Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
IMO BLizzards biggest mistake
radiator
Member Posts: 26
I want to know your opinion was it a mistake that blizzard raised the level cap to 70 (and pretty soon 80)?
For me i thought it was a mistake. The days of level 60 were uncomparable IMO. Doing Molten Core, Onyxia's Layer and Other end game instances was fun as hell. When blizzard came out with burning crusade a lot of people joined and a lot of people left. They did make a shit load of BC sales though and it was a good move on their part to up the cap. BC was fun and all, but it just doesnt have the instansity of the good ole level 60 days of MC. Blizzard says they have 9 million player, but you have to subract the players with more than one account, chinese farmers (they just dont count), and inactive accounts. World of Warcraft is on a slow dicline and when they come out with the new expansion they are going to see a lot of players quit. My brothers whole guild is quiting. In my opinion they need to start from scratch and make a whole different game and not the expansion shit. Being the makers of one of the most succesful MMO ever the game would definitly get a lot of players. Leave your opinion
~Radiator~
For me i thought it was a mistake. The days of level 60 were uncomparable IMO. Doing Molten Core, Onyxia's Layer and Other end game instances was fun as hell. When blizzard came out with burning crusade a lot of people joined and a lot of people left. They did make a shit load of BC sales though and it was a good move on their part to up the cap. BC was fun and all, but it just doesnt have the instansity of the good ole level 60 days of MC. Blizzard says they have 9 million player, but you have to subract the players with more than one account, chinese farmers (they just dont count), and inactive accounts. World of Warcraft is on a slow dicline and when they come out with the new expansion they are going to see a lot of players quit. My brothers whole guild is quiting. In my opinion they need to start from scratch and make a whole different game and not the expansion shit. Being the makers of one of the most succesful MMO ever the game would definitly get a lot of players. Leave your opinion
~Radiator~
Comments
i kinda agree and kinda don't. i love the new content, zangramarsh is my new fave zone. i just hate the fact that everything i worked for on the 60 cap got basically destroyed with the first new quest reward.....but i do like my flying mount!
For me i voted "yes:, in that it gives us players that dont like to "RAID or DIE" something new to do, till 70 that is. And i love the new zone, esp nagard. And they also tone down the number of players that need to raid to 25 the max, starting from 5 again. So i do see more ppl getting involve in it. But for me, now ive hit 70, im bored again and just cancel my account.
Sonner or later this game is gona decline because of the sameness it provide, and i think that's why they will be doing a new mmo.
RIP Orc Choppa
I don't think you can really call the expansion a mistake, as at the time it was estimated that 90% of players were going to upgrade with 75% in the first 10 days of release (how that actually went i don't know)
So when would it have been a good idea to raise the level cap???
Would you be happy only playing to L60 and having the same content for another year, two, five?
How many people do you think would leave the game if there was no new content? Yes, they could have added more and more L60 raids and dungeons, but they would just be re-hashes of the existing stuff so it makes no sense.
The only way for any MMO to survive is to introduce new content and Blizzard hardley pumps them out at a rate of knots like other MMO's. The first expansion was over two years after release (Jan 2007) and the next expansion is not expected for at least another 18 months after that (talk of Aug 2008 at the moment), which i think is more than enough time for existing players to have tasted most or all of the content.
Yes, what was the ultimate kit will fade into history as new stuff comes along, but that is the way of things in MMO's and real life.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
i would have to agree with jason. Although it mighta sucked to lose your 60 gear that you worked hard for. Now you can get 70 gear :P And as far as your bro's guild dying my guild is growing at a huge rate, so maybe the numbers are false or maybe they arent.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
It would have been a big mistake NOT to increase the level cap. How many people would have really stuck around for MORE MC runs? And if they didn't raise the cap what could they have added? Could they have added Outland and made it all level 60 content? Who would have bothered with it? Let me ask you a question, once you hit lvl 60, did you continue to complete all the quests in those areas you hadn't finished yet? I didn't. I don't know anyone who did. Why would you? You couldn't gain much by doing it. So you really think they could have added 7 new zones of lvl 60 content and anyone would have bothered to do the quests? I don't see it.
