are there any mmo's with perma-death?

mrw0lf · September 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by heerobya

i really hate having to say this so many times....
If you really want a perma-death system, make a character in any current MMO. Whenever you die, simply log out, delete the character, and make a new one.
If you really want a full loot PVP system, make a character in any current MMO on a PVP server. Whenever you die to another player, simply destroy/throw away everything in your inventory and everything you have equiped.
Seriously, try it for a week. Tell me what you think then. Don't knock my post and flame me before you go and try it.
I GAURANTEE you will cheat. "I lagged, doesn't count." "Server crashed, doesn't count." "He was XX levels higher, doesn't count." "I was AFK, doesn't count." I gaurantee you will...

Full loot only works if gear means very little, and is easily replacable like in old school UO. And if you have easy access to banks and storage. That's why it worked in that game.
Perma-death only works if there is no way to advance your character. RPGs and MMORPGs are about advancing a character. Perma-death only works if everyone starts out equal, and there is no room for character growth. Which is EXACTLY like a FPS or RTS game. Sure, you can pick up better weapons/gear/buffs etc. like in a FPS, but when you die you start back at zero.
So to have a MMO with perma-death and full item loot that works, you have to have a game with no leveling, no skill system, no gear upgrades (unless they are very easy to get and everyone has equal opportunity to get them)
... which means that you have a FPS.. at most, an MMOFPS or MMOAG (action game) but NOT a MMORPG

meh you think this way because you are thinking 'mainstream'.

there are good points you know. What if some guy has a grip on the world? What if there is this huge zerg guild running the whole server. no one can compete. permadeath- now that might help out. We take them down one by one. that would hurt

What about a bounty system? yeah, how can you exploit it? I tell my best friend to kill me for the bounty ouch im gone for good. the guys that put up the bounty got their wish. im erased lol

What about all these MMOs people complain about newbie areas being empty? Well on a PD server you have plenty of friends trust that. gives ya a chance to form up guilds and be friends. equal footing. You know how on normal servers guilds get so picky you must have uber guild and blah blah to join? Well on PD servers you will cling to your neighbor for survival.

How about reaching max level? In most MMOs its like nothing right there are 10,000 others that are top level. no achievement. But what if im the only one? ya, that can happen on a PD server. You're a real hero

Hero? yep. imagine, the lowbies' town is constantly getting assaulted by beasts. let's say they invested hours in their toons but they cant hope to defend themselves. you come along and save their life. Can you imagine the gratitude?

PD has its advantages.Richard Bartle and others have pointed this out. problem is its a hit to morale. we dont want to upset our newbies right? so let's not punish them. problem solved.

but if we had PD- well now it really does mean something,. Everything you do. You kill a mob that means your town is safe. even for just 10 minutes- you have saveed newbies from sure death

without playing on a PD server then of course you can never imagine such a workld where everything you do has meaning. And yes, people do pay for this. the PD servers are overrun on NWN servers (they make money in form of donations)

PD cant work? um okay....... maybe it wont work for mmorpg.com fans but it works for NWN fans. role players, it works for them just fine

Some awsome reasons there may give NWN a looksee. Especially the newby areas never really thought of that.

kingbear1488 · September 2007

i doubt there will be a game to come out with perma-death. but they might come out with some perma-death servers. its not that hard to make a new server perma-death. wouldnt have to change many things. turn up the xp rate SOME. maybe 2x-2.5x to a lvl then right back to normal xp rate.

if a game was to make a server like this how much risk would it be? any game could do it right now. well maybe not all. but after 3-4 months if the server is empty or the devs think its not worth it, make it a reg server.

big companies would have NOTHING to lose. would blizzard lose money? or SoE? no. they might not make as much but hey they might win back players that have left. i KNOW that if blizzard came out and said they were making a new server with perma-death i would go RIGHT BACK. no second thoughts.

on a second thought maybe you wont just have one life, maybe you have as many lives as you want till you get to lvl X. then you only have Y amount lives.

about server or other player problems.

pvp perma-death is only when players are Z lvl apart. and if not your dead for so many hours.

server lag or crash. this one would take some thinking, but it could be worked out.

boognish75 · September 2007

Originally posted by Prophet60091

Originally posted by whitedelight

Every single one of them. You do not need a built in mechanic. Once you die, simple delete your character.

