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solo content: the bane of MMO existence
Swiftblade13
Member Posts: 638
I think MMO's need to have solo content for when it is needed or wanted, but solo'ing should not yield equal rewards to grouping.
What I'm saying is that since solo play is just as rewarding as group play, and group play takes more effort and puts you in danger if someone else makes a mistake....
most people simply solo most of the time rather then group.... which makes it hard to find a group unless you are working on a specific piece of group content that others are forced to group to complete....
The end result is that nowadays the majority of players solo through most of the game, and it makes the game play less like an MMO and more like an offline RPG with a chat room.
Solo content should be the secondary to group content... you should solo only when you cant or really dont want to group... not solo most of the time and group up only when you absolutely have to.
Discuss.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Comments
Play the way you want to play.
Why does this topic have to be canvassed at least once a month? The same questions are asked over and over, with the same answers.
Forum search is your friend.
C
People seem to forget that these games are supposed to be mmoRPG's. ROLE PLAYING GAMES... as in role play with your friends. I get that not everyone is into it, but really that's the point of these games and quests and all are just something they build around the concept of role playing with many people... I personally hate running around just for the sake of grinding for the leet loot in that greedfest that steals the spirit and heart away from story based games... I have nothing against people who do, that's what they enjoy... but I think I enjoy a well built mmo simply because I'm doing what it's mostly built for, enjoying the atmosphere and role playing with the community... to each their own.
Single player content is very important to a multiplayer game like this... and even 99% of those quests can be enjoyed with friends. If you're bored, stop trying to grind and help others out, make some friens, or heck, log off a bit come back when there's more of what YOU like added. That's also why I got the lifetime sub... if I reach a point where I want more, I'll just take some time off and come back whenever.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
If solo content ruins an MMO in anyway then there is something fundamentally wrong with the MMO. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with solo content in any amount in an MMO.
If people are preferentially soloing instead of grouping then it is not a matter of punishing people for soloing/rewarding them for grouping (ie. what most MMOs do) it is a matter of making grouping more interesting. I would rather group in CoX because the large spawns and greater frequency of bosses is more interesting. Solo is quite predictable and sometimes fun and what I am in the mood for, but in general grouping is more interesting.
I can't say the same for being a healer in WoW. Sometimes I would purposely avoid groups and solo just for a break from that crappy heal grind and people desparate whininess to shove me into a role very few wanted.
If you make an MMO and people would rather solo in your game than group then that is because the game is made that way, whether people want to admit it or not.
In fact your basic premise is proven false by CoV. The devs pruposefully made all classes more solo friendly than CoH and yet people still group up.
You are projecting the effects of bad design onto people's preferences and making an incorrect inference. People will not preferentially solo, just because. They preferentially solo in LoTRO or WoW because grouping adds very little added interest and is a pain in the ass. You want to force people to play a certain way and ironically re-enforce the bad design. Instead you should be asking (well demanding really) that devs make games where people actually like to group rather than are forced to group.
CoX did it, why can't these other schmoes do it? Solo is fast and convienent in CoX and it can even be challenging and fun, but its just not the same as running with a group. Plus CoX doesn't fall back on the crappy tank and spank rigid roles BS paradigm like a piece of crap designed game like EQ1. You can tank and spank or you can go with an 8 scrapper team or an 8 defender team. Again another irony, the rigid roles that forced groupers have a mania for forcing onto other actually causes solo play to mess things up because it makes group play so boring and predictable.
Look at the two game with more fluid roles: CoX and Guild Wars (strange they are both NCSoft games) these two games have grouping that is more fun and interesting than WoW or EQ1 or EQ2. Whether you like the games themselves or not is irrelevant, the actual game is more interesting and more varied when you are talking about groups.
Shove everyone into Tank/spank/heal roles and you make your game even more boring than it needs to be, and then guess what? People would rather solo than group. The sad fact is that my druid in WoW was more interesting to play solo. Once he got shoved into a group role it was like being neutered, unless I got really lucky and could play the jack of all trades role.
