Make Your Voice Heard: Jedi

JK-Kanosi · August 2007

Below is a link to a thread in the SWG official forums. If you are have a Station Access Pass, you can post on these forums and make yourself heard. Hopefully, these new Devs will have enough sense to listen to their player base this time.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=417942

moostown · August 2007

Jedi ruined this game in my eyes, theres no room for a alpha class and 200k Jedi running about makes no sense. They made every patch about them and knocked the whole game into inbalance and ruined the economy. If we didn't have Jedi Pre cu then maybe they woulda spent time fixing the balancing issues with other professions that actually needed it and maybe even fixed the armor and doctor buff issue.

SioBabble · August 2007

The problem with Jedi is that marketing wanted them to sell more units, no matter how badly they screwed up the long term viablitity of the game.

LA wanted huge dumptruckloads of cash, NOW, which is how they've always operated. Master Yoda would have expelled these impatient twits from the Jedi temple in a heartbeat. They thought Jedi in SWG would deliver the dumptrucks full of cash to them.

Agricola1 · August 2007

Originally posted by moostown

Jedi ruined this game in my eyes, theres no room for a alpha class and 200k Jedi running about makes no sense. They made every patch about them and knocked the whole game into inbalance and ruined the economy. If we didn't have Jedi Pre cu then maybe they woulda spent time fixing the balancing issues with other professions that actually needed it and maybe even fixed the armor and doctor buff issue.

I disagree with your point about the alpha class and think it worked. I agree about every publish turning out to be ANOTHER Jedi publish or a pseudo-Jedi publish. If SOE had left Jedi as it was and concentrated on fixing the game and working out the problems, like all the players were asking them to it would be fine. But no, the whining Jedi were always first in the queue for patches and so on, in fact Jedi had there own queue while the rest of us stood by and watched them get all the attention. That screwed it up for me, they'd promise "The next publish is the Jedi publish and they won't get anymore", but of course the next publish was 50% fixes and content for Jedi everyone else fought for the scraps that were left.

Then JTL (Jump to Lagspeed) came it was originaly half of an expansion but it got split into two (JTL and RoTW) so they could milk us for more. Again though Jedi got all the attention making the Village and the quests for Jedi disabling the BH system, whilst we stood by shrugging our shoulders looking at eachother saying "WTF?". I left just before the CU as I was sure it was gonna be crap and another pseudo-Jedi expansion. I'm watching ducks now on the pond, feeding them bread and waiting to see if one bursts into flight!

Suvroc · August 2007

That's all good stuff, but in my opinion this is what a Jedi MMO should be.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEsz9ci5XE

iskar · August 2007

Originally posted by Agricola1

Originally posted by moostown

Jedi ruined this game in my eyes, theres no room for a alpha class and 200k Jedi running about makes no sense. They made every patch about them and knocked the whole game into inbalance and ruined the economy. If we didn't have Jedi Pre cu then maybe they woulda spent time fixing the balancing issues with other professions that actually needed it and maybe even fixed the armor and doctor buff issue.

I disagree with your point about the alpha class and think it worked. I agree about every publish turning out to be ANOTHER Jedi publish or a pseudo-Jedi publish. If SOE had left Jedi as it was and concentrated on fixing the game and working out the problems, like all the players were asking them to it would be fine. But no, the whining Jedi were always first in the queue for patches and so on, in fact Jedi had there own queue while the rest of us stood by and watched them get all the attention. That screwed it up for me, they'd promise "The next publish is the Jedi publish and they won't get anymore", but of course the next publish was 50% fixes and content for Jedi everyone else fought for the scraps that were left.

Then JTL (Jump to Lagspeed) came it was originaly half of an expansion but it got split into two (JTL and RoTW) so they could milk us for more. Again though Jedi got all the attention making the Village and the quests for Jedi disabling the BH system, whilst we stood by shrugging our shoulders looking at eachother saying "WTF?". I left just before the CU as I was sure it was gonna be crap and another pseudo-Jedi expansion. I'm watching ducks now on the pond, feeding them bread and waiting to see if one bursts into flight!

Jedi worked, I was one ... pre-9 -- unlocked in 6/7 -- trust me it worked.. and there was not 200k running around at all then.