....yeah. If a game is to have permanent death then it needs to have that mechanism built into the game in a fundamental way. Deleting a character would be an extremely retrograde way of playing a game designed to let you die as many times as you want, with no meaningful penalty, games which reward, above all, bloody minded grinding. Without the possibility of losing something then there is no risk, and without risk there is nothing but a tedious slog to level X.

Talk about grinding, it would be a never ending grind if you had to reroll because of death any way you look at it yer gonna have too get too yer lvlel x somehow and i think permadeath would make it even more tedious.

Classicstar · September 2007

Maybe when there is PD in a game and gear - weapons dont mean much, but more about who can reach highest lvl world should be big enough to rais you lvl enough, so you can try kill the highest lvls so they lose there character to, would be adraline rush to the extreme.

You make list on who killed your character and then rais a new one to just hunt him down or his clan mates with your clan maybe that would be fun to play:)

Classicstar · September 2007

Originally posted by forest-nl

Maybe when there is PD in a game and gear - weapons dont mean much, but more about who can reach highest lvl world should be big enough to rais you lvl enough, so you can try kill the highest lvls so they lose there character to, would be adraline rush to the extreme.
You make list on who killed your character and then rais a new one to just hunt him down or his clan mates with your clan maybe that would be fun to play:)

But its all open pvp no save zones so you secretly join that clan lvl up make sure you reach lvl of clan mate who killed you and when time is right you kill him that would be fun to you never know who to trust:P

Yeh now you bring it up PD again pls make game with PD gamemakers:)

BadSpock · September 2007

See that is the big point I am trying to make....

In a PD system you can't have levels. It just doesn't make sense.

So for a PD MMO you use what, a skill system like UO or SWG?

What's the point, when you die, you are dead and have to start back at zero. Anything else isn't pure PD.

Hence, why I said that you can't have any kind of character advancement in terms of numbers and game systems. The only "advancement" you could have for your character would be status for staying alive for a while, been when you die, even that goes away.

So like I said, the only way to do PD is if you have zero character advancement. If you have zero character advancement, it's NOT a mmoRPG because RPG's are about advancing a character. So you can make a MMOG with PD, but if you call it a MMORPG you are lying to yourself.

I suppose you could have a skill system where you get better at stuff if you stay alive, so you become more powerful and stay alive longer, and then become more powerful and stay alive longer etc...

But then when you die, eventually you will, maybe you've gained enough reputation where 50+ players come hunting you down. And you die, then oops, all your reputation and status as an "elite" player is gone too. Unless you can the make a new character with the same name, people will know you are good, but you'll be back to zero so they'll slaughter you.

I just don't see the point. If I wanted that kind of game play, which I do, I play FPS games.

Classicstar · September 2007

Originally posted by heerobya

See that is the big point I am trying to make....
In a PD system you can't have levels. It just doesn't make sense.
So for a PD MMO you use what, a skill system like UO or SWG?
What's the point, when you die, you are dead and have to start back at zero. Anything else isn't pure PD.
Hence, why I said that you can't have any kind of character advancement in terms of numbers and game systems. The only "advancement" you could have for your character would be status for staying alive for a while, been when you die, even that goes away.
So like I said, the only way to do PD is if you have zero character advancement. If you have zero character advancement, it's NOT a mmoRPG because RPG's are about advancing a character. So you can make a MMOG with PD, but if you call it a MMORPG you are lying to yourself.
I suppose you could have a skill system where you get better at stuff if you stay alive, so you become more powerful and stay alive longer, and then become more powerful and stay alive longer etc...
But then when you die, eventually you will, maybe you've gained enough reputation where 50+ players come hunting you down. And you die, then oops, all your reputation and status as an "elite" player is gone too. Unless you can the make a new character with the same name, people will know you are good, but you'll be back to zero so they'll slaughter you.
I just don't see the point. If I wanted that kind of game play, which I do, I play FPS games.