Don't blame the players, blame the design. If people aren't doing something its because they don't want to, that means the designers failed to make it fun. This is a game. If solo caused you to level twice as fast then that would be different, but it doesn't. sometimes its slightly faster, but for the most part people solo because of bad group gameplay design that relies on forced grouping principles rather than actually trying to make it fun or interesting.
If you have to incentivize people to play your group content then you need to step back and say "whoah hold on a minute people actually would rather avoid this stuff? What the heck are we doing? If we do our jobs right people should be lining up to group because they want to."
Instead they punish soloers and reward groupers with carrots and lack of carrots. Afterall why try to actually make something good? We can just prioritize content and shunt the players around to where we want them to go. I mean why do the work to make everything enjoyable?
But you are missing the point. I don't want any friends, in fact I'm a pretty anti-social individual who doesn't really need to company of others to enjoy playing a game. That's not to say I don't understand and participate in group mechanics.... if game content requires more than one person to accomplish, I will be there, I will play my role effectively, and then I will leave.
We may be guild mates, I may help you from time to time, though you will rarely get a chance to help me cause I'll almost never ask. When I'm done playing the game I'll move on..... and its doubtful we'll meet again. Heck you might even think I like you....but you'd be wrong..I don't dislike you.... I just don't really care either way.
I view people in MMO's as friends of "convenience"...... we need each other for now.... but eventually we'll go our separate ways..and it doesn't bother me in the least.
I realize that many folks make lifelong friends in these games, move from one game to the next with each other, and sometimes play only to hang with their friends. I don't understand any of this of course.... but hey, some folks even like to craft, and I understand their motivations even less.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Perscrption: Elder Scrolls - OBLIVION .. hehe but seriously if that's your game style that's fine you're more than welcome in every MMO you choose to give your business to. I enjoy the social aspects of a game but also am a loner by choice many times. It's all in what you prefer at the time, to me.
BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.
But you are missing the point. I don't want any friends, in fact I'm a pretty anti-social individual who doesn't really need to company of others to enjoy playing a game. That's not to say I don't understand and participate in group mechanics.... if game content requires more than one person to accomplish, I will be there, I will play my role effectively, and then I will leave.
We may be guild mates, I may help you from time to time, though you will rarely get a chance to help me cause I'll almost never ask. When I'm done playing the game I'll move on..... and its doubtful we'll meet again. Heck you might even think I like you....but you'd be wrong..I don't dislike you.... I just don't really care either way.
I view people in MMO's as friends of "convenience"...... we need each other for now.... but eventually we'll go our separate ways..and it doesn't bother me in the least.
I realize that many folks make lifelong friends in these games, move from one game to the next with each other, and sometimes play only to hang with their friends. I don't understand any of this of course.... but hey, some folks even like to craft, and I understand their motivations even less.
Kyleran, you have just adequately conveyed the way I am , also. Except I do like the crafting. it gives me a use for those other players, as they feed my coffers while I supply them with weapons/armor.
solo contents is nice, because not everyone got time, and intrest to be told what to do by control freaks..
but than on the outher hand it has made it hard to find groups, and i also understand that.. because there is always someone leaving in the middle of an instance etc.
so only solution i can see on the whole problem is... Join a nice Guild
* Edited, thought we talked about something different
Why the heck would you pay 15$ a month to play solo? The social aspect is what makes MMO's different from offline RPG's like elder scrolls. Why not just go play a game of football out in the backyard all by yourself?
But then.. this is MMORPG which means that probably the only reason most of you pay 15$ a month is to get live opponents to combat instead of AI.... I'm all for PvP, but the social aspect is what draws me to MMO's.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
I'll have to disagree about LOTRO, theres tons of group content, I was first Champion on my server because i did every group quest.
Anyways, I do agree that MMO's should encourage grouping, but not demand it. there should be CHOICE. I want to be able to decide if i want to group with one, 2 3 4 5 people, or more, and still level effectively.