Bottom line, they should have made it harder not eaiser to get... WE HID... man, I never showed my Jedi anywhere..I tried to stay alive for crap sake. WIth the TEFS, bounties, Faction, GAME BEING HARDER... I mean If I came up on a Nightsister I could get owned if I did not know what I was doing... that alone tells you somthing.

What ruined it was SOE and marketing. They knew this is what people would want... so they abused it. Instead of them sticking to more mysterious ways, or changing it as they went along ... they got jammed up. They used Jedi as a tool vs making it a mini game of sorts like it was intended. Jedi was never meant to be the marketing ploy... it was a end-game mini-game with hardships and a learning curve. (Pre-9 this is of course) -- ONCE they brought the CU and the shrines it all changed for the worse over time.

For one it was much eaiser and then all this double XP- grouping crap, no visibility.. in FACT telling you WHAT GAVE visibility.. Hell, we didn't even know that in the pre-9 days. You die three times and your screwed in a 7/8 day span.

Jedi did not hurt the game, marketing and the Dev team did that much better. The concept was great.... a good reward and somthing to shoot for. Because trust me, perma death and losing a skill box SUCKED... so you could not be stupid. (Not saying some were not, but most wern't).

iskar · August 2007

Originally posted by Suvroc

That's all good stuff, but in my opinion this is what a Jedi MMO should be.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leEsz9ci5XE

lol while this is the best skit ever ---(real one) -- I can also tell you were not a pre-9 Jedi heh.

"We did not live that long in a fight I can tell you that much".

Note- the GORAX HURTS!!!

moostown · August 2007

Well i'm all up for Permadeath which could have worked but most people on the forums moaned about it so they took it out. It's like the NGE when they were going to bring back decay but all the people ont he forums who said they wanted it cried and changed their minds : So the NGE got nothing.

SioBabble · August 2007

Originally posted by iskar

Jedi worked, I was one ... pre-9 -- unlocked in 6/7 -- trust me it worked.. and there was not 200k running around at all then.

Bottom line, they should have made it harder not eaiser to get... WE HID... man, I never showed my Jedi anywhere..I tried to stay alive for crap sake.    WIth the TEFS, bounties, Faction, GAME BEING HARDER... I mean If I came up on a Nightsister I could get owned if I did not know what I was doing... that alone tells you somthing.
What ruined it was SOE and marketing.   They knew this is what people would want... so they abused it.     Instead of them sticking to more mysterious ways, or changing it as they went along ... they got jammed up.   They used Jedi as a tool vs making it a mini game of sorts like it was intended.   Jedi was never meant to be the marketing ploy... it was a end-game mini-game with hardships and a learning curve. (Pre-9 this is of course) -- ONCE they brought the CU and the shrines it all changed for the worse over time.
For one it was much eaiser and then all this double XP- grouping crap, no visibility.. in FACT telling you WHAT GAVE visibility.. Hell, we didn't even know that in the pre-9 days.   You die three times and your screwed in a 7/8 day span.
Jedi did not hurt the game, marketing and the Dev team did that much better. The concept was great.... a good reward and somthing to shoot for.   Because trust me, perma death and losing a skill box SUCKED... so you could not be stupid. (Not saying some were not, but most wern't).

Jedi, under the original concept as very well described by Iskar, worked.

The problem was that Jedi were made easier to get and easier to play over an extended period, which brought a very powerful class (Jedi was truly a class...you could do nothing else with a 'force sensitive toon, not even plant a harvester, in the pre-pub9 system) into the game.

The old system assured us that powerful Jedi characters would be exceedingly rare, which is appropriate for Jedi in any time period. One of the biggest problems with Jedi post pub9 was that visiblity no longer mattered to full template Jedi; they could asshat around in Theed with no fear at all. The original system gave Jedi powerful incentives not to be seen. Taking away those measures radically changed the landscape.

You could have every last account in the game with a force senstitive toon, but if they're not seen, it's not a problem at all. Most would never get beyond a few boxes before they were permadeathed away, and the player would try again with a fresh total noob toon. Visibility and saber TEF rules gave players an incentive not to be seen in the streets of Mos Eisley or Tyrenna.