Why i mentioned numbers was in this case lvls is that most care about lvs and when PD is implemented its a kind of race and also who can reach highest lvl on server so when you as a high lvl die you prolly get a heart attack in the procces hehe but ADRALINE RUSH will be massive i gues:)

Classicstar · September 2007

Why i play so easely on open pvp games or even with perma death is for me its always just a game to have fun.

If i die or even lose my stuff or lose my character no big deal sure i get high tension adraline rush sky high, but always see it as a game and its a part of it, i choose to play these games, so i know the risk playing them.

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by heerobya

See that is the big point I am trying to make....
In a PD system you can't have levels. It just doesn't make sense.
So for a PD MMO you use what, a skill system like UO or SWG?
What's the point, when you die, you are dead and have to start back at zero. Anything else isn't pure PD.
Hence, why I said that you can't have any kind of character advancement in terms of numbers and game systems. The only "advancement" you could have for your character would be status for staying alive for a while, been when you die, even that goes away.
So like I said, the only way to do PD is if you have zero character advancement. If you have zero character advancement, it's NOT a mmoRPG because RPG's are about advancing a character. So you can make a MMOG with PD, but if you call it a MMORPG you are lying to yourself.
I suppose you could have a skill system where you get better at stuff if you stay alive, so you become more powerful and stay alive longer, and then become more powerful and stay alive longer etc...
But then when you die, eventually you will, maybe you've gained enough reputation where 50+ players come hunting you down. And you die, then oops, all your reputation and status as an "elite" player is gone too. Unless you can the make a new character with the same name, people will know you are good, but you'll be back to zero so they'll slaughter you.
I just don't see the point. If I wanted that kind of game play, which I do, I play FPS games.

and yet PD servers are very abundant in player run NWN servers and they have levels

Levels mean a lot more in a PD game then a regular game like WoW. Not only are you more powerful then others but also it is a symbol of your player skill

Without PD- then Ladders usually tend to be nothing more then proving you're a big nerd that has 200 hours to play every week to hit #1

With PD- then Ladders prove you had the nuts to take it all the way. It is proof you used player skill to hit the top.

Try selling a high lvl toon to someone. A noob will get themselves killed fast. If anything, PD games are the ultimate form of player skill. It proves you have mastered the mechanics of the "game". Losers will literally keep rerolling like we see on the NWN PD servers

edit- that being said I do think its 'easier' to focus on player skill in a PD game I do agree there but I think a player can use 'player skill' to earn levels faster then newbs.

LeJohn · September 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

I wonder why you seem to think EVE/CCP not having PD means anything? PD servers are normally built from scrathc for that purpose

The only PD non-Sp game I have ever heard of was D2. As the hardcore servers were not designed any diffrent than the standard (I only play closed Bnet not open) Bnet servers what game are you talking about?

One of the most popular has no safe zones at all, period. even for newbies. You can be huddling together in an Inn and if the town gets raided by NPCs guess what your head is on the chopping block. The town needs to be constantly defended by the higher levels

I am intreged, what is the name of this MMO?

so CCP not implementing PD- I'm not sure how that is relevant at all? Their MMORPG is about massive time commitment. would take 40+ yrs to unlock everything. isk is needed for very much as well. has instances, etc.

Actually there are several points here, the first is that I pushed for a PD EVE server back in Beta but could not convince CCP that it would be Viable. keep in mind that there was only 2000-3000 of us at Gold. CCP was origianly comprised of a PKer clan and the Idea of PD was entertained but could not be done because as you pointed out, EVE is all about the RL Timesink and Isk.  The point here is that the a PD game could not be made by devs that support PD because in a MMO it's all about advancing your Avatar. Sure in D2 you did lvl but you did not have to invest the time that would be required by an MMO.

the popular PD server for NWN2 for instance has no instance, no safe zones. you are always in constant danger and the safe zones are all player created. Requires immense teamwork to live

Never Winter Nights 2 was a MMO? I did not know that.

