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class action lawsuit.... whos in?
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one thing you have to remeber LAWS are written to protect corporations,not the people.here some examples:
if a bank steal your money you have 60 days to find it out.if they give you to much they have forever to take it back.
if you sign a contact that they put in the wrong figures your screwed,if a company does they can say clerical error and have it redone.
i for one try to play a game in beta,if not wait till they have a free trail.causei am sick and tired of buying piece of crap games.
Too bad that refers to the RATING of the game and not the game itself. Man I wish you people could learn that. Its in the EULA that they can change the game at anytime. The quote from the back of the box is about the rating.
And for you people out there who seem to think your lawyers all of a sudden. The EULA is a contract. And contracts can be lost. There is no such thing as a perfect contract.
I was so mad about the NGE I talked to my attorney at length about it. Real simple thing here. It all boils down to the disposition of the judge. You can have the most perfect civil case in the world but go before a judge with a grudge or in a bad mood and you will lose. You can have the worst case imagineable with more holes then a block of swiss cheese but go before a sympathetic judge and you will win.
I didnt file a case because I had time to calm. Plus, at the time, there were several cases against SOE regarding SWG.
Kai
...is very different from "Your Gameplay me be reduced to include only 20% of the game you bought".or how about..."Your Profession may be removed after you buy the next expansion which was advertised directly to your profession".
or..."That Shiny new Mercedes you bought will be converted to a Hyundai when parked in a garage".
Frankly im shocked (and disappointed) this wasnt carried through in early '06.
it was immoral, unethical, and ILLEGAL. unfortunately SOE has better lawyers than us....
SWG ADDICT...clean since the NGE
lol
Stop being silly, people. If you think you wasted your time playing SWG, you'll learn what a true waste of time is when you attempt to sue Sony with no legitimate grounds whatsoever. Grow up and devote your energies to something that's actually beneficial to humanity.
Here's the thing, 'if' (and that if is a long shot btw) you where able to take SOE to court over SWG, and most likely you would have to take LA to court as well, as they do have over all say in what go's into SWG... Still if you took SOE to Court you would have SOE bring up the following things.
First off they would say that the game 'does' change all the time. They can say the NGE was just like any Patch they have done before the NGE. Not only that but the Player Base was told about the change ahead of time (and believe me SOE and LA's legal teams most likely checked the laws to see how soon they could do it legally.) so unless you where in a cave for 2 weeks, all they have to say is "We did give the Player Base notice about the change."
Then there's the whole idea to take them to Court on False Advertising, another case that well wouldn't be won.
First off SOE 'did' come out with a brand new box for the NGE game. The old boxes for Empire Divided well you really couldn't find any of them anymore. And unless you did paid for a copy of Empire Divided 'when' the NGE came out all SOE will say is "We had new copy's of the game on the market." Really all a Court would do is tell SOE and LA to refund your money 'IF' you had gotten it at the time of the NGE. Then there is the 'website' I don't know if anyone remembers but someone did claim they could take SOE to Court for it, but there was a Star Wars Empire Divided website up and running that showed some screen shots and showed Marksman, Brawler, namely the 5 core classes. Ahhhh but you see SOE had nothing to do with that website, that was LA. And LA did take it down later on I believe, infact not too long after.
Then there is the whole Trials of Obi-Wan thing. The main claim is SOE showed items in ToOW that where not in game. What's funny is those ideas (the BE/Tamer Rings) where in the game and dropping, they where just useless. Not only that well there are tons of MMO's on the market that show off things that just don't make it into the game, or the art files are in the game they just haven't used them yet. Ultima Online had a TON of Art Files that never got used in the game. SWG has a few as well, the Gungan City on Naboo, the Delta-7 Jedi Starfighter, hell some of the new Weapons they showed off for the CU didn't get used untill later. The one 'mini-gun' looking Carbine just got put in as a GCW Reward. So sadly they just need to bring up that the 'item' was in the game. Good by lawsuit on that...
