You either loved UO PvP or hated it. I cant understand why some people mind getting killed and losing all their stuff. I just never had. Its all just pixels to me. I usually barely have any gold/isk anything most of the time I play. I pvp till I loose all my stuff, then go get more. Its a cycle and I am always poor in game, but I am almost always having some fun. I have always had more fun losing the stuff. I think that is the key difference between a player like you and me. Its not that there is anything inherently wrong with either game style, its just we have fun doing different things.
If you don't mind losing all your stuff, that's fine and like you say, there's nothing wrong with either style of play, but I disagree with you when you say you are not losing anything more than just pixels. You've also lost all the time you've committed to acquiring that stuff. And that's the biggest problem I have with PvP where you can loot another player's items. I would find it extremely frustrating if I spent hours or even days doing some kind of quest to gain a rare item only to end up losing it in a fight that lasts only a few seconds. And the comeback that you deserve to lose your stuff if you can't win a fight doesn't hold up imo because no amount of stuff can save you if you find yourself in a fight where you are heavily outnumbered.
So I don't necessarily see anything wrong with PvP, but it can be a chaotic environment and I believe it is improved when there are certain safeguards built into such a game. I would add that PvP is the one aspect about Darkfall that doesn't appeal to me, but there are so many other interesting ideas about that game that I could overlook that and still try the game.
The better pvp games IMO are the ones that are less gear dependent for the reason you state.
And i may have overstated how much i do not care about losing stuff. I care, and sometimes certain loses have been near heartbreaking in the stupidity of the way i lost it (usually getting totally ganked by a large force because i was being careless). Its the possibility of losing something that makes the pvp fun for me.
I would also agree, that some of their ideas for pve content being dynamic sounds very cool. The crafting sounds cool. There is a lot beyond PKing in DF that seems cool. Whether or not the game gets made or not is another story. It could suck as well.
But it doesnt change the point that there is a sizeable niche market out there that would enjoy a brutal conquest style pvp game.
biggest vaporware ever. It's like some kind of odd social experiment now. This thing has been in development since I started High School. I am now out out of College.
If you don't mind losing all your stuff, that's fine and like you say, there's nothing wrong with either style of play, but I disagree with you when you say you are not losing anything more than just pixels. You've also lost all the time you've committed to acquiring that stuff. And that's the biggest problem I have with PvP where you can loot another player's items. I would find it extremely frustrating if I spent hours or even days doing some kind of quest to gain a rare item only to end up losing it in a fight that lasts only a few seconds.
This is why UO (REAL UO, before the original creators left) was king. In UO, there were no Uber-Carebare-Magic-Sword-of-Doom weapons that you had to spend 50 hours trying to get. There were about 3 levels of magic items and they were only mildly better than regular ones. If you had the BEST magic sword and you fought a guy with a regular sword, the guy with the regular sword could still beat you because UO pvp REQUIRED the person behind the computer to actually know how to win a fight with strategy and your items did not matter.
When you died in UO, the stuff you were carrying was lootable (although if you were an innocent and someone other than your guildmate looted you, they turned grey in color and people could attack them without penalty). However, the stuff you were carrying did not define you. Your items were not that difficult to replace, so while you did mind that you lost them... you weren't going to be heartbroken beacuse items are easy to come by.
Current MMORPGs are designed to keep you playing for hours on end. Therefore, they create these insanely long/boring quests for uber items that you would probably cry if you lost. This needs to go away.
If you make items less important, then you can have looting and more acceptable PvP. People still bitched in UO when they died, but it was because their pride was hurt... which is a GOOD thing. Get stronger, form a posse, or do whatever it takes to kill that person and get revenge and imagine how much fun it will be when you loot their stuff. This lends personality to PvP, which all MMORPGs currently lack.
Darkfall and PvP games in general are a niche market, that is just a truth that most all of us pvp vets have had to come to deal with over the years.
speak for yourself PVP games aren't niche. Unreal Tournament, Crysis, Quake Wars, and the list jsut goes on and on.