EVE is nothing, nothing like this at all.

QFT, but now I am confused. Are we not discussing PD MMOs and what it would take to make one?

Starport, unlike EVE, is all mostly player skill. you pilot your own ship and dodge attacks. there are no skills you need to 'train' to get into the best ships.

I have never heard of Starport, will have to look that one up. I was, and am still looking for a Freelancer style MMO, when I found EVE. but thats a diffrent discussion. But you are exactly right, for a space PD MMO to be built they would have to completly remove skill reqs for ships, weps etc.. It could be done on nothing but money, IE: you buy it you can fly it.

EVE is nothing like the PD games I've ever seen so im unsure why you think thats a valid point

My point was that if you want to play a MMO with the closest thing to PD available on any MMO then try playing EVE but without upgrading your clones. While it's true you don't actaully Die just the fact that you will be podded back to a starter Avatar will give you the same game experience as if your avatar PDed and you rolled a new one. Which will soon show you that PD while necessary in FPS and singleplayer RPGs does not work in MMOs.

Argg... need a spell checker. Or to stop serfing from work.

badgerbadger · September 2007

oN perma-death:

i was pro-PD until i died from LAG one too many times

also; if my buddies can carry me out and have me res'd (dependent on setting) i'm good right?

But: my opinion is that simiar to rankings i've seen in non-online games; your character's achievements can gain U rank (like account favor - but rather its 'player' experience

this level of earned experience allows you the 'right' to create (in effect take over) characters of higher level(or xp for skill systems) than a truly starting character.

I have used this in some of my more casualty-heavy D&d games, as well as my multi-geneational campaign,

and though that is a smaller scale;

have proven it effective and acceptable to most - not all - players.

people who enjoy new characters i've noticed; don't mind it so much as those who are stuck on a single character.

Aseenus · September 2007

perma death imo is a very good idea but unless implimented correctly it wont work

Inf666 · September 2007

Originally posted by vajuras
I wonder why you seem to think EVE/CCP not having PD means anything? PD servers are normally built from scrathc for that purpose
One of the most popular has no safe zones at all, period. even for newbies. You can be huddling together in an Inn and if the town gets raided by NPCs guess what your head is on the chopping block. The town needs to be constantly defended by the higher levels
so CCP not implementing PD- I'm not sure how that is relevant at all? Their MMORPG is about massive time commitment. would take 40+ yrs to unlock everything. isk is needed for very much as well. has instances, etc.
the popular PD server for NWN2 for instance has no instance, no safe zones. you are always in constant danger and the safe zones are all player created. Requires immense teamwork to live
EVE is nothing, nothing like this at all.
Starport, unlike EVE, is all mostly player skill. you pilot your own ship and dodge attacks. there are no skills you need to 'train' to get into the best ships.
EVE is nothing like the PD games I've ever seen so im unsure why you think thats a valid point

What are you blabbering about? Eve does not have any safe zones. Eve does not use instances. Deathpenalty: It may not be permadeath of the character because you do not lose your skill points but you damn well lose a lot of ingame currency when you die. I am pretty sure that a lot of Eve players have way more courage than a lot of permadeath players. With PD you cannot chose your fate and your loss is predetermined. In Eve you get to choose what you lose. The more you risk, the more you get to lose but you are a bit stronger at the same time. PD is the same thing as every other death penalty: loss of time. Its just a question of how much time. I am sure that deaths like a mothership death in Eve is the same as 1000 deaths in a permadeath game time wise.

