You cannot blame the game itself or Blizzard for the success of the game. Other developers who can only think of simple replication to try and repeat the same success is the real problem.
WoW is ruining the mmo industry by convincing devs that everyone out there wants to play a game like WoW, now the next gen mmos are going to be (unsuccessful) WoW clones. We are going to have to wait till the clones fail to get some actual innovation.
WoW is a great game if you like that style of play, you can not blame Blizzard for making a 'great' game (it does pain me to say that, I personally hate WoW). The blame would be on the greedy suits who want a cut of that WoW money.
Problem is WoW is so damn successful Game Designers see little reason to stray from the golden path its laid out. It's called an "established model". Game Devs get funding from Game Publishers by following an established model. This makes it a safer investment
Would you risk your life savings on some company you never heard of? I dont I make safe, sure investments.
Look at WAR and many other titles I've recently tested. Tehy're playing it sooooo safe its unreal. WoW has a huge market share. Game Publishers think big. They want a piece of the pie. why in the hell would they risk a huge titan budget on an experiment?
Before WoW it was bad due to EQ. But not this bad. We still saw innovation with SWG PRe-CU.
There were and still are games that are to some degree innovative but really look at the market.. It's filled with nothing but sequels. How many fucking copies of Madden football do we really need. It's the same damn game. Hell when my friends come over I fire up Tecmo Bowl on my Wii Virtual Console. It's a simple and crappy graphics game but growing up it was so much fun and so simple that games were always really close at the end. That alone speaks volumes.. Some people talk of innovation and it's ony by further complicating a game to call a more "deep" or engrossing game but alot of people are becoming turned of by this. Most days now whether I play a game here or a friends house the winner is usually determined by who owns and has played the game more to learn the intricate system underneath it all.
The difference I see is people keep asking for small nuances in play like perma death or better crafting and all of these things only have an impact at a personal level, that being of the person playing themself. What we need to see and what it kind of appears that WAR was trying for is a way for people to work together more often in these games. The social aspect is one draw for sure but for a game to feel truly massive to me I want to be working together for a goal. That goal by the way isn't getting some small % drop RAID loot.
There were and still are games that are to some degree innovative but really look at the market.. It's filled with nothing but sequels. How many fucking copies of Madden football do we really need. It's the same damn game. Hell when my friends come over I fire up Tecmo Bowl on my Wii Virtual Console. It's a simple and crappy graphics game but growing up it was so much fun and so simple that games were always really close at the end. The difference I see is people keep asking for small nuances in play like perma death or better crafting and all of these things only have an impact at a personal level, that being of the person playing themself. What we need to see and what it kind of appears that WAR was trying for is a way for people to work together more often in these games. The social aspect is one draw for sure but for a game to feel truly massive to me I want to be working together for a goal. That goal by the way isn't getting some small % drop RAID loot.
yes I do agree with the points in this post it would be nice to get greater socialization. one thing (out of others) I though tCity of Heroes nailed down was the great custimzation and the strong socialization you have at Atlas PArk. The player run costume contests was nice. we need more sandbox elements to me
but ya perhaps that will be a strong point for WAR players the downplaying of lewts I agree
edit- oh btw Tecmo Bowl is a legend u have great taste in games
Actually just edited my post and I think we agreed there all of a sudden. My initial posts on this thread may have been well intentioned and very short/ misspoken. My point is and always has been that we are focusing on the wrong elements as far as MMO games are concerned cause people keep pushing for mechanics and features that cater to their individual player. All this really does is make the people around you playing less and less important as you focus on the next great shiny.
Instead of wasting all this time on artists and modelers etc for new crap to give players pay people to run GM events all the time and get people together to accomplish something. The game can remain simple mechanics wise and not punish those with limited game times as much. People feel like they are contributing and a part of the system. Some of the best games out there that I have ever played were all very simple to pick up ( like Tecmo bowl)
Innovation does not have to equal complex play styles and massive time dedication. Nor should a game need to be punishing to a player. If you don't like the idea of dying just make it your goal to never die. The game itself doesn't have to have the mechanics set forth to handle your desires. before you say that's a copout that's in general what a sandbox game is all about. You the player decide and dictate what happens in the world even when mechanics aren't there. When I originally or now play Tecmo Bowl do you think i criticize it for the lack of large meaningful playbook?
