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are there any mmo's with perma-death?
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Using Diablo 2 as an example for "Hardcore" mode players and saying that the game would be more RPG then Hack&Slash is laughable. D2 is the king of Hack&Slash there was no RPG to it. Just because your character can die and the concequences can be harsh does not make the game more of an RPG.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Unless... people who *say* they want permadeath, don't really want permadeath for themselves. They want permadeath for OTHER guys. I kill you, *you* reroll (or probably quit). And I don't die. Ever.
The thought that you, voluntarily, must delete and reroll while the other guy may or may not... that's rather painful, isn't it.
Just give up and quit the game when you die. And kick yourself in the balls while you're at it. I'd bet that would be even more painful (and enjoyable), eh?
A game like that wouldn't last two months. Devs aren't stupid. They know this.
finally somebody who stays on topic...
and as far as i know, there were some developments, but again as far as i know there are no mmo out atm that have perma-death
"There actually is a path, you just have to be able to see it..."
"well if that is all," said the blind guy.
I wonder why it has financial problems...
Using Diablo 2 as an example for "Hardcore" mode players and saying that the game would be more RPG then Hack&Slash is laughable. D2 is the king of Hack&Slash there was no RPG to it. Just because your character can die and the concequences can be harsh does not make the game more of an RPG.
dude i never said diablo is rpg.
only games i can call rpg are Fallout for single player and Second Life for mmo. you took too much assumptions from my post
I have no idea why those who dont like permadeath enter this thread at all. If i do not like WoW, i dont enter WoW forum and say its unreasonable game and I do not understand why ppl wnat play this game.
Playing: Rohan
Played (from best to worst): Shadowbane, Guild Wars, Shayia, Age of Conan, Warhammer, Runes of Magic, Rappelz, Archlord, Knight online, King of Kings, Kal online, Last chaos
So wrong. The best Mud/MMO time I have ever had was on a mud with eventual perma death. You had about 80 deaths before it was all over. And yet it was pvp. But it was the most fun pvp I have ever had.
Risk makes a game fun, no risk does not, something WoW players don't understand.
And Hellgate:Longdon will have a hardcore mode (don't know it that is out of the box or if you have to play through once). And it comes out in about 6 weeks. So the answer is yet, if we count Hellgate:Longdon as a MMO. And if you count guild wars as one than Hellgate is one too. But that’s an argument for another thread.
Some of the best NWN worlds I played on was permadeath. The difference to other servers was that you valued the character's life and didn't go doing stupid things, it added a sense of realism and was quite an adrenaline kick.
No, I wouldn't play a permadeath MMORPG, because in a smaller community as NWN, I don't have to put up with griefers and levelgrinding and if the server do lag- a DM can decide wether I died or not.
The problem is people either need to vote with their dollar or their actions. So many people say they want a permadeath MMO well then either cancel any game that isn't a permadeath one or continuously delete you character when you die. Create a movement in a game and have a whole guild that plays that way.
The developers will see this trend and if there is honestly enough of you then they will make changes to account for you in the game. If there are not enough of you then you will be doomed to waiting for the next niche game.
Currently playing:
LOTRO & WoW (not much WoW though because Mines of Moria rocks!!!!)
Looking Foward too:
Bioware games (Dragon Age & Star Wars The Old Republic)
Unless... people who *say* they want permadeath, don't really want permadeath for themselves. They want permadeath for OTHER guys. I kill you, *you* reroll (or probably quit). And I don't die. Ever.
The thought that you, voluntarily, must delete and reroll while the other guy may or may not... that's rather painful, isn't it.
Just give up and quit the game when you die. And kick yourself in the balls while you're at it. I'd bet that would be even more painful (and enjoyable), eh?
A game like that wouldn't last two months. Devs aren't stupid. They know this.
The thing is just deleting your char is not the same as losing it. The meaning is lost when most other chars do not have a risk of losing anything. It means something if you can get your char to a high level and all others in the game have the same chance of losing their char. It changes the gameplay and affects the world. If you have a small group that roleplays "losing" their chars you still have the majority of stale max level chars doing nothing and that leads to boredom and even more ganking.