But marketing wanted, desperately, Jedi to be their crutch. You may recall a few commercials in 2004 that prominently featured Jedi when Jedi were supposed to be vanishingly rare; a lot of players complained that it was giving people a false notion of what the game was about.

Well, the NGE fixed that particular problem, permanently.

NGESUCKS · August 2007

They havent listened for the last 4 years not gonna listen now. They cant do anything to jedi they havent already done hell they give it away free now and 3 of the 4 people on the server are jedi so another brilliant move on SOE'S part. How is this game still in existence? I mean seriously lol

JK-Kanosi · August 2007

Originally posted by NGESUCKS

They havent listened for the last 4 years not gonna listen now. They cant do anything to jedi they havent already done hell they give it away free now and 3 of the 4 people on the server are jedi so another brilliant move on SOE'S part. How is this game still in existence? I mean seriously lol

Actually, I think 3 out of 4 people are a Ranged profession, specifically the Commando. Jedi are gimp and has been gimp since the other professions got their expertise. Slowly, people have been trasitioning to the Commando or ranged profession of their choice. People that are still Jedi really want to be Jedi and they are not the most seen anymore. Most seen are likely Commandos. They are the big dog on the block now.

I'm not defending SWG or their Dev teams, because they suck. But you do know that this is a new Dev team don't you? Pinning SWG past crimes on this Dev team is like pinning the crimes of your ancestors on you. Best thing to do is to make your voice heard. I'm not saying resub to the game, but I am saying that you should let this new Dev team know what we really want.

moostown · August 2007

Problem with a Alpha class is everyone wants to play the alpha class and not a normal one because they feel inferior to them. This suddenly makes everyother profession useless ebcause all people will wanna do is grind up their Alpha class and make sure he's the best. So in a mmorpg you can't make anything hard enough only a select few have them and it was going to happen over time that you'll see them everywhere anyways.

Before Jedi however you focused on the professions there and it was great.

SioBabble · August 2007

Another problem with Jedi (and SWG in general) is that having "mysterious ways" of accomplishing something only works if you've got a relatively bug-free game, and SWG has never, at any time, been that. Players would find strange things going on, report the strange things as bugs, but be told it was "working as intended" on the fora and then, two weeks later, a stealth patch would be published and change the behavior previously dismissed as "working as intended".

In their zeal to not reveal possible exploits, the devs shot themselves in the foot, repeatedly, by damaging their crediblity in this way, which is why players clammored for transparency when being opague might have given us more interesting game play, but the devs misused the opacity and created distrust. The devs could not be trusted to use the desire for mystery as a means of covering up their incompetence or laziness.

levin70 · August 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Below is a link to a thread in the SWG official forums. If you are have a Station Access Pass, you can post on these forums and make yourself heard. Hopefully, these new Devs will have enough sense to listen to their player base this time.

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/posts/list.m?topic_id=417942

ROFL. $OE wouldn't listen to the myriad of awesome ideas that the playerbase came up with when it had 350k paid subscirptions and over a 70 man dev team. WTF now makes you think the devs are gonna start listening to their playerbase when they failed to ever listen before

Get a grip, nothing has changed with $OE

levin70 · August 2007

Originally posted by moostown

Problem with a Alpha class is everyone wants to play the alpha class and not a normal one because they feel inferior to them. This suddenly makes everyother profession useless ebcause all people will wanna do is grind up their Alpha class and make sure he's the best. So in a mmorpg you can't make anything hard enough only a select few have them and it was going to happen over time that you'll see them everywhere anyways.
Before Jedi however you focused on the professions there and it was great.

I'm really getting sick of this argument. Not everyone wanted to play the alpha class. Most did not want to play the alpha class WHEN IT WAS HARD. If the devs had stuck to the original vision of jedi being HARD, and instead focused on 1) bug fixes and 2) content then i really believe the swg world would be a different place today. All right, two fixes were good for Jedi - a) changing saber damage from kinetic to lightsaber as its own damage class and b) stopping jedi from wearing armor. Those were 2 good fixes. Everything else was a misplaced attempt by $OE to chase the almighty dollar through what they imagined would be increased subs by making Jedi easier to obtain for the masses.

The only rational argument against perma death was the continous problem the game had with lag and disconnects. Every other argument was BS. Finding a solution to that problem would have been far preferable to what they did instead.