its the classic debat when it comes to death penalties. Death penalties allow me to make an impact and downplays gear acquisition. it enforces real life elements and creates new careers. For instance in EVE we have 'scout' careers that will jump through the gate and look for campers. I'd pay a scout dearly to help insure I get my minerals and stuff out of 0.0 tonight. I have some expesive goods I need to export to Empire that will sell for a good price
If there was no death penalty I wouldnt sweat it and could care less about dying. sure its more grind if I get killed but hey- at least some lucky pirate will get a fortune in minerals tonite if I fail. I like to think of it as sharing with more aggressive brethen
I'm sort of a carebear but violence makes games fun for me., Makes me sweat and makes repetitive PVE encounters much more intense when im in danger of being robbed blind heh
tough penalties are needed for my type of crowd. no penalties are maybe more in demand for those that just wanna sit back and chill and not worry about anything. I like more realism so I want harsh penalties. so far from what ive seen the more extreme the penalty the more I like it now. but i was not always this way. I used to hate being punished with a passion and thought WoW was my savior lol
Actually just edited my post and I think we agreed there all of a sudden. My initial posts on this thread may have been well intentioned and very short/ misspoken. My point is and always has been that we are focusing on the wrong elements as far as MMO games are concerned cause people keep pushing for mechanics and features that cater to their individual player. All this really does is make the people around you playing less and less important as you focus on the next great shiny.
I quoted the first part becuase i believe it speaks what is truely wrong with mmos currently. And you are completely 100% right. Its too focused on the individual player. This is a big flaw of item centric level based games, all people want to do is get better armor.
Good point.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Im not sure about permadeath. I sure wouldnt want my character to just be deleted after i died. But I do like the concept of making resurrection extremely hard. like a resurrect spell that is so hard to attain that only a handful in the server would have attained it. and only having a handful of npc healers in game that can only resurrect a certain number of players a week (The same for Pcs). Now that would make things interesting. one option i loved about UO was the fact that you could walk around as a ghost and only talk to people with spirit speak. Imagine if you were forced to walk around as a ghost all week. There are probably a lot of things that i missed but thats my general idea. I know having a ghost that can walk around and spy for guild would be a little tough to deal with but i guess you can solve that with somekind of banish spell that wont let a ghost get within a certain distance of the caster. Anyway Thats my opinion on this subject.
Oh i forgot to bash WoW like everyone else
sorry i cant bash WoW i never played it ( im probably the only person here that hasnt LOL)
its the classic debat when it comes to death penalties. Death penalties allow me to make an impact and downplays gear acquisition. it enforces real life elements and creates new careers. For instance in EVE we have 'scout' careers that will jump through the gate and look for campers. I'd pay a scout dearly to help insure I get my minerals and stuff out of 0.0 tonight. I have some expesive goods I need to export to Empire that will sell for a good price If there was no death penalty I wouldnt sweat it and could care less about dying. sure its more grind if I get killed but hey- at least some lucky pirate will get a fortune in minerals tonite if I fail. I like to think of it as sharing with more aggressive brethen
I'm sort of a carebear but violence makes games fun for me., Makes me sweat and makes repetitive PVE encounters much more intense when im in danger of being robbed blind heh
tough penalties are needed for my type of crowd. no penalties are maybe more in demand for those that just wanna sit back and chill and not worry about anything. I like more realism so I want harsh penalties. so far from what ive seen the more extreme the penalty the more I like it now. but i was not always this way. I used to hate being punished with a passion and thought WoW was my savior lol
Yeah! The only reason I like the idea of permadeath is due to the fact that way to many people rush into a battle gung ho style not caring what happened. Not to mention if there is not death penalty it lessens the reward ten fold.
Think about it for a brief moment everyone. What if you and/or your friends kill a dragon in a permadeath system, something no one has done. You would be revered and a true hero to many players. It increases achievements ten fold.
I mean whos to say you couldnt get ressed by a priest friend if he made it in time? I agree with many others though that the fact is it would not work well in a wow type of game. But it would rock in a sandbox mmo.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
yep man imagine the possibilities. There is some bully thats griefing all the newbies just slaying them for good with no remorse. you rise up and kill the bully. The newbies love you, build you a statue. then you kill them all and become the next villain lols I'd play this game all night long
man what happened to Blizzard I still like them I'll be buying the next Diablo and next Starcraft
if you played Starcraft dont u remem how Sandbox it was? Dont u remem screaming at the thought of losing rank if u lost a battle? Newbies *begged* you not to slay them. I mean begged and pleaded. It was such a sandbox
Then you could ally with your friends, kill all the enemies, then kill your friends and make them call you on the phone and beg not to do it lol. I remember this one bastard they kept me and my buddy up all night long after he betrayed us and unallied lol.
But to some degree these kind of penalties work better for some games than others.. The way a lot of fantasy based games are setup perma death would mean possibly losing years worth of time and money invested. What if the death occcured during a power outage etc? Believe it or not, where I live there are a LOT of traffic accidents that end up knocking my power out. Usually 3 times a month. There are many unknowns between my or your computer and the companies server.
And I just want to touch up on the hotly debated WoW issue.. this is just an out there comment I would like to make. I have a friend who lives out in the middle of nowhere. He plays WoW quite alot. When talking to him I realized that He got to level 70 but wasn't all into RAID scene etc. It seemed as if he was more into the exploration and sightseeing. There are many elements to these games and to just bash certain games only due to combat depth or whatnot and then try to persuade someone else not to play is a bit of a bad idea because these games do offer much to many different people.