They are niche in MMO land- in a world dominated by dice rolls and noobs running out in the open getting spiked to death (see guild wars). On ventrillo its this simple:
call target
Hit TAB
Everyone spike the target
In FPS games player skill are involved. PVP is niche in MMO world and will always be niche until aim/dodge is integrated. that simple
PVP vets in FPS space we are not attracted to the thought of uber gear determining victory and dice rolls.
Darkfall, huxley, and the list just goes on and on for developers thats realizing this and integrating aim/dodge
Darkfall as we all know proposes a lot (see this video ), but has very little to actually show for. NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this. So, what is the problem with MMO companies not trying to emulate what DFO has proposed? Instead of trying to create something like Darkfall promises which so many people are salivating for DESPITE the fact we all know that it is more than likely just a dream, they continually cram these generic MMO's down our throat (WoW, WAR, AoC). I find it hard to believe companies with substantial funds have not tried to buy the license for Darkfall or follow in its path. MMO's are beginning to get stale in general, and long time players are starting to get jaded and want more. Unfortunately, game developers and companies are selling MMO's out to the lowest common denominator, simple players who don't demand more than a single player game with little more depth and community than Diablo 2. For the love of god would some company with larger budgets (Mythic, SoE, Cryptic, Blizzard) take a chance and create something like this, instead of create artificial grinds through expansion "content"!
Because this sentence:
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.
Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.
Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
Many, many people here in western hemisphere started out in EQ you can checkout the mmorpg charts do whatever you like. I see nothing to discuss further on this matter. most of those titles you're listing are from Asia
Well many people also started in UO, so I don't really see your point.
If you don't mind losing all your stuff, that's fine and like you say, there's nothing wrong with either style of play, but I disagree with you when you say you are not losing anything more than just pixels. You've also lost all the time you've committed to acquiring that stuff. And that's the biggest problem I have with PvP where you can loot another player's items. I would find it extremely frustrating if I spent hours or even days doing some kind of quest to gain a rare item only to end up losing it in a fight that lasts only a few seconds.
This is why UO (REAL UO, before the original creators left) was king. In UO, there were no Uber-Carebare-Magic-Sword-of-Doom weapons that you had to spend 50 hours trying to get. There were about 3 levels of magic items and they were only mildly better than regular ones. If you had the BEST magic sword and you fought a guy with a regular sword, the guy with the regular sword could still beat you because UO pvp REQUIRED the person behind the computer to actually know how to win a fight with strategy and your items did not matter.
When you died in UO, the stuff you were carrying was lootable (although if you were an innocent and someone other than your guildmate looted you, they turned grey in color and people could attack them without penalty). However, the stuff you were carrying did not define you. Your items were not that difficult to replace, so while you did mind that you lost them... you weren't going to be heartbroken beacuse items are easy to come by.
Current MMORPGs are designed to keep you playing for hours on end. Therefore, they create these insanely long/boring quests for uber items that you would probably cry if you lost. This needs to go away.
If you make items less important, then you can have looting and more acceptable PvP. People still bitched in UO when they died, but it was because their pride was hurt... which is a GOOD thing. Get stronger, form a posse, or do whatever it takes to kill that person and get revenge and imagine how much fun it will be when you loot their stuff. This lends personality to PvP, which all MMORPGs currently lack.
Originally posted by harmonica This is why UO (REAL UO, before the original creators left) was king. In UO, there were no Uber-Carebare-Magic-Sword-of-Doom weapons that you had to spend 50 hours trying to get. There were about 3 levels of magic items and they were only mildly better than regular ones. If you had the BEST magic sword and you fought a guy with a regular sword, the guy with the regular sword could still beat you because UO pvp REQUIRED the person behind the computer to actually know how to win a fight with strategy and your items did not matter. If you make items less important, then you can have looting and more acceptable PvP.
Ok, I can see where you are coming from with taking the emphasis off of a player's items, and that would certainly make a PvP game a more appealing to me. However, I think there's a trade off by doing so. There's also a great deal of excitement in gaining a super cool item that makes your character more powerful. It's not just a nice reward for completing a quest, it's also a nice reward for killing a tough mob.