I still to this day remember seing my first jedi when i was grinding in the Tusken fort back in late 2003. Hearing that buzzing sound, looking around and wondering what it was and then seeing the lightsaber round the corner still brings chills to my heart. (the guys was hunting crystals and not too long after a bh came looking for him - the system worked)

Regards

moostown · August 2007

Originally posted by levin70

Originally posted by moostown

Problem with a Alpha class is everyone wants to play the alpha class and not a normal one because they feel inferior to them. This suddenly makes everyother profession useless ebcause all people will wanna do is grind up their Alpha class and make sure he's the best. So in a mmorpg you can't make anything hard enough only a select few have them and it was going to happen over time that you'll see them everywhere anyways.
Before Jedi however you focused on the professions there and it was great.

I'm really getting sick of this argument. Not everyone wanted to play the alpha class. Most did not want to play the alpha class WHEN IT WAS HARD. If the devs had stuck to the original vision of jedi being HARD, and instead focused on 1) bug fixes and 2) content then i really believe the swg world would be a different place today. All right, two fixes were good for Jedi - a) changing saber damage from kinetic to lightsaber as its own damage class and b) stopping jedi from wearing armor. Those were 2 good fixes. Everything else was a misplaced attempt by $OE to chase the almighty dollar through what they imagined would be increased subs by making Jedi easier to obtain for the masses.

The only rational argument against perma death was the continous problem the game had with lag and disconnects. Every other argument was BS. Finding a solution to that problem would have been far preferable to what they did instead.

I still to this day remember seing my first jedi when i was grinding in the Tusken fort back in late 2003. Hearing that buzzing sound, looking around and wondering what it was and then seeing the lightsaber round the corner still brings chills to my heart. (the guys was hunting crystals and not too long after a bh came looking for him - the system worked)

Regards

Alot of people said they do not want to play Jedi and yet everyone had a Jedi and was working towards getting one : I saw lots of ALTs but in combat people always took their JEdi along and as time went by more and more started coming. All permadeath does is makes you play JEdi more because if you died 3 times then you had to grind him up all over again. The BH system hardly worked IMO because i never saw a Jedi lose unless he was a nub.

SioBabble · August 2007

The thing is, while everyone may have wanted a Jedi, making Jedi hard kept the population of visible Jedi down. Also, more than a few players had the open force sensitive slot but didn't bother to grind them up because they found it too frustrating or difficult or grindy, and went back to playing their "normie" toons most of the time.

What SOE did was make Jedi a lot easier to play, and particularly, a lot easier to play in the open, as part of their marketing plan. When I unlocked my Jedi, it was simply grindy with some care about visiblity to advance my Jedi toon. I could group without penalty in an environment that was decidedly anti-soloing, which made advancing a Jedi particularly difficult and, probably more importantly, tedious, without group vis immunity.

I have to give them a bit of credit, though...they simultaneously watered down Jedi as an Alpha class. The original idea that a full template Jedi would be able to hold of 20 elite master players, because it would be incredibly difficult to accomplish that, was abandoned as they made Jedi advancement less difficult over time.

Jedi still had to worry about being seen by non-grouped players (regardless of faction) and NPC characters, but it was no where near as nerve wracking as it was pre-pub9.

Shayde · August 2007

Only good jedi is a dead jedi.

moostown · August 2007

I think personally Jedi should not be in the game at all because it is the profession everyone wants to play when it comes to Star Wars. End of the day no matter how hard they made getting Jedi the game would move on without them and they'd just become sooo easy to unlock. I think they should have kept Jedi as they were before and instead of taking on 20 elite professions just be the same power as the other professions. However if it was me i wouldn't put them in at all.

iskar · August 2007

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Originally posted by NGESUCKS

They havent listened for the last 4 years not gonna listen now. They cant do anything to jedi they havent already done hell they give it away free now and 3 of the 4 people on the server are jedi so another brilliant move on SOE'S part. How is this game still in existence? I mean seriously lol

Actually, I think 3 out of 4 people are a Ranged profession, specifically the Commando. Jedi are gimp and has been gimp since the other professions got their expertise. Slowly, people have been trasitioning to the Commando or ranged profession of their choice. People that are still Jedi really want to be Jedi and they are not the most seen anymore. Most seen are likely Commandos. They are the big dog on the block now.