Now really saying that the whole NGE is like the lawsuit over Coffee that 'was' too hot is kinda insane. First off the NGE did NOT harm someone's body in any shape or form. And that lawsuit was about someone getting badly burned from the Coffee, and believe me getting a bad burn is NOT funny or something to use when talking about the NGE. Depending on the Burn your skin can be damaged for the rest of your life. Depending on where you got burned it can do damage to motor skills if you where burned on the Hands, Arms, even Legs. Also there is the pain from the Burn, some people can have pain for their whole life after getting burned. We're talking you take pain killers everday.
Claiming the whole NGE is like a woman getting burned by really hot Coffee, is nothing alike.
Is knowingly releasing an unfinished product without giving the customer knowledge that is unfinished, then lying to your customer by telling them that "bugs" are the reason they cant access content they paid for, when the truth is the content isnt there yet legal? And that the subscription fees your paying arent going towards new content, or new investment in the game, but to finish content that you already paid for. Content that was told to be included in purchase of the product. I cant see how me clicking the accept button nullifies all of my rights as a consumer, nor how this could be seen as legal in any other industry. I would not want to see SOE sued over this though I personally think they could be. Simply because that would be too easy for them. Knowing that they have to look themselves in the mirror every day is well enough for me. And by "they" i mean the greedy asses involved...they know who they are. Alot of people are trying to downplay what was done as no big deal. It was. When you have devs willing to give up their jobs rather than partake in this, and others refusing to partake even when threatened with termination, it isnt some stupid change to some stupid video game.
Now if they wanna drop all the secrecy and let the truth be known about the whole thing, that might change many peoples opinions, but thats not gonna happen, so none of this so called "non-sense" is gonna stop either.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
MEGA ROFL
They have sayd it 100's of times before, THEY CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.. and if they make it the way you want, than theres tons of people doing the same you do now..
No one forcing you to play, so why have you stayed in the game so long if you think it waste of time and money?
what you saying is the same as, i wanna lawsuit mcdonalds because i eated up a big mac, but the big mac didnt look 100% like on the poster & didnt taste like a Dobbel Wopper from Burger King!
MEGA ROFL
They have sayd it 100's of times before, THEY CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.. and if they make it the way you want, than theres tons of people doing the same you do now..
No one forcing you to play, so why have you stayed in the game so long if you think it waste of time and money?
what you saying is the same as, i wanna lawsuit mcdonalds because i eated up a big mac, but the big mac didnt look 100% like on the poster & didnt taste like a Dobbel Wopper from Burger King!
OMG guys..you know what..this guys right. Anyone who has any ill-will towards SOE should read this analogy. It sheds a whole new light on the subject that we never even thought about. It makes such perfect sense. Thank you and Im sorry for any post that may have made anyone at SOE uncomfortable or wasted their valuable time reading. Im mean a Dobbel Wopper...my hate must have surely blinded me to not even imagine such simple wisdom. Im so ashamed now.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
The "bait-and-switch" was actually illegal. We probably could have done a class action back then and won... Now... Why bother? Their destroyed reputation has cost them far more than some silly suit can...
hehe.. Double Whopper, yeah i know i miss-spelled it.. we just say it the outher way, where i come from.
edit: not good in english grammer these days, but im not english speaking.. so i have my exuse
Your english was fine..i understood it perfectly. Your analogy is what I was referring to. Which I understood as well..its just that there are so many different analogies people use here..hardly any make any sense or have to do with what actually occured. People start making analogies to counter analogies and you end up at burger king some how. All in fun though...never take me seriously.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
MEGA ROFL
They have sayd it 100's of times before, THEY CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.. and if they make it the way you want, than theres tons of people doing the same you do now..
No one forcing you to play, so why have you stayed in the game so long if you think it waste of time and money?
what you saying is the same as, i wanna lawsuit mcdonalds because i eated up a big mac, but the big mac didnt look 100% like on the poster & didnt taste like a Dobbel Wopper from Burger King!
OMG guys..you know what..this guys right. Anyone who has any ill-will towards SOE should read this analogy. It sheds a whole new light on the subject that we never even thought about. It makes such perfect sense. Thank you and Im sorry for any post that may have made anyone at SOE uncomfortable or wasted their valuable time reading. Im mean a Dobbel Wopper...my hate must have surely blinded me to not even imagine such simple wisdom. Im so ashamed now.