And what about lower level content? Could they have added a whole other area of level 1 to 60 content? Some people have several alts and they would have enjoyed it, but there's a lot of folks who pretty much just play 1 character, they would have gotten nothing out of the expansion. And it's true that people who did not have a lvl 60 character didn't get as much from the expansion as those who did, but if you were Blizzard, which group of folks would you rather cater too? The group that has invested the most time and made it to level 60 already and completed most of what is available content wise or those that maybe were just starting out or only play casually and hadn't gotten a level 60 yet and hadn't completed all that was already there? I think it makes a lot more sense to add content for those who have completed all the content already then to add additional content for those who have not yet experienced all that there is to offer already, don't you?
Raising the level cap in virtually all MMORPGs is a terrible idea, and an unnecessary one.
Raising the level cap instantly trivializes and/or destroys old-world content. So, all developers end up achieving is making sure few people, if any, enjoy the content they already produced. You do not want this to happen.
Why would someone waste time running MC now? There is no point - spend an extra week or two getting to 70 from 60, and instantly get gear way better, not even from raids. Or, do old raids with twice the strength you should be doing them at, bore yourself to death, and do not get a worthwhile reward since you already have better stuff. At any rate, that MC raid they spent weeks or months developing is rendered obsolete. This is a destructive mechanic. A developer should never strive to make working content obsolete, but most do, and Blizzard is the worst offender by far, as old-world does not even compare at all to the new-world, and they have stated WotLK will be similar (in other words, as bad) - Blizzard basically admits they are on a mission to make every expansion an entirely new game that makes everything before it an exercise in pointlessness.
It is 100% possible to add loads of great new content, abilities, and gear without raising the level cap, which tends to make old-world content still viable, at least as a stepping stone. Instead of just skipping old content, players moving up the ranks now progress through it naturally toward the new content, as it should be. Your gear, spells, and progression are not suddenly worthless, as there does not exist that massive gap in power.
Is levelling fun? I suppose some may like it, and on that alone want the cap to increase. But that euphoria lasts for 10 "dings". Then what? Nothing. Levelling is just levelling and has nothing to do with anything past that. Levelling is not a prerequisite for new gear, new abilities, or new content.
DAoC, for example, did fine in its day and never increased the level cap. It showed it is possible to run a AAA MMORPG for years without resorting to the tired trick of raising the cap as a sloppy way to introduce more content.
Anyway, I am not against evolution - it must happen. I like new gear, zones, and abilities. I just feel additional levelling is destructive, unnecessary, and is akin to a developer taking some gasoline and a match and incinerating all high-end stuff to that point, which helps no one.
You're also forgetting about the destruction of replayability. I agree that increasing the level cap is a bad move. DAoC never increased its level cap and it did extremely well until WoW came out, but it also had more dynamic pvp that kept level 50's happy for a long, long time.
Anyway, when you increase your level cap to 70, the people that are bored with their current character will look at the old world and say, "I've got to go through all that again?" If they're not feeling this already, they surely will when they have to reach 80 instead. I would much rather be told at the beginning of the game, "The top level is 80 and getting to it is a bitch." Than, "You reach the top level! Great! Now here's 10, 20 or 30 more levels to go through!" C'mon. If you keep doing it, eventually everyone will quit. If the next expansion STILL doesn't have more class options (Shadow Knight. . .yay. . be still my heart
) and they increase the cap again to 90. . would you stay? Every time they do this, they strain out their playerbase a little bit more. Sooner or later, the only people that will be playing are the people that have the 70-80's anyway.
The only thing that is keeping WoW in such great business is that everything else out there right now is either crap or too old to make a comeback.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
/played: EQ, EQ II, DAoC, WoW, LoTRO, AoC, CoH/CoV, WAR, Aion, Tera, Wildstar and many others that don't merit listing
/playing: Clash of Clans, Hearthstone
@Puma
touche'
Although being a bluebie makes you a little less credible I like your chanter / nightshade combo.
- RR 7 L 4 NS Mordred
- RR 6 L 4 Enchanter Mordred
x_-
Raising the level cap is always a good idea at the right time
Sure, some have worked their ass off to get the gear and all that,
however, those who started later,
I took a break and the guild moved (RL friends) so I had to reroll and by the time I was at 60, there just wasn't any room for a fresh char without gear as they were moving on.
