Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
class action lawsuit.... whos in?
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Do I need to c/p my last post? Or type slower or add more spaces or something? Because you all just aren't getting it.
Classic SWG > CUNGE
This post is stupid! BUMP!!!
You want to get back at them. Don't play or buy their products, you are paying their bills. But they are still in bussniss so i guess they are not pissing everyone off..?
Its really very simple. If a company (game developer or otherwise) is not delivering what you expect than you terminate your relationship with that company. The punishment is the loss of revenue from your subscription.
If you think that belaboring the point on this or any other message board is going to bring some sort of "justice" you are quite simply wrong.
No kidding. This is ridiculous. Its a bloody game. Get over it.
If it was just a game then SOE would be running it for free.
Now that is a great point. (note the sarcasm)
Actually, I thought it was a great point. I thought it was insightful and poignant, and your attempt at sarcasm was ineffectual and dismissive to the context in which is was written.
No kidding. This is ridiculous. Its a bloody game. Get over it.
If it was just a game then SOE would be running it for free.
Now that is a great point. (note the sarcasm)
Actually, I thought it was a great point. I thought it was insightful and poignant, and your attempt at sarcasm was ineffectual and dismissive to the context in which is was written.
I admit to the dismissive part. I must admit that I find most of my posts insightful and poignant as well but I am sure others might disagree.No kidding. This is ridiculous. Its a bloody game. Get over it.
If it was just a game then SOE would be running it for free.
Now that is a great point. (note the sarcasm)
Actually, I thought it was a great point. I thought it was insightful and poignant, and your attempt at sarcasm was ineffectual and dismissive to the context in which is was written.
I admit to the dismissive part. I must admit that I find most of my posts insightful and poignant as well but I am sure others might disagree.Could you then explain to me how your response is poignant and insightful, rather then just antagonistic?
No kidding. This is ridiculous. Its a bloody game. Get over it.
If it was just a game then SOE would be running it for free.
Now that is a great point. (note the sarcasm)
Actually, I thought it was a great point. I thought it was insightful and poignant, and your attempt at sarcasm was ineffectual and dismissive to the context in which is was written.
I admit to the dismissive part. I must admit that I find most of my posts insightful and poignant as well but I am sure others might disagree.Could you then explain to me how your response is poignant and insightful, rather then just antagonistic?
I would not say antagonistic, just blunt.I had no intension (and usually don't) of being anything but.
This will be my last reply to this post as I don't wish to suck anyone else in. So the last word is yours. Make it count.
Still waiting for evidence of the lawsuit... what is taking you guys so long... I mean if you REALLY are this passionate about sticking it to SOE you should already be talking to a lawyer... If you have not then your just throwing temper tantrums years after any gave a crap about SWG.
It is time to put up or shut up. Post a picture of the filed papers or you have lost all credibility on these boards.
Frankly your arguments are baseless in law and you have no ground to stand on. Bait and switch is classic... You could not prove bait and switch if you had the corpse of Johnny Cokrin. If we use the same childish logic... SOE and LA should sue you guys for extortion... I mean you're threatening a frivolous law suit if they do not comply to your demands... sounds like extortion to me.
"Unlawful exaction of money or property through intimidation or undue exercise of authority. It may include threats of physical harm, criminal prosecution, or public exposure. Some forms of threat, especially those made in writing, are occasionally singled out for separate statutory treatment as blackmail."
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
If bought windows xp..installed it. Worked ok for years. Downloaded an update for it that said it would make it better and it changed it to windows 95 would you say get over it its just an Operating system. I know its not the same thing really...but they are a business and we are consumers. the fact that its a game is irrelevent. Why do people get upset about discussing their rights? I DONT want or think SOE should be sued. However, I think is wise to educate ourselves for the future. If companies know their customers know their rights, they're less likely to to act in unethical ways.
The "it's a bloody game get over it" position is really entirely missing the point. It's about a service that was advertised, money was taken for the service advertised, and a different service was provided. That sums up the Trials of Obiwan fiasco. Saying "it's a bloody game" suggests that someone lost a game of on-line tic tac toe, and now they can't let it go. That's not what all the "fuss" is about. This is about a company knowlingly misleading consumers for the purpose of getting their cash. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, check out the thread that lists all the ways people felt mislead by SOE.