1 last crazy off topc comment. back in 99 I was playing Asherons Call. My character was only lvl 30 at the time but seeing as the game had a seemless world I went sight seeing just to see how far I could get. After about an hour of running way north past any known towns was a small building where I met a housewife who was playing a character (low level) that was in the middle of nowhere baking. I sat around and talked for probably 30 minutes and she gave me a pie to which I had to force her to take my chump change before I ran off. I then realized that not everyone gets caught up in the level to X get best item Y Bullshit race and just tried to hang out in a place that was foreign to them. Sadly since then I've hardly seen that kind of interaction in these games.
permadeath works well depending on the game mechanics. But with so many variables and potential issues making a death completely out of the players control it would just create massive headaches and player retention problems when a person gets set back 9 months due to some random crazy event happening. Personally I think these games should have a very quick advancement time with small perks and tuning when you get near the top of your development, then I'll accept permadeath.
Actually making it optional in the presence of others would be a bad idea as it would still create a divide amongst the players. Can people without PD attack one who can die? what about PD player in a group of non PD fools who want to just charge everything at will? a mixed system would definitely be even worse in my opinion.
Actually making it optional in the presence of others would be a bad idea as it would still create a divide amongst the players. Can people without PD attack one who can die? what about PD player in a group of non PD fools who want to just charge everything at will? a mixed system would definitely be even worse in my opinion.
Then if you are afraid to use the perma-death system then chose the standard 1! its simple! its your choice! when you make a mistake and get your char perma-death, don't whine and complain, because its your choice!
nah i agree with uni on this. if its a choice then its pointless. the whole point of having permadeath is to stop players from being so gung ho in battle and make achevments worth more. it needs to be in or out , not in between.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
I see quite a lot of threads about a MMORPG with permanent death which interests me from a roleplaying perspective as I think it would add realism. So I'm very much for a game that would include this. In this thread rather than discuss its feasability or how it should work I thought I'd ask for some views on what people think it means. I'm asking this as I get the impression that when people talk about perma-death they consider that once a character dies it is the end and there is no coming back. I rather take it to mean there is no automatic re-incarnation of a character once they have died, whether you have to recover a corpse or not. This does mean that a character can still be revived by other mechanics. Most games have abilities that allow one player to 'rez' another. Another idea would be that a live character could drag the corpse of a dead character, at a slow speed because of the weight, back to an npc who could rez them.
1. Any game with "rezzing" or "corpse recovery" or "reviving" is NOT a perma-death game. And 99% of every mmorpg has this. Including your "idea" of another player being able to drag the corpse of a dead player. (See Everquest)
2. To anyone who is intrested in perma-death, the best way to understand it, is to experience it. Please do some homework which includes playing Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You will come running back to this forum crying in tears, shaking uncontrolably, blowing your nose every 5 seconds.
3. The ONLY perma-death mmorpg in existance is the revolutionary
In addition to perma-death, SfP has many other revolutionary features.
(And for the 10 millionth time LOL to the owners of this site MMORPG.com, if you're willing to put Racewar Kingdoms up on some parts of your site, saying it fits your definition of a mmorpg ((which I don't mind)) then you have to allow for Strive for Power to fit your definition of a mmorpg. )
4. A little mmorpg history: SWG originally was going to have perma-death. Their original game DEVs were impressed with hardcore mode in Diablo 2, and wrote about it. Jedi were to have 100% perma-death to keep them in check
5. Perma-death = short for permenate death. Aka dead forever. You die one time, you are dead forever. No chance for a rez, no chance to come back. You die.... you are... dead. Play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode to truely understand, to truely experience, perma-death.
The discussion seems to be slipping towards why perma-death is a good / bad idea or how to implement it, so trying to pull in back on its intended topic let me add some more thoughts of my own.
I've played a fair few different games, started out with 2 and a bit years EQ1, but I've only come across one game (Horizons) where the lore of the game itself gave a reason for automatic re-incarnation on death. So as a roleplayer and looking for features in an MMORPG that add to the realism, if the lore of the game doesn't support automatic re-incarnation then it shouldn't be there. However that doesn't mean a character can't be rezzed by some other means. This is why I take a meaning for perma-death that seems different from most others I've seen comment.
For those that see the meaning as being one death and that is the end of your character why do you feel that removing automatic resurrection means you also have to remove player ability resurrection? For those that like the idea of perma-death because you think it makes a game more hardcore would you also want all healing removed?
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
The discussion seems to be slipping towards why perma-death is a good / bad idea or how to implement it, so trying to pull in back on its intended topic let me add some more thoughts of my own.
