books on one hand?
I know you guys have got into a whole other subject, but I would like to reiterate the fact that female Chosen are not common in Warhammer & they should not be common in a game based on Warhammer.
Period.
End of story.
Thank you, come again.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
I dont know what type of trash history books youve been reading but while the Russian army was hurled backward they where not wiped out. There were in fact many pockets of resistance and many units that survived the initial German assault into Russia. Sure many were beaten and banged up but the Germans did not have the forces needed to totally wipe out the Russian Army. In fact the further they extended themselves into Russia the further they stretched out their supply lines and they had more and more ground to protect from the Russians. It also seems like you dont even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow.
It seems obvious to me know that you most of gotten your knowledge from cheap Hollywood WW2 movies or video games. It also seems like you have no clue as to the nature of the Great Purge that Stalin inflicted onto his army. Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands.
It was also men like Zhukov who advised Stalin to the fact that he should hand over the reigns of power of the army to his generals because he was obviously endangering Russia and himself if he continued to meddle into the affairs of the Army. This is also why organizations such as the Stakva were created to further bolster and remove any incompetent Russian generals, commanders and officers along with policing the Russian army and ensuring its loyalty to Stalin. Unlike Hitler it was Stalin who learned from his mistakes and stepped away from interfering in the tactical and strategic areas of planning in the Russian army. This literally changed the nature of the war in a matter of months as no longer was the Russian Army shackled to the whims of Stalins decisions on the battlefield.
Also there is more then enough evidence to point to the roles of women in the Russian Army during WW2. Roles which were more then just civilians forced to fight as you so ignorantly seem to suggest. The Russian Army during WW2 was over 12 million strong and it was comprised of both men and women. The Russian army was noted as one of the largest armies to ever of fielded women in combat front line roles. Now I really hate doing the homework for stupid, lazy and ignorant people who based their knowledge off inaccurate but popular information but here it goes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Russian_and_Soviet_military#World_War_II
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so dont think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
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You do realize that women serve in the armed forces as combatants in many 1st world nations right? Hell Israel has had a long tradition of women serving in combat roles and many are serving as we speak. Women also served in almost every function and capacity within the Russian Army as well as in many partisan forces across Europe during WW2.
Some of the highest ranking Russian snipers during WW2 that killed 10's if not 100's of Germans were women snipers. Do you know what happens to any sniper that is discovered in a war zone by the enemy? About 99.9% of the time they are killed dead on the spot.
The Eastern front of WW2 was considered to be the bloodiest front of all of WW2 which was only later equaled too by the Pacific front and its island hoping campaigns. When it came to the "kill or be killed" style of warfare the Eastern Front had it in spades. No quarter was given or asked for by both the German and Russian fighting forces. In fact anyone who surrendered and were later freed was considered to be traitor for not dying in battle by the Russians. Most of these people were eventually sent to the gulags of Siberia to be worked to death.
Hell the battle of Stalingrad alone had just as many Russian women fighting as soldiers as it did men. The fighting done by both men and woman amounted to bitter urban trench style and guerrilla style warfare that end up in bloody street to street, house to house pitched battles many of which were to the death.
You also had women serving in combat roles within the North Vietnamese Army and Viet-Cong guerrilla forces during the Vietnam War. I could go on and on list example after example of women fighting along side men throughout history.
So now let's talk about a fantasy game were both men and woman are vulnerable to succumbing to the taint of a dark and sinister other worldly force known as Chaos. This force will always mutate them in some way at the same time granting them tremendous powers of both physical and magical nature.
Not to mention the countless references within the lore of this fantasy world of both sexes having lead war bands, and armies of their fellow tainted individuals.
Please don't tell me that this is not possible because as anyone well versed in the lore of this fantasy world knows and will tell you...."Chaos corrupts".
This decision was based upon the inability of the Mythic art team to properly conceptualize the lore in the Warhammer fantasy world in a way they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing to them and more then likely the marketing team.
Both the nations you state that use female or have used female soldiers were on the the brink of being destroyed. In the 2nd world war the Germans had the best army in the world this is not disputable it is a fact they had no female soldiers. Germany was within sight of Moscow the Russian capital before the winter started, if it hadn't been for the weather or the USA joining the war the Russians would have been defeated. Due to the harsh drops in temperature the petrol that German panzers used froze and left them immobile, the Russians used diesel which didn't freeze as easily. Now the Russians had to throw their entire population at the Germans to push them back, and even then estimations are that Russian casualties by the end of the war numbered around 30 million. So you see they had to use female snipers, soldiers ect because they were running out of men.
Israel was and in some cases is in a worse situation than Russia, they are compketely surrounded by Islamic nations that want to kill them down the last child. Israel has even fought 4 or 5 Arab nations simultaneously and won, they have a very small population and without female soldiers they wouldn't have the numbers to fight on the fronts they have to.