My first MMO was EQ and that game had some nice items. My second game was DAoC, which is also the only PvP game I have played so far, and I found the items in that game sorely lacking. It's one of the things that caused me to leave it and go back to EQ. So I guess it depends on which game you cut your teeth on. If it was a PvP game, you might find that environment more rewarding.
But EQ was based on the old pencil and paper Advanced D&D and I played that game as well. It was the same thing for me back then. I enjoyed getting nice items. But I would also add that I think there needs to be a limit put on how powerful items should be. I lost interest in EQ by about the time Shadows ofLuclin came out and the devs kept making items more and more powerful until it just got silly. It also ruined it for me because I had acquired some really nice stuff that eventually became outdated when an entire new line of items was added to the expansions.
EQ is a Level based game. Looting needs a skill based game. Level based games need armor/weapons to be their form of progression. Its their hook
Skill based or "Unlock" systems already naturally provide infinite character progression. developers can easily introduce new skills tot he game and every player can learn it.
In level based games, they are always increasing level caps and such. this nonsense isn't needed in skill based games
in a skill based game a sword is always just a sword. There are no levels attached. Thus, developers have no need to try to hide 'vertical progression' through items in a skill based game
Thus, rather then make you grind forn that new uber sword- they can make you grind for the "skill" to wield the uber sword if they wanted. Then they made the crafters grind for the ability to make the sword. When you lose it- then you must return to the crafter
This is why skill based games have some of the best crafting known to man. They always will. looting, durability penalties, go hand in hand with crafting. if I never lose my uber sword then I promise you Crafters I will -NEVER- need you more then once at best.
yes it is brutal to newbies. this is why EVE has insurance and safe zones to get newbs up to speed. im not against that. DF never said newbies wont be safe in their captials. they never said it. its in their FAQ
edit- when I get a chance ill try to dig up developer blogs where they are firmly against looting and penalties. yet they recognize the best player crafting systems and player run economies go hand-in-hand with looting and durability penalty. Go figure
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
Darkfall and PvP games in general are a niche market, that is just a truth that most all of us pvp vets have had to come to deal with over the years.
speak for yourself PVP games aren't niche. Unreal Tournament, Crysis, Quake Wars, and the list jsut goes on and on.
They are niche in MMO land- in a world dominated by dice rolls and noobs running out in the open getting spiked to death (see guild wars). On ventrillo its this simple:
call target
Hit TAB
Everyone spike the target
In FPS games player skill are involved. PVP is niche in MMO world and will always be niche until aim/dodge is integrated. that simple
PVP vets in FPS space we are not attracted to the thought of uber gear determining victory and dice rolls.
Darkfall, huxley, and the list just goes on and on for developers thats realizing this and integrating aim/dodge
Your wrong. The number of people that want nothing to do with pvp in a mmorpg is extremely high.
A lot PVP vets in FPS stuff dont want to do a "real" MMORPG pvp game because it involves effort and logistics aside from logging in and shooting people (which is not wrong, its just a different type of play style). They dont want to build up infrastruture, set up a supply chain, protect their assets for long periods of time. They just want shoot stuff. So they should stay in their FPS games. And this is not all FPS players, just most.
Huxley is not a PvP MMORPG and neither Guildwars.
Giving FPS mechanics will only attract certain FPS gamers to a true conquest style PvP MMORPG, its a different sort of game, and its for a very specific type of gamer. Its a niche market.
Thinking that adding aim or dodge is what attracted most of the old school people to darkfall when it was announced is pretty silly.
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
It is impossible to learn the techniques of the Power Gamer if you are a casual player. A Mob will be the same each week which allows casual gamers to learn the encounters.
A game like Darkfall will not be successful in the western world. It WON'T Happen. End of story. That is the plain and simple answer. According to NCSoft City of Heroes was their most successful MMO subscription based game in the Western Market. City of heroes peaked at around 180K subs. That means that L2 has never had more then 180K subs in the Western Market.
So once again I stand by my statement that a PVP game like Darkfall would completely be a niche product. It would be lucky to garner 100K subscriptions. So why would the big western MMO developers (SOE, Blizzard, Turbine, EA Mythic) waste their production budgets on such a niche product?