I've played a fair few different games, started out with 2 and a bit years EQ1, but I've only come across one game (Horizons) where the lore of the game itself gave a reason for automatic re-incarnation on death. So as a roleplayer and looking for features in an MMORPG that add to the realism, if the lore of the game doesn't support automatic re-incarnation then it shouldn't be there. However that doesn't mean a character can't be rezzed by some other means. This is why I take a meaning for perma-death that seems different from most others I've seen comment.
For those that see the meaning as being one death and that is the end of your character why do you feel that removing automatic resurrection means you also have to remove player ability resurrection? For those that like the idea of perma-death because you think it makes a game more hardcore would you also want all healing removed?
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
One does not have to play any game to be able to simply discuss the mechanics of Perma Death. There's nothing hard to grasp about the concept. Do you really need to have someone shit on your face to understand that you wouldn't like it? That idea for perma death is technically feasible under the grounds that the player cannot bring him/herself back to life but depend on others or a long ass random wait to be brought back into the world. It may not fit your definition, but remember there are many people declared clinically dead that have been brought back by doctors.
Put it this way, if the game is actually fun to play, you won't mind starting over from scratch. No one in WoW would want perma death because the game isn’t fun.
HG:L will have a hardcore mode (one death and you are gone, I think). I will play this mode at some point, gladly.
Put it this way, if the game is actually fun to play, you won't mind starting over from scratch. No one in WoW would want perma death because the game isn’t fun. HG:L with have a hardcore mode (one death and you are gone, I think). I will play this mode at some point, gladly.
WoW or any games fun is decided by the individual. Apparently quite a few find it fun. If the developers made a large world fleshed out for people to see I fail to see how anyone would willingly enjoy repeating only a 3rd of the available content. The problem of completely losing all progress is that they put so many time sinks in most people Will either never take chances to lose it or if they do lose it won't return.
The discussion seems to be slipping towards why perma-death is a good / bad idea or how to implement it, so trying to pull in back on its intended topic let me add some more thoughts of my own.
I've played a fair few different games, started out with 2 and a bit years EQ1, but I've only come across one game (Horizons) where the lore of the game itself gave a reason for automatic re-incarnation on death. So as a roleplayer and looking for features in an MMORPG that add to the realism, if the lore of the game doesn't support automatic re-incarnation then it shouldn't be there. However that doesn't mean a character can't be rezzed by some other means. This is why I take a meaning for perma-death that seems different from most others I've seen comment.
For those that see the meaning as being one death and that is the end of your character why do you feel that removing automatic resurrection means you also have to remove player ability resurrection? For those that like the idea of perma-death because you think it makes a game more hardcore would you also want all healing removed?
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
One does not have to play any game to be able to simply discuss the mechanics of Perma Death. There's nothing hard to grasp about the concept. Do you really need to have someone (Bleeeep) on your face to understand that you wouldn't like it? That idea for perma death is technically feasible under the grounds that the player cannot bring him/herself back to life but depend on others or a long ass random wait to be brought back into the world. It may not fit your definition, but remember there are many people declared clinically dead that have been brought back by doctors.
1. There are people who have never driven a BMW, but dislike it. There are people who HAVE driven a BMW and dislike it. Who is in a better position to discuss what the dislikes of a BMW?
2. And yes, your point further supports my point. You have smelled poo before, vs someone who has never smelled poo before. Who is in a better position to discuss the dislikes of poo?
3. To actually PLAY and experience a permadeath game gives one front row experience. Feeling the rush, the FEAR, the terror, your heart scream, your brain hide, your eyes well up with tears, your tongue go dry, your teeth hurt, your lungs shut off.... Even if one does not like perma-death, or likes perma-death. Play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode, and you will understand. I'm not even going to get into players who have made it up to level 99 in Diablo 2 in hardcore mode
After Diablo 2 in hardcore mode, Strive for Power is the next best way to experience perma-death in all its glory.
What part of permanent death do you not understand ? It means your character dying and never coming back.
OP your question was answered on the second post. Every following post was simply restating this or offering a death penalty instead of PD.
Now the question is can PD help or improve a game. Well the answer to that is it depends entirely on the type of game. For example, Counter Strike technically has PD. Once you are killed you not only sit out the game but when the game restarts you start from scratch (base Avatar). This is why CS is a lot more fun that a game like Unreal DM where, when you die you simply respawn (rinse & repeat).
PD does work for FPS and games where the endgame (getting the best gear) can be attained in less than an hour but the model would never work for MMO’s and especially MMORPGs. That’s because PD creates one major problem, the problem was actually noticed by Blizzard and they invested a lot of time, as did every major Game MFG, to curb the problem. Ah, so what is the problem with PD you ask, simply PKers/Griefers.