Also, comparing what happened in SWG to other games' nerfs suggests that you really don't know what happened with SWG. Nerfs to balance professions occured plenty in SWG. This was not the cause of the outcry. SWG also changed over time like other games (e.g. the addition of vehicles, and the space expansion etc.). This was also fine, and was not the cause of the outcry. If SWG did what other games do routinely--that is balance professions, add content, improve game-function, add new animations etc., there would have been no outcry. (Incidently this is what people reasonably expect when they read the EULA that talks about SOE making changes to the game over time.)
The outcry occured when more than 20 professions were deleted, quest progress was deleted (along with years of progress), animations were deleted, combat was made non-functional (NGE bugs), movement was made non-functional (NGE bugs), and even chat was rendered non-functional (NGE bug borked chat and movement all at once); AND when SOE advertised an expansion with features that they knew they were deleting. Comparing this to other games' balance nerfs or addtions over time is really unjustifiable.
Having said all of that, I personally felt satisfied after my correspondence with SOE staff and management, and my decision to not purchase any more of their goods and services. Yup, I'm good. Moved on, feel happy inside etc. etc..
Others, however, think that SOE should be held accountable by the laws that protect consumers from misrepresentation and other unethical business practices. I respect that. I can't find any reason to put these folks down. If they want to stand up for themselves and appeal to the law, more power to them. If they ever get their day in court, I wish them success.
I'm also pretty sure that this forum was set up for them to come and share their thoughts and feelings. They shouldn't be insulted for doing so.
So we're supposed to believe that people discussing consumer rights and possible legal options are "childish," "frivolous," not credible, and guilty of "extortion" or "blackmail." Wow that's some pretty strong manipulation there. I guess they're supposed to feel so stupid or frightened by your accusations of extortion that they should just be quiet. That seems to be the intention of your post--to silence people. Sorry, that' s not going to work.
In contrast to your point of view, I see nothing wrong with people talking about their rights as consumers, discussing whether or not those have been violated, and thinking about possible legal options. There's nothing childish or criminal about that at all in my mind, and I appreciate that this forum was set up for people to discuss their thoughts.
You also may notice that people talk about other ways they've made peace with the SWG situation. I like to hear how different people have attempted to come to grips with this situation, or how they are still trying to do that. I find that kind of dialogue respectful and informative. In fact some of the exchanges in this forum helped me to feel better about things and get past some of the hurt and frustration.
What part of STFU and GTFO did you not understand?
Classic SWG > CUNGE
Oh geez, I can see it now:
1. Plaintiffs bring this action for damages, restitution, and injunctive relief. As alleged in more detail below, Sony Online Entertainment ("SOE") has made misrepresentations and concealed material information in the marketing, advertising, sale and servicing of its Star Wars Galaxies virtual-life software. Star Wars Galaxies was sold as an online role-playing game that provided its subscribers with a replacement life and the ability to lord over casual players with Jedi playable characters ("PCs")...
It's one thing to put cheaply-built, defective intake manifolds into a Chevrolet sedan, or to modify your mortgage policy based on race or religion, but to modify the gameplay experience of an MMORPG? Get outta here.
Even if a fledgling young plaintiffs attorney were to want to take the case as a roll of the dice, class action lawsuits are not the kind of case that just any attorney is allowed to take. I'm not a Rule 23 expert by any means, but as far as I know, you need a court's approval before handling a large class action.* Class actions are handed to experienced firms. Best of luck, but I think this thread is pretty silly. Waiting two years doesn't help, either!
Edit:
Rule 23(g)(C)(i) --> In appointing class counsel, the court must consider:
If you need group therapy over a game you should not play them. It is a GAME! You need to get over yourselves thinking your hobby time has value. You chose to play the game, you were not forced. You chose to pay the fees, you were not forced. You could choose at ANY time to stop playing because of bad decisions by the company... THAT is your consumer right.
What I would like to see is you bring this case to court so that your names are made public and EVERY gaming company would refuse you service in the future. The liability having you as a customer would be too great and service should be refused.
If you were complaining about the game and venting that would be one thing... That is not what this post is about... This post is about legal action. If you think that is a frivolous discussion I suggest you call up any of your utilities and say "legal action". You will hear the change in their voice immediately. Potentially millions of dollars in damages (which a class action lawyer would ask for) is not a "discussion".
If you are that worried about your consumer rights being violated these boards are not the appropriate place to air your complaints. If this is just more rhetoric because you feel cheated by a game then you should be more adult about it. I happen to agree that the changes SOE made were horrible. I would have no problem discussing them in another post that expressed such feelings. This thread is way out of line and has been beaten to death a long while ago.