It will take a success on par with World of warcraft to change the minds of the developers. So a game would need to come out and shoot up to millions of subscriptions before we will see a change in the minds of the big corporations.
i've read all the FAQ's and browsed their website extensively i don't argue unless I know what I'm talking about The game will have those systems in place, but just because a guild owns the land you wish to quest in doesn't mean others won't be able to enter and kill you. Say you are casually enjoying questing, doing some fun FPS combat, and a rival guild comes to take over the lands and kill everyone. They assume you are part of that controlling guild, or just don't care, and slaughter you. How many players would stop and say "hey wait, he's just questing, let's leave him alone." The answer is like six. Six people. Or the guild denies you protection, kills you, and you're f-d either way. Then you can't complete your quest because the A-Hole guild won't let you on their lands. It's just like in EVE where uber corps disembowel anyone who enters their "protected" mining sites. To me, that is total crap. I'm all for awesome PVP and PVE and Guild vs. Guild wars and the likes, and even voluntary FFA PVP, but nothing in a game should be forced on a player. Maybe I want to play Darkfall for the awesome FPS combat and great quests. Can I turn on a "flag" so I am un-killable in PVP? No. The majority of players will not touch DF with a ten foot poll Could be a great game, if it comes out, and some people will love it. But don't expect a huge following is all I'm saying
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
It is impossible to learn the techniques of the Power Gamer if you are a casual player. A Mob will be the same each week which allows casual gamers to learn the encounters.
A game like Darkfall will not be successful in the western world. It WON'T Happen. End of story. That is the plain and simple answer. According to NCSoft City of Heroes was their most successful MMO subscription based game in the Western Market. City of heroes peaked at around 180K subs. That means that L2 has never had more then 180K subs in the Western Market.
So once again I stand by my statement that a PVP game like Darkfall would completely be a niche product. It would be lucky to garner 100K subscriptions. So why would the big western MMO developers (SOE, Blizzard, Turbine, EA Mythic) waste their production budgets on such a niche product?
It will take a success on par with World of warcraft to change the minds of the developers. So a game would need to come out and shoot up to millions of subscriptions before we will see a change in the minds of the big corporations.
Yet, UO always enjoyed more then 150k subs even pre-trammel. It's outlived many cookie cutters that has lived and died without a funeral. Theres people out there thats subbed to UO for 6 yrs+
Next, port the game to Asia. I have never ever shipped a game that hasnt hit multiple countries. However, you must understand the Asian market in order to succeed there. you cant just localize text. you must also pursue different payment options and consider cultural differences. Its in my blog I never said not port to Asia. In fact, I recommend porting open PVP games to Asia they discussed this at AGDC (microtransaction models and such).
People praise WoW but infact the more popular MMOs in Asia are microtransaction models like Habbo Hotel and Maple Story
Lastly, we have EVE in which is 200k+ subs. It is FFA PVP and you can be killed anywhere. Like Darkfall, eVE has guards in the fairly safe areas
I am disappointed to read so much lack of knowledge of Darkfall on these boards. People gloss over the fact that you can hire NPC gaurds (assuming DF comes out). If it doesnt, hell we still got UO I still logon every so often and the pre-trammel rule set isnt as bad as the whinners try to make it out to be (not targeted at this poster btw)
I'm making an MMO thats going to have open PvP, closed PvP, PvE encounters, instanced PvP, instanced PvE, RvR, FFA servers, RP servers, RP-PvP servers, RP-PvE servers, merc lvls, PvE lvls, PvP lvls, dwarfs, orcs, elves, demons, ghost, mounted combat, slow mounts, tall mounts, flying mounts, underwater mounts, NPC towns, Player driven towns, keeps, towers, outpost, mines, casters, archers, tanks, healers, aim based combat, turn based combat and fun fluff critters. The name of my game is Vaporware Online, I don't have any in game footage but I promise, Its coming soon.
I forgot, it will also have dragons, can't forget those.
