They do this because they learned from DAoC that stealth classes tend to ruin the fun. I know it may be fun to pop out of nowhere and kill the solo mage running to their group for the stealthier, but not so much for the mage. It really does get old if you've played DAoC. I think they are also limiting crowd control because it feels like too big of a part of RvR in DAoC, and thats coming from a Pac Healer. They've definately learned a few lessons and I think the classes so far look very interesting and well thought out.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Great, so we agree stealth is very warhammer like.
If you consider less then 1% of the units found in warhammer can hide...
No stealth is not very warhammer like... in your face pound them till they are dead is very warhammer like.
The best you could claim is that hiding is in warhammer. Hidden models in units you can see... hidden units in rough terrain. They have that in WAR... if you are behind a tree we can't see you.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
That is a really good point Dreamer, and I guess that can goto help answer gibbonofdoom who suggested that ranged stleath might be put in still. He did make a qualification that it would only be defensive in nature to help stop abuse. To that, I think back to Midguard healers where AoE stun was given to them to help with thier defense. I felt sorry for all the albs and hibs for the next couple weeks before the first nerf becuase there was no stopping that move coupled with a couple good DPS classes.
Even if I feel Mythic dropped the ball with certain expansions, I do think they started out with one of the best PvP games made and have learned a heck of a lot. I look for WAR to be in very good shape.
To that, Stealth will be reserved to hiding in the forest and hiding behind buildings then sending one guy out and making them have a couple bad guys chase the solo guy back to the hiding spot for an ambush. If you look at it that way, every class can stealth so all the rogues can be happy again; everyone can have stealth like that
nice blog domina - it make sense - that this is the kind of battles that WAR is aiming at!
but i don't agree about your healing logic! in most games it like both sides healers have time for anything else than healing the battle is in a stalemate! If one side has healers with time for anything else , that side is clearly winning or at least holding its ground!
so if tanks, with taunts and collission detections and so on can give healers time to do something else than healing then how are one side to make kills if the other have plenty of time free to heal? The point is, its not the healing and damageprevention from the tank that gives healer time do anything else than heal That would just create a game balance where it would be to difficult to kill each other!
so the logic must be the other way around ! its the WAR speciality for healers that makes the difference - to be efficient as a healer you have to deal damage! And you newer as a healer have time to be anything but effecient at healing - meaning doing damage some of the time! And as light/medium armoured primary target you need protection and support as a damage dealer ! or you get killed!
Actually yes, you are correct. That was the point I should of made more clear in my blog post about healers. Next time i'll choose my words more carefully and not post it late at night >< after trolling the mmorpg.com forums lol.
Currently Playing: GW2 Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR
A Dark Elven Class might be stealthy, but it definately won't have Stealth.
"Huh?" you may ask, let me explain:
Being Stealthy, having Stealth abilities does not mean being able to turn Invisible, or barely visible. Being stealthy could simply mean that many attacks of yours will be more effective when you are behind your opponent, that your Skills won't have huge colourful Effect-Splashes above your head, but are more subtle, so that other People don't immediately recognize you as a particular threat.
A stealthy class maybe sneaks around the battlefield, behind your opponent to strike quickly.
There will definately NOT be ANY Class, EVER, which can turn invisble, move invisible or whatnot.
Unless you don't move carefully, you WILL be seen.
BTW: The Press Events of the GC already released two of the four Elven Classes, the Witch Elf and the Black Guard for Dark Elves, Melee DPS, Melee Tank, both aren't stealthy, and that leaves two ranged fighters/casters, which most probably won't be stealthy either. And High Elves with Stealth? C'mon ^_^
The excellent write-up by Raelimar over at Only-WAR had this useful insight to what Mythic was offering people who liked to play steathly characters
"You want to know what the stealth system is in this game? I’ll tell you – Only-WAR exclusive. It’s a freaking Squig Herder running around in a bush peppering my Ironbreaker with arrows coming from god knows where."