My point with the extortion was about how extremes are idiotic. I clearly stated that I was using your logic... That would imply I do not really think you are extorting SOE just like I think your cries for a class action lawsuit are absurd.
Again if a game is affecting you this severely you should probably refrain from playing them. It is obvious that many of the people in this thread do not have the maturity or mentality to handle these types of games.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
Thank you for so eloquently proving my point.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
It's funny but we've been saying that to you SOE haters for years, only most of us have been saying it without dropping to the point of insults and "pretend" cussing. Maybe if most of you didn't act like babies throwing rattles we'd listen to you more.
Oh come on. This IS riduculous and childish whether you want to admit it or not. Think about it.
We all see commercials for movies on tv. Heck, we also pay for them. Heck, movies cost just a little over the amount you're paying monthly for a game. But guess what, movies don't always deliver what they promised. The commercial looks great but the movie sucks when you get into the theatre and you wish you had those two hours of your life back. You vow never to watch the movie again.
But you MOVE ON. It was just a movie. Its just entertainment.
Are you going to sue them too because you didn't like their movie? Its frivilous and you know it would get thrown out of court, just like it would with SWG. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and move on.
If you don't like it so much, then don't buy their products. Can you imagine how ridiculous it would be if we all saw a movie made by MGM, hated it, and then boycotted MGM just because we hated that movie so much despite the many other movies out there made by MGM that are actually good?
This is ridiculous.
/signed
And then add to that the fact that the very nature of MMOs is change, like I said before; you wouldn't sue Blizzard because of major class changes.
Oh please!! Just put this pig to bed and get on with life for God's sake! As much as I would like, SWG is never going to be what it use to be. That is just the reality that you have yet to acknowledge.
"10. SOE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF TITLE, NONINFRINGEMENT, MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Some states do not allow the disclaimer of implied warranties, so the foregoing disclaimer may not apply to you. This warranty gives you specific legal rights and you may also have other legal rights which vary from state to state. "
AND
"12. IN NO EVENT SHALL SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS BE LIABLE TO YOU OR TO ANY THIRD PARTY FOR ANY LOST PROFITS OR SPECIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (HOWEVER ARISING, INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE) ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR ACCOUNT, THE SOFTWARE, THE GAME OR THIS AGREEMENT INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGE TO PROPERTY AND TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW DAMAGES FOR PERSONAL INJURY, EVEN IF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES OR LOSS. THE LIABILITY OF SOE, ITS LICENSORS OR ANY OF THEIR PARENT OR AFFILIATED COMPANIES TO YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTIES IS LIMITED TO $100. YOU AGREE TO WAIVE ANY RIGHT TO EQUITABLE RELIEF INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST SOE, ITS LICENSORS, THEIR PARENTS OR AFFILIATES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS TO ENFORCE THE TERMS HEREOF; HOWEVER, THE FOREGOING SHALL NOT PRECLUDE SOE AND/OR ITS LICENSORS FROM SEEKING ANY INJUNCTIVE RELIEF. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS OF LIABILITY, SO THEY MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU." (quotations taken directly from the Terms of Use for StarWars Galaxies, as they currently appear on the starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com webpage, red font added by the poster for emphasis)
This is a very important point in this discussion. I hope every time defenders of SOE's dishonest business practices start shouting "EULA EULA!", this gets highlighted.
I'm still not pushing for legal action personally, but one grows tired of people trying to defend SOE's lies with....more lies or misleading statements.
The EULA in and of itself isn't an absolute grant of immunity to SOE/LEC. It's only claim to legality is as a contract.
But is it a contract?
It's a contract in the sense that it's a "blank check" agreement between you, the customer (who has no rights granted by it) and SOE/LEC (who could insert language requiring you to submit your virgin daughters to Smed if they wanted to without your consent, they basically can alter it at any time in any way, unilaterally).
Contracts don't work that way. Contracts are supposed to be consensual agreements between equals. SOE/LEC's reservation of the right to unilaterally alter it at any time basically takes them outside the realm of established contract law, since to make an alteration to a contract, you MUST offer some sort of compensation (agreed upon mutually) in exchange. Simply "click I agree or you can't continue to use the prepaid service you already bought" is not sufficient compensation. That would be called duress. A real life example: Employers who try to foist more restrictive noncompete agreements on existing employees (done all the time) "sign this or you will be fired" has been ruled over and over again by courts all over the country as to be illegal, and invalid.
Also, EULA is that it is "click thru". Meaning they don't have a signature or a witness. In many locales, click thru contracts are not legal.