I'm not defending SWG or their Dev teams, because they suck. But you do know that this is a new Dev team don't you? Pinning SWG past crimes on this Dev team is like pinning the crimes of your ancestors on you. Best thing to do is to make your voice heard. I'm not saying resub to the game, but I am saying that you should let this new Dev team know what we really want.

FYI and not to correct you but this "NEW Dev team thing" is a lie. First off, Blix -- is not NEW in fact he helped program the NGE. So that alone makes this not a new dev team. Also , Tim Timmerman... NOT NEW... in fact Tim is one that supported the NGE and helped it launch as he defended it at the Summits. So that is another member of it "NOT NEW" Dev team.

What you could say is that this is "A dev team trying to pass as new so that they do not take the heat from all the mistakes that were made and people that are not smart enough to know they were on the dev team during the NGE and launch of it are held to blame for it". Is alot easier to say and more accurate.

Jedi was ruined beyond repair with the NGE, without a doubt. If you were at the summits you would know how the real fans felt about that. Sadly it is to late.... once they gave people a "FORCE POLE ARM" Jedi was ruined and the lore was lost so fast that even a paddy could not get his robe on fast enough.

Holding the current Dev team and managment responsible is fair and just... if you think that everyone is new and its different then you better read up on your facts fast... because alot of the people there are the ones that were part and supported the NGE... launch.. from Smedley on down.

What they have not learned is what to listen for, what the game was, what it should have been. AGAIN... THIS IS NOT A ENTIRELY NEW DEV TEAM.

Some of the members were here and talked the crap when the NGE hit... trust me Blix and a few more of them sure talked crap when they had a chance to do so in front of us. At the NGE failure summits.

Look at it like this, we all warned them, we all pleaded to them, we all begged them, we told them in detail what would happen, we predicted to be the worse MMO and lose 90% of its population... (THESE PEOPLE) assumed they were right and we were wrong and stupid.

So far I think it's Player base 1 -- Dev team 0 . Shiny Nickels and jargon of "NEW" is pretty much bullshit right now.

iskar · August 2007

Originally posted by moostown

Problem with a Alpha class is everyone wants to play the alpha class and not a normal one because they feel inferior to them. This suddenly makes everyother profession useless ebcause all people will wanna do is grind up their Alpha class and make sure he's the best. So in a mmorpg you can't make anything hard enough only a select few have them and it was going to happen over time that you'll see them everywhere anyways.
Before Jedi however you focused on the professions there and it was great.

Risk vs Reward.

See, while I see what your saying the game at the time did much better. Again, skill loss and Permadeath -- worked.

I know you do not understand it, or you might not say what you did. IF YOU think that spending money, grinding up a toon that was hard to grind in the first place was not a challenge, or better yet somthing to shoot for then your wrong.

Again, if they had made it harder as it went along that might have changed this. TEFS, Bounties and just trying to travel was hard enough.

Now then, I HAD TO PLAY MY MAIN, just to fund my Jedi... that is the kicker, you could NOT play your Jedi 24/7 in the old system back then due to visibility and the risk of losing a box that took you two weeks to earn.

People tend to forget that it was a Alpha class with a crap load of risks. AND THERE were BHs that granted "They had to know" what they were doing to take you down. But alot did --- TRUST ME on that one.

It was more complex, it was not easy, it was not cheap, it was not stupid.

What it became is much much much much worse. (I wont even get into the feel, animations, sound, look) -- that all got ruined too.

ormstunga · August 2007

Originally posted by moostown

Alot of people said they do not want to play Jedi and yet everyone had a Jedi and was working towards getting one : I saw lots of ALTs but in combat people always took their JEdi along and as time went by more and more started coming. All permadeath does is makes you play JEdi more because if you died 3 times then you had to grind him up all over again. The BH system hardly worked IMO because i never saw a Jedi lose unless he was a nub.