Actually tthat a poor comparison to SWG. A better one would be....You go to McDs and ordera big mac. They hand you the buns with just some mayo on them and tell you the rest will come in awhile. So you sit and wait and over the next two hours they bring you pieces of the big mac. Then they come out with a plain hamburger, toss it in front of you, take away the still incomplete big mac, and tell you to eat it instead. You tell them you ordered a big mac but they tell you this plain hamburger is better and to eat it. You say you will leave if you dont get your big mac and they say good because the hamburgers attract younger customers who dont complain.
There is a better analogy so SWG.
Kai
+
TERMS OF USE FOR STAR WARS GALAXIES™: AN EMPIRE DIVIDED™ http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/en_US/players/content.vm?page=Policies%20Eula&resource=tos
=
End of discussion
MEGA ROFL
They have sayd it 100's of times before, THEY CANT MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.. and if they make it the way you want, than theres tons of people doing the same you do now..
No one forcing you to play, so why have you stayed in the game so long if you think it waste of time and money?
what you saying is the same as, i wanna lawsuit mcdonalds because i eated up a big mac, but the big mac didnt look 100% like on the poster & didnt taste like a Dobbel Wopper from Burger King!
OMG guys..you know what..this guys right. Anyone who has any ill-will towards SOE should read this analogy. It sheds a whole new light on the subject that we never even thought about. It makes such perfect sense. Thank you and Im sorry for any post that may have made anyone at SOE uncomfortable or wasted their valuable time reading. Im mean a Dobbel Wopper...my hate must have surely blinded me to not even imagine such simple wisdom. Im so ashamed now.
Actually tthat a poor comparison to SWG. A better one would be....You go to McDs and ordera big mac. They hand you the buns with just some mayo on them and tell you the rest will come in awhile. So you sit and wait and over the next two hours they bring you pieces of the big mac. Then they come out with a plain hamburger, toss it in front of you, take away the still incomplete big mac, and tell you to eat it instead. You tell them you ordered a big mac but they tell you this plain hamburger is better and to eat it. You say you will leave if you dont get your big mac and they say good because the hamburgers attract younger customers who dont complain.
There is a better analogy so SWG.
Kai
that made absolutly no sense what so ever!
everyone had a different mind on what needed to be fixed.. if they fixed everything everyone want. than they could just take the game in the trash.. and call it a night.. they did maby a unpopular decission (respect, as long as they can stick to it..)
Only bad thing is that the feeling of being Fatigued, but that happens in every mmo game..
it sayd that "the game may change during gameplay" commerizalised mmo's is all about money.. what the game has to offer is simply there job to deside, our "job" is to play the game and pay them (if we deside to play the game in the first place)..
soe tryes to dominate "yes they do".. but why should we stop playing games from a company just because they got a game you dont like? to be honest im not a big fan of LucasArts anymore, because they canceled Full Throttle 2 & the rest of the adventure games (and yes they made the best adventure games in history imo) ..and instead only focused on starwars..
but every company got bad games (the games you love, outhers may hate) does that mean we all gonna stop playing games?
i think its time we begin to call a shovel a Shovel.
What is more effective than a lawsuit is to simply boycott SOE and LAE products.
Sure they do have some good games and upcoming ones, but there are also other good games out there as well.
Vote and voice with your buying power.
SOE has felt the loss.
And that is why...
Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.
That's for a judge to decide, not you.
Eventually yes..we will stop playing games and move on to the next form of enterainment. MMo's are marketing tools for crap we dont want..at least thats the future of MMO's from the major players. They will ruin the industry like every other form of entertainment. All of which are on the steady decline..except video games.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
- Firstly, a court would have to be persuaded that, while accepting that SOE had the right to make changes to the game bought by the consumers, SOE abused this right by making such a deep, fundamental change that the nature of the game decisively changed from that originally bought by the consumer without consultation of and reference to that consumer. Like, for example, taking in your Ford Capri to the shop for an MOT and some basic repairs and, when you come to pick it up, you find the mechanics have 'repaired' it so radically, it's become a Morris Minor.
