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I mean I have read alot of super hero comics when I was a kid and, from what I remember, the thing that was so special about super heroes is that they were SUPER heroes. Meaning they had awesome and in some cases god like powers and they were often quite rare.
But in this game everyone seem to be a lesser hero as there doesnt seemt to be anyone able to take down a super villain without a full group of super heroes. I mean one would think that at some level you would be strong enough to take on the biggest super villains but nope, even at level 50 you still need a full group to take down a super villain.
So are you really a SUPER hero in this game? I would say not but then again the title of the game is City of Heroes, not City of Super Heroes but it certainly have been advertised as a Super hero game and your character looks like a Super Hero but is he one, really?
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if i may...
I am currently playing CoH on the trial - I played a bit 2 yrs? ago as well...
And in short - other than the customes - CoH is; In My opinion;
FAR more an MMO than a superhero game.
name a comic-book character thats a heal-bot or a time you saw a super-group beat a villain BECAUSE the group got "good heals" ...
In short; i think its not so much about CoH - its about the assumption that all MMO's have to conform to a certain formula in order to have an audience.
Yeah you are right, this is not really a Super Hero MMORPG but rather a typical archtype Fantasy MMORPG with the healer, tank, dmg dealer, crowd controller looking like a Super Hero but not really being one.
And the reason is simple, Super Heroes cannot be divided into "archetypes" because they are so special in their nature. I mean take the most known Super Hero superman. He deals super damage both in melee and long range and he is a super tank. So in effect he is both a scrapper and a tank with a bit of a blaster in him.
Or lets say someone more complex like the Silver Surfer. Hm, super strong, super tank (almost impervious to damage) and can transform matter into energy to deal super high damage through beams. What archetype would he belong to?
Even someone as simple as Wolwerine isnt easily put in an archetype. A scrapper with claws would be the obvious choice but yet he has significant martial arts and sword fighting knowledge and you cant have three main scrapper powersets in one character.
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perhaps if the Devs had played more Champions and less WoW (or whatever)...
all jokes aside; game balance IS possible without class/level systems...
but i really think that was less the issue than the one already raised - money's involved so they went with what was known to work...
that really sums up how it seems to me.
Glad you added in the joking part after your comment about the creators needing to play less WoW, considering that WoW came out AFTER this game. Also, I know there are superheroes out there who are these amazing unstoppable forces (except when it comes to a green stone...so stupid), but even the mighty Superman is in a group called the Justice League. Hmm. And then there is the X-men. And the Fantastic Four. And the Avengers, and those blasted Teen Titans ( ). Even Spidey was on the Fantastic Four briefly (he wore the number 5), and also was a member of one of the various Avengers teams assembled. Add in X-factor and the New Mutants and the list goes on and on. The point I'm making here is unless you are reading a "filler" issue in which nothing overly important happens, you will find superheroes teaming up with one another to stop the next "Galactus" attack from occuring. So I don't think this game is far fetched in that right. And there are in game ways of knowing who is powerful and who isn't (though I will admit there could be more). Travel powers, capes, titles, and supergroups all allow for this. I will admit that it does cover up the fantasy archetypes with other names and puts twists on them, but as someone stated above (sad but true), that developers have to try and follow this unwritten formula to keep the masses happy.
Keep in mind this is an MMO. If everyone could run around soloing why not keep it offline? If everyone could be the MOST unique super uber buffed totaly kick ass character then no one would team, and really where would be the thrill? I always see people complaining "I wanted to make my character totally unique like with super powers I chose!!!" You know what... Go play a single player offline game. CoH is one of the few MMOs that offer the MOST character uniqueness. I don't think people appreciate that. I don't think this is a contradiction because look at the move "The Incredibles". Think of that as CoH. They couldn't solo the damn robot in the end by themselves. They used TEAM WORK. And I think the real super hero part is most conveyed in pvp. Then you can show how good your built hero actually is. So what if you can't solo AVs in pve? Show off in pvp against someone else.
You two have completely missed the point. The point is not that there shouldn be all powerful classes that can solo everything and everywhere, but rather that the hero you make should be both Super and unique/special.
That doesnt mean that you could do everything in your own, because most typical Super Heroes like Superman, couldnt either. But they were still unique and special in their own way. And they certainly had the ability to, and did, fight super villains on their own. Not saying that any Super Hero fought Galactus single handedly but how many fights did we see between Spiderman and The Green Goblin? Wolverine and Sabretooth? Superman and Brainiac. And those groups of Super Heroes that you mentioned most of the time fought other groups of Super Villains and were often evenly matched.