Unfortunately for me, part of gaming lately has been to determine if grouping or soloing nets better XP
Currently waiting for - Perfect World English, Age of Conan
How to play Perfect World in english
Currently messing with - Requiem Online
I don't know why you can't solo and be social. I do... frequently.
I don't know why you can't solo and be social. I do... frequently.
/agree 100%
Currently waiting for - Perfect World English, Age of Conan
How to play Perfect World in english
Currently messing with - Requiem Online
For me the "Bane of MMO's" are people like you who demand everyone play the way they do.
And it's mmoRPG not MMO what happened to the RPG isn't it just as important as the MM or the O?
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Sometimes whether i solo or group is dependent on my mood at the time. Sometimes I feel like working with others, and sometimes I only want to have to worry about myself. Sometimes I have enough time to hunt for a group, and sometimes I don't.
Grouping up isn't always fun and games. Everyone has experienced bad groups before: People that don't know how to play their class, people that roll on stuff they can't use, people that just don't care and pull every aggro they can see. There are often very compelling reasons of why grouping up can sometimes ruin your enjoyment of the game. Whereas when you are solo, you have complete control and no one to blame but yourself if something goes wrong.
You can blame antisocial if you want, and thats certainly true for many people, but that is just a drop of water in a vast ocean of reasons why grouping up in no way gaurentees an enjoyable experience.
I've been in dozons of guilds... and only 2 would I describe as being fun when all things are considered. I probably have bad luck in that area but just the fact that it is so hard to find decent human beings sometimes can be a huge deterent in wanting to group up at any given time.
EQ 2 does an excellent job of satisfying soloers, groupers, and raiders and all of the above. I am something of all of the above but mostly a soloer or a duoer/trioer with close friends.
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solo content exists because people are unsatisfied with group content.
it's not that people necessarily dislike grouping or are anti-social, (in a game world, you don't have to be social to be social)
it's that the content is poorly developed. In wow, the only point of the game is to level as fast as you can, if experience is better alone, why group?
imo, the real problem is that people are always in a time crunch to gain xp at a rate commendable to the time they are putting in, to be more efficient and to level faster...
the problem is that mmo's are so often based around leveling. it's not about survival...
i enjoyed world of warcraft, but i'd like to see an mmo that puts a new spin on the genre... one that emphasizes the value of teamwork and cooperation because rewards eschew from those things...
people should group up and adventure to survive, not just to gain xp. the leveling treadmill takes the magic of teamwork and exploring away, which is why it's not as highly valued....
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Swiftblade kind of agree. Are you really saying there should be lots more group content than there is rather than just the pug quests. I've not played LOTRO so don't know what grouping opportunities there are but I think I'm understanding what you're bemoaning, I think? Ie, that there should be much more grouping opportunities for those that want to group and to encourage other people to maybe group and with that in mind needs to be some sort of additional incentive.
totaly agree.. another nice part is that a lot of stuff you do solo, can also benifit your guild, and than again your guildmates
I've been playing different MMO's with one and only one, absolutely amazing
(yes I'm a suck up), man for almost 3 years now. He's the reason I would pay $15+ a month to play. That's OUR time together, we play how we want, and I think I'm safe in saying that we don't normally want a large group situation, and honestly some group content is just too much for two people to handle. For us, solo content is the way to go, it may be too easy for us in most circumstances but it beats getting frustrated and pissed off trying to accomplish something that's too hard for two players.
What I can't seem to fathom is why you feel that everyone should think or "be" like you.
I appreciate you want more grouping and I agree with others that grouping should be made a more valued experience so that players will want to group for that particular experience.
But what you are completely glossing over is that there are multitude ways to actually interact with others.
I personally solo most of the time. But I really enjoy talking with guild/clan mates while I'm doing it. Or going on a particular quest or raid to be a part of that experience.
But that doesn't mean that i have to do this (or want to do this) all the time.
