The reason why game developers don't create a game with all the concepts Darkfall has is simple, you can't. Theres no way with current technology that you will have 10k people per server, plus fps combat with dodging manual block etc, and no loading/instances etc to cut down on lag and actually expect it to work, this is on top of all the other features they have all of which are apparently in game and fully fuctional enough for them to add more features if you see the recent update.
Lets take the siege combat in age of conan for instance, even with all the npcs not moving the game was obviously lagging like hell on a top of the range pc. So now take into account this is instanced, with turn based type combat ( hit misses etc ), and the company behind it actually know what they are doing, and the build it self had no other players on it.
Now compare to Darkfall, they have fps combat, no instances, and the company behind it arguably hasn't a clue what they are doing. They also have never had any proof that anything they have works, apart from 3 really crap videos that showed an outdated game in a controlled environment 1 of which is a fan made video btw, and appart from the combat system they haven't shown the main part of the game the siege combat actually works since it will arguably what tests the game the most.
So are we expected to believe a company that has nothing to show after 7 years has done what a multi million pound company with loads of expereince can't?
I won't list all the other reasons why it won't work they are obvious plus it would be off topic.
I forget the exact numbers that were released about L2. But it was around 1-2million total players and less then 200K were western gamers. So as I said relatively it was a failure in the West compared to in the East.
Secondly Darkfall is Vaporware. It will never get released. Someone recently posted an archived page from MMORPG from around 5+ years ago and guess what? Darkfall was listed on there. 10 Years from now Darkfall will probably still be listed under development.
Why is it that every time someone starts losing an argument about this game they always whip out the old "It's vaporware cause I say so" argument? If this is all you got it's time to admit defeat and move on. Darkfall apparently has nothing for you so why are you even posting here?
Also I think you'll find the numbers for NA L2 were closer to the 400k mark which is by no means a failure for a MMO by any standards. Most of the MMO's that have come out since WoW only wish they had that kind of numbers playing.
It has yet to be proven that a PVP oriented game like DF can be a big, commercial success, unlike games who've followed the EQ/WOW mold. Once DF or some other PVP focused game hits the big time...then you'll see more companies pouring resources into them... but first...someone needs to create a PVP focused game that doesn't suck.... been a while since that has happened.
its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video ), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
Because this sentence:
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.
Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
as soon as you grouped aoc as a generic mmo along with wow and war I knew you know nothing. darkfall online is way more generic plus vapourware.
AoC looks pretty interesting too me actually (they will have an FFA Server too). also had hopes for Huxley or just basically any game that's trying to integrate more player skill into the mix- spellborn, maybe TR if they add more PVP features, Hellgate London, etc
The nice thing bout AoC they are at least pursuing a minor risk vs reward system for border kingdoms. plus they're at least trying to let Guilds own land and add sieges, etc. notice they';ve been in development a long time. integrating dynamic features is simply not a trivial thing
only bad thing is its using the Classes and Levels formula again. no one is really strasying away from that. that is the disappointing part. Well Pirates of Burning Sea is at least doing some innovative stuff
It has yet to be proven that a PVP oriented game like DF can be a big, commercial success, unlike games who've followed the EQ/WOW mold. Once DF or some other PVP focused game hits the big time...then you'll see more companies pouring resources into them... but first...someone needs to create a PVP focused game that doesn't suck.... been a while since that has happened.
its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
in a FFA sandbox game will little to no PVP rules, PVE players will be forced to PVP or find another game to play.
it's just the very nature of many "hardcore" PVP players, they'll fight anyone at any time for any reason, and why not wait till that MOB/NPC almost killed them? Then you can swoop in and kill them/steal their loot/equipment. It happens in EVERY MMO with full FFA PVP
It's NOT going to be a popular game to any but the most hardcore PVP types, most MMO players don't want FPS style combat and zero PVP rules.