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by Inf666

Originally posted by vajuras
I wonder why you seem to think EVE/CCP not having PD means anything? PD servers are normally built from scrathc for that purpose
One of the most popular has no safe zones at all, period. even for newbies. You can be huddling together in an Inn and if the town gets raided by NPCs guess what your head is on the chopping block. The town needs to be constantly defended by the higher levels
so CCP not implementing PD- I'm not sure how that is relevant at all? Their MMORPG is about massive time commitment. would take 40+ yrs to unlock everything. isk is needed for very much as well. has instances, etc.
the popular PD server for NWN2 for instance has no instance, no safe zones. you are always in constant danger and the safe zones are all player created. Requires immense teamwork to live
EVE is nothing, nothing like this at all.
Starport, unlike EVE, is all mostly player skill. you pilot your own ship and dodge attacks. there are no skills you need to 'train' to get into the best ships.
EVE is nothing like the PD games I've ever seen so im unsure why you think thats a valid point

What are you blabbering about? Eve does not have any safe zones. Eve does not use instances. Deathpenalty: It may not be permadeath of the character because you do not lose your skill points but you damn well lose a lot of ingame currency when you die. I am pretty sure that a lot of Eve players have way more courage than a lot of permadeath players. With PD you cannot chose your fate and your loss is predetermined. In Eve you get to choose what you lose. The more you risk, the more you get to lose but you are a bit stronger at the same time. PD is the same thing as every other death penalty: loss of time. Its just a question of how much time. I am sure that deaths like a mothership death in Eve is the same as 1000 deaths in a permadeath game time wise.

you forget about Agent missions how do you expect someone to find you inside of a deadspace mission? Those coordinates you receive directly from an Agent lol. Player controlled pirates have no way to find you in those.

PErmadeath is simple to understand. It equals = dead character for all times. no rezzes, no clones, no insurance, no money tucked away in a bank. just all the way extreme you lose everything upon death

I got nothng against EVE (I'm a subscriber) but I know better to say its anything close to PD

EVE has insurance on your items. It is nothing close to PD I'm sorry. PD servers you can lose everything. there is no 'insurance' to save you lol. and no clones.... it is not an option.

and no Mothership deaths is not close to a PD game. your avatar in EVE is what you invest countless hours into and it is virtually impossible to lose. even if you dont buy the clones its just skill loss. no matter what your avatar still exists

In EVE it is very easy to survive to goal state (if you play the game since launch you are top level no doubt). In a PD game, the chances are usually really high to slay ya before you can even dream of ever hitting level cap. Instead you are focused to socialize with your fellow man, cling together for survival, and do serious politics to make sure you dont get PKed within the role playing boundaries (if you're on a role playing server)

EVE is not a Permadeath game that is for certain. gimmie a break people been losing items (armor/weapons/goods) and skill points in games for years and years way before EVE that is not PErmadeath. never was, never will be

Hence, EVE should not be uttered in a PD topic period. If EVE is PD then Asheron's Call 1 Darktide is PD too. old skool UO would be PD. the list just goes on and on and on.... It is laughable people bring up EVE in PD topics. um, just no....

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by badgerbadger

oN perma-death:
i was pro-PD until i died from LAG one too many times
also; if my buddies can carry me out and have me res'd (dependent on setting) i'm good right?

But: my opinion is that simiar to rankings i've seen in non-online games; your character's achievements can gain U rank (like account favor - but rather its 'player' experience
this level of earned experience allows you the 'right' to create (in effect take over) characters of higher level(or xp for skill systems) than a truly starting character.
I have used this in some of my more casualty-heavy D&d games, as well as my multi-geneational campaign,
and though that is a smaller scale;
have proven it effective and acceptable to most - not all - players.
people who enjoy new characters i've noticed; don't mind it so much as those who are stuck on a single character.

there are other types of PD- it doesnt have to be ironman permadeath (1UP). Starport employed an aging scheme whereas everyone has a timer on their life (if you play on the rebang server). on the NWN role playing PD server I play you can contact a DM to bring you back if it was a circumstance beyond your control (lag)

Inf666 · September 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

...