You say women serve as combatants in MANY 1st world nations, so far you have only mentioned 2 of which 1 no longer uses female soldiers.
Men have proven through our entire history to be superior soldiers and this cannot be disputed, why?... because it is fact. Now If Mythic want to have gender specific classes why get uptight about it. Sure the chosen and marauder may turn out to be male only but i'm sure the Darke Elves will have female only classes such as witch elves.
Women serve in 16 nations in NATO do you want me to list them for you? Women also still serve in the Israel Armed forces and Russian Armies along with the Chinese Armed forces, Vietnamese Armed forces, etc.. The circumstances of which women served in the Russian Army during WW2 and during the majority of the wars fought by Israel does not detract at all from their service. It just further illustrates that when push comes to shove women can pick up the slack. It is not at all a negative point to show that women served in the most darkest of hours for those nations and in fact further bolsters my argument.
Also The reason why women did not serve in the German armed forces has more to do with tradition and German culture then their inability for them to fight and serve in combat units. Hitler and the NAZI party were not exactly beacons of truth and equality and neither did they strive to uphold such creeds.
Second by the time the Germans had reached the outskirts of Moscow they were over extended and under supplied. They had already split their initial invasion forces ( on Hitlers orders ) into much smaller armies to cover 3 huge fronts in Russia which was fool hardy to say the least. Now throw in the effects of the Russian winter weather, badly equipped German military units who did not have the simplest of cold weather military gear and you have a recipe for disaster.
On top of this the Russians were hoarding their best units, and supplies for the battle for Moscow. They were also eagerly using the aid sent by the US to build up additional military units and improve their industrial complex to support the war effort. A industrial complex which for the most part was not even diminished one bit by the Germans as they could not reach into the Ural mountains to attack the huge and sprawling mass of Russian factories with their bombers.
Now coupled with the constant meddling of Hitler in the decision making process of the German army and it was clear that the German forces were doomed once they reached the outskirts of Moscow. Anyone with a clue and who has read more then several books on the topic will inform you that most German generals at the time who weren't NAZI party lackies were all in consensus in viewing the war in the East as a huge mistake.
In fact when Germans faced off against properly equipped and well trained Russian units they would more often then not meet their match in battle. While the German army did have an advantage in some areas it was not the juggernaut that most people who are not schooled in the history of WW2 thought it to be. More often then not when the German forces meet a foe that was ready and trained to meet them head on their ridged doctrines and concepts on war and constant meddling of Hitler himself would hinder them if not completely undermined their war effort. Lets also not for get that the Russians also ended up fielding some of the best tanks of the war.
The T-34/T-34-85 which was introduced in mass in 1940 was consider to be the best tank of the war at the time. Sure the German Panther and Tiger tanks were deadlier but they were never produced in enough numbers to over come the sheer volume of T-34's fielded by the Russians. Let's not also forget the Russian Mig-3's who were on the same level playing field as the German 109's. Or better yet the Yak-3's that more then match and in most cases surpassed the German 109's.
Third we are dealing with a fantasy world game. What you consider to be facts in the real world are irrelevant. Not to mention that the lore in Warhammer has many examples of female Chosen and female units...ie -> see Dark Elves. Also Mythic was able to use and create female Priests of Sigmar, and Knights of the Blazing Sun. So your point is mute and totally irrelevant. The truth of the matter is that this was based on the inability of Mythic to properly conceptualize a female Chosen and not have the guys in marketing throw a fit.
What the Nazi's did to the Jew's was unforgiveable but because they were evil tpwards one type of people does not mean they were like that with everything. Hitler wanted better living for all Germans that is why he invaded surrounding countries, for living space for his people to expand into. Most Germans had a very good living under the Nazi party, the whole basis of what Hitler was doing he believd benfitted his people.
Yes I agree the standard of living for your average German was considered to be high at the time. Yet the NAZI viewed women as inferiors. The NAZIs also had a strong imbedded belief in the family unit and that a woman's sole focus in life was to be a part of the family. They opposed the view that women should empower themselves and were totally against the womens rights movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Women.27s_rights
See now you are just confusing reality with fantasy. Not to mention that you are also somehow confuse Warhammer with Tolkiens world. While Warhammer may have been influenced by Tolkien-esque themes to a small degree it does not bare any resemblance to it all besides the races used in the game.
Second this Warhammer takes place in a renaissance styled period and not a dark age styled period. Not to mention that the Empire and Dwarfs also fields many units that use guns and canons. There also are plenty of examples of females fighting in the Warhammer. The Sisters of the Sigmar are a good example. As well as the forces of Chaos who have had female Chosen ( especially Slannesh ) as well as other units such as casters. The Dark elves themselves also field tons of female characters in their core army units.