If everyone is on the same playfield they have as much to lose as you do and gaining the high level character means a lot more.
AKA - Bruxail
WoW look at all the Warcraft trolls in this topic
"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand
Unless... people who *say* they want permadeath, don't really want permadeath for themselves. They want permadeath for OTHER guys. I kill you, *you* reroll (or probably quit). And I don't die. Ever.
The thought that you, voluntarily, must delete and reroll while the other guy may or may not... that's rather painful, isn't it.
Just give up and quit the game when you die. And kick yourself in the balls while you're at it. I'd bet that would be even more painful (and enjoyable), eh?
A game like that wouldn't last two months. Devs aren't stupid. They know this.
i came up with a reason why its idiotic , 1 page before you post , please read a thread before trolling !
for you sake i restate it " its idiotic because playing an selfimposed variant " like delete and reroll is totally ANOTHER game experience than sharing rules and conditions with everyone else, with all the impact it has on a game world! its another kind of game ! The thread is about where to get this game experience. Not how to make a weak substitute for it !
Its only a logical solution if you don't understand thats its ANOTHER game experience! Do you understand that ?
There was a game to feature permadeath... it was called MOURNING!!
I would really love to see perma death in a MMO.
However there will always be problems with death due to lag or similiar issues.
So we need a good resurrect mechanism. It should be possible to resurrect your char within the next x hours. So if you are in an easy area, the risk of loosing your char would be minimal. Going in a tough area would be a risk as you cannot be sure to be rescued if you fall. I still wait for such a game.
i really hate having to say this so many times....
If you really want a perma-death system, make a character in any current MMO. Whenever you die, simply log out, delete the character, and make a new one.
If you really want a full loot PVP system, make a character in any current MMO on a PVP server. Whenever you die to another player, simply destroy/throw away everything in your inventory and everything you have equiped.
Seriously, try it for a week. Tell me what you think then. Don't knock my post and flame me before you go and try it.
I GAURANTEE you will cheat. "I lagged, doesn't count." "Server crashed, doesn't count." "He was XX levels higher, doesn't count." "I was AFK, doesn't count." I gaurantee you will...
Full loot only works if gear means very little, and is easily replacable like in old school UO. And if you have easy access to banks and storage. That's why it worked in that game.
Perma-death only works if there is no way to advance your character. RPGs and MMORPGs are about advancing a character. Perma-death only works if everyone starts out equal, and there is no room for character growth. Which is EXACTLY like a FPS or RTS game. Sure, you can pick up better weapons/gear/buffs etc. like in a FPS, but when you die you start back at zero.
So to have a MMO with perma-death and full item loot that works, you have to have a game with no leveling, no skill system, no gear upgrades (unless they are very easy to get and everyone has equal opportunity to get them)
... which means that you have a FPS.. at most, an MMOFPS or MMOAG (action game) but NOT a MMORPG
"Today's technology" is way better than you merit. Heck, man, death by latency was an issue back in the 56k days. Glitches are a direct result of bad programming/interoperability (more likely the latter) as gaming platforms work better than ever. I'll grant that hacks are perhaps the exception here, but they're not all that hard to pick up once they've been spotted and the offender has his subnet banned.
Overall though, if you want today's tech to improve, be a capitalist and stop investing in crap. Buy (your conception of) good equipment and good games.
Fact of the matter is that the North American market just doesn't like those harsh hardcore MMOs. The market sees that North America likes softcore MMOs, so those are what wind up getting developed. Look no further than SWG: a pretty hardcore system was put in place for Jedi, and people complained in droves about the system being "too hard" and "too faulty" (but, naturally, not that the power offered was too much). As a result of SOE giving players "what they wanted," the difficulty and the relative power of the class got nerfed so many times that it is now a starting profession rather than an elite profession.
It's not hopeless though. If anything, Age of Conan has perhaps the best chance of influencing the market in North America to at least support hardcore functionality on select servers, so I hope they pull their game off in epic style -- as do many investors.
-- xpaladin
[MMOz]
AC1/2, AO, DAoC, EQ1/2, SoR, SWG, UO, WAR, WoW
These posts always are good for a laugh.