If you ever played on the D2 HC servers you would at some point experience a PK/GR and if they were 15+ lvls higher than you they would go hostile or if they were less than 15 lvls they would log. Blizzard actually changed the game so that they would have to go to town to go hostile instead of allowing them to find you, see you were a low enough lvl and go hostile in the field.
MMO/MMORPG mfgs understand this problem and that is why you will never see a major game with PD because games that have PK/GR and PD are not fun. Game Mfgs understand that people play games to have fun and that PK/GR types play to remove the fun from the other players whitch is counter to the interest of the game (mfg and other players).
Now, what about a niche game being created would not some one create a PD game for just a few players? Well even when a group of self proclaimed PK/GRers got together and created a game (EVE) they knew better than to add permadeath. If CCP, who should have been the ones and god knows I rallied for a PD EVE server, knew it would be fanatically irresponsible to create a PD MMO then no major MFG will.
This is because PD actually adds no value to a MMO/MMORPG game experience, it only detracts from it.
Put it this way, if the game is actually fun to play, you won't mind starting over from scratch. No one in WoW would want perma death because the game isn’t fun. HG:L will have a hardcore mode (one death and you are gone, I think). I will play this mode at some point, gladly.
First of all, WoW is fun. It's a matter of perspective.
Secondly, I don't care how fun the game is. Starting over from scratch and doing the same thing you did a million times before would get boring.
First of all, WoW is fun. It's a matter of perspective.
Secondly, I don't care how fun the game is. Starting over from scratch and doing the same thing you did a million times before would get boring.
You can say the same for permadeath . Some people like it, some (ok, a lot ) don't. From my limited experience in MMO's (Coh/Cov and DDO) the endgame is doing the same thing you did a million times over and over again. Some prefer the high end game and some like the getting there.
I enjoy permadeath play but I don't see a PD MMO working anytime soon. I do think that a PD server on most MMO's would attract enough people to justify running it though.
All it takes is one good idea.. ok, maybe more like a colection of shitload of great ideas, but saying it can't be done just because no one has done it in a way that it's fun and chalenging, oh how litle you know about anything.
I don't offer any solutions to the problem but one idea does feel like a must. A BIG RED KILL BUTTON
I'm realy sick of this mechanics that you just have to fight someone till death, I don't want to kill people, I want to kick them in the face and send to a hospital, I want them to get angry and hunt me down, how can he do that if he's dead, and how will I know it's him if he rerolled. It's just stupid, having to kill people because there is no other option.
Oh and yeah, I wanna be a bounty hunter in a game where there is actualy a need for them and yes, I want PD so I DON'T kill people, because killing someone when it has no consequences is a no brainer, but killing someone when it means he will lose it all is a big deal.
Maybe I'm just naive but I realy don't think that everyone is a homocidal maniac waiting to kill everything that breaths, it's the lack of choice that makes us kill not the choice itself.
Comments
You cannot blame the game itself or Blizzard for the success of the game. Other developers who can only think of simple replication to try and repeat the same success is the real problem.
WoW is a great game if you like that style of play, you can not blame Blizzard for making a 'great' game (it does pain me to say that, I personally hate WoW). The blame would be on the greedy suits who want a cut of that WoW money.
Problem is WoW is so damn successful Game Designers see little reason to stray from the golden path its laid out. It's called an "established model". Game Devs get funding from Game Publishers by following an established model. This makes it a safer investment
Would you risk your life savings on some company you never heard of? I dont I make safe, sure investments.
Look at WAR and many other titles I've recently tested. Tehy're playing it sooooo safe its unreal. WoW has a huge market share. Game Publishers think big. They want a piece of the pie. why in the hell would they risk a huge titan budget on an experiment?
Before WoW it was bad due to EQ. But not this bad. We still saw innovation with SWG PRe-CU.
edit- at least we still have EVE
There were and still are games that are to some degree innovative but really look at the market.. It's filled with nothing but sequels. How many fucking copies of Madden football do we really need. It's the same damn game. Hell when my friends come over I fire up Tecmo Bowl on my Wii Virtual Console. It's a simple and crappy graphics game but growing up it was so much fun and so simple that games were always really close at the end. That alone speaks volumes.. Some people talk of innovation and it's ony by further complicating a game to call a more "deep" or engrossing game but alot of people are becoming turned of by this. Most days now whether I play a game here or a friends house the winner is usually determined by who owns and has played the game more to learn the intricate system underneath it all.