Darkfall is vaporware. The End. I'm making an MMO thats going to have open PvP, closed PvP, PvE encounters, instanced PvP, instanced PvE, RvR, FFA servers, RP servers, RP-PvP servers, RP-PvE servers, merc lvls, PvE lvls, PvP lvls, dwarfs, orcs, elves, demons, ghost, mounted combat, slow mounts, tall mounts, flying mounts, underwater mounts, NPC towns, Player driven towns, keeps, towers, outpost, mines, casters, archers, tanks, healers, aim based combat, turn based combat and fun fluff critters. The name of my game is Vaporware Online, I don't have any in game footage but I promise, Its coming soon. I forgot, it will also have dragons, can't forget those.
Very well informed concise response there.
Why wouldn't a games developer try to go outside of the cookie cut box? Many players want this. It is not just a niche market either as there are so many types of game play that will cater to many different types of gamers. Rp's like myself will probably find this game a haven. PvP lovers will find this game like a drug. People who like crafting will actually be needed. Anyone who liked Oblivion I'm guessing will enjoy the title. People who have been craving a respite from gear-centric level based game play may find a home. Plus the dizzying amount of skills planned, the open game style, your ability to hopefully effect your environment, the HUGE map.
Is it too outside your narrow view to consider a company would want to give its players as much as possible, or are you just so used to the standard crap that has become modern MMO's?
ps. Look at the facts before you make such a belated overused claim such as:
"Darkfall is vaporware.
The End."
I could make an assumption that you probably didn't graduate high school and have a severe learning disability, yet i can't back it up with evidence so i wont assume as such.
DFO has been in production for over five years. I was actually part of the original concept community and then the game died. It has been picked up 3 times by other companies now? The last company started taking monthly fee's from people and screwing them over. The history of this game should be a warning for all to steer clear of it.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
lol darkfall biggest vaporware ever. It's like some kind of odd social experiment now. This thing has been in development since I started High School. I am now out out of College.
so let me get this straight according to your profile your are 46 and you only came out of high school 7 years ago ........................
Darkfall is vaporware. The End. I'm making an MMO thats going to have open PvP, closed PvP, PvE encounters, instanced PvP, instanced PvE, RvR, FFA servers, RP servers, RP-PvP servers, RP-PvE servers, merc lvls, PvE lvls, PvP lvls, dwarfs, orcs, elves, demons, ghost, mounted combat, slow mounts, tall mounts, flying mounts, underwater mounts, NPC towns, Player driven towns, keeps, towers, outpost, mines, casters, archers, tanks, healers, aim based combat, turn based combat and fun fluff critters. The name of my game is Vaporware Online, I don't have any in game footage but I promise, Its coming soon. I forgot, it will also have dragons, can't forget those.
Very well informed concise response there.
Why wouldn't a games developer try to go outside of the cookie cut box? Many players want this. It is not just a niche market either as there are so many types of game play that will cater to many different types of gamers. Rp's like myself will probably find this game a haven. PvP lovers will find this game like a drug. People who like crafting will actually be needed. Anyone who liked Oblivion I'm guessing will enjoy the title. People who have been craving a respite from gear-centric level based game play may find a home. Plus the dizzying amount of skills planned, the open game style, your ability to hopefully effect your environment, the HUGE map.
Is it too outside your narrow view to consider a company would want to give its players as much as possible, or are you just so used to the standard crap that has become modern MMO's?
ps. Look at the facts before you make such a belated overused claim such as:
I could make an assumption that you probably didn't graduate high school and have a severe learning disability, yet i can't back it up with evidence so i wont assume as such.
"Darkfall is vaporware.
The End."
I pity you. To have such high hopes on vapoware is.. chilling almost. Why wouldn't a game developer "go outside the box"? Its simple, risk VS. reward. It is far too risky to stray that far away from the "mmo mold". I'll tell you the shocking truth, you're niche, there is no "sizeable niche nation" of players chomping at the bit to play this vaporware.
Also, you missed my joke entirely, I can promise anything under the sun for an MMO but if I don't have much to show for it, after 5+ years of work, the warning lights should go off. I guess some have high hopes, or are too trusting. I have some water front housing for sale in Kansas if you're intrested, or maybe an emu farm.
this is a weird debate for me. I think people are getting hung up on DF the looting and open PVP
really all I need is a town to fight for. A cause. I want to see other full blooded warriors there to fight with me. people that dont want to fight it is fine with me they have their own spot really.