- Secondly, you would have to convince a court that the time you spent playing the game was actually an investment for consideration (consideration - money or value that you dervied from a mutual contract with SOE). That might be easier than one thinks since we all know - and SOE never made any bones about - the massive timesink SWG was. I personally ground for two years to bring my Jedi up to full template. There are currently some interesting articles on the Web by psychologists arguing that much of every MMO is regarded by users as 'work' - 'work' regarded by users as worthwhile because they will be rewarded by some great new item, new power or new status. For SOE to strip players of these 'rewards' might be seen as arbitrary and unreasonable.
- Thirdly, you probably could get the Court to strike out the ELA quite easily. Such EULAs have very little standing in real law - as many cases in the car industry show - and look and sound a lot more fearsome than they really are. The SWG EULA, after all, only comes into operation AFTER you have already bought the product and opened an account. In British law, such a 'blind contract' would be quickly struck down and, I am guessing, in US law too.
- Fourthly, time and injury. Here are the real hurdles. Time is a factor. A Judge would ask - why bring the suit now and not immediately after the NGE was brought in? He would also ask about injury; is the hurt - monetary, emotional, time - suffered by all those players whose playing time was negated by the NGE of sufficient severity to warrant a case? You would have to have good answers to those questions before a judge would allow the case to proceed.
Honestly, I think the idea of a class action suit is silly and the main argument ultimately is did you make an investment or did you pay for a consumable (service). Many veterans here obviously believe they have made an investment while SOE would take the stance that it was a consumable service that they were offering at the time and were well within their bounds to alter that service.
I happen to see it as a consumable like cell phone service or a cable tv/satellite subscription. I paid for one month and got the WB for that month. Next month they consolidated the WB and UPN into one station because that's what the networks pushed for. I think I can safely argue that I should get that second month's subscription fee back as well as any other subscription fees I paid up front but I used month 1, I saw and loved Angel (and was very pissed they cancelled it a season early) but that doesn't mean I get that first month's subscription fee back. I used it, I consumed it (even though I was heavily invested in Angel and the outcome of that series.)
I see the mmo service the exact same way. You typically pay an activation fee and and then periodic payments even though the programming may change.
- Firstly, a court would have to be persuaded that, while accepting that SOE had the right to make changes to the game bought by the consumers, SOE abused this right by making such a deep, fundamental change that the nature of the game decisively changed from that originally bought by the consumer without consultation of and reference to that consumer. Like, for example, taking in your Ford Capri to the shop for an MOT and some basic repairs and, when you come to pick it up, you find the mechanics have 'repaired' it so radically, it's become a Morris Minor.
- Secondly, you would have to convince a court that the time you spent playing the game was actually an investment for consideration (consideration - money or value that you dervied from a mutual contract with SOE). That might be easier than one thinks since we all know - and SOE never made any bones about - the massive timesink SWG was. I personally ground for two years to bring my Jedi up to full template. There are currently some interesting articles on the Web by psychologists arguing that much of every MMO is regarded by users as 'work' - 'work' regarded by users as worthwhile because they will be rewarded by some great new item, new power or new status. For SOE to strip players of these 'rewards' might be seen as arbitrary and unreasonable.
- Thirdly, you probably could get the Court to strike out the ELA quite easily. Such EULAs have very little standing in real law - as many cases in the car industry show - and look and sound a lot more fearsome than they really are. The SWG EULA, after all, only comes into operation AFTER you have already bought the product and opened an account. In British law, such a 'blind contract' would be quickly struck down and, I am guessing, in US law too.
- Fourthly, time and injury. Here are the real hurdles. Time is a factor. A Judge would ask - why bring the suit now and not immediately after the NGE was brought in? He would also ask about injury; is the hurt - monetary, emotional, time - suffered by all those players whose playing time was negated by the NGE of sufficient severity to warrant a case? You would have to have good answers to those questions before a judge would allow the case to proceed.
Thank you Councelor for the concurring opinion. I also agree whole heartedly with your opinions and since US Law is patterned after British Law, most of what can happen there can happen here also. It is interesting to note that CA has some of the most stringent consumer protection law on the books ATM. CA. is the stated venue in SOE's EULA.