I'd love a great sandbox game where I could choose to PVP not be forced into it. Even if it had a very good FPS combat system like Oblivion. Best I've seen to date was old SWG with the Imperial vs. Rebel, you could go "Overt" when looking for PVP or "Covert" for playing PVE safely. It was still a great sandbox game with tons of awesome and fun world PVP, cities, etc.
Not giving players a choice, forcing them to do something they don't want to do... too much like real life and the vast majority of players do not want that.
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video ), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
Because this sentence:
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.
Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.
Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
It has yet to be proven that a PVP oriented game like DF can be a big, commercial success, unlike games who've followed the EQ/WOW mold. Once DF or some other PVP focused game hits the big time...then you'll see more companies pouring resources into them... but first...someone needs to create a PVP focused game that doesn't suck.... been a while since that has happened.
its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
in a FFA sandbox game will little to no PVP rules, PVE players will be forced to PVP or find another game to play.
it's just the very nature of many "hardcore" PVP players, they'll fight anyone at any time for any reason, and why not wait till that MOB/NPC almost killed them? Then you can swoop in and kill them/steal their loot/equipment. It happens in EVERY MMO with full FFA PVP
It's NOT going to be a popular game to any but the most hardcore PVP types, most MMO players don't want FPS style combat and zero PVP rules.
I'd love a great sandbox game where I could choose to PVP not be forced into it. Even if it had a very good FPS combat system like Oblivion. Best I've seen to date was old SWG with the Imperial vs. Rebel, you could go "Overt" when looking for PVP or "Covert" for playing PVE safely. It was still a great sandbox game with tons of awesome and fun world PVP, cities, etc.
Not giving players a choice, forcing them to do something they don't want to do... too much like real life and the vast majority of players do not want that.
you need to go read the FAQ. Guilds can own land and offer protection to PVE'ers
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively
i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about
The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you.
Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you.
How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone."
The answer is like six. Six people.
Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands.
It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites.
To me, that is total crap.
I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player.
Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP?
No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll
Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video ), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
Because this sentence:
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.
Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.
Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
Many, many people here in western hemisphere started out in EQ you can checkout the mmorpg charts do whatever you like. I see nothing to discuss further on this matter. most of those titles you're listing are from Asia
heerboya you need to spend more time in FFA PVP games. In EVE I never once got ganked in Alliance space my guild owned. Its called 'bottlenecks'. Our enemies had to come through a gate. we had 24/7 protection there. I flew around with 0 guns on my miner/salvager ships in 0.0
aim/dodge - FPS. Darkfall will have that. Zergs. um, we have aim. MMOs have TAB makes it easy for newbies to shoot you. FPS games dont have this problem. I see small teams win fights daily in Battlefield and other FPS titles.
I gotta run but what never ceases to amaze is how few understand Skill Based titles. Play UO? You could skill up in a freakin DUEL or fighting a Training Dummy. It doesnt matter what you do
Quests- um, we dont need those in skill based titles. they add texture and direction sure. But we can progress directly by crafting and/or dueling. also during PVP you skill up
No need for hand holding. we dont need glowing NPCs in skjill based titles. In EVE sure people run the missions but its not necessary. they can add the quests and people will do them. but they wont be required
so getting ganked during a quest. Um, you gonna be skilling up while you're getting ganked this isnt WoW
i had enough FFA pvp in UO years and years ago. I hated it then, hate it now. I guess I don't hate the concept I just hate the gankers/griefers who ONLY do it to piss off other people.
when they added the factions system, yeah, there were stil murderers running around, and yes I did play a murderous Orc on Siege perilous.. but the game HAD no pve content and gear didn't matter. It was all about just... doing stuff. No getting killed randomly mid-quest and losing your hard earned coined.
And Vajuras,
what if some noob wanted to come through your corps gate to mine that wasn't guilded or just made a mistake and came through by accident?
you'd kill him too? There goes his ship and all he's worked for towards it.
I just don't see the fun in that, at all, and I guess that's the fundamental difference between you and I. Still, i love debating with you ! you're actually intelligent!