Another HUGE problem with the EULA is how broad it is... There is SOMETHING in it that is likely illegal to be in a contract in virtually every jurisdiction in the US and the rest of the world where there are SWG players. In many locales, finding ANY defect in a contract makes the whole thing invalid.
SOE/LEC try to avoid that by including language that it's a contract in the California jurisdiction, that any disputes have to be adjudicated there and under California law.
This is of very dubvious legality.
Simply put, the EULA isn't worth the paper it (isn't) printed on. You never see software companies EVER use their EULA in court. About the only purpose they really serve is to give them something they can use as a claim of dispute to even GET you into court, IF THEY WANTED TO SUE A PLAYER!
It is completely useless as a defensive tool to protect them from a lawsuit.
If you need group therapy over a game you should not play them. It is a GAME! You need to get over yourselves thinking your hobby time has value. You chose to play the game, you were not forced. You chose to pay the fees, you were not forced. You could choose at ANY time to stop playing because of bad decisions by the company... THAT is your consumer right.
What I would like to see is you bring this case to court so that your names are made public and EVERY gaming company would refuse you service in the future. The liability having you as a customer would be too great and service should be refused.
If you were complaining about the game and venting that would be one thing... That is not what this post is about... This post is about legal action. If you think that is a frivolous discussion I suggest you call up any of your utilities and say "legal action". You will hear the change in their voice immediately. Potentially millions of dollars in damages (which a class action lawyer would ask for) is not a "discussion".
If you are that worried about your consumer rights being violated these boards are not the appropriate place to air your complaints. If this is just more rhetoric because you feel cheated by a game then you should be more adult about it. I happen to agree that the changes SOE made were horrible. I would have no problem discussing them in another post that expressed such feelings. This thread is way out of line and has been beaten to death a long while ago.
My point with the extortion was about how extremes are idiotic. I clearly stated that I was using your logic... That would imply I do not really think you are extorting SOE just like I think your cries for a class action lawsuit are absurd.
Again if a game is affecting you this severely you should probably refrain from playing them. It is obvious that many of the people in this thread do not have the maturity or mentality to handle these types of games.
O.k. I get your point with the extortion example. It didn't come across that clearly in the initial post to me, but you clarified nicely.
I'd like to clarify some things as well:
First off, "I" am not calling for legal action. If you read many of the posts in this thread, people like me and Fikus are sympathetic, but not yelling "lawsuit." So in saying you'd like to ban the lot of "us" from video games in the future, I think you could be overgeneralizing.
I'll admit the term "lawsuit" can be threatening, but usually only to people that work for the company under scrutiny. You seem to find this discussion threatening, and I'm not sure why.
You also seem to try to assume a position of authority over other people who post here, telling them what they can and cannot post. For example you say this is not the place to talk about consumer rights. Why not? If you look at the description of this forum, the discussion seems to go along with it perfectly. How do people feel about the changes to SWG? They feel that their consumer rights were violated, and this thread focuses on one possible way to respond to that. If you want to add to the discussion by saying you don't think legal action is productive, well I'd very much like to hear your point of view. Trying to control other people and assume a position of authority that you don't really have isn't adding to the discussion in my view, it's trying to silence it, apparently because you feel somehow threatened by it. I appreciate some of the counter arguments in this thread, but not attempts to shut people down.
Futher, I, like many others, felt frustrated when things were messed up with SWG. I'll also admit to feeling saddened by losing things I had worked for over time, and losing contact with about 20 people that I regularly associated with in that virtual environment. Some people like to kick back and have a couple drinks with their buddies at the end of the week. Instead of doing that, I liked to kick back and have some online mayhem with my buddies at the end of the week. (Part of the reason I did this, is that I was recovering from surgery and lost my mobility for a number of months.) Was I frustrated and disappointed when this recreational/social time was messed up? Yes I was. Did I need group therapy to get over that? No I didn't. Talking about it on this forum with my online buds helped me put things into perspective. Again, incidently, I think that's one of the intentions of this forum. Why are you suggesting that people needed group therapy and aren't fit to play online games? Are you putting people down for making proper use of this forum?
While I'm thinking of it, special thanks to Shayde, Fikus, Wildcat, Fishermage, Obraik (yes Obraik lol), Dundee (gasp, yes he helped with some of his information, and willingness to dialogue), Chessack, Obee, Thraxxor and Hubertgrove. Recent posts from Esquire are also pretty cool. Other posts were pretty good also, but these names stand out in my memory.