This happened to everyone who started at any later date and it sucked.
With a level raise, they reset the game and put everyone on an equal level.
This gave every newbie around a sporting chance to see the end-game content and become something.
I for one am glad they raise the cap annually, it gives me a sporting chance.
I've currently raided Karazhan this time around and that's all I've done.
No way in heck I'll get into The Eye and all that,
because I just ain't that hardcore,
however I was with the BC launch and got to 70 in time.
Also Blizzard added a crapload of good crafted and casual gear which holds well beyond Kara so it helps.
All in all, it is needed, it's called progression.
All MMOs do this and it's the best they can do if they want customers in the end.
Played so far: 9Dragons, AO, AC, AC2, CoX, DAoC, DF, DnL, DR, DDO, Ent, EvE, EQ, EQ2, FoMK, FFO, Fury, GW, HG:L, HZ, L1, L2, M59, MU, NC1, NC2, PS, PT, R:O, RF:O, RYL, Ryzom, SL, SB, SW:G, TR, TCoS, MX:O, UO, VG, WAR, WoW...
It all sucked.
Oooh, get you!
I have sent that little paragraph to a language student i know to try and get it translated, complete drivel!!!
WoW or any other game for that matter is what you make of it on a purely game playing and social level. I for one have never been a farmer/dungeon runner/raid junkie as it just doesn't appeal to me and i have never seen the absolute interest in spending five hours in a raid to maybe come out with one half decent item. Other players do feel the need to see their chars reach the pinnacle of what they can be with all the right gear and that is how they enjoy the game.
At the end of the day everyone, no matter how insulting or childish is entitled to an opinion, but that does not mean that it is valid or meanigful. As long as the person paying their subscription to the game enjoys playing it, that is all that will ever matter!
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
When 60 was the cap there was nothing to do but raid or do BGs. Many people didn't like either. The majority of WoW players are casual and don't even raid, so they were just alienating their main audience by not raising the level cap and not letting people do something other then raid or die or repetitive BGs. The old 60 days you levelled, things were great and could be done at your own pace then you hit a brick wall: raid, or the game's ended for you. At least at 70 there are few more things for non-raiders to do. And I'm happy the cap will be raised again, I just can't sit for many hours interrupted so as much as I'd like to do raids I can't and most people who play WoW can't either. Just because your brother's guild is quitting doesn't mean droves of players are gonna leave when the cap is being raised! The expansion will attract even more new players, since they are also increasing the exp gain for level 20-60 soon. WoW is the King of MMORPGs and shows no true signs of slowing down. The official forums only represent a minority of the playerbase, mostly bored doomsayers who constantly exaggerate things.
Two things have killed (or will kill) WoW
1) No more 40 man raids. Guilds are a dime a dozen now. I saw people pugging end-game content all the time post-BC. That was unheard of pre-BC.
2) BG's. World PvP was a blast but BG's have all but ended that now. And there's no way to go back so there you go. I know a lot of people like BG's but IMO, BG's have no place in an MMO. BG's are a 5 minute PvP instance.
I had a blast in WoW pre-BC. It wasn't the expansion that killed the game for me. It was the changes they made in the way the game was played. Blizz did everything right with the original WoW and I hope they have learned some lessons with expansions. Personally, I think they are just milking it now getting every penny out of it while they still can with expansions coming so fast.
Personally, I liked the level cap increase. I like getting new talents, new spells and new items, and I didn't care if I replaced purple Naxx stuff with green quest rewards. I liked getting new content, zones and dungeons, and I didn't mind that I wouldn't play the old ones anymore - I had already done them, probably a few times too often.
But after a while, the game just wasn't as fun anymore, so I decided to spend my time on other things (read: waste it on other games :P ). So what killed the game for me was the lack of more levels/content. The endgame's just too static for me I guess.