I gotta run but what never ceases to amaze is how few understand Skill Based titles. Play UO? You could skill up in a freakin DUEL or fighting a Training Dummy. It doesnt matter what you do Quests- um, we dont need those in skill based titles. they add texture and direction sure. But we can progress directly by crafting and/or dueling. also during PVP you skill up
No need for hand holding. we dont need glowing NPCs in skjill based titles. In EVE sure people run the missions but its not necessary. they can add the quests and people will do them. but they wont be required
so getting ganked during a quest. Um, you gonna be skilling up while you're getting ganked this isnt WoW
see, that was harsh. and we were doing so well being civil...
I know how skill based games work. I know how level based games work. Don't insult me bro
Darkfall and PvP games in general are a niche market, that is just a truth that most all of us pvp vets have had to come to deal with over the years. If you don't by into that fact, you are deluding yourselves. The number of people that enjoy pvp in a MMORPG is smaller than the group that like to PvE. There are a lot of reasons for this, but its just a truth, deal with it.
no major developers are making these games because the pvp player cares more about a good game with good balance then a pve player. For pvp to flourish you need a good strong game...more so then with a pve game. Balance, performance, or any other problem is just more of a problem in a pvp game then it ever is in a pve game. PvE players may argue about this one, but this is also just a truth that you have to deal with.
Overall making a very good pvp game is just a lot harder (it is just harder to balance for pvp), and most likely going to attract a smaller audience then one f the generic pve games out there. So the big development studios put their money into easier projects that are likely to have bigger gains.
If a good or great pvp ever gets made, it will make money. If that happens you will see people going out their and risking money on new titles to attract that games players. But nobody has made a good game in a very long time. Eve is close, but that game is never going to be something the masses can get into.
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
i had enough FFA pvp in UO years and years ago. I hated it then, hate it now. I guess I don't hate the concept I just hate the gankers/griefers who ONLY do it to piss off other people. when they added the factions system, yeah, there were stil murderers running around, and yes I did play a murderous Orc on Siege perilous.. but the game HAD no pve content and gear didn't matter. It was all about just... doing stuff. No getting killed randomly mid-quest and losing your hard earned coined. And Vajuras, what if some noob wanted to come through your corps gate to mine that wasn't guilded or just made a mistake and came through by accident? you'd kill him too? There goes his ship and all he's worked for towards it. I just don't see the fun in that, at all, and I guess that's the fundamental difference between you and I. Still, i love debating with you ! you're actually intelligent!
You either loved UO PvP or hated it. I cant understand why some people mind getting killed and losing all their stuff. I just never had. Its all just pixels to me. I usually barely have any gold/isk anything most of the time I play. I pvp till I loose all my stuff, then go get more. Its a cycle and I am always poor in game, but I am almost always having some fun.
I have always had more fun losing the stuff. I think that is the key difference between a player like you and me. Its not that there is anything inherently wrong with either game style, its just we have fun doing different things.
I play eve, and yeah if your mining or ratting on traveling through my space - your ship goes boom and your pod goes squish. Its not about ruining someones day (although there are a very, very few people that play that way) killing newbs is not very fullfilling at all, but it is necessary. I hate camping gates personally. Busting gate camps on the other hand is pure win.
For me I like pvp for the challenge and the adreniline rush from a good fight where there is a real good chance you are going to loose.
Although i also enjoy outsmarting someone and bringing in a setup that if pulled off correctly is an guaranteed kill. There is a thrill in outsmarting your opponent, outplaying your opponent.
There is a thrill to good pvp combat in a conquest style mmorpg that you will never get from an FPS game like counter strike. It just does not feel the same, i cannot explain why, but when there is something to loose the fight is more fun.