Anyway, my point is that Super Heroes in this game arent anything special really. You hit the level cap quite quickly and they really never let your character turn into a Super Hero.
Also what has happened in this game is that they have put the traditional fantasy MMORPG archetypes, tank, melee dmg dealer, nuker, healer and crowdcontroller and made them look like a Super Heroes when they really are just the same thing you would find in any traditional fantasy MMORPG. Appereance is the only difference and you really cant put Super Heroes into so strict class system as in this game. Heck even Wolverine which is what you would think is the typical Scrapper can't be correctly portrayed in this game because even inside an archetype the choice if powers are so rigid which makes it next to impossible to create unique Super Heroes (besides their appereance).
And PvP has really nothing to do with this. Most MMORPGs have PvP and CoHs is nothing special and certainly doesnt transform your tank, nuker or whatever into a Super Hero.
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We didn't miss your point. And you repeated things that have been said. And you say the archetypes are EXACTLY the same as in fantasy MMOs. Not true. Show me a fantasy cleric that uses ice to attack, or a warrior that can hover above the ground. I'm not arguing or anything like that, I'm just not seeing what you want here. You have to keep in mind that this is a city that is literally filled with superheroes, whereas the cities in the comics have one or two, or simply a team of superheroes protecting them. As far as uniqueness most of the comic book heroes nowadays have elements that have been taken from other superheroes (IE X-23; cloned "daughter" of Wolverine, has two claws on each hand and one on each foot). There are only so many travel powers, only so many fighting powers. So whats left? Lore and cosmetics. And CoH and CoV for that matter does a hell of a job at letting you be your own story.
Ah, so we come to the heart of the matter. Every super hero/villian should be a unique snowflake that can solo any archtype if they so choose but at the same time be able to provide a unique playing experiences with other unique heroes/villians. At the same time, these heroes should be able to handle any super villian without help.
There is a difficulty option built into the game. Put it to the max and there will be mostly bosses and Lt. in each group, a named boss at the end will be either an elite boss or an archvillian/hero. Those require groups to take down. Put it to the lowest setting and named bosses will be either elite boss or boss level. There are exeptions but treat those as Galacticus, you'll need a team.
Yamota also says that Super Heroes cannot be divided into archtypes due to "special" nature. I'll disagree, We can Generalize anything. Superman, I'd say he's a Inv/SS tank with Energy Mastery. Power Pools would be Flight, Speed, Fitness and Leadership.
Silver Surfer = Energy/Energy blaster
You may not be able to have 3 main scrapper power sets but you can have temp powers. Sands of Mu for martial arts and Iron Blade or Claymore for the sword. You see we are restricted with the environment that the developers have. Sure we'd like them to go outside the box but this is the world they created.
You probably want a skills based game, instead of a game with classes. CoH started that way but the developers changed their mind early on. The weakness in a skill based one is that there will be the "uber template". Whether this is true or not. They feared that everyone would take the same skills due to the fact that those skills would be too good to pass up. The power pool is as close as you could get to the skill leveling. Guess what, most people take the fitness pool because stamina is great. Do they need the fitness pool? No, but it makes life a lot easier, the slots you'd use for end are now replaced with acc or dam.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
In terms of character customization I think this game pretty much nails the Super Hero feel. I love being able to mix and match powers sets, and further tweak things with the general abilities. I have no problem with the archetypes. In fact I think it's better than a system where you could just design anything (ala GURPS Supers if anyone remembers that) becuase it makes it harder to gimp your character and ensures that you will have a useful role in a party. The character design system is by far the best I've ever seen in an MMO.
However, what this game does not nail, in my opinion, is how "super" you feel once you hit the streets. For example, I would not expect a street thug to pose much of a challenge for any hero. However in CoH gang bangers with pipes and handguns are fully capable of giving you thrashing if you go into the wrong zone. That always seemed silly to me. I'm not saying every character should be as powerful as Super Man or Iron Man from level one. But Daredevil or the Punisher? Yeah, I would think so.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Well maybe you guys didnt miss my point but rather choose to ignore it.
Silver Surfer a fragile blaster? You do realise that Silver Surfer was next to impervious to almost every damage type?
Superman a tank? Superman could inflict ALOT of damage, tanks in this game are medium damage dealers. He also had special powers like being able to fly close to speed of light and could see through walls, and see long distances.. should I go on?