The difference I see is people keep asking for small nuances in play like perma death or better crafting and all of these things only have an impact at a personal level, that being of the person playing themself. What we need to see and what it kind of appears that WAR was trying for is a way for people to work together more often in these games. The social aspect is one draw for sure but for a game to feel truly massive to me I want to be working together for a goal. That goal by the way isn't getting some small % drop RAID loot.
yes I do agree with the points in this post it would be nice to get greater socialization. one thing (out of others) I though tCity of Heroes nailed down was the great custimzation and the strong socialization you have at Atlas PArk. The player run costume contests was nice. we need more sandbox elements to me
but ya perhaps that will be a strong point for WAR players the downplaying of lewts I agree
edit- oh btw Tecmo Bowl is a legend u have great taste in games
Actually just edited my post and I think we agreed there all of a sudden. My initial posts on this thread may have been well intentioned and very short/ misspoken. My point is and always has been that we are focusing on the wrong elements as far as MMO games are concerned cause people keep pushing for mechanics and features that cater to their individual player. All this really does is make the people around you playing less and less important as you focus on the next great shiny.
Instead of wasting all this time on artists and modelers etc for new crap to give players pay people to run GM events all the time and get people together to accomplish something. The game can remain simple mechanics wise and not punish those with limited game times as much. People feel like they are contributing and a part of the system. Some of the best games out there that I have ever played were all very simple to pick up ( like Tecmo bowl)
Innovation does not have to equal complex play styles and massive time dedication. Nor should a game need to be punishing to a player. If you don't like the idea of dying just make it your goal to never die. The game itself doesn't have to have the mechanics set forth to handle your desires. before you say that's a copout that's in general what a sandbox game is all about. You the player decide and dictate what happens in the world even when mechanics aren't there. When I originally or now play Tecmo Bowl do you think i criticize it for the lack of large meaningful playbook?
its the classic debat when it comes to death penalties. Death penalties allow me to make an impact and downplays gear acquisition. it enforces real life elements and creates new careers. For instance in EVE we have 'scout' careers that will jump through the gate and look for campers. I'd pay a scout dearly to help insure I get my minerals and stuff out of 0.0 tonight. I have some expesive goods I need to export to Empire that will sell for a good price
If there was no death penalty I wouldnt sweat it and could care less about dying. sure its more grind if I get killed but hey- at least some lucky pirate will get a fortune in minerals tonite if I fail. I like to think of it as sharing with more aggressive brethen
I'm sort of a carebear but violence makes games fun for me., Makes me sweat and makes repetitive PVE encounters much more intense when im in danger of being robbed blind heh
tough penalties are needed for my type of crowd. no penalties are maybe more in demand for those that just wanna sit back and chill and not worry about anything. I like more realism so I want harsh penalties. so far from what ive seen the more extreme the penalty the more I like it now. but i was not always this way. I used to hate being punished with a passion and thought WoW was my savior lol
I quoted the first part becuase i believe it speaks what is truely wrong with mmos currently. And you are completely 100% right. Its too focused on the individual player. This is a big flaw of item centric level based games, all people want to do is get better armor.
Good point.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
Im not sure about permadeath. I sure wouldnt want my character to just be deleted after i died. But I do like the concept of making resurrection extremely hard. like a resurrect spell that is so hard to attain that only a handful in the server would have attained it. and only having a handful of npc healers in game that can only resurrect a certain number of players a week (The same for Pcs). Now that would make things interesting. one option i loved about UO was the fact that you could walk around as a ghost and only talk to people with spirit speak. Imagine if you were forced to walk around as a ghost all week. There are probably a lot of things that i missed but thats my general idea. I know having a ghost that can walk around and spy for guild would be a little tough to deal with but i guess you can solve that with somekind of banish spell that wont let a ghost get within a certain distance of the caster. Anyway Thats my opinion on this subject.
Oh i forgot to bash WoW like everyone else
sorry i cant bash WoW i never played it ( im probably the only person here that hasnt LOL)
Yeah! The only reason I like the idea of permadeath is due to the fact that way to many people rush into a battle gung ho style not caring what happened. Not to mention if there is not death penalty it lessens the reward ten fold.
Think about it for a brief moment everyone. What if you and/or your friends kill a dragon in a permadeath system, something no one has done. You would be revered and a true hero to many players. It increases achievements ten fold.
I mean whos to say you couldnt get ressed by a priest friend if he made it in time? I agree with many others though that the fact is it would not work well in a wow type of game. But it would rock in a sandbox mmo.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
yep man imagine the possibilities. There is some bully thats griefing all the newbies just slaying them for good with no remorse. you rise up and kill the bully. The newbies love you, build you a statue. then you kill them all and become the next villain lols I'd play this game all night long
man what happened to Blizzard I still like them I'll be buying the next Diablo and next Starcraft
if you played Starcraft dont u remem how Sandbox it was? Dont u remem screaming at the thought of losing rank if u lost a battle? Newbies *begged* you not to slay them. I mean begged and pleaded. It was such a sandbox
Then you could ally with your friends, kill all the enemies, then kill your friends and make them call you on the phone and beg not to do it lol. I remember this one bastard they kept me and my buddy up all night long after he betrayed us and unallied lol.