P.S. 2 of my greatest fights in a mmorpg PvP game ended with me loosing all my stuff (i never said i was good at these things)
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video ), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
You either loved UO PvP or hated it. I cant understand why some people mind getting killed and losing all their stuff. I just never had. Its all just pixels to me. I usually barely have any gold/isk anything most of the time I play. I pvp till I loose all my stuff, then go get more. Its a cycle and I am always poor in game, but I am almost always having some fun. I have always had more fun losing the stuff. I think that is the key difference between a player like you and me. Its not that there is anything inherently wrong with either game style, its just we have fun doing different things.
If you don't mind losing all your stuff, that's fine and like you say, there's nothing wrong with either style of play, but I disagree with you when you say you are not losing anything more than just pixels. You've also lost all the time you've committed to acquiring that stuff. And that's the biggest problem I have with PvP where you can loot another player's items. I would find it extremely frustrating if I spent hours or even days doing some kind of quest to gain a rare item only to end up losing it in a fight that lasts only a few seconds. And the comeback that you deserve to lose your stuff if you can't win a fight doesn't hold up imo because no amount of stuff can save you if you find yourself in a fight where you are heavily outnumbered.
So I don't necessarily see anything wrong with PvP, but it can be a chaotic environment and I believe it is improved when there are certain safeguards built into such a game. I would add that PvP is the one aspect about Darkfall that doesn't appeal to me, but there are so many other interesting ideas about that game that I could overlook that and still try the game.
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
I think you've said it best. That last paragraph was pure gold.
It's happened in EVERY FFA PVP game out there, it'll happen in DF. Usually those who love these types of games are the ones who are in the uber guilds, free from the opression they cause to others.
So the game becomes a couple of uber guilds battling each other, which is awesome for those 50-100 people or whatever, but really bad for everyone else.
I enjoyed being a murderer in UO on Siege Perilous because I was in a large, great guild with lots of RP and support.
And yes, I am under the impression that most people are evil, and if given the opportunity will kill others for personal gain, even though the other person did nothing to them. It's the typical motive of the PK player... and what I see in some of the postings in this thread tells me that those who absolutely love DF are those kinds of people, and I grew tired of playing that type of game with those types of people 10 years ago with UO in 97.
No offense to those types of people or the posters here on MMORPG.com, but most of the hardcore DF supporters seem to fall into that catagory fully based off the tone and content of their posts.
Plenty of games already out there for the faint of heart. Gimme darkfall, i don't have tons of time to play but if you think i can't compete then you are crazy. Its easy to kill people when they are fighting something else, or at half health, or when you got em outnumbered. If one of these conditions is not met then you can always run. Doesn't matter if they are in a "superguild" or not, they still die and usually will drop awesome loot. Sure, the superguilds might catch their antagonists eventually but they are usually too busy with their own politics and crap to hunt a simple ganker all the time. All their good loot will make them prime targets.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now! I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Just because Darkfall proposes it, doesnt mean that it holds water.
Let me propose to balance the federal budget, fix social security, cure AIDS and make it everyones inate right to have free Pizza every Friday. Great ideas (to me at least), yet implimentation is the issue. Anyone can spout proposals, not everyone can back up words with actions. I dont care what Darkfall designers propose, I want to see the action and implimentation...then I will give them credit.
I don't think it's a question of being "feint at heart" so please don't try to sound so bad @$$
To me and many others, it's not a "badge" or sign of greatness and hardcore-ness to really want FFA unforgiving systems like are offered in DF...
most people play games to have fun.
it is more rewarding to fear your death but then come out victorious, there is no feeling quite like it. running train on noobs all day long gets old fast (for normal people)
but losing, and having everything you worked toward destroyed? that's just heartbreaking
I don't think many of you realize that the "thrill" is in coming close to "near-death" but still winning in the end,
because there is nothing at all fun about death. there are no "second place winners" in true competitive play
there has to be a fine line between what is challenging and worth fighting for,
and what is simply excessive and unwarranted.