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but PD is the same thing as every other death penalty out there. The same thing. Why ? Items, xp, character progression can all be converted into a play time value. When you die and lose said object you just lose one thing: time. How many hours do you invest into a character on a PD server on average before he dies? Now just calculate how much players in Eve or any other death penalty game out there could accumulate in that time. If a player in Eve loses the same amount in his death, he has just lost the same time a PD character would have lost. So where is the difference ?

Deadspace in eve: As the matter of fact you can kill people in deadspace and yes that is happening a lot. How? You simply scan them down. With scan probes you can find anyone anywhere in the solar system in a few minutes max. Deadspace is not protection, even though you are initially the only one to know where it is.

A mothership costs about 35 bil. isk in eve. If I calculate an income of 10 mio isk/hour on average that would be 3500 hours of work. So if I die in a mothership I would have lost 3500 hours of work. So that is "and no Mothership deaths is not close to a PD game" ? I see.

Nightbrother · September 2007

I'd love a perma-death MMO, with partial or full drops upon death. With such a system in place, you will see a whole new set of rules and way of playing come into being. It doesn't really in any way compare to the MMOs of today, nor is it easy to imagine what it exactly entails, unless you have already tried it. Deleting your character when you die in an MMO that has not implemented perma-death is VERY much not the same thing, and if you think that comparison is valid, you do not understand what a perma-death server would actually entail.

Failing perma-death, I'd love to see a MMO with just severe item drops from the character that dies, like early Neocron, for example.

I doubt it will ever happen though. The trend these last years is to protect everyone who comes into an MMO from grief or unexpected death, because that's where the money is. Safety and cuddly-wuddlyness. Yes, excuse my cynicism. Well, it's much more complicated than that, but I think I can safely say that there are certainly enough people around to populate a Permadeath/FullDrop MMO, but the major companies don't have the guts for such, not right now anyway, and I imagine it'll take a small miracle, or just a silver-tongued gentleman with a great idea to convince them otherwise.

That being said, I'll be one of the first in line if a perma-death MMO should come out, not because I want to perma-kill everyone else and cause them grief, but because I want to enjoy the tense and paranoid atmosphere of playing somewhere where dying really matters.

Yes, there'll be bugs, and people will die from them, but that's how it is in any MMO.

SonofSeth · September 2007

And the worst thing when talking about PD is that anti PD camp presents lack of imagination as evidence. Ofcourse PD can't work in WoW or WoW like games, ofcourse lag and bugs would be a serious issue, but listing problems is realy simple, we all know what the problems would be. Now solutions, that's kinda hard, isn't it? So let's put that hot potato into someone elses hand and do what's safe and feels familiar, let's complain and doubt shall we.

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by Inf666

Originally posted by vajuras

...

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but PD is the same thing as every other death penalty out there. The same thing. Why ? Items, xp, character progression can all be converted into a play time value. When you die and lose said object you just lose one thing: time. How many hours do you invest into a character on a PD server on average before he dies? Now just calculate how much players in Eve or any other death penalty game out there could accumulate in that time. If a player in Eve loses the same amount in his death, he has just lost the same time a PD character would have lost. So where is the difference ?

Deadspace in eve: As the matter of fact you can kill people in deadspace and yes that is happening a lot. How? You simply scan them down. With scan probes you can find anyone anywhere in the solar system in a few minutes max. Deadspace is not protection, even though you are initially the only one to know where it is.

A mothership costs about 35 bil. isk in eve. If I calculate an income of 10 mio isk/hour on average that would be 3500 hours of work. So if I die in a mothership I would have lost 3500 hours of work. So that is "and no Mothership deaths is not close to a PD game" ? I see.

coo good point on deadspace I didnt know that if that's true

my point- losing a mothership who cares you're still you. You still exist. PErmadeath- your character doesnt exist. on an RP server you reroll guess what you're a stranger. The community doesnt know who you are. Social Impact. Death penalty is not social impact. Permadeath is. A Mothership is just a material possession. I can work together with my guild and build a new one. If I get permakilled on a role playing server my entire avatar is gone. no failsafe, no clones, no insurance. Plus, my old guild wont know me so there is a chance I wont get back in. my old character is retired, forever dead and his name is locked. He's gone for good.