In other words, no pushing a button and getting instant Invisibility that requires Zero skill and Zero tactics to use while allowing you to grief someone with a cheap one-shot.
As Raelimar says in the rest of his post stealth in WAR will involve using your head and utilizing the terrain. This will greatly appeal to stealth players who like thinking and tactics and not appeal to stealth players who just want to stroke their egos without any effort.
The excellent write-up by Raelimar over at Only-WAR had this useful insight to what Mythic was offering people who liked to play steathly characters "You want to know what the stealth system is in this game? I’ll tell you – Only-WAR exclusive. It’s a freaking Squig Herder running around in a bush peppering my Ironbreaker with arrows coming from god knows where." http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16291 In other words, no pushing a button and getting instant Invisibility that requires Zero skill and Zero tactics to use while allowing you to grief someone with a cheap one-shot. As Raelimar says in the rest of his post stealth in WAR will involve using your head and utilizing the terrain. This will greatly appeal to stealth players who like thinking and tactics and not appeal to stealth players who just want to stroke their egos without any effort.
This is what I was going to point out.
While there will be no "invisible" stealth-ganking classes (the Lead Dev declared this unambiguously), there will be ample opportunities to use the terrain to one's advantage.
In my opinion, this is really the "true" form of stealth -- being sneaky and remaining out of sight until the proper moment for attack.
As for the Rogues/Assassin-type classes, again, I tend to feel that the "true" form of attack for these classes is from positional attacks -- and that is exactly what WAR will have.
I agree, a free-range stealth type is NOT needed in this game. Too many people have gotten used to the stealth abilities of rogues in World of Warcraft. It has really dumbed down the assassin's nature. The assassin in the conventional sense could not stealth out in the middle of a barren land. Assassins would wait for cover of darkness and use whatever cover available to circumvent and get into position of their target. If you need to see what a true assassin should be based on play "Theif: Deadly Shadows". As for the other classes, I'm just waiting in anticipation for the last four to be released. This game proves to be a very balanced yet fun PvP game one that I feel many people will be able to enjoy.
~~Internet gaming is not for the faint of heart or the dumb of mind.~~
Originally posted by Sykomyke It has really dumbed down the assassin's nature. The assassin in the conventional sense could not stealth out in the middle of a barren land.
This makes me laugh.
Why is it such a problem for people to deal with "stealthing" classes but they can cope with fireballs flying out of a wizards finger or a warrior spinning a sword in front of them and blocking arrows.
Dumbed down indeed. Dumbed down in respect to what? People like to throw around that "dumbed down" phrase but rarely back it up... I am sorry but it's not anymore "dumb" than it was in previous MMOs versus WoWs.
Just say you don't like stealth classes because they can sneak up on ya. It's simple as that. I've never played one as a main but they never caused me the life changing drama that it seems a lot of you folks have had here.
It has really dumbed down the assassin's nature. The assassin in the conventional sense could not stealth out in the middle of a barren land.
This makes me laugh.
Why is it such a problem for people to deal with "stealthing" classes but they can cope with fireballs flying out of a wizards finger or a warrior spinning a sword in front of them and blocking arrows.
Dumbed down indeed. Dumbed down in respect to what? People like to throw around that "dumbed down" phrase but rarely back it up... I am sorry but it's not anymore "dumb" than it was in previous MMOs versus WoWs.
Just say you don't like stealth classes because they can sneak up on ya. It's simple as that. I've never played one as a main but they never caused me the life changing drama that it seems a lot of you folks have had here.
I'd prefer not to post again in this topic but... I will refute your argument that is not backed up with anything more then just mere opinions of what others might like/dislike (which you have no evidence of); and your ideas on what should be in an MMO are based off of what another developer felt should be in their game. This game is DIFFERENT. Just because your used to having assassin classes stealth and be able to walk in front of your nose without you seeing them doesn't make it the norm.