It seems that you can only envision "one" type of interaction between players and just can't make the jump to the logical conclusion that if players are "mostly soloing" yet insist on playing an online game then there "must" be some reason they are doing it.
Otherwise they could save their monthly fee and any grief/annoyance from less than generous players and just enjoy themselves.
So my question to you is: "Since players 'do' seek out online games but insist on soloing often, what possible reasons could you come up with in order to explain it?"
Because therein lies your answer!
Heck, it could even be that they just like the world and the "hustle and bustle" of other players going around doing their own thing.
And if you want to tie it into real life you can also see that there are many different people out there who interact with friends, family, strangers in a myriad of ways.
Can you honestly say that every person seeks group experiences (in real life) all the time? Isn't it much more accurate that there are people out there who only have a handful of really good friends along with people out there who are the quintessential "social butterflies".
Where games falter is forcing people to group or forcing players to rely on groups and not making it worthwhile for others to seek those groups.
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when MMO's where being pioneered and even shortly thereafter, the central focus of this genre was never thought to be grouping with people to complete all objectives in the game. It was more to belong in a dynamic world where you could build houses, become a master armor crafter or an infamous murderer. Become reknowned for your quick blade, your ability to slay monsters and reap the rewards of your own labor
it was thought to be something of a more open ended world, where you could adventure and find new and exciting things. You could build a castle, form a society or community.
Then, along came the connect-the-dot pez dispenser MMO's. Quickly quests became mundane, and to fix this they decided you should need numerous people to complete because solo individuals blew threw them so quickly. Questing became more group centric. This developed into raids and waiting and grouping for hours upon hours.
no offense but IMO, its the mindset like the OP that has ruined MMO's and turned it into nothing more than a theme park to sit and wait with people for your turn at whatever the prize may be.
"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
What ever happened to freedom?
Yeah, I'll pay 15 bucks a month to be forced to group with people 100% of the time cause its multiplayer and we're *supposed* to work with other players.
How about I pay 15 bucks a month to play the way I want and group up with the people I want?
Solo and grouping content should yield equal rewards, people shouldnt be forced into doing something they dont want to. Its a multiplayer game, but I can do lots of stuff rather than just grouping to get the social and *mulitplayer* aspect out of it.
Like debunking posts on forums, like these - for instance.
I bet you only want controlled PvP too, where theres pvp zones no death penalty and people can spawn over and over without any meaning? (with button mashing) mmm yeah, I DEFINITLY want to play this MMO! sign me up! Just remember, Need only if you need it, dont greed! Even if this is your 200th time raiding!
I agree with most of the people posting in this thread. In fact, nearly all of them. That sort of says something, no? I pay $15 a month for CoX. I usually pop in every day or so for an hour or two. I usually solo because I don't play for long stretches at a time. I used to do the same with EQ2 and some other games. Now and then I group with friends and it's always a good time. I socialise with loads of people via chat and, when possible, group with those people I've enjoyed chatting with. Even if I never grouped or socialised but enjoyed the game nonetheless, I would pay the $15. I know quite a few people who do that. The majority of single player games, although some are quite fun, just don't give the same feeling or provide the same entertainment for me. I don't see anything wrong with paying a monthly sub for a game which adds new content. Actually, I see anything wrong with people paying for whatever sort of entertainment they enjoy.
(I think I dangled a participle or two in that post. Sorry!
)
And that is why I no longer play FFXI. I love the game to death, but the forced grouping just kills it for me. After around level 15 or so there is NOTHING you can do solo if you want to make a decent pace. Even farming mobs for cash requires you to kill stuff way below your level in order to keep from being killed.
I can still remember times when I had to wait upwards of 2 hours for a group, that usually just disbanded after an hour or so. If that's the openers idea of a good MMO, then I think you are honestly crazy. Heavily group oriented MMO's are flawed anyway. What happens when new people join a low pop server, or join the game after the population starts declining?
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