yeah, and another thing we can start doing, is give out free levels, for no reason at all.. like every 4th lv you get the 5th for free.. or just have an auto level.. or start characters at cap (that actually seems like what they are doing with death knight in WoW). maybe just put an auto level button in the UI, so those people who have no time to play can still keep up
A wee bit of hyperbole..
First and foremost rest XP is capped and second of all you don't gain AA's or skillpoints from it either. It's safe to say those who play quite frequently have nothing to fear.
On a side note...one should be careful of generalizations. Should we just assume those who have 4-5 hours daily to play video games are loosers with no jobs who live in their mothers basement?
Of course not...
Simply put rest xp is a simple incentive to keep those with a busy real life subscribing nothing more.
This is why I like the way LOTRO does rested XP. After a full night of me away from the PC I may come back to 2000XP (at 17th level) in a virtual buffer. I don't get that all at once, but if I kill a critter for 100xp (to make the math easy) I'll instead earn 110xp of 120xp. I still have to play to get it, but until I run out of that 2k buffer I'm earning slightly more XP. This lets me keep up/catch up with my kinship/friends without giving me something I completely didn't earn. Many people reading this thread don't seem to realize that this is the rested exp we're talking about. We don't mean EVE's system, and we don't mean instant free exp. The rested exp system in WoW and LOTRO, and any other game with something similar is what we're referring to. It is a small bonus that you must put to use yourself. It's just another little thing to make the grind feel like less of a grind. And it seems to work.
Originally posted by jahar my point has nothing to do wiht hardcore players, or them not getting it too.. its just, why make easy games easier? And i understand how its a bonus.. we always take the path of least resistance, its in our nature.. but why do you need free stuff? its like saying it would be cool if you didn't play for 3 days, they just give you a free level. it's what the yare doing, really If you really think that something with such minimal impact is a problem with 'Game X', you should consider the numerous other aspects of the game that make it too 'easy'. Especially when the game is developed with rested exp in mind and exp gain is simply scaled to suit it.
Originally posted by RedwoodSap
Rest experience is another dummy down phenomenon of late. It makes no sense logically to gain an advantage for doing nothing.
Stop making these games easier, I want to be challenged. You don't deserve more experience for participating less.
It doesn't make sense that a character should require rest and benefit from it? I like a challenge as well. However, I do not consider mindlessly grinding away for hours on end to be a positive challenge. That's just tedium, which is indeed challenging in it's own way. A good type of challenge comes with powerful NPC's, balanced PvP, player character limitations, and other like aspects.
In short of reducing the rediculous ammount of progression from min to max, I think that rested XP is the next best choice.
It encourages people to take breaks from the game, helps casuals keep up with friends and it makes a great deal of sense in game for a well rested person to be able to learn faster.
Rested XP could also work for level or skill based games, I think it is a great idea and should become a feature in any game that wants to go the XP route of advancement.
- - -
What I don't understand is how some people get that Rested XP will make MMOGs easier, MMOGs are not that hard and they never were, most of it is just common sense.
Unless they are gauging challenge by time sinks, but just because something requires a lot of time to do doesn't make it hard. It would be like counting to one million, it's not hard but it is time consuming.
Like Dippy said, more challenge in MMOGs should come in the form of smarter AI, puzzles and situations that make you think.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I like rested experience in current games, but i don't want it in future games, why? simple.
They have rested experience because the games are full of grind, and more grind, sometimes they have pvp like in wow, the rested experience helps keep everyone at the same levels and helps elevate some of the timesink( grind ) mentality you get from it.
I'd rather they concentrate on making games that don't have huge obvious timesinks in them, instead of adding the quick fix that rested experience is. Like a well thought out skill based system, or what pirates of the burning sea is going to do where even a level 1 will be able to contribute to the game so they don't feel useless and get into the idea that you have to level to have fun, thus leveling or skilling up becomes a chore.
Another problem not directly related to rest experience but ill mention it anyway is this current focus on quest only games, like lord of the rings for example.
They basically force you to have to quest to gain levels, although the quests are well written, they are let down by the fact its still go kill x of this y of that, etc, so having to do that constantly with no real alternative feels like a grind. if there were more options to effectively level at the same pace as just questing then i bet the game would of been much more successful than it is.