Similar with the Hulk. Almost impervious to damage but also a huge damage dealer. So much that he hit Onslaught so hard to make him lose his physical form. Super Heroes simply cannot be put in archetypes, they arent healers, nukers, crowd controllers and tanks they are SUPER Heroes.
Also, if AVs are super beings like Galactus then where are the other Super Villains? Where are Super Villains like Sabretooth? Juggernaut? Magneto?
Maybe EXCACTLY isnt the word to use but archetypes in this game is almost excactly like archetypes in fantasy mmorpgs. A cleric with damage dealing capabilities are a common sight in most fantasy mmorpg, not sure why it has to be ice damage. What has that got to do with anything? But to deny that this game isnt strongly , if not entirely, based on fantasy archetypes is just lying to yourself and to others.
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What you are talking about is a skills based system. A system where the player picks a set of skills and works on them. That's not how CoX is designed. The reason, because the developers were afraid of the Ubar template. The set of skills that everyone would pick so that they make the Superman. There would not be room for the players who want to play the support characters. There would be no point to grouping.
That is why CoX and many other MMO's have the Tank, the Buffer, the DPS, The Mezzer, the Debuffer. On their own they lack the ability to be the Ubar build, it encourages people to group up, but they are not gimped enough so that they can not solo (well, controllers are pretty low on the DPS so I don't recommend soloing them.)
Now lets take your example that comic book heroes are "to complex" to be generalized. Any game based on an established genre can not hope to capture the complexity that the characters they portray. Legolis is not just an archer, he's also swift and agile, great with a sword. A DPS? but wait...he's more complex then that. What about Gimli...he's great with an axe...he can take a beating...a tank! but wait he's more complex. What's Frodo? See what I'm getting at? It's not just the Super Hero genre that is mis-represented or lacking in the actual skills they can do all games that have been created does not reach the expectation you want.
As for the super villains. Have you been through the Hollows and did the story arc that lead to Frostfire? Have you noticed there are named bosses in some of these story arcs? Patient Zero, the villain who leads up to Doc Vahz (An AV)? The other super villains, the ones that are the heroes opposites exist in game. The average hero exist on CoV as well; When doing a mayhem mission on the villain side, if your not in a full or near full group, you are stopped by a normal hero. I recall one called Discharge who appears to stop you. The villains also have non-Galacticus level heroes they fight. They are the named ones in the story lines.
If you want the Galacticus level mobs, that would be any character dubbed a Giant Monster, and the AVs.
So, to wrap this up. You are a Super hero/villian in the world of CoX. But you are limited to the computer environment that the developers found that many people can relate to and to the existing programming that is out there. They wanted balance, so the option to select any powers was sacrificed so that players choose 1 primary and 1 secondary.
Edit: and if you think blasters are fragile...My monkey has something to say about that. (Pyropithicus - fire/energy/cold) He can take a beating. Not like a tank or a scrapper, but he not as fragile as you'd think. If you want to set up a time on the test server, I'll give it a go
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
Lets be honest here.
If you know comics then its pretty simple.
You don't get to make a Superman or Thor in this game. Your toon in this game is basically a member of the West Coast Avengers. Not the first string power houses like Captain America or Namor, but together they can get the job done.
And just for the record, there are no heal-bots or 1337 H3ALZ0RS on my teams. If the defender just set heal aura on auto and expects a "good heals" from me, they get kicked.
The defenders entire seconday powerset is blasts. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they can do damage.
its only a game...
and if they gave you god like power whats the point, they could just make a single player rpg then
The Hellions pratice pagan and devil worship to gain power over fire
The Outcasts are mutant powered criminals wielding fire, ice, earth, and lighting
The Trolls are super-powered drug addicts
and these are just a few of them. No hero starting out should be able to defeat every thug they come across, even Spiderman and Batman lost to the bad guys their first time out. Eventually, they learned from their mistakes and gotten to the point that the same thugs can't beat them as easily as before.
The problem with the OP and such is that they want their character to be able to be unique like Superman. However, Kal-el is rather unique Himself. The game addresses this by calling certain npc's the "incarnate" of an archtype. Statesman is a "tanker incarnate" meaning that he is technically just an invuln/ss tanker BUT he is the most powerful one of his kind. For the villains, Lord Recluse is "just" a mastermind but he is the most powerful of his archtype. That is why he is an Archvillian rather that just a "mastermind boss".