On an RP-Permadeath server you cant just say, "Hey I'm the brand new Vajuras!".

Permadeath is beyond a mere death penalty you can pretty much lookup many blogs on this subject and they can all point to the flaw with permadeath-role playing is that you lose social ties. no one in blogsphere will argue that permadeath is just a simple death penalty where you lose items lol. It's so far beyond that.

That is the issue with PD- but I'm not seeing this argument get presented here. Also, I think PD makes a lot more sense on role playing servers whereas the focus is on community and you dying is a really big, big deal

snowmonky · September 2007

UO Classic.

freakomar · September 2007

perma death is a gay idea, in my opinion... I would prefer something like in Darkfall, loss of everything on you. Oh yea thats the stuff

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by freakomar

perma death is a gay idea, in my opinion... I would prefer something like in Darkfall, loss of everything on you. Oh yea thats the stuff

I can respect this opinion because at least this poster realizes player looting and permadeath are completely seperate things. sure, after someone PDs you can fully loot their corpse. But getting looted after PD'ing is the least of your worries. you just lost an avatar you invested countless hours into and on a RP-Permadeath server (like NWN PW servers, MUDs, and so forth)- the community wont know who you are. you have to start all over making friends and due to the parameters of RP- you are unable to articulate you have been reborn. friends list, guilds, and everything else is askew

also, as described in shawn's blog- there are many forms of permadeath. it doesnt have to be a death penalty btw. There is also Aging- in which your life has a set timer. This prevents economic bloat, grip of power, and ensures level playing field (keeps newbie areas populated). most people dont reach max level in PD games those games are infact normally designed to kill you pretty fast. the server im on now I have yet to see anyone hit max. if you hate carebear then ya you'd probably hate this server you dont PK someone without a good role playing reason if you plan to slay them for good

[edit]

links to make this thing clearer:

http://forums.3dgamers.com/archive/index.php/t-12090 Richard Bartle's MMOs Are Designed by Newbies

http://shawn-gaming.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2005-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2006-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=9 [scroll to bottom where Shawn discusses PD]

Nitros284 · September 2007

Originally posted by snowmonky

UO Classic.

LOL, what are you talking about???? UO has never had anything even close to perma-death.

Inf666 · September 2007

Originally posted by vajuras

coo good point on deadspace I didnt know that if that's true
my point- losing a mothership who cares you're still you. You still exist. PErmadeath- your character doesnt exist. on an RP server you reroll guess what you're a stranger. The community doesnt know who you are. Social Impact. Death penalty is not social impact. Permadeath is. A Mothership is just a material possession. I can work together with my guild and build a new one. If I get permakilled on a role playing server my entire avatar is gone. no failsafe, no clones, no insurance. Plus, my old guild wont know me so there is a chance I wont get back in. my old character is retired, forever dead and his name is locked. He's gone for good.
On an RP-Permadeath server you cant just say, "Hey I'm the brand new Vajuras!".
Permadeath is beyond a mere death penalty you can pretty much lookup many blogs on this subject and they can all point to the flaw with permadeath-role playing is that you lose social ties. no one in blogsphere will argue that permadeath is just a simple death penalty where you lose items lol. It's so far beyond that.
That is the issue with PD- but I'm not seeing this argument get presented here. Also, I think PD makes a lot more sense on role playing servers whereas the focus is on community and you dying is a really big, big deal

Good answer, I agree with you. I never thought about the social implications on a RP server, sorry. I guess thats because metagaming in Eve has become a required part and I am not really a RP person to begin with. I hope you still do agree with me though that the time loss argument is still valid. Btw. social interaction, politics, banding together, having wars and vendettas between player factions is also common in Eve. I guess huge time losses as DP works nearly as well as your permadeath. Let me ask you this though: Would all out wars like in eve ever happen on a permadeath RP server ? I somehow cannot imagine those "pansy" RP players opening up a huge vendetta on a permadeath server.