As for wizards and warriors...well lets just say...that is their class. When you read about wizards in fantasy books you read about them conjuring up long-forgotten spells with mysterious power and enchanting and all that sort of dribble. When you read about warriors you read about them achieving heroic feats (I have never heard of a warrior spin that can deflect arrows but apparently you have) and legendary valour. When you read stealth action novels you read about assassins and rogues that steal, sneak, and backstab...but never about one that can sneak right in front of someones nose. That is what I mean in the conventional sense.
Dumbed down was only used to generalize what World of Warcraft has done to the rogue class. Rather then making it something that is interesting and viable in different situations they base nearly every skill on a rogue being in stealth to survive. You take away the invisibility and you find that you take away everything they have based that class upon.
~~Internet gaming is not for the faint of heart or the dumb of mind.~~
Originally posted by Josh_Mythic on the warhammer alliance site
Our current stealth system is actually entirely client-side and offers exactly the same quality of experience to EVERY career in the game. That's right. EVERYONE will be able to use stealth in exactly the same way.
The down side is that it will place additional hardware requirements into the min specs for the game, but hey, sacrifices must be made. We've worked with various notable hardware vendors to make sure things will work smoothly for nearly everyone, but you should still consult your manufacturer's documentation to make sure you're fully supported.
The basic way it will work is this:
- Login.
- Create the character of your choosing.
- Load up the game.
- Start running around, when you're ready to stealth, simply reach over and turn off your monitor.
- Continue playing, enjoying the awesome power of TOTAL INVISIBILITY.
Again, I can't stress enough the importance of checking the documentation for your particular hardware. MAKE SURE you have a monitor that can be turned off. The power switch may, in some cases, be a button. It may also be on the left or right side of the monitor or (though this is rare) somewhere in-between. We've had limited reports of power switches on the BACK or sides of monitors, but have been unable to replicate them in-house.
As a final work around if you simply can't find or operate the power switch, you can physically unplug the power cable from the monitor. Make sure you have the latest Service Pack installed beforehand.
I hope this clears things up and gets everyone super-excited about stealth!
Originally posted by atziluth I wish they would release the last 4 races so we can put this to bed once and for all.
Haha I agree with that.
Btw everyone I know they origionally said that there wasn't going to be any stealth, I just thought that the comment from the Q&A session was interesting. I was curious to the why they said "I know but I dont know if I can say. . .". Why not say "no" if there isn't something to it?
Paul did say no stealth. Twist it whatever way you want. Ex: He said there would be no stealth, but didn't say they would never ever consider it again and therefore they must be adding it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That said, i do believe that there will be ways to be stealthy in the game. From all game footage it looks like there is no auto lock or target nearest enemy button. That means that if your hiding behind a bush and attacking with a ranged weapon you wont immediately know where your "stealthed" attacker is. Also if some one runs up behind you, you wont just auto lock some one that is attacking you, giving them time to get in that good old back-stab.
While i am not sure about this sense i have not played the game, that is what it looks like to me.
Comments
They do this because they learned from DAoC that stealth classes tend to ruin the fun. I know it may be fun to pop out of nowhere and kill the solo mage running to their group for the stealthier, but not so much for the mage. It really does get old if you've played DAoC. I think they are also limiting crowd control because it feels like too big of a part of RvR in DAoC, and thats coming from a Pac Healer. They've definately learned a few lessons and I think the classes so far look very interesting and well thought out.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
No stealth is not very warhammer like... in your face pound them till they are dead is very warhammer like.
The best you could claim is that hiding is in warhammer. Hidden models in units you can see... hidden units in rough terrain. They have that in WAR... if you are behind a tree we can't see you.
-Atziluth-
- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity.
That is a really good point Dreamer, and I guess that can goto help answer gibbonofdoom who suggested that ranged stleath might be put in still. He did make a qualification that it would only be defensive in nature to help stop abuse. To that, I think back to Midguard healers where AoE stun was given to them to help with thier defense. I felt sorry for all the albs and hibs for the next couple weeks before the first nerf becuase there was no stopping that move coupled with a couple good DPS classes.