So anyways, go ahead and disagree, make a good argument, but you may want to check some of your assumptions, generalizations, etc, and it would be cool if you stopped trying to tell people what they can and cannot say.
I have played the NGE and have had fun in it. The game in its current form is a valid game and for those having fun with it, please continue. This post is not a negative towards them or the current game.
SOE knew for at least since the CU they were planning the NGE. Around six months. They knew if they announced it when they started developing it they would lose subscription money. So instead they said the CU was here to stay. It was a bold faced lie. This lie lead to people buying prepaid subscriptions on the belief they were not changing the core game.
Before the CU SOE was promoting a different CURB telling players subscribe, this is what we are giving you knowing they were going to give the CU. People again bought prepaid subscriptions for the CURB based on lies buy SOE.
The actions by SOE were "bait and switch" tactics buy SOE. They promised one thing and delivered another, pure and simple.
I am not promoting the idea of sueing for a lost, nerfed, or rendered useless in game items or characters. Games do and need to change to stay healthy. These changes are expected and the time and money put in cannot be recorvered because of the dynamic nature of online MMOs.
However the consumers decision to invest this money and time is based on what that company tells them and doesn't tell them. SOE told them a bold faced lie about the direction of the game, twice. It was no accident or last minute change. SOE knew they were deceiving their subscribers. SOE did this because if they told the truth, the truth the players needed to make an informed decision to continue subscribing, SOE would have lost money on cancelled subs. It was a gamble on SOE's part and so far it has paid off.
If SOE told them right off what they really planned to do when they made the decision to do it, this thread wouldn't be here.
The NGE is a fine game (my opinion). But that does not excuse bait and switch, it doesn't excuse lieing to your customers to get money out of them. It doesn't excuse promoting prepaid subs with misinformation and refusing refunds when the truth comes out. Remember that ToOW was refunded for just this reason, to avoid a lawsuit.
The people here talking of a lawsuit have the right to. If they want to get a lawyer and actually do it based on bait and switch, I support them. If the statute of limitations hasen't run out I encourage them to. They were consumers that were taken advantage of. If they did sue what does it matter to a current player. It doesn't. Your game won't be affected. Let them stand up for their rights. Remember it isn't about a game changing. It is about being told the game isn't going to change when it was planned to, a lie. A lie to defraud money. EULA's may try to destroy a persons ability to sue for bait and switch, but that doesn't mean it does. The only way to know for sure is to test it in court.
This isn't about old players vs. new. It is about SOE doing somthing illegal. They may have. If they have and it was proven in court, all the players calling people here crybabies should thank any vets that actually sued. The case would make precident that would protect you as a consumer with any MMO you may play.
Good luck to those that may try it. It would be a shame if after all this disscussion it was never tried.
"Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic
Nicely said!
If you need group therapy over a game you should not play them. It is a GAME! You need to get over yourselves thinking your hobby time has value. You chose to play the game, you were not forced. You chose to pay the fees, you were not forced. You could choose at ANY time to stop playing because of bad decisions by the company... THAT is your consumer right.
What I would like to see is you bring this case to court so that your names are made public and EVERY gaming company would refuse you service in the future. The liability having you as a customer would be too great and service should be refused.
If you were complaining about the game and venting that would be one thing... That is not what this post is about... This post is about legal action. If you think that is a frivolous discussion I suggest you call up any of your utilities and say "legal action". You will hear the change in their voice immediately. Potentially millions of dollars in damages (which a class action lawyer would ask for) is not a "discussion".
If you are that worried about your consumer rights being violated these boards are not the appropriate place to air your complaints. If this is just more rhetoric because you feel cheated by a game then you should be more adult about it. I happen to agree that the changes SOE made were horrible. I would have no problem discussing them in another post that expressed such feelings. This thread is way out of line and has been beaten to death a long while ago.
My point with the extortion was about how extremes are idiotic. I clearly stated that I was using your logic... That would imply I do not really think you are extorting SOE just like I think your cries for a class action lawsuit are absurd.
Again if a game is affecting you this severely you should probably refrain from playing them. It is obvious that many of the people in this thread do not have the maturity or mentality to handle these types of games.
So are you really saying that idle discussion about a lawsuit is crossing the line?
And you want to ban those talking about from any future game? So the EULA doesn't take away enough rights, you feel blackballing is in order?
Really? Really Really?
Shayde - SWG (dead)
Proud member of the Cabal.
It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled
I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0