I have not YET seen a MMO that was able to find that fine line and tip-toe across it without falling one way or the other
Comments
The reason why game developers don't create a game with all the concepts Darkfall has is simple, you can't. Theres no way with current technology that you will have 10k people per server, plus fps combat with dodging manual block etc, and no loading/instances etc to cut down on lag and actually expect it to work, this is on top of all the other features they have all of which are apparently in game and fully fuctional enough for them to add more features if you see the recent update.
Lets take the siege combat in age of conan for instance, even with all the npcs not moving the game was obviously lagging like hell on a top of the range pc. So now take into account this is instanced, with turn based type combat ( hit misses etc ), and the company behind it actually know what they are doing, and the build it self had no other players on it.
Now compare to Darkfall, they have fps combat, no instances, and the company behind it arguably hasn't a clue what they are doing. They also have never had any proof that anything they have works, apart from 3 really crap videos that showed an outdated game in a controlled environment 1 of which is a fan made video btw, and appart from the combat system they haven't shown the main part of the game the siege combat actually works since it will arguably what tests the game the most.
So are we expected to believe a company that has nothing to show after 7 years has done what a multi million pound company with loads of expereince can't?
I won't list all the other reasons why it won't work they are obvious plus it would be off topic.
Also I think you'll find the numbers for NA L2 were closer to the 400k mark which is by no means a failure for a MMO by any standards. Most of the MMO's that have come out since WoW only wish they had that kind of numbers playing.
Bren
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its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
AoC looks pretty interesting too me actually (they will have an FFA Server too). also had hopes for Huxley or just basically any game that's trying to integrate more player skill into the mix- spellborn, maybe TR if they add more PVP features, Hellgate London, etc
The nice thing bout AoC they are at least pursuing a minor risk vs reward system for border kingdoms. plus they're at least trying to let Guilds own land and add sieges, etc. notice they';ve been in development a long time. integrating dynamic features is simply not a trivial thing
only bad thing is its using the Classes and Levels formula again. no one is really strasying away from that. that is the disappointing part. Well Pirates of Burning Sea is at least doing some innovative stuff
so its not all gloom
its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
in a FFA sandbox game will little to no PVP rules, PVE players will be forced to PVP or find another game to play.
it's just the very nature of many "hardcore" PVP players, they'll fight anyone at any time for any reason, and why not wait till that MOB/NPC almost killed them? Then you can swoop in and kill them/steal their loot/equipment. It happens in EVERY MMO with full FFA PVP
It's NOT going to be a popular game to any but the most hardcore PVP types, most MMO players don't want FPS style combat and zero PVP rules.
I'd love a great sandbox game where I could choose to PVP not be forced into it. Even if it had a very good FPS combat system like Oblivion. Best I've seen to date was old SWG with the Imperial vs. Rebel, you could go "Overt" when looking for PVP or "Covert" for playing PVE safely. It was still a great sandbox game with tons of awesome and fun world PVP, cities, etc.
Not giving players a choice, forcing them to do something they don't want to do... too much like real life and the vast majority of players do not want that.
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
its not a PVP focused game it says right in their FAQ its much more then that. its a sandbox, full blown. there's plenty of PVE'ers on the DF forums
in a FFA sandbox game will little to no PVP rules, PVE players will be forced to PVP or find another game to play.
it's just the very nature of many "hardcore" PVP players, they'll fight anyone at any time for any reason, and why not wait till that MOB/NPC almost killed them? Then you can swoop in and kill them/steal their loot/equipment. It happens in EVERY MMO with full FFA PVP
It's NOT going to be a popular game to any but the most hardcore PVP types, most MMO players don't want FPS style combat and zero PVP rules.
I'd love a great sandbox game where I could choose to PVP not be forced into it. Even if it had a very good FPS combat system like Oblivion. Best I've seen to date was old SWG with the Imperial vs. Rebel, you could go "Overt" when looking for PVP or "Covert" for playing PVE safely. It was still a great sandbox game with tons of awesome and fun world PVP, cities, etc.