vajuras · September 2007

Originally posted by Inf666

Originally posted by vajuras

coo good point on deadspace I didnt know that if that's true
my point- losing a mothership who cares you're still you. You still exist. PErmadeath- your character doesnt exist. on an RP server you reroll guess what you're a stranger. The community doesnt know who you are. Social Impact. Death penalty is not social impact. Permadeath is. A Mothership is just a material possession. I can work together with my guild and build a new one. If I get permakilled on a role playing server my entire avatar is gone. no failsafe, no clones, no insurance. Plus, my old guild wont know me so there is a chance I wont get back in. my old character is retired, forever dead and his name is locked. He's gone for good.
On an RP-Permadeath server you cant just say, "Hey I'm the brand new Vajuras!".
Permadeath is beyond a mere death penalty you can pretty much lookup many blogs on this subject and they can all point to the flaw with permadeath-role playing is that you lose social ties. no one in blogsphere will argue that permadeath is just a simple death penalty where you lose items lol. It's so far beyond that.
That is the issue with PD- but I'm not seeing this argument get presented here. Also, I think PD makes a lot more sense on role playing servers whereas the focus is on community and you dying is a really big, big deal

Good answer, I agree with you. I never thought about the social implications on a RP server, sorry. I guess thats because metagaming in Eve has become a required part and I am not really a RP person to begin with. I hope you still do agree with me though that the time loss argument is still valid. Btw. social interaction, politics, banding together, having wars and vendettas between player factions is also common in Eve. I guess huge time losses as DP works nearly as well as your permadeath. Let me ask you this though: Would all out wars like in eve ever happen on a permadeath RP server ? I somehow cannot imagine those "pansy" RP players opening up a huge vendetta on a permadeath server.

yeah the wars I have seen in EVE- I just have never seen that before. The bottlenecks (gate defenses), the strategies, and I thought the death penalty was really good (long distance travel and lost of resources). It's brilliant execution.

on the PD servers I have seen- well it depends. If its limited lives/aging you'll see bloody wars day #1 on an open PVP server (starport). maybe at the begining when we are all newbs we'll make pacts (aka starport) and form guilds. but towards the end- when we know we gonna die anyway, all war breaks out like no tomorrow. Stealing, diplomacy breaks, bounties esculating, just raw player skill. Because i believe it takes player skill to get back up on top after 'rebang'. note- there are different types of PD. In starport just a normal death is just like EVE- insurance, clones, etc. but the universe itself is on a timer and that is what PDs us

Now on an RP-Permadeath server (ironman, 1 life). well this new one has just opened for testing for a few months so ill discuss this one. it is big news anytime someone gets PKed. your assestment is correct for this RP-PD server I'm on it is infact very peaceful and such (we make fun by drinking beer and shooting darts because its Timed XP while you roleplay). however, there is a guild that has a monopoly on all the resources. players have been discussing rioting and the GMs are advising we PK them for good.The high levels are loathe to risk their toons in a senseless war. It is more political then anything. its interesting diplomacy that is going on

The main thing though even though it is carebearish to the max- the mobs are insanely tough. They will run right into town and slay us. We depend on the high level guards (players). It's all player run. player run economy, timed XP during roleplay, etc.

The server im on is small though I'll give ya that only like 50 concurrent users. that is the max NWN PW servers can support.

sometimes there is griefing but if they dont do it within role playing parameters then the GM can bring you back.

edit- to anwser your question the server is full, open PVP and no NPC guards. so in theory you can PK anyone you want but the consequences are dire if you anger the community as the last 3 random PKers found out the other day. and you must have a role playing reason like this:

paladin sees necromancer performing a ritual

paladin kills the necromancer

There is a strong alignment system. when you cxreate your chaarcter you pick his role, race, alignement, gods, etc. So players are jsut natural enemies

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are there any mmo's with perma-death?

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are there any mmo's with perma-death?

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