When 60 was the cap there was nothing to do but raid or do BGs. Many people didn't like either. The majority of WoW players are casual and don't even raid, so they were just alienating their main audience by not raising the level cap and not letting people do something other then raid or die or repetitive BGs. The old 60 days you levelled, things were great and could be done at your own pace then you hit a brick wall: raid, or the game's ended for you. At least at 70 there are few more things for non-raiders to do. And I'm happy the cap will be raised again, I just can't sit for many hours interrupted so as much as I'd like to do raids I can't and most people who play WoW can't either. Just because your brother's guild is quitting doesn't mean droves of players are gonna leave when the cap is being raised! The expansion will attract even more new players, since they are also increasing the exp gain for level 20-60 soon. WoW is the King of MMORPGs and shows no true signs of slowing down. The official forums only represent a minority of the playerbase, mostly bored doomsayers who constantly exaggerate things.
Are you serious? The're really doing all this plus exp boost? I'm sold YAA HER.....I'm so psyched.
Supposedly 30% exp boost for levels 20-58 and an overhaul for Uldaman and Gnomer instances, but Blizzard hasn't confirmed exactly when yet.
http://www.wowinsider.com/2007/08/24/experience-is-going-to-get-faster-sooner/
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh Well
Whatever
Nevermind
Since it took 2+ years to get the first expansion out I could understand them raising the cap. What I don't understand is them raising it again, apparently they haven't learned from the mistakes EQ makes (and still does). If they do the same thing again, the 71 greens will be comparable to stuff Illidan drops, so then why should I take all this time to raid only to have all my work trivialized by the first mob I kill in Northrend? Personally, I would of liked to see Northrend another 60+ zone. So to progress to 70 you can choose either Outland or Northrend. They could also then make the loots comparable to previous Outland loots, thus avoiding the "instant trivialization" that happened when TBC came out.
I liked how in DAoC they gave 50's other things to do besides "just level". You like pvp? Go earn points and get some realm abilities. You like raiding? Go to Atlantis and work on your master levels.
I also like how CoX rewarded you for hitting the cap by unlocking an epic archtype. The player gets a new class to play, with extra bells & whistles. The company gets a player continuing to sub as they work on a new character.
I'm sure they are gonna make a 3rd expansion. So they will raise the cap again to 90, all that 80 raid gear you worked so hard to get will be crap after you run the first 81-83 instance and players will have 400000 health and +5000 spell dmg in full greens. Great way to keep the game balanced Blizzard.
*EDIT*
Oh and on Death Knights, they really lost me when they said requires level 80 to unlock and then I get a level 50-55 Death Knight. So you're gonna force me to grind to 80 but then give me a character that is already near the original games level cap? I would of preferred one of my existing characters "becoming" a Hero Class, not some dude that shows up at my door "yo, I'm your new Death Knight where ya want me leveling?".
Yes radiator, Blizzard has done a terrible mistake.. terrible.. Good that you can set them straight. Now, how much did your company pull in last year?
___________________________________________________
Anatomy of a Fanboi
This is you.
You're good DrowNoble, you disguise it well, but I'm onto you now. Please explain how CoX Archtype's work to me because I'm confused. I thought they worked pretty much just like WoW hero classes only in CoX I believe you have to level up all over again. So If you liked how CoX did it, why are you saying you would have preferred WoW to have your character "become" a hero class. That's not what CoX did and why are you complaining about having to level again when you did it in CoX and you say you liked it? And while the Death Knight will show up close to the original cap since the cap will then be 80 and since it will probably take as long to go from 50 to 80 as it would from 1 to 50, that's pretty much starting over right in the middle which is a nice compromise.
So let me get this straight in regards to a lot of what the OP said...
The gaming divison that keeps reporting 90%+ growth every quarter (due to wow) isn't really making that money. The last quarter that was reported 2 or 3 weeks ago.. reported a 91% +/- increase from the same quarter last year (due to um WoW).. but they don't really have that profit... so basicly they are filing false financial statements?
Beyond that I guess.. you kind of lost me.
If the game isn't fun for "you" anymore... then you can state that as fact. I just find it hard to listen to claims of the decline of WoW (for years now). I mean as I said if you think the company is filing false financial statements... there are ways to get that investigated...
WoW isn't my kind of game.. no level/class based game is. I just find it odd to keep seeing claims of the decline or loss of subscriber base... when they revenue keeps going up and up (by quaterly company filings).
So there are two possibilities here:
1) You don't know what you are talkling about
2) The company is making false finanacial reports in which case the FTC or similar body should be involved..
Well, I can't call raising the level cap a "mistake" since so many players seem to like it and they certainly didn't mind buying the expansion pack.