First of, the people posting to try del your Avatars to get a taste of what your asking for are right, try it and you will see exactly why Permadeath will never be done on a MMORPG.
Look at EVE, even CCP knew better than to consider PD. Imagine you have just a six month old Avatar and you get jumped, or jumped to a gate and lagged, or enter a systen and lagged which all lead to the same result, instead of simply getting podded you are PDed. Forget all the stuff you had at the station, the new avatar you must now roll will not be able to use the equipment or fly the ships without paying for six more months of subs.
Actually, if you really want a taste of permadeath. Play EVE but do not upgrade your clones. Once you loose the ability to use all your stuff and realize you are looking at real time months to get back to where you were you will finely understand why PD will never work. Even on SISI where you can buy everything for 100 isk, you still need the SP to use them and PD would keep you in a Frig.
An so it begins
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
Implementing your own perma-death system is not the same as playing a game that already has one. The games I've played with permanent death are not that big of a grind. What you are suggesting is fighting characters that never get penalties for death while you do. The people that don't delete their character when they die would have a much stronger character than they earned coming from a permanent-death perspective. There wouldn't be a huge amount of high levels running around on a server with a permanent death function.
Like Bruxail said: If you roleplay a permanent-death function on a game that doesn't normally have permanent death then there is going to be too many opposing, stale, max-level characters than what there would be on a game that normally has a permanent death system. The permanent death function makes higher level characters rare.
You are suggesting playing a game not designed for a permanent-death system and implementing your own permanent-death function. Just imagining playing a game with a leveling system that takes 1+ year to get max level (ragnarok online) on a permanent-death mode is absurd. You are imagining implementing such a function in such games which makes you feel negative about this game style.
Imagine if they implemented a WoW server with double experience rates and a permanent death system. WoW is not a game completely designed with a permanent-death system taken into consideration yet a server like this is still very appealing to me.
Permanent-death mode is a risk. Every time you fight you risk your character. Every duel gets your adrenaline flowing. Permanent-death mode makes victory all the more sweeter.
Wasn't there a server like this for about a month in EQ1? Whenever you died you respawned in your home city at level 1. Can't remember the name, though it was never the most popular, for sure.
Implementing your own perma-death system is not the same as playing a game that already has one. The games I've played with permanent death are not that big of a grind. What you are suggesting is fighting characters that never get penalties for death while you do. The people that don't delete their character when they die would have a much stronger character than they earned coming from a permanent-death perspective. There wouldn't be a huge amount of high levels running around on a server with a permanent death function.
Like Bruxail said: If you roleplay a permanent-death function on a game that doesn't normally have permanent death then there is going to be too many opposing, stale, max-level characters than what there would be on a game that normally has a permanent death system. The permanent death function makes higher level characters rare.
You are suggesting playing a game not designed for a permanent-death system and implementing your own permanent-death function. Just imagining playing a game with a leveling system that takes 1+ year to get max level (ragnarok online) on a permanent-death mode is absurd. You are imagining implementing such a function in such games which makes you feel negative about this game style.
Imagine if they implemented a WoW server with double experience rates and a permanent death system. WoW is not a game completely designed with a permanent-death system taken into consideration yet a server like this is still very appealing to me.
Permanent-death mode is a risk. Every time you fight you risk your character. Every duel gets your adrenaline flowing. Permanent-death mode makes victory all the more sweeter.
Sounds to me like what you're essentially saying is that perma-death and player achievements don't mix. This seems to defeat the purpose of it. The shorter time it takes to get back to where you are, the less you fear death. I'll admit some of the ideas about what permadeath will bring are apealing, but it's kind of a catch 22. If it takes a long time to build up your character and everything, permadeath would be too frustrating. If it only takes a short time, permadeath loses its appeal. What joy is there in finally destroying a hated enemy when he's going to be right back where he was in a couple of days?I suppose a balance could work, but there would be challenges. How would you deal with people losing characters due to circumstances beyond their control, as others have pointed out? How do you deal with people just starting low level characters and ganking everyone they can? Would you be able to have any sort of non combat character types in the game at all? If so, how do you deal with the unbalance, in that others can mess them up permanently and they can do nothing that would hurt them that much? What if there's so much death going on that no one can get out of the starter area to see the rest of your game? It might work in some games, but it would have to be a very specific type and it might prevent it from having many other elemants.