Too me risk vs reward is the fight over a city. That is huge. Armor and weapons- all i need is basic gear. gear can mean nothing like in an FPS and guild Wars im happy with that personally.
Want to see more player skill. Even battles? sure u can add them but I know from years and years of experience in FPS games when you have aim/dodge the veteran teams will win no matter what as long as its reasonable. 5 vs 20 is doable because a senseless zerg will die. Running out in the open is a death sentenance in FPS
Skill based system will get us player skill for starters. It doesnt have to be 100% aim/dodge but we need to be able to use terrain. Hiding and ducking for cover needs to count
I thought this topic was about creative innovative titles. why limit it to jsut Darkfall? What if we dont like DF? I want lots of choices. I am hoping that Huxley, spellborn (endgame PVP), and maybe Hellgate will have good PVP. had highest hopes for DF though for the skill based system tho but maybe Huxley will do something similar
btw I wrote a blog on Character Advancement Systems I prefer skill based systems like UO, Saga of Ryzom, EVE, etc have over cookie cutter Warrior/Mage/Priest (Class/Levels)
Player Skill - when I say this I am not necessarily asking for 100% dodge/aim. I think a 'skill based system' helps let player skill filter through.
Player Skill - games upcoming that will try to integrate this 'more' is Fury, Spellborn (aim/dodge), Huxley, and DF.
so i dont see why this discussion should be limited to DF and just open PVP/looting. Um, id much rather prefer no armor at all. I subbed to City Of Heroes for a long time for 'no armor' and nice player movement. Asheron Call 1 looked like maybe it integrated more player skill perhaps but city of heroes was nice inspite of numberous bugs and unfinished PVP content
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dn44ZVEHaA - City of heroes. good player movement, fun PVP. would be much better if we had towns to fight for!!!! (edit- sorry they did give us supergroup base raids that why I had subbed for so long but it was broken and buggy. just pure lagfestr last time i tried it, gave up. Plus Hero vs Villain sucked and only way to fix was go to FFA Area to make even teams)
give me an FFA PVP area where I can team up with others and let us wage war. What do I mean by 'FFA PVP area'? It can be as simple as an Arena where guilds can fight each other (yep City of Heroes has a few FFA Areas) or full blown like EVE low sec space
I wouldn't call EVE skill based. You can take two players, one from release and one from about 3 months ago, place them in the same ship and no matter what, the guy with the most training/skill points will win. EVE is intresting, i've never played anything like it realy, but all N all you just need time investment, like the level/gear based systems.
I wouldn't call EVE skill based. You can take two players, one from release and one from about 3 months ago, place them in the same ship and no matter what, the guy with the most training/skill points will win. EVE is intresting, i've never played anything like it realy, but all N all you just need time investment, like the level/gear based systems.
In my blog I defined 'skill based system' if you scroll down.
quick summary-
Skill Based system is a system where you level skills independantly. Ideally, a newbie has a shot at a vet. In EVE, newbies can jopin in fleet battles and 'tackle'. They are making a contribution to the war effort. a meaningful contribution. You can also help mine and carry around stuff. Also, you can salvage just as good as a 3 year vet
EVE has a lot of vertical progression via the ships. I wont speak on that nor the PVP because I've just filled the role of fleet pilot, crafter, and trader. But i do know newbie frigates can gang up on a veteran and take them down. sure it is not a fair 1v1 but frigates are faster then veterans ships and hard to hit (unless its a destroyer). might be other facts I am -not- a PVP vet in EVE atm. very complex.