Although its vapour tbh, the idea Darkfall has for its world is that theres no levels its all skill based, so you can go anywhere at the start of the game and not be hampered by artificial barriers ( levels etc) this means you can choose what you want to do, so you want to quest, go do that, want to kill mobs you can, want to pvp you can, want to craft etc you can, and get equally rewarded for it. Since you aren't forced to do anything, its not grinding.
This is what all mmos of the future should aim for, providing lots of choices and maintaining the equal rewards for them so you don't get into the grind mentality constantly and things like rested experience wont be needed.
Are you serious?. You really want rested xp? This is like boting. It ruins your game. Im a casual player but I dont want a game who gives me xp for not playing. I want to get xp in exchange for my gameplay. Boy this is not your real life, is a game you dont need to be up to anhbody, you just need to have fun playing. Ear is what you are asking for: You reach levels without playing -> you loose a lot of mid-range content that will be fun to play You level faster -> you reach end game content faster probably not knowing how to manage your race/class as good as hardcore players Becouse of that you are in disvantage you will probably get kicked of some raids You may dont get enought money for your gear becouse you are getting xp without playing. Remember you get money while playing. Will you ask for rested money then? Or will you search a gold seller? You get bored of game faster -> buy another game If you dont want to loose time leveling, play an fps. An mmorpg is about creating and leveling a character and your experience while you level your character.
I can't speak for everyone but personally I enjoy end game content more than the level-up content of WoW. I already grinded in EQ for 4 years with many characters, and I have a very good grasp on how to play just about any given raid role. So the "you don't learn your character" theory is out the window. It's not that I hate questing & grinding..but I like raiding and PvP more and have more fun at max level. Therefore rest xp benefits my playstyle a lot more.
As you said, You already grinded for 4 years, so you know how to play any given raid role.
yeah, and another thing we can start doing, is give out free levels, for no reason at all.. like every 4th lv you get the 5th for free.. or just have an auto level.. or start characters at cap (that actually seems like what they are doing with death knight in WoW). maybe just put an auto level button in the UI, so those people who have no time to play can still keep up
er...actually DAOC started doing exactly this about 3 years ago.... to help more casual players they could get a free level every 5 days for every one earned..... I recently used it myself to quickly level 4 characters up to 50 in a short period of time.... won't hear about anyone complaining about the feature...
But if they do, DAOC offers players the option to decline the free levels, even turn off earning experience if they so chose (and some do) so I think having things like rested bonus and bonus levels are fine as long as players can turn them off if they want to.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by healz4uOriginally posted by x_rast_x
Sure, you'll never catch up in skill points to someone who's been playing longer than you
I believe that is one of the reasons, et al., I disliked EVE as much as I did. I do not like games, although I do not necessarily aspire to be the best, where I cannot "catch up" to players who have "been playing longer" than me. I do not try to play the fastest at the mostest but I also like the concept of the possibility of being able to eventually "catch up" to other players. This is the most persistently idiotic criticism of eve. It assumes that you can not play any MMO game unless you can catch up, which basical means an endgame level cap. It is based in ignorance of the gameplay in EvE and Based on a style of gameplay and game desighn that is completly unlike EvEs structure.
if you pick one area of expertese, you can easily catch up with someone who has been playing since beta.
on topic, i have never and will never play a game with an xp grind.
Easy there Tex..... while Healz doesn't really understand how the skill point system really works in EVE, no reason to infer that someone is an idiot or ignorant for not comprehending it.
The original quote from x_rast_x should have read "Sure, you'll never catch up in total skill points (laterally) to someone who's been playing longer than you, however this is irrelevant because you can easily catch up to any player vertically (due to the 5 level cap on all skills, and the finite number of skills any particular ship/role requires to achieve maximum proficiency)
And because all posts should stay on topic (or at least end there) I think WOW's rested XP plan is well balanced, LotRO's I found to be a bit too easy, I actually wanted to stop leveling while I was trying to grind out my deeds and the rested exp was making the kills level me faster than I wanted to.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Rested XP for the win. IF implemented correctly, rested XP can really add a lot of value to a game (see many of the previous posts in this thread)
MMO's should be designed to reward skillful play NOT time played. I won't make the generalization that people with 4-5 hours of playtime per day are unemployed and living in their parents basements, but I will say that a game should not be designed to reward that kind of obsession and no game should require that level of time commitment to be competitive.