Thats real too me. caring about life and death
But to some degree these kind of penalties work better for some games than others.. The way a lot of fantasy based games are setup perma death would mean possibly losing years worth of time and money invested. What if the death occcured during a power outage etc? Believe it or not, where I live there are a LOT of traffic accidents that end up knocking my power out. Usually 3 times a month. There are many unknowns between my or your computer and the companies server.
And I just want to touch up on the hotly debated WoW issue.. this is just an out there comment I would like to make. I have a friend who lives out in the middle of nowhere. He plays WoW quite alot. When talking to him I realized that He got to level 70 but wasn't all into RAID scene etc. It seemed as if he was more into the exploration and sightseeing. There are many elements to these games and to just bash certain games only due to combat depth or whatnot and then try to persuade someone else not to play is a bit of a bad idea because these games do offer much to many different people.
1 last crazy off topc comment. back in 99 I was playing Asherons Call. My character was only lvl 30 at the time but seeing as the game had a seemless world I went sight seeing just to see how far I could get. After about an hour of running way north past any known towns was a small building where I met a housewife who was playing a character (low level) that was in the middle of nowhere baking. I sat around and talked for probably 30 minutes and she gave me a pie to which I had to force her to take my chump change before I ran off. I then realized that not everyone gets caught up in the level to X get best item Y Bullshit race and just tried to hang out in a place that was foreign to them. Sadly since then I've hardly seen that kind of interaction in these games.
permadeath works well depending on the game mechanics. But with so many variables and potential issues making a death completely out of the players control it would just create massive headaches and player retention problems when a person gets set back 9 months due to some random crazy event happening. Personally I think these games should have a very quick advancement time with small perks and tuning when you get near the top of your development, then I'll accept permadeath.
Actually making it optional in the presence of others would be a bad idea as it would still create a divide amongst the players. Can people without PD attack one who can die? what about PD player in a group of non PD fools who want to just charge everything at will? a mixed system would definitely be even worse in my opinion.
Then if you are afraid to use the perma-death system then chose the standard 1! its simple! its your choice! when you make a mistake and get your char perma-death, don't whine and complain, because its your choice!
nah i agree with uni on this. if its a choice then its pointless. the whole point of having permadeath is to stop players from being so gung ho in battle and make achevments worth more. it needs to be in or out , not in between.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
2. To anyone who is intrested in perma-death, the best way to understand it, is to experience it. Please do some homework which includes playing Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You will come running back to this forum crying in tears, shaking uncontrolably, blowing your nose every 5 seconds.
3. The ONLY perma-death mmorpg in existance is the revolutionary
Strive for Power
http://sfp.plit.dk/cgi-bin/siu.pl?RC=5131
In addition to perma-death, SfP has many other revolutionary features.
(And for the 10 millionth time
LOL 
to the owners of this site MMORPG.com, if you're willing to put Racewar Kingdoms up on some parts of your site, saying it fits your definition of a mmorpg ((which I don't mind)) then you have to allow for Strive for Power to fit your definition of a mmorpg. 
)
4. A little mmorpg history: SWG originally was going to have perma-death. Their original game DEVs were impressed with hardcore mode in Diablo 2, and wrote about it. Jedi were to have 100% perma-death to keep them in check
5. Perma-death = short for permenate death. Aka dead forever. You die one time, you are dead forever. No chance for a rez, no chance to come back. You die.... you are... dead. Play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode to truely understand, to truely experience, perma-death.
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
One does not have to play any game to be able to simply discuss the mechanics of Perma Death. There's nothing hard to grasp about the concept. Do you really need to have someone shit on your face to understand that you wouldn't like it? That idea for perma death is technically feasible under the grounds that the player cannot bring him/herself back to life but depend on others or a long ass random wait to be brought back into the world. It may not fit your definition, but remember there are many people declared clinically dead that have been brought back by doctors.
Put it this way, if the game is actually fun to play, you won't mind starting over from scratch. No one in WoW would want perma death because the game isn’t fun.
HG:L will have a hardcore mode (one death and you are gone, I think). I will play this mode at some point, gladly.
WoW or any games fun is decided by the individual. Apparently quite a few find it fun. If the developers made a large world fleshed out for people to see I fail to see how anyone would willingly enjoy repeating only a 3rd of the available content. The problem of completely losing all progress is that they put so many time sinks in most people Will either never take chances to lose it or if they do lose it won't return.
1. Your OP talks about ways of implimenting perma-death. So most posters were on subject. It's just that your ideas go against perma-death. There is NO rezzing at all in perma-death. And yes, it means that a character CAN'T be rezzed by any other means. Your "meaning" of perma-death is not perma-death. You are attempting to hijack the subject of perma-death, and dilute it. No one will fall for it.
2. Removing automatic rezzing means having perma-death. Removing player ability is NEEDED in order to fit the definition of perma-death.