When I realized where Blizzard was taking WOW with TBC, with ever increasing level caps that invalidated the gear you worked very hard for in the end game instances, I decided it was time to get off the treadmill.
But that's just me...some folks really like the game the way its implemented and they continue to play on.
Just don't make the mistake that thinking all games must increase the level cap (or even have levels for that matter) for players to continue enjoying the game....there are other ways to progress besides leveling.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
First off response to Pappy13...
I assume when you mean explain how CoX archtype work you are referring to the epic AT? When you get a hero to 50 you unlock the Warshade and Peacebringer, it's forever unlocked for you so you can make them on any server not the one you have your 50 on. Unlike other powersets which only have 9 powers, their primaries have 14 and secondary 12. Both also get a travel power as an inherent right at level one. At level 6 and 20 you have the option to get the shapeshift powers, which turn you into a nova (at 6, blaster) or a dwarf (at 20, tanker). Each form has ehanced end recovery and unique powers useable only in that form. Nova has natural tohit buffs and dwarf has natural damage resistance, can be boosted with enhancements. Upon leaving the tutorial (or directly entering game) you get a special contact that will give you missions all the way to 50.
Now I don't mind the leveling in CoX for a few reasons. Most important is that I enjoy the story arcs, many missions are fun and I look forward to doing them. The sheer number of missions means that I have missed some leveling up before, so now is my chance to do This Contact's missions instead of That One's. Next reason is that they didn't raise the cap, it's still 50 so my baby Warshade didn't have a higher hill to climb as my original scrapper did.
Now as to why I said I would prefer my Hero Class be my "old class" that became a <whatever> it is because simply I've done the 1-59 for over 2 years. I wouldn't mind really if they just made it an unlockable class to start at level one, I just meant I would prefer they let me make my pally a Death Knight. Lore-wise that would still make sense, the paladin goes to Northrend and is "corrupted" by what he encounters and "falls" from the Light, becoming a Death Knight. It would also allow me to continue to use him instead of benching him in favor of yet another alt.
Now for cupertino...
It is not a lie that people replaced raid gear with TBC greens, that is a simple fact. Don't believe me go check the armory, you'll find many 60-63's that have greens or Hellfire Citadel blues instead of T1/2 raid gear. Now the T3+ stuff does tend to last a little longer, but not as far as 68, if it took you that long to replace your pre-BC raid gear you must be the unluckiest roller in WoW history. Many of the simple quest items are worth replacing a old-world epic as well. I know Blizzard wanted to help out the casuals and get people geared up but geez they could of toned it down a bit!
Obviously you never played DAoC so I will clarify what i said about what to do at 50 there. PvPing in WoW just earns you points that you buy That Nifty Item, it is done differently in DAoC. As you earn realm points (honor) you will gain realm ranks, at each rank you gain a realm skill point, those points are used to buy abilities that become permenant. These abilities are stat bonuses, damage modifiers, faster stealth speed, etc. Think of it like this, you could have an ability that did the same thing as the PvP trinket, without equipping anything. For those that preferred raiding to RvR, you could work on your Master Levels or aquire an artifact. Working up your Master Levels would also gain you permenant abilites on top of whatever you already earned from RvR. Artifacts were weak initially but would gain xp whenever you killed specific targets, they would then level up gaining new abilities for you as well. So although the cap is still 50, there were 3 different ways to continue developing your character. They did add Champion levels as well but that was after I left the game so I can't comment on how those work.
I'm also a tad confused on which "damn game" I'm supposed to go play and see for myself. I've played both games with characters at each game's respective cap. Done pvp in both, raided in both, ran a guild in both, etc.
I do not find leveling necessarily a grind. As I said before I enjoy going through levels in CoX as I enjoy the content so it never seems like I'm grinding. When they said that the Hero Class would require an 80, knowing that people want a Hero Class, they will most likely make the leveling curve steeper 71-80 than 61-70 was. This could also change during development. Course that probably won't stop another gnome from dinging 80 in a day.
Blizzard had no choice, but to raise the level cap. You have to look at their target audience. It is the casual PVE player who makes a good portion of their subscriber base. A lot of these people never raid or PVP. If they did not provide content for them, then Blizzard would lose them.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."