To keep a "hardcore" (i hate that label, sorry) player happy, the game simply has to have some design mechanic that helps differentiate the more skilled players OR the more dedicated players (i.e. most hours played) from the rest of us casuals that embrace rested XP as a way to "keep up with the Joneses".
A lot of MMO's have some sort of "faction grind" or some lengthy quest lines that do reward the players that have the time to grind them out. As long as end-game content rewards skillful play, the rewards there should help serve as another differentiator. As long as the content is well designed and challenging enough, it should be easy to tell who leveled up the hard way, who leveled up at 200% the regular rate with rested XP, and who bought their toon off of e-bay last night.
Dark age of camelot does this lol... Every one every 7 days gets a free level until lvl 47. If your realm is underpopulated in the server you get a level every 3 days.
Eudemons also do this... When you log off an dhave Gods/Star Blessing you can go to offline training grounds.
I also agree. I enjoy CoX now and then, but take long breaks after a month or so of play. The grind after level 30 or so gets pretty intense. Most of the people I know who play also play very casually. Rested XP would go a long way in motivating people to maintain a sub and play on a regular basis, I think.
Haha see I dont get it, Ive played so many MMO's but CoX has always been so easy to me, the only game ive ever reached maxed level (but then again there is no 'max' level in EVE)
I always thought it was a good idea that WoW and EQ2 implemented this in their games. Several players, like myself, are casual whether by choice ..or we just work/school a lot. Everyone still pays the standard monthly price so I believe everyone should get their moneys worth. Besides, hardcore players will still always reach the top first, regardless of rest xp.
I prefer geting more xp if i kill faster or if i kill more dangerous enemy or having a good xp reward while grouping with other people.
Geting Rest Xp is like staying at home and wait for the gouvernement check every month !!!!
Comments
A wee bit of hyperbole..
First and foremost rest XP is capped and second of all you don't gain AA's or skillpoints from it either. It's safe to say those who play quite frequently have nothing to fear.
On a side note...one should be careful of generalizations. Should we just assume those who have 4-5 hours daily to play video games are loosers with no jobs who live in their mothers basement?
Of course not...
Simply put rest xp is a simple incentive to keep those with a busy real life subscribing nothing more.
Dutchess Zarraa Voltayre
Reborn/Zero Sum/Ancient Legacy/Jagged Legion/Feared/Nuke & Pave.
In short of reducing the rediculous ammount of progression from min to max, I think that rested XP is the next best choice.
It encourages people to take breaks from the game, helps casuals keep up with friends and it makes a great deal of sense in game for a well rested person to be able to learn faster.
Rested XP could also work for level or skill based games, I think it is a great idea and should become a feature in any game that wants to go the XP route of advancement.
- - -
What I don't understand is how some people get that Rested XP will make MMOGs easier, MMOGs are not that hard and they never were, most of it is just common sense.
Unless they are gauging challenge by time sinks, but just because something requires a lot of time to do doesn't make it hard. It would be like counting to one million, it's not hard but it is time consuming.
Like Dippy said, more challenge in MMOGs should come in the form of smarter AI, puzzles and situations that make you think.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
I like rested experience in current games, but i don't want it in future games, why? simple.
They have rested experience because the games are full of grind, and more grind, sometimes they have pvp like in wow, the rested experience helps keep everyone at the same levels and helps elevate some of the timesink( grind ) mentality you get from it.
I'd rather they concentrate on making games that don't have huge obvious timesinks in them, instead of adding the quick fix that rested experience is. Like a well thought out skill based system, or what pirates of the burning sea is going to do where even a level 1 will be able to contribute to the game so they don't feel useless and get into the idea that you have to level to have fun, thus leveling or skilling up becomes a chore.
Another problem not directly related to rest experience but ill mention it anyway is this current focus on quest only games, like lord of the rings for example.
They basically force you to have to quest to gain levels, although the quests are well written, they are let down by the fact its still go kill x of this y of that, etc, so having to do that constantly with no real alternative feels like a grind. if there were more options to effectively level at the same pace as just questing then i bet the game would of been much more successful than it is.