edit - so compare anewbie in EVE to a newbie in World Of Warcraft. Level 30 is useless in an end game PVP fight hence they need artifical zones to split off people. In EVE, newbies can help. In many skill based games all through history we have seen players take down vets
There are not MANY, A lot, or any other term that portrays a large number of people waiting for a game like Darkfall. There is a small (very small compared to the gamer population as a whole) that is interested in this type of game. The problem with these types of games are they aren't really about skill. People that want a fair skill based PvP game will play FPS games like Counterstrike. MMO games will not work with this type of design. Because inherently someone is always going to be more powerful. Unless they make items worthless all together and then what is the point of dropping items? I mean who cares if I drop my sword if it was worthless to begin with? But if they make my sword a good weapon and important to the point that I wouldn't want to lose it, well then it creates a problem. Because eventually the gankers are going to have better equipment then the people they are ganking and no matter how skilled the ganked people are they will lose. Asheron's Call Darktide server was very similiar to this. You could dodge spells and arrows. Skill was involved to the point that a level 50ish could kill a level 80+ , but in that game equipment wasn't very important. You could kill just as well with one weapon as another and they were easily replaced. In the end most of the players who say they want a skill based mmo with full loot pvp are the people that couldn't cut it in FPS games and so they want the ability to kill people in a game where they are less likely to die. (because in a FPS even if you don't play a lot you can be pretty good, but in a MMO the amount of time you play makes you better then anyone else.)
And finally to answer the OP. A darkfall type game is destined to be small change. 50K subscribers maybe up to 90K range, but definitely a sub 100K subscriber game. There would be no reason to dump the type of money to make a big budget MMO into a game design that is a Niche of a Niche market.
Tell that to the Millions of players that have played Lineage and Lineage 2 over the years. Not the same type of game as far as mechanics go but it is in the same "Niche" market as Darkfall.
Bren
No where near the same type of game as Darkfall. Lineage 1 or 2 was a grinding asian game with reprecussions to deter from rampant ganking. It is also a game that pretty much failed in the Western market. AT least compared to it's success in the East.
No not that different in this respect at least. Darkfall uses an alignment system that is very similar to L2's Karma system to keep ganking in check. Do your homework. Oh and I played Lineage II for years on the NA servers and there was NEVER a shortage of players on any of the 12 open servers so to say it's a failure in the west is just not true. These were English speaking players from the US and Europe btw so don't come back with the standard, "They're all Chinese" argument either. There were Chinese players on the NA servers but the Western players far outnumbered them.
As for Darkfall not being a grinding game that remains to be seen. Grinding skills can be just as tedious as grinding levels if not done right. Also Darkfall promises to be a very political game as was L2. The clan level politics will be there as well as sieging for territory. Also they are both PvP centric games where PvP will shape the game world. There are many more comparisons but those are the main ones so I'll leave it at that. I think you'll find a lot of ex-L2 players moving to Darkfall as they are more similar then you seem to think they are.
Bren
L2 have many savezones DARKFALL none aligment system is completely different from karma system in l2, l2 system is to prefend open pvp a saveguard for all the carebears the aligment system in darkfall is just that you be attacked by guards but you can kill anybody everywhere you want even in your own town own clanmates its truely open pvp game L2 is not, also full loot when killed in darkfall L2 have not.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
btw they are planing a release or at least beta here very soon they hired a few more testers to get it polished for beta but when >< lol the time there taking = a good thing
All they have to show for it are some outdated looking alpha videos and crusty old screenshots.. The Age of Conan devs were even taking shots at it.. making fun of it.. when that starts happening you know theres something seriously wrong somewhere.
Please stop feeding this vaporware monster and let it die in peace already.
Comments
So I don't necessarily see anything wrong with PvP, but it can be a chaotic environment and I believe it is improved when there are certain safeguards built into such a game. I would add that PvP is the one aspect about Darkfall that doesn't appeal to me, but there are so many other interesting ideas about that game that I could overlook that and still try the game.
The better pvp games IMO are the ones that are less gear dependent for the reason you state.And i may have overstated how much i do not care about losing stuff. I care, and sometimes certain loses have been near heartbreaking in the stupidity of the way i lost it (usually getting totally ganked by a large force because i was being careless). Its the possibility of losing something that makes the pvp fun for me.
I would also agree, that some of their ideas for pve content being dynamic sounds very cool. The crafting sounds cool. There is a lot beyond PKing in DF that seems cool. Whether or not the game gets made or not is another story. It could suck as well.
But it doesnt change the point that there is a sizeable niche market out there that would enjoy