A compromise might be to have permadeath, but only for some people. For example, one of the ideas discussed in the early development of Roma Victor was "legend" class characters. These characters, from what I understand, would have been mostly those who held important social, economic, or political roles. They would suffer permadeath, and in return would be given stronger characters and allowed to seek high office. This makes assassination a useful tool in faction war without having the general population affected. Another idea would be increasing death penalties as your player kill count goes up culminating in permadeath. This would allow pvers and crafters to do their thing, while letting those who live by the sword die by it.
If you're building an mmorpg, or if you'd like to share ideas or talk about this industry, visit Multiplayer Worlds.
Haha, you miss the point. The point of permadeath and full loot is making SOMEONE ELSE lose their shit and die. Oh and why does a permadeath mmo need leveling? Because WoW has leveling? There are other ways....
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
If you are really interested in Perma-death, then I think your best bet is Dungeon's and Dragons Online if you join one of the several Perma-death guilds. In fact, if you are interested, you can join our guild (Mortal Voyage) if you agree to our rules. If not, there are many other perma-death guilds in DDO.
Other than that, you could always just delete your character after dying.
MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW
Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.
starport has 'rebang' server option whereas everyone gets wiped after a winner has taken over the universe along with perma servers
meh you think this way because you are thinking 'mainstream'.
there are good points you know. What if some guy has a grip on the world? What if there is this huge zerg guild running the whole server. no one can compete. permadeath- now that might help out. We take them down one by one. that would hurt
What about a bounty system? yeah, how can you exploit it? I tell my best friend to kill me for the bounty ouch im gone for good. the guys that put up the bounty got their wish. im erased lol
What about all these MMOs people complain about newbie areas being empty? Well on a PD server you have plenty of friends trust that. gives ya a chance to form up guilds and be friends. equal footing. You know how on normal servers guilds get so picky you must have uber guild and blah blah to join? Well on PD servers you will cling to your neighbor for survival.
How about reaching max level? In most MMOs its like nothing right there are 10,000 others that are top level. no achievement. But what if im the only one? ya, that can happen on a PD server. You're a real hero
Hero? yep. imagine, the lowbies' town is constantly getting assaulted by beasts. let's say they invested hours in their toons but they cant hope to defend themselves. you come along and save their life. Can you imagine the gratitude?
PD has its advantages.Richard Bartle and others have pointed this out. problem is its a hit to morale. we dont want to upset our newbies right? so let's not punish them. problem solved.
but if we had PD- well now it really does mean something,. Everything you do. You kill a mob that means your town is safe. even for just 10 minutes- you have saveed newbies from sure death
without playing on a PD server then of course you can never imagine such a workld where everything you do has meaning. And yes, people do pay for this. the PD servers are overrun on NWN servers (they make money in form of donations)
PD cant work? um okay....... maybe it wont work for mmorpg.com fans but it works for NWN fans. role players, it works for them just fine
I wonder why you seem to think EVE/CCP not having PD means anything? PD servers are normally built from scrathc for that purpose
One of the most popular has no safe zones at all, period. even for newbies. You can be huddling together in an Inn and if the town gets raided by NPCs guess what your head is on the chopping block. The town needs to be constantly defended by the higher levels
so CCP not implementing PD- I'm not sure how that is relevant at all? Their MMORPG is about massive time commitment. would take 40+ yrs to unlock everything. isk is needed for very much as well. has instances, etc.
the popular PD server for NWN2 for instance has no instance, no safe zones. you are always in constant danger and the safe zones are all player created. Requires immense teamwork to live
EVE is nothing, nothing like this at all.
Starport, unlike EVE, is all mostly player skill. you pilot your own ship and dodge attacks. there are no skills you need to 'train' to get into the best ships.
EVE is nothing like the PD games I've ever seen so im unsure why you think thats a valid point