Continuing the Superman example, he was not alone. Supergirl, the dog (uh Krypto?), Mala (from animated series), etc were all kryptonians. Yet, Superman was more powerful than they were. Why? While they others were "just kryptonians" he was Superman. The various tv series and comics always made that distinction.
Of course you have to make the game playable for as many people as possible and sometimes comic-logic, as it were, has to take a back seat. An example in EQ1 was iksar, cold-blooded lizardmen, that could function just fine in icy zones. They couldn't punish players by having their toon fall over and die everytime they went to a zone that was too cold now could they?
Also if you notice as your hero progresses you face more dangerous villains. Early on you are fighting street gangs mostly, who have limited powers to use against you. Later on you're facing hi-tech merc groups, psycho psionic chicks and extra-dimension superpowered villains. If you think about it early on in Batman's career he mostly squared off against street thugs, then the mob, later on the various notable villains.
At beginning, i mean, during I2 I3 and even I4, a single tanker could kill alone an entire map, Arch-villain included. I remember herding and entire Crystal Titan trial map, full of DE, with my HP bar not moving at all. It was fun just one or maybe two times, after that where is the fun without a challenge?
I understand what you mean, but u seems forgot that in comics every superhero, is super compared to the rest of humanity, not the enemies and that, every super heores have his weakness points (kryptonite for Superman, ie).
So, i don't see your point correct, in my opinion. Super heroes are really super for all the Paragon citizens, unfortunately some villains got strange power somewhere....
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this is really more of an MMO then anything. Look at EQ. Look at City of Heroes. Raids, Instances, levels, classes (aka archetypes), xp debt, and roles (healer, warrior, mage). Its all there
It follows the traditional MMO style.
as far as soloing bosses single handedly that would be interresting.
they got somethings right though., I mean, you can make original costumes and some of the powers are really similar to comics.
And if you played MUA (Marvel ultimate alliance) we had buff types (Ms Marvel), blaster types (johnny storm), and up close brutes like Collosos. so CoH did get somethings right.
I know this was a joke, and I also know computer technology isn't to the point where a Champions MMO would be possible, but Champions was the game. I absolutely loved the limitless ability to customize you had in that game. Instead of specific attacks, defenses, skills, etcetera, you just had effects that you could describe any way you wanted to. Put some points into Ranged Attack or Ranged Killing Attack and say it's an ice blast, a fire blast, a handgun, or anything you want. Group enough powers together of a similar sort that fit the concept, and you even got a discount on the points it cost you. Advantages, disadvantages, everything you could conceive could be made if you had enough points. The only problem was that there were so very many possibilities that it could be intimidating to get started. I absolutely loved that game. Sure, CoX couldn't conceivably give that level of freedom in character creation today, but wouldn't it be great if it could? Maybe in twenty years.
I still remember playing a character who was literally insane. She believed she was the Grim Reaper. She wasn't "psychotic insane." She never actually got around to killing anyone, she was just plain schizoid. She walked around in the billowing black cloak, she carried the scythe, and she'd go into MacDonald's that way and order a hamburger. Unfortunately, she also had a mixture of telepathy and shapechanging abilities that sort of did their own things. If the clerk dared to forget "the reaper's" extra ketchup, she'd search said clerk's mind for their deepest fear and then turn into it. Then she'd get her ketchup and go, being sure to leave exact change in the wrong country's currency on the counter. Good times.
...I know this was a joke...
No it wasn't a joke...
It was said in a (hopefully) humorous way. Another poster pointed out the power sets could be chosen Without an archetype
(optional archetypes of pre-chosen power sets - like "kits" in old 2nd AD&D - would be great for new players intro characters).
I expect you are right - they couldn't support the amount of choices of Hero System per se - but I was focusing on more that altho i DID enjoy CoH for a bit; I DIDN'T enjoy it BECAUSE it was Genre... but rather despite it.
The whole game felt TO ME like just another fantasy MMO; but with different skins and backgrounds.
I just don't think the Devs captured much of a superheroic FEEL -
whether thats REALLY because they only had fantasy game experience to base it on.. or becasue they were told to play it safe by the people holding the purse strings; I of course have no idea.
The original concept for character advancement was much more open ended. However that was before Jack emmert (aka statesman)became lead designer. The reason given at the time given for moving to arch types was that internal testing showed that the open ended system actually narrowed choice selection as people chose power types that produced "tank mages" (invulnerable/hard hitting/ranged characters). While this may in part of been true; there has been indication that the previous lead designer (Mac) was unsucessful in being able to manage the development team into meshing their work into a completed project. As a result COH extended their release and made "Jack" the lead desighner who stream lined the character creation into it's current form based on the arch types of the common MMOS at the time.