Not giving players a choice, forcing them to do something they don't want to do... too much like real life and the vast majority of players do not want that.
you need to go read the FAQ. Guilds can own land and offer protection to PVE'ers
plus its a HUGE landmass.
assumptions < reading FAQs
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively
i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about
The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you.
Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you.
How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone."
The answer is like six. Six people.
Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands.
It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites.
To me, that is total crap.
I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player.
Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP?
No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll
Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
Many, many people here in western hemisphere started out in EQ you can checkout the mmorpg charts do whatever you like. I see nothing to discuss further on this matter. most of those titles you're listing are from Asia
heerboya you need to spend more time in FFA PVP games. In EVE I never once got ganked in Alliance space my guild owned. Its called 'bottlenecks'. Our enemies had to come through a gate. we had 24/7 protection there. I flew around with 0 guns on my miner/salvager ships in 0.0
aim/dodge - FPS. Darkfall will have that. Zergs. um, we have aim. MMOs have TAB makes it easy for newbies to shoot you. FPS games dont have this problem. I see small teams win fights daily in Battlefield and other FPS titles.
I gotta run but what never ceases to amaze is how few understand Skill Based titles. Play UO? You could skill up in a freakin DUEL or fighting a Training Dummy. It doesnt matter what you do
Quests- um, we dont need those in skill based titles. they add texture and direction sure. But we can progress directly by crafting and/or dueling. also during PVP you skill up
No need for hand holding. we dont need glowing NPCs in skjill based titles. In EVE sure people run the missions but its not necessary. they can add the quests and people will do them. but they wont be required
so getting ganked during a quest. Um, you gonna be skilling up while you're getting ganked this isnt WoW
i had enough FFA pvp in UO years and years ago. I hated it then, hate it now. I guess I don't hate the concept I just hate the gankers/griefers who ONLY do it to piss off other people.
when they added the factions system, yeah, there were stil murderers running around, and yes I did play a murderous Orc on Siege perilous.. but the game HAD no pve content and gear didn't matter. It was all about just... doing stuff. No getting killed randomly mid-quest and losing your hard earned coined.
And Vajuras,
what if some noob wanted to come through your corps gate to mine that wasn't guilded or just made a mistake and came through by accident?
you'd kill him too? There goes his ship and all he's worked for towards it.
I just don't see the fun in that, at all, and I guess that's the fundamental difference between you and I. Still, i love debating with you ! you're actually intelligent!
see, that was harsh. and we were doing so well being civil...
I know how skill based games work. I know how level based games work. Don't insult me bro
Darkfall and PvP games in general are a niche market, that is just a truth that most all of us pvp vets have had to come to deal with over the years. If you don't by into that fact, you are deluding yourselves. The number of people that enjoy pvp in a MMORPG is smaller than the group that like to PvE. There are a lot of reasons for this, but its just a truth, deal with it.
no major developers are making these games because the pvp player cares more about a good game with good balance then a pve player. For pvp to flourish you need a good strong game...more so then with a pve game. Balance, performance, or any other problem is just more of a problem in a pvp game then it ever is in a pve game. PvE players may argue about this one, but this is also just a truth that you have to deal with.
Overall making a very good pvp game is just a lot harder (it is just harder to balance for pvp), and most likely going to attract a smaller audience then one f the generic pve games out there. So the big development studios put their money into easier projects that are likely to have bigger gains.
If a good or great pvp ever gets made, it will make money. If that happens you will see people going out their and risking money on new titles to attract that games players. But nobody has made a good game in a very long time. Eve is close, but that game is never going to be something the masses can get into.
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
you should read about the game before you say anything..
You either loved UO PvP or hated it. I cant understand why some people mind getting killed and losing all their stuff. I just never had. Its all just pixels to me. I usually barely have any gold/isk anything most of the time I play. I pvp till I loose all my stuff, then go get more. Its a cycle and I am always poor in game, but I am almost always having some fun.
I have always had more fun losing the stuff. I think that is the key difference between a player like you and me. Its not that there is anything inherently wrong with either game style, its just we have fun doing different things.