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/darkelves/catalog/warriors.htm
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so don’t think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Once again you simply can't graps what i am saying so ill make it short (See as once again your claims are appels to oranges, as i agree with you can you have not said anythign counter to what i have said really, you simply agree then you somehow conclude i am wrong and disagree.)
I never said females were not in the russina army, however instead, look at what possitions they held.
Instead of mouthing off , this will paint a different picture than you present.
Tip - REAd the freaking resources you use.
"While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty."
You must be thinking, "Oh Nosss what did i link" (this is part of reference one that wiki uses (the only resource it uses), Women and the Soviet Military by Mary Louise O'Brien and Lt. Col. Chris Jefferies, USAF , Air university review. Jan-feb. 1982 .)
Basiclly, I KNOW WHAT THE HECK I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Now that we see that the women in the russian armed forces during WW2 (not the civilains) were vastly in support roles [ mechinizard warfare a far distant second, sniping a even further third]. So now can you stop saying otherwise.
Furthermore, you totally ignore that chosen do not use guns or tanks, they have plate and a giant sword which males WILL be better with, and this is my real point. I have to admit i could not stop myself from using your own reference to discredit you.
For a refresher this is what i said off the bat, "have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas."
You said i was wrong .. I wasn't, your own resource supports my claim.
"It also seems like you don’t even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow." Why even type this? this is an illogical argument because it came out of no where, we never even addressed the issue.
"Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands." -Uhh i am right can you can't concied it, so you list off a few people left. I agree that hitler shot his own foot , he had arguably some of the best generals in the world ... just had to listen to them more.
Ok next person mcharj11 , i never said females hand-eye coordiation is faster. I talked about males faster reaction times... however, who's hand-eye is more accurate? And i promiss you this one is not known.. there is research that says both both ways.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Now son go back to school and pay attention in class. Make sure you read your history books instead of drawing in them. Also not everything you see in WW2 video games is exactly factual okay so dont think that you know it all because you played a few WW2 video games or WW2 Hollywood movies.
As for Warhammer lore there are in fact more then just a few example of female Chosen in the world of Warhammer fantasy. In fact there are more examples of female Chosen then there are of female priest of Sigmar, Knights of the Blazing Sun, female dwarven Iron hammerers, etc all of which are included in the game already. Again the only reason why Mythic did not include female Chosen had to do with the inability of their artists to portray them in a fashion that they deemed to be aesthetically pleasing and which marketing would not send back to be redone.
Once again you simply can't graps what i am saying so ill make it short (See as once again your claims are appels to oranges, as i agree with you can you have not said anythign counter to what i have said really, you simply agree then you somehow conclude i am wrong and disagree.)
I never said females were not in the russina army, however instead, look at what possitions they held.
Instead of mouthing off , this will paint a different picture than you present.
Tip - REAd the freaking resources you use.
"While 40 percent of the medical officers at the front were women, the greatest percentage of women served in rear areas to release men for combat duty."
You must be thinking, "Oh Nosss what did i link" (this is part of reference one that wiki uses (the only resource it uses), Women and the Soviet Military by Mary Louise O'Brien and Lt. Col. Chris Jefferies, USAF , Air university review. Jan-feb. 1982 .)
Basiclly, I KNOW WHAT THE HECK I AM TALKING ABOUT.
Now that we see that the women in the russian armed forces during WW2 (not the civilains) were vastly in support roles [ mechinizard warfare a far distant second, sniping a even further third]. So now can you stop saying otherwise.
Furthermore, you totally ignore that chosen do not use guns or tanks, they have plate and a giant sword which males WILL be better with, and this is my real point. I have to admit i could not stop myself from using your own reference to discredit you.
For a refresher this is what i said off the bat, "have to disagree the reason why their were so many female on frontlines often was they were shiped their for support and skilled fighter (airforce and tank/vehical) or they had lived in surrounding areas."
You said i was wrong .. I wasn't, your own resource supports my claim.
"It also seems like you dont even have a true grasp of the amount of territory that Germans ended up having to cover when they reached the outskirts of Moscow." Why even type this? this is an illogical argument because it came out of no where, we never even addressed the issue.
"Yes about 90% of the officer and higher echelon staff was executed or imprisoned but there were still quite a few officers and generals who survived the purge like Semyon Timoshenko and Georgy Zhukov along with many more who were promoted upwards into higher field commands." -Uhh i am right can you can't concied it, so you list off a few people left. I agree that hitler shot his own foot , he had arguably some of the best generals in the world ... just had to listen to them more.
Ok next person mcharj11 , i never said females hand-eye coordiation is faster. I talked about males faster reaction times... however, who's hand-eye is more accurate? And i promiss you this one is not known.. there is research that says both both ways.