nub or not, there were so many exploits available to jedi to escape a BH encounter is makes me laugh just thinking about it... I totally understand why most BHs I talked to either quit/swapped prof/didnt hunt jedi anymore etc... or ye even grinded one themselves. We had maybe 4-5 really hardcore BHs on the server putting in alot of time hunting Jedi, but 4-5 isnt really enough when you got a thousand peeps lvling padawans

iskar · August 2007

Originally posted by ormstunga

Originally posted by moostown

Alot of people said they do not want to play Jedi and yet everyone had a Jedi and was working towards getting one : I saw lots of ALTs but in combat people always took their JEdi along and as time went by more and more started coming. All permadeath does is makes you play JEdi more because if you died 3 times then you had to grind him up all over again. The BH system hardly worked IMO because i never saw a Jedi lose unless he was a nub.

nub or not, there were so many exploits available to jedi to escape a BH encounter is makes me laugh just thinking about it... I totally understand why most BHs I talked to either quit/swapped prof/didnt hunt jedi anymore etc... or ye even grinded one themselves. We had maybe 4-5 really hardcore BHs on the server putting in alot of time hunting Jedi, but 4-5 isnt really enough when you got a thousand peeps lvling padawans

Yeah but that perma death made you play more is kinda silly...

If you did you had 0 Skills and a Durni could kill you.

But yeah two different times... pre-9 was alot different then the CU Jedi thats for sure.

Once you hit a saber or used on power being TEFd got you killed faster then you could spit.

ormstunga · August 2007

People tend to forget that it was a Alpha class with a crap load of risks. AND THERE were BHs that granted "They had to know" what they were doing to take you down. But alot did --- TRUST ME on that one.

CM/bh was my favourite... bought the best poisons on the server with a BH bud for 40mil something, was alot on Chimaera back then at least I remember. A couple of seconds hit that mindbar hard... then just spam eyeshot (well not just, there was always the chase, the anticipation, predicting his 'skills', eating the right foods etc, alot of preparation basically). They were usually dead before they could hammer FR haha. The rush from BH vs Jedi encounters is the best I've had in any game... most jedi I talked to afterwards said the same (ofc some were really really mad but hey)

ormstunga · August 2007

Originally posted by iskar

Yeah but that perma death made you play more is kinda silly...

If you did you had 0 Skills and a Durni could kill you.
But yeah two different times... pre-9 was alot different then the CU Jedi thats for sure.

Once you hit a saber or used on power being TEFd got you killed faster then you could spit.

I quit first day of CU, anyone could see it had *FAIL* written all over it...

*edit* ye perma death sucked, and ofc it didnt make ppl play more lol, would only make me mad and thinking about playing less tbh haha

NGESUCKS · August 2007

Theyve gone through dozens of dev teams none of them do much but try to clone wow all with the same result. This new team doesnt impress me much either to be honest its just more rehashed poorly done bs. As for what i want they cant do it if i wanted to play wow in the first place i would have done so not play poorly done version of it or a star wars mod of it. As for jedi 9 out 10 people will choose to be jedi as for the commando and ranged proffesions is the big dog well thats only temporary there will always be a patch that makes one proffesion the big dog untill the nextch and so on and so on. As for telling them anything i gave up on that 3 years ago. You can have the best Devs in the business but when you got idiots like Julio Torress and Smed running the game you will always have to deal with the motto this is whats best for you attitude not the customer comes first or that the customer is always right. I always found it interesting to that when u do tell them what u want 9 out of 10 times they tell you oh that cant be done lol for instance at the comic con i talked to some them direct ly down there and they say oh that cant be done or its not viable and then they have a pre-cu demo running when NGE is out LMAO ill never forget that. talk about stupidity they should of just run a WOW ttrailer and said heres the star wars version.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

Actually, I think 3 out of 4 people are a Ranged profession, specifically the Commando. Jedi are gimp and has been gimp since the other professions got their expertise. Slowly, people have been trasitioning to the Commando or ranged profession of their choice. People that are still Jedi really want to be Jedi and they are not the most seen anymore. Most seen are likely Commandos. They are the big dog on the block now.
I'm not defending SWG or their Dev teams, because they suck. But you do know that this is a new Dev team don't you? Pinning SWG past crimes on this Dev team is like pinning the crimes of your ancestors on you. Best thing to do is to make your voice heard. I'm not saying resub to the game, but I am saying that you should let this new Dev team know what we really want.

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