Although its vapour tbh, the idea Darkfall has for its world is that theres no levels its all skill based, so you can go anywhere at the start of the game and not be hampered by artificial barriers ( levels etc) this means you can choose what you want to do, so you want to quest, go do that, want to kill mobs you can, want to pvp you can, want to craft etc you can, and get equally rewarded for it. Since you aren't forced to do anything, its not grinding.
This is what all mmos of the future should aim for, providing lots of choices and maintaining the equal rewards for them so you don't get into the grind mentality constantly and things like rested experience wont be needed.
I can't speak for everyone but personally I enjoy end game content more than the level-up content of WoW. I already grinded in EQ for 4 years with many characters, and I have a very good grasp on how to play just about any given raid role. So the "you don't learn your character" theory is out the window. It's not that I hate questing & grinding..but I like raiding and PvP more and have more fun at max level. Therefore rest xp benefits my playstyle a lot more.
As you said, You already grinded for 4 years, so you know how to play any given raid role.
er...actually DAOC started doing exactly this about 3 years ago.... to help more casual players they could get a free level every 5 days for every one earned..... I recently used it myself to quickly level 4 characters up to 50 in a short period of time.... won't hear about anyone complaining about the feature...But if they do, DAOC offers players the option to decline the free levels, even turn off earning experience if they so chose (and some do) so I think having things like rested bonus and bonus levels are fine as long as players can turn them off if they want to.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I believe that is one of the reasons, et al., I disliked EVE as much as I did. I do not like games, although I do not necessarily aspire to be the best, where I cannot "catch up" to players who have "been playing longer" than me. I do not try to play the fastest at the mostest but I also like the concept of the possibility of being able to eventually "catch up" to other players. This is the most persistently idiotic criticism of eve. It assumes that you can not play any MMO game unless you can catch up, which basical means an endgame level cap. It is based in ignorance of the gameplay in EvE and Based on a style of gameplay and game desighn that is completly unlike EvEs structure.if you pick one area of expertese, you can easily catch up with someone who has been playing since beta.
on topic, i have never and will never play a game with an xp grind.
Easy there Tex..... while Healz doesn't really understand how the skill point system really works in EVE, no reason to infer that someone is an idiot or ignorant for not comprehending it.
The original quote from x_rast_x should have read "Sure, you'll never catch up in total skill points (laterally) to someone who's been playing longer than you, however this is irrelevant because you can easily catch up to any player vertically (due to the 5 level cap on all skills, and the finite number of skills any particular ship/role requires to achieve maximum proficiency)
And because all posts should stay on topic (or at least end there) I think WOW's rested XP plan is well balanced, LotRO's I found to be a bit too easy, I actually wanted to stop leveling while I was trying to grind out my deeds and the rested exp was making the kills level me faster than I wanted to.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Rested XP for the win. IF implemented correctly, rested XP can really add a lot of value to a game (see many of the previous posts in this thread)
MMO's should be designed to reward skillful play NOT time played. I won't make the generalization that people with 4-5 hours of playtime per day are unemployed and living in their parents basements, but I will say that a game should not be designed to reward that kind of obsession and no game should require that level of time commitment to be competitive.
To keep a "hardcore" (i hate that label, sorry) player happy, the game simply has to have some design mechanic that helps differentiate the more skilled players OR the more dedicated players (i.e. most hours played) from the rest of us casuals that embrace rested XP as a way to "keep up with the Joneses".
A lot of MMO's have some sort of "faction grind" or some lengthy quest lines that do reward the players that have the time to grind them out. As long as end-game content rewards skillful play, the rewards there should help serve as another differentiator. As long as the content is well designed and challenging enough, it should be easy to tell who leveled up the hard way, who leveled up at 200% the regular rate with rested XP, and who bought their toon off of e-bay last night.
Dark age of camelot does this lol... Every one every 7 days gets a free level until lvl 47. If your realm is underpopulated in the server you get a level every 3 days.
Eudemons also do this... When you log off an dhave Gods/Star Blessing you can go to offline training grounds.
Conquor Online is soon to have the same thing.
The Big MMORPG List
Haha see I dont get it, Ive played so many MMO's but CoX has always been so easy to me, the only game ive ever reached maxed level (but then again there is no 'max' level in EVE)
Geting Rest Xp is like staying at home and wait for the gouvernement check every month !!!!