Your paltry quote does not detract from the fact that women did serve and they did fight in front line roles. That women in the Soviet Union also earned the highest awards given that were also given to men.
Yes great numbers of women served in the rear doing jobs that otherwise men would do in positions such as manufacturing industry but a good number did serve in Russian military. They served with honor and they served commendably. You whole premise has been up to so far that women could not and did not serve in front line roles which is false. Women did serve in front line positions as quoted from your own source which you selectively quote out
of context.
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1982/jan-feb/obrien.html
Ah see it appears they served in more then just "rear combat roles" using your own source.
Now next time you quote something make damn sure you put the previous relevant parts that proceeded your quote into it to put it into context. Unless of course you are debating with a agenda of your own making. If this is the case I can see why you left this out to promote your fallacy of a claim.
Women served in the Russian armed services which you acknowledge and they served in many areas including front line positions as quoted by your very own source parts of which you did not include. Now more then ever I seriously doubt that you even have a clue of what you are talking about and if anything you are arguing so as not to look as if you are wrong. Just deal with the fact that woman when given the chance can serve in modern day militaries and in front line positions as they did in the Soviet Union in WW2 when asked to do so.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
I see whut yu did thar!
Don't even go there, anyone still aruing this topic insofar as its some sexism issue, has lost any right to talk on this topic. It's a game, Games workshop is tha arbiters, You gave your opinion, many many many many many times, now its just nausiating. Like I said, we get it, you think its sexist, you think women should be whatever whereever whenever however whyever. it really isn't about that and you know it, your just being obtuse for no other reason than to keep the debate going, which is doing no good, and worsening whatever opinion you may have.
Tell me dis, if tzeench made a decree from the beggining that 'no females in my precious army, shooo, shooo, go play with some other toys' would you be aruing that a mystical creature was sexist and deserves a boycott in real life? considering a world of gods, and races over and above that one mythical/fantasy god? Are you aruing that russian women were goddesses on the field of battle because they were indeed there, just cuz you can't figure out in what preportion, so they should be a warrior under tzeench, and how darnit?
If there was already lore in the game that said there were no female chosen it would be fine by me as it would be in line with lore. Oh and it was not Games Workshop who decided they were not going to do a female chosen. It was Mythic who decided it was not worth the trouble doing one because they couldn't get it right artistically.
The fact remains that female Chosen had more lore supporting them in the game then supporting the currently implemented female Priest of Sigmar or Knight of the Blazing Sun or other Dwarf careers.
Anyways....So basically you don't want to hear anyone else's point of view.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
[quote]Originally posted by mcharj11
Misfit i did not confuse Warhammer with Tolkien i was saying that Warahmmer is greatly influenced by Tolkien. I never said either that Wrahmmer was soley based on dark age fantasy, i said it was both dark age and renaissance. the fact is though that female chosen just are not very abundant so i doesn't make sense to have thousands of them running around in the game. All the lore masters here have stated that female chosen are very few and far between.
Seriously does it really matter if you have female chosen in game or not?
Really so tell me how many priest of Sigmar that are female have you seen on the table top or read about in lore? Or what about female Knight's of the Blazing Sun, or female dwarf Ironbreakers?
The fact remains that there are a ton more examples of Chaos female chosen in lore then there are in both Empire and Dwarf careers that I listed. The non-inclusion of a Chaos female chosen is just plain sad and absurd when you understand that out of any of the classes currently announced the female chosen career was more represented in lore then those found in the Empire or Dwarf factions.
Please also understand that the initial decision made by Mythic ( not by Games Workshop ) to forgo a female chosen was done so because of their inability to conceptualize a female chosen in a aesthetically pleasing way. It had nothing to do with the anything you described. They just did not have the artistic talent to get the job done the way they wanted it done.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
This is one of the best debates I have read on these forums. Thank you for a good read.
Not going to comment on the real-life examples debate, but I will comment on this:
And how many FEMALE DWARFS can you count in any of the lore/books or miniatures? Female dwarfs are just as rare as female Chosen in Warhammer (if not moreso) but we're going to be seeing plenty of those once the game is released. Female Runepriests, Engineers, Ironbreakers (the dwarf tank - just like the Chosen) and Hammmerers)
By your reasoning Mythic should cut out all female dwarfs, but they haven't. And GW has approved this.
So how does your 'End of story' logic explain this?
Mythic has shown they are willing to stretch the IP to make the game fit into a MMORPG. They have done this with female Warrior Priests and female Dwarfs. Their reason for not choosing to stretch the IP for Chosen is still not entirely clear but it sounds like it was an artistic choice.
your almost a decade off.. today is over 1/3 of the total gamers are female now .
your almost a decade off.. today is over 1/3 of the total gamers are female now .
Necromancer!
Seriously, why dredge up two ancient topics about the same thing on the same day?