3. Being able to heal while still alive has nothing at all to do with a discussion about perma-death.
If you want to discuss perma-death anymore, you must do some serious research. You must experience permadeath. You must play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode. You must play Strive for Power. One can't discuss what one has never experienced.
One does not have to play any game to be able to simply discuss the mechanics of Perma Death. There's nothing hard to grasp about the concept. Do you really need to have someone (Bleeeep) on your face to understand that you wouldn't like it? That idea for perma death is technically feasible under the grounds that the player cannot bring him/herself back to life but depend on others or a long ass random wait to be brought back into the world. It may not fit your definition, but remember there are many people declared clinically dead that have been brought back by doctors.
1. There are people who have never driven a BMW, but dislike it. There are people who HAVE driven a BMW and dislike it. Who is in a better position to discuss what the dislikes of a BMW?
2. And yes, your point further supports my point. You have smelled poo before, vs someone who has never smelled poo before. Who is in a better position to discuss the dislikes of poo?
3. To actually PLAY and experience a permadeath game gives one front row experience. Feeling the rush, the FEAR, the terror, your heart scream, your brain hide, your eyes well up with tears, your tongue go dry, your teeth hurt, your lungs shut off.... Even if one does not like perma-death, or likes perma-death. Play Diablo 2 in hardcore mode, and you will understand. I'm not even going to get into players who have made it up to level 99 in Diablo 2 in hardcore mode
After Diablo 2 in hardcore mode, Strive for Power is the next best way to experience perma-death in all its glory.
OP your question was answered on the second post. Every following post was simply restating this or offering a death penalty instead of PD.
Now the question is can PD help or improve a game. Well the answer to that is it depends entirely on the type of game. For example, Counter Strike technically has PD. Once you are killed you not only sit out the game but when the game restarts you start from scratch (base Avatar). This is why CS is a lot more fun that a game like Unreal DM where, when you die you simply respawn (rinse & repeat).
PD does work for FPS and games where the endgame (getting the best gear) can be attained in less than an hour but the model would never work for MMO’s and especially MMORPGs. That’s because PD creates one major problem, the problem was actually noticed by Blizzard and they invested a lot of time, as did every major Game MFG, to curb the problem. Ah, so what is the problem with PD you ask, simply PKers/Griefers.
If you ever played on the D2 HC servers you would at some point experience a PK/GR and if they were 15+ lvls higher than you they would go hostile or if they were less than 15 lvls they would log. Blizzard actually changed the game so that they would have to go to town to go hostile instead of allowing them to find you, see you were a low enough lvl and go hostile in the field.
MMO/MMORPG mfgs understand this problem and that is why you will never see a major game with PD because games that have PK/GR and PD are not fun. Game Mfgs understand that people play games to have fun and that PK/GR types play to remove the fun from the other players whitch is counter to the interest of the game (mfg and other players).
Now, what about a niche game being created would not some one create a PD game for just a few players? Well even when a group of self proclaimed PK/GRers got together and created a game (EVE) they knew better than to add permadeath. If CCP, who should have been the ones and god knows I rallied for a PD EVE server, knew it would be fanatically irresponsible to create a PD MMO then no major MFG will.
This is because PD actually adds no value to a MMO/MMORPG game experience, it only detracts from it.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
First of all, WoW is fun. It's a matter of perspective.
Secondly, I don't care how fun the game is. Starting over from scratch and doing the same thing you did a million times before would get boring.
You can say the same for permadeath
. Some people like it, some (ok, a lot 
) don't. From my limited experience in MMO's (Coh/Cov and DDO) the endgame is doing the same thing you did a million times over and over again. Some prefer the high end game and some like the getting there.
I enjoy permadeath play but I don't see a PD MMO working anytime soon. I do think that a PD server on most MMO's would attract enough people to justify running it though.
--
DDO Permadeath guilds
perma death rules :;P like the jedis in swg before the trolls at soe got a bright idea
All it takes is one good idea.. ok, maybe more like a colection of shitload of great ideas, but saying it can't be done just because no one has done it in a way that it's fun and chalenging, oh how litle you know about anything.
I don't offer any solutions to the problem but one idea does feel like a must. A BIG RED KILL BUTTON
I'm realy sick of this mechanics that you just have to fight someone till death, I don't want to kill people, I want to kick them in the face and send to a hospital, I want them to get angry and hunt me down, how can he do that if he's dead, and how will I know it's him if he rerolled. It's just stupid, having to kill people because there is no other option.
Oh and yeah, I wanna be a bounty hunter in a game where there is actualy a need for them and yes, I want PD so I DON'T kill people, because killing someone when it has no consequences is a no brainer, but killing someone when it means he will lose it all is a big deal.
Maybe I'm just naive but I realy don't think that everyone is a homocidal maniac waiting to kill everything that breaths, it's the lack of choice that makes us kill not the choice itself.