OK. I had the great privilage of speaking with an old friend today who happens to be 1 of the best, (past President of the San Diego Bar Assoc., wrote up as The Best Contracts and Real Estate Atty. in the County of San Diego, and has several accounts of Case Law to his credit) if not THE best, contracts Atty, in San Diego CA. I have had the privilage of working with this firm on many cases. We discussed this and it looks like a case is makeable. He would be interested. I am sending him the EULA, the email from SOE that disclaims refunds,( they did this to my Son after C6 Combat Downgrade) LOL, and pertinant info. He will review and obtain co-council that has direct knowledge of class suits. After this review, I will post more.
OP, you may actually have gotten something started.
(By the way, written contracts, in CA., have a 4 year statute. That means CU, NGE, and C6 Combat Downgrade changes are actionable.)
- Firstly, a court would have to be persuaded that, while accepting that SOE had the right to make changes to the game bought by the consumers, SOE abused this right by making such a deep, fundamental change that the nature of the game decisively changed from that originally bought by the consumer without consultation of and reference to that consumer. Like, for example, taking in your Ford Capri to the shop for an MOT and some basic repairs and, when you come to pick it up, you find the mechanics have 'repaired' it so radically, it's become a Morris Minor.
- Secondly, you would have to convince a court that the time you spent playing the game was actually an investment for consideration (consideration - money or value that you dervied from a mutual contract with SOE). That might be easier than one thinks since we all know - and SOE never made any bones about - the massive timesink SWG was. I personally ground for two years to bring my Jedi up to full template. There are currently some interesting articles on the Web by psychologists arguing that much of every MMO is regarded by users as 'work' - 'work' regarded by users as worthwhile because they will be rewarded by some great new item, new power or new status. For SOE to strip players of these 'rewards' might be seen as arbitrary and unreasonable.
- Thirdly, you probably could get the Court to strike out the ELA quite easily. Such EULAs have very little standing in real law - as many cases in the car industry show - and look and sound a lot more fearsome than they really are. The SWG EULA, after all, only comes into operation AFTER you have already bought the product and opened an account. In British law, such a 'blind contract' would be quickly struck down and, I am guessing, in US law too.
- Fourthly, time and injury. Here are the real hurdles. Time is a factor. A Judge would ask - why bring the suit now and not immediately after the NGE was brought in? He would also ask about injury; is the hurt - monetary, emotional, time - suffered by all those players whose playing time was negated by the NGE of sufficient severity to warrant a case? You would have to have good answers to those questions before a judge would allow the case to proceed.
Doesnt SOE agree that in game items hold a value. They have RMT in eq2 or whatever it is. So wouldnt making items in swg less valuable due to unwanted changes warrant "damages". They cant say they dont see these items as holding value when in eq2 they help trade of these items for real money so appearently they do. I DO NOT think suing SOE is right, just an interesting debate.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
- Firstly, a court would have to be persuaded that, while accepting that SOE had the right to make changes to the game bought by the consumers, SOE abused this right by making such a deep, fundamental change that the nature of the game decisively changed from that originally bought by the consumer without consultation of and reference to that consumer. Like, for example, taking in your Ford Capri to the shop for an MOT and some basic repairs and, when you come to pick it up, you find the mechanics have 'repaired' it so radically, it's become a Morris Minor.
- Secondly, you would have to convince a court that the time you spent playing the game was actually an investment for consideration (consideration - money or value that you dervied from a mutual contract with SOE). That might be easier than one thinks since we all know - and SOE never made any bones about - the massive timesink SWG was. I personally ground for two years to bring my Jedi up to full template. There are currently some interesting articles on the Web by psychologists arguing that much of every MMO is regarded by users as 'work' - 'work' regarded by users as worthwhile because they will be rewarded by some great new item, new power or new status. For SOE to strip players of these 'rewards' might be seen as arbitrary and unreasonable.
- Thirdly, you probably could get the Court to strike out the ELA quite easily. Such EULAs have very little standing in real law - as many cases in the car industry show - and look and sound a lot more fearsome than they really are. The SWG EULA, after all, only comes into operation AFTER you have already bought the product and opened an account. In British law, such a 'blind contract' would be quickly struck down and, I am guessing, in US law too.