Even if I feel Mythic dropped the ball with certain expansions, I do think they started out with one of the best PvP games made and have learned a heck of a lot. I look for WAR to be in very good shape.
To that, Stealth will be reserved to hiding in the forest and hiding behind buildings then sending one guy out and making them have a couple bad guys chase the solo guy back to the hiding spot for an ambush. If you look at it that way, every class can stealth so all the rogues can be happy again; everyone can have stealth like that
nice blog domina - it make sense - that this is the kind of battles that WAR is aiming at!
but i don't agree about your healing logic! in most games it like both sides healers have time for anything else than healing the battle is in a stalemate! If one side has healers with time for anything else , that side is clearly winning or at least holding its ground!
so if tanks, with taunts and collission detections and so on can give healers time to do something else than healing then how are one side to make kills if the other have plenty of time free to heal? The point is, its not the healing and damageprevention from the tank that gives healer time do anything else than heal That would just create a game balance where it would be to difficult to kill each other!
so the logic must be the other way around ! its the WAR speciality for healers that makes the difference - to be efficient as a healer you have to deal damage! And you newer as a healer have time to be anything but effecient at healing - meaning doing damage some of the time! And as light/medium armoured primary target you need protection and support as a damage dealer ! or you get killed!
jon,
Actually yes, you are correct. That was the point I should of made more clear in my blog post about healers. Next time i'll choose my words more carefully and not post it late at night >< after trolling the mmorpg.com forums lol.
Currently Playing: GW2
Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR
The Aphelion MMO Blog - GW2 Initial Impressions
They've said time and time again that there won't be any stealth-class in the game; there will, however, be classes that use positional attacks.
Sorry 'Rogues' you'll actually have to stand up and fight in this game, rather than hiding.
Please link this article, because I never remember hearing that stealth would be in the game. Only that it would definitely not be in the game.
A Dark Elven Class might be stealthy, but it definately won't have Stealth.
"Huh?" you may ask, let me explain:
Being Stealthy, having Stealth abilities does not mean being able to turn Invisible, or barely visible. Being stealthy could simply mean that many attacks of yours will be more effective when you are behind your opponent, that your Skills won't have huge colourful Effect-Splashes above your head, but are more subtle, so that other People don't immediately recognize you as a particular threat.
A stealthy class maybe sneaks around the battlefield, behind your opponent to strike quickly.
There will definately NOT be ANY Class, EVER, which can turn invisble, move invisible or whatnot.
Unless you don't move carefully, you WILL be seen.
BTW: The Press Events of the GC already released two of the four Elven Classes, the Witch Elf and the Black Guard for Dark Elves, Melee DPS, Melee Tank, both aren't stealthy, and that leaves two ranged fighters/casters, which most probably won't be stealthy either. And High Elves with Stealth? C'mon ^_^
The excellent write-up by Raelimar over at Only-WAR had this useful insight to what Mythic was offering people who liked to play steathly characters
"You want to know what the stealth system is in this game? I’ll tell you – Only-WAR exclusive. It’s a freaking Squig Herder running around in a bush peppering my Ironbreaker with arrows coming from god knows where."
http://only-war.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16291
In other words, no pushing a button and getting instant Invisibility that requires Zero skill and Zero tactics to use while allowing you to grief someone with a cheap one-shot.
As Raelimar says in the rest of his post stealth in WAR will involve using your head and utilizing the terrain. This will greatly appeal to stealth players who like thinking and tactics and not appeal to stealth players who just want to stroke their egos without any effort.
This is what I was going to point out.
While there will be no "invisible" stealth-ganking classes (the Lead Dev declared this unambiguously), there will be ample opportunities to use the terrain to one's advantage.
In my opinion, this is really the "true" form of stealth -- being sneaky and remaining out of sight until the proper moment for attack.
As for the Rogues/Assassin-type classes, again, I tend to feel that the "true" form of attack for these classes is from positional attacks -- and that is exactly what WAR will have.