I play eve, and yeah if your mining or ratting on traveling through my space - your ship goes boom and your pod goes squish. Its not about ruining someones day (although there are a very, very few people that play that way) killing newbs is not very fullfilling at all, but it is necessary. I hate camping gates personally. Busting gate camps on the other hand is pure win.
For me I like pvp for the challenge and the adreniline rush from a good fight where there is a real good chance you are going to loose.
Although i also enjoy outsmarting someone and bringing in a setup that if pulled off correctly is an guaranteed kill. There is a thrill in outsmarting your opponent, outplaying your opponent.
There is a thrill to good pvp combat in a conquest style mmorpg that you will never get from an FPS game like counter strike. It just does not feel the same, i cannot explain why, but when there is something to loose the fight is more fun.
P.S. 2 of my greatest fights in a mmorpg PvP game ended with me loosing all my stuff (i never said i was good at these things)
I totally agree.
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
War Beta Tester
So I don't necessarily see anything wrong with PvP, but it can be a chaotic environment and I believe it is improved when there are certain safeguards built into such a game. I would add that PvP is the one aspect about Darkfall that doesn't appeal to me, but there are so many other interesting ideas about that game that I could overlook that and still try the game.
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
I think you've said it best. That last paragraph was pure gold.
It's happened in EVERY FFA PVP game out there, it'll happen in DF. Usually those who love these types of games are the ones who are in the uber guilds, free from the opression they cause to others.
So the game becomes a couple of uber guilds battling each other, which is awesome for those 50-100 people or whatever, but really bad for everyone else.
I enjoyed being a murderer in UO on Siege Perilous because I was in a large, great guild with lots of RP and support.
And yes, I am under the impression that most people are evil, and if given the opportunity will kill others for personal gain, even though the other person did nothing to them. It's the typical motive of the PK player... and what I see in some of the postings in this thread tells me that those who absolutely love DF are those kinds of people, and I grew tired of playing that type of game with those types of people 10 years ago with UO in 97.
No offense to those types of people or the posters here on MMORPG.com, but most of the hardcore DF supporters seem to fall into that catagory fully based off the tone and content of their posts.
Plenty of games already out there for the faint of heart. Gimme darkfall, i don't have tons of time to play but if you think i can't compete then you are crazy. Its easy to kill people when they are fighting something else, or at half health, or when you got em outnumbered. If one of these conditions is not met then you can always run. Doesn't matter if they are in a "superguild" or not, they still die and usually will drop awesome loot. Sure, the superguilds might catch their antagonists eventually but they are usually too busy with their own politics and crap to hunt a simple ganker all the time. All their good loot will make them prime targets.
Are you a Pavlovian Fish Biscuit Addict? Get Help Now!
I will play no more MMORPGs until somethign good comes out!
Just because Darkfall proposes it, doesnt mean that it holds water.
Let me propose to balance the federal budget, fix social security, cure AIDS and make it everyones inate right to have free Pizza every Friday. Great ideas (to me at least), yet implimentation is the issue. Anyone can spout proposals, not everyone can back up words with actions. I dont care what Darkfall designers propose, I want to see the action and implimentation...then I will give them credit.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I don't think it's a question of being "feint at heart" so please don't try to sound so bad @$$
To me and many others, it's not a "badge" or sign of greatness and hardcore-ness to really want FFA unforgiving systems like are offered in DF...
most people play games to have fun.
it is more rewarding to fear your death but then come out victorious, there is no feeling quite like it. running train on noobs all day long gets old fast (for normal people)
but losing, and having everything you worked toward destroyed? that's just heartbreaking
I don't think many of you realize that the "thrill" is in coming close to "near-death" but still winning in the end,
because there is nothing at all fun about death. there are no "second place winners" in true competitive play
there has to be a fine line between what is challenging and worth fighting for,
and what is simply excessive and unwarranted.
I have not YET seen a MMO that was able to find that fine line and tip-toe across it without falling one way or the other