- Fourthly, time and injury. Here are the real hurdles. Time is a factor. A Judge would ask - why bring the suit now and not immediately after the NGE was brought in? He would also ask about injury; is the hurt - monetary, emotional, time - suffered by all those players whose playing time was negated by the NGE of sufficient severity to warrant a case? You would have to have good answers to those questions before a judge would allow the case to proceed.
Thank you Councelor for the concurring opinion. I also agree whole heartedly with your opinions and since US Law is patterned after British Law, most of what can happen there can happen here also. It is interesting to note that CA has some of the most stringent consumer protection law on the books ATM. CA. is the stated venue in SOE's EULA.
OK. I had the great privilage of speaking with an old friend today who happens to be 1 of the best, (past President of the San Diego Bar Assoc., wrote up as The Best Contracts and Real Estate Atty. in the County of San Diego, and has several accounts of Case Law to his credit) if not THE best, contracts Atty, in San Diego CA. I have had the privilage of working with this firm on many cases. We discussed this and it looks like a case is makeable. He would be interested. I am sending him the EULA, the email from SOE that disclaims refunds,( they did this to my Son after C6 Combat Downgrade) LOL, and pertinant info. He will review and obtain co-council that has direct knowledge of class suits. After this review, I will post more.
OP, you may actually have gotten something started.
(By the way, written contracts, in CA., have a 4 year statute. That means CU, NGE, and C6 Combat Downgrade changes are actionable.)
So what you are saying is that the OP could Sue SOE and this case is a Makeable.If this is true then we should all sue SOE for wasting our time and get our money back and if they lose too much money maybe they will shut down galaxies.
SOE no more wasted your time and money than any other entertainment based distraction.
SOE did not make you log in and they didnt make you type in your credit card # nor did they force you to provide an expiration date.
I agree you dont need to tell us why god knows we are all sick of it.
What is it with you guys?Do you just think about this everyday or something?
It was a game nothing more let it go.The fact of the matter is that people are still playing it and having fun.SOE has not rolled back the servers its been over 2 years.They are not going to.
You did not own your character SOE did.
Just stop already it is even worse than pathetic.
What is your physical limit?
SOE no more wasted your time and money than any other entertainment based distraction. Unless your talking about your time or your money that statement is irrelevent unless you can see into the hearts and minds of others. The debate is whether time and money spent holds any value. Care to give your legal opinion here on a video game forum?
SOE did not make you log in and they didnt make you type in your credit card # nor did they force you to provide an expiration date. In order to gain access to the content we purchased they did. Are you saying they didnt hold a gun to our heads and make us?
I agree you dont need to tell us why god knows we are all sick of it. yet you come here of al places and post. . Maybe try not to click on posts about SOE. And do you speak for others when you say WE?
What is it with you guys?Do you just think about this everyday or something? no, just when someone makes a new topic, then we BS about it same as every forum. Like a post about a WOW clone. A million of em. People still debate in the post though. Since your interested in "whats with" people here.
It was a game nothing more let it go.The fact of the matter is that people are still playing it and having fun.SOE has not rolled back the servers its been over 2 years.They are not going to. really? Thanks for stopping in to let us know, we might have missed the thousand other posts saying that. We know. No roll back. We got it. Doesnt change the fact that we talk about what we would want from a starwars MMO in a starwars mmo forum..one dedicated to those people in particular who liked the old version. Im sorry it bothers you. Have you tried just letting it go already? Its been two years yet these post still affect you. Its just a forum. Going outside and enjoying life seems to be the going advice around here.
You did not own your character SOE did. I think LA owns all starwars IP. Or do you mean the bits of data? We owned the game we purchased of coarse. You think SOE can change the game we purchased without our consent i assume. You are probably right. Would you like to join the debate..offer some legal insight?
Just stop already it is even worse than pathetic. Again, maybe you should try just letting it go already. Soe post stopping are as likely as a roll-back. Accept it and move on. Two years now and you still want it to stop, it wont. Let it go.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.