I know this was a joke, and I also know computer technology isn't to the point where a Champions MMO would be possible, but Champions was the game. I absolutely loved the limitless ability to customize you had in that game. Instead of specific attacks, defenses, skills, etcetera, you just had effects that you could describe any way you wanted to. Put some points into Ranged Attack or Ranged Killing Attack and say it's an ice blast, a fire blast, a handgun, or anything you want. Group enough powers together of a similar sort that fit the concept, and you even got a discount on the points it cost you. Advantages, disadvantages, everything you could conceive could be made if you had enough points. The only problem was that there were so very many possibilities that it could be intimidating to get started. I absolutely loved that game. Sure, CoX couldn't conceivably give that level of freedom in character creation today, but wouldn't it be great if it could? Maybe in twenty years.
I still remember playing a character who was literally insane. She believed she was the Grim Reaper. She wasn't "psychotic insane." She never actually got around to killing anyone, she was just plain schizoid. She walked around in the billowing black cloak, she carried the scythe, and she'd go into MacDonald's that way and order a hamburger. Unfortunately, she also had a mixture of telepathy and shapechanging abilities that sort of did their own things. If the clerk dared to forget "the reaper's" extra ketchup, she'd search said clerk's mind for their deepest fear and then turn into it. Then she'd get her ketchup and go, being sure to leave exact change in the wrong country's currency on the counter. Good times.
city of heroes was/is still a masterpiece but this Champions. That sounds really awesome. I know this is a PnP but I do love PnP/Comics/books etc. So I will look into sounds like I system I'd really love. I thank you so much for this good post this is why I like coming here such a good community
hm, yeah I was crushed when I saw they went with Classes. I was soooooooo excited about CoX. but then I saw they released with no PVP and Classes I got really discouraged and ignored the title for years. I hope the future upcoming superhero MMOs will go freeform like they originally planned
If u go to their site then u can see the 'old' system they dumped. you could develop your toons freeform. sure it woulda gotten abused but then personally id been soooooo much happier. CoX is just so min/max anyway i dont see how it could hurt. maybe it woulda hurt them i cant argue that
but for me- I woulda just loved the skill based system they originally announced.
still a goood game true but i jsut wish they took more chances. sorry not trying to ruin the good vibe happening here guys I subbed for a year to this excellent MMO
minor correction to what I said before. I dont know how it is in the comics for Ms Marvel and Spiderwoman. I am not sure if they can buff. But i think its logical that a hero can heal you and buff others. I really think they did a remarkable job. I mean I really felt like a superman. I really felt like the Hulk with my brute.
sometimes I was oputright overpowered in PVP. my fury would soar. sure, maybe those heroes I slayed were mostly all newbies true for helping me build fury but it was just so much fun just 2 shooting squishies. and this was pre-fury buff with my EM/ELA brute
I really felt like my character was a "she-hulk". I really miss my avatar
The original lead dev was Rick Dakan. He was fired in an internal shake-up that aimed to get CoH on shelves in a workable format; Jack Emmert, who had been lead creative designer, took over the lead dev role at that point.
As has been stated the freeform system that was the original plan for CoH fell apart as their testers either went for the uber character (max offense and max defence) or completely gimped themselves (all their points went into flying or something else that was just as silly). This was also closer to the time of UO's Tank Mage, which was seen as a potential game killer. If you want to go through it, there are some articles where Jack discusses the various options he considered to replace the freeform system, but the AT system just worked out the best in his opinion.
I too would have preferred the freeform system, but I understand that a character creation system that irrepairably gimps characters during character creation is one that is going to drive players away in droves. As it stands, the AT system does give a lot of flexibility to characters and hopefully this flexibility will increase as more powersets are released (next up: Dual Swords and Willpower).
they just added profile for "The Warriors":
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/loadNews/8666
they dont appear to have super powers at all. I guess they honed their skills to such a level they can fight regular superheroes? like u know you can be a Natural Martial Arts/SR scrapper and u still hang in there wit some villains
maybe what they should've perhaps looked into was have more mobs to make ppl feel more 'super'. anyway I felt super at times when my /kin and brute soloed 8 man extremne difficulty missions together. but then i would feel flimsy if i got stunned. darn squishies heh