~ Ancient Membership ~
I agree, a free-range stealth type is NOT needed in this game. Too many people have gotten used to the stealth abilities of rogues in World of Warcraft. It has really dumbed down the assassin's nature. The assassin in the conventional sense could not stealth out in the middle of a barren land. Assassins would wait for cover of darkness and use whatever cover available to circumvent and get into position of their target. If you need to see what a true assassin should be based on play "Theif: Deadly Shadows". As for the other classes, I'm just waiting in anticipation for the last four to be released. This game proves to be a very balanced yet fun PvP game one that I feel many people will be able to enjoy.
~~Internet gaming is not for the faint of heart or the dumb of mind.~~
This makes me laugh.
Why is it such a problem for people to deal with "stealthing" classes but they can cope with fireballs flying out of a wizards finger or a warrior spinning a sword in front of them and blocking arrows.
Dumbed down indeed. Dumbed down in respect to what? People like to throw around that "dumbed down" phrase but rarely back it up... I am sorry but it's not anymore "dumb" than it was in previous MMOs versus WoWs.
Just say you don't like stealth classes because they can sneak up on ya. It's simple as that. I've never played one as a main but they never caused me the life changing drama that it seems a lot of you folks have had here.
http://www.greycouncil.org/
This makes me laugh.
Why is it such a problem for people to deal with "stealthing" classes but they can cope with fireballs flying out of a wizards finger or a warrior spinning a sword in front of them and blocking arrows.
Dumbed down indeed. Dumbed down in respect to what? People like to throw around that "dumbed down" phrase but rarely back it up... I am sorry but it's not anymore "dumb" than it was in previous MMOs versus WoWs.
Just say you don't like stealth classes because they can sneak up on ya. It's simple as that. I've never played one as a main but they never caused me the life changing drama that it seems a lot of you folks have had here.
I'd prefer not to post again in this topic but... I will refute your argument that is not backed up with anything more then just mere opinions of what others might like/dislike (which you have no evidence of); and your ideas on what should be in an MMO are based off of what another developer felt should be in their game. This game is DIFFERENT. Just because your used to having assassin classes stealth and be able to walk in front of your nose without you seeing them doesn't make it the norm.
As for wizards and warriors...well lets just say...that is their class. When you read about wizards in fantasy books you read about them conjuring up long-forgotten spells with mysterious power and enchanting and all that sort of dribble. When you read about warriors you read about them achieving heroic feats (I have never heard of a warrior spin that can deflect arrows but apparently you have) and legendary valour. When you read stealth action novels you read about assassins and rogues that steal, sneak, and backstab...but never about one that can sneak right in front of someones nose. That is what I mean in the conventional sense.
Dumbed down was only used to generalize what World of Warcraft has done to the rogue class. Rather then making it something that is interesting and viable in different situations they base nearly every skill on a rogue being in stealth to survive. You take away the invisibility and you find that you take away everything they have based that class upon.
~~Internet gaming is not for the faint of heart or the dumb of mind.~~
Who cares about a stealth class - can I get me a scared, bearded dwarf that can brew some "strrong Dwarrven Ale !"
FUNCOM - putting the FUN in disFUNctional !
the REAL truth about stealth classes
Haha I agree with that.
Btw everyone I know they origionally said that there wasn't going to be any stealth, I just thought that the comment from the Q&A session was interesting. I was curious to the why they said "I know but I dont know if I can say. . .". Why not say "no" if there isn't something to it?
Paul did say no stealth. Twist it whatever way you want. Ex: He said there would be no stealth, but didn't say they would never ever consider it again and therefore they must be adding it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There will not be stealth in WAR.
That said, i do believe that there will be ways to be stealthy in the game. From all game footage it looks like there is no auto lock or target nearest enemy button. That means that if your hiding behind a bush and attacking with a ranged weapon you wont immediately know where your "stealthed" attacker is. Also if some one runs up behind you, you wont just auto lock some one that is attacking you, giving them time to get in that good old back-stab.
While i am not sure about this sense i have not played the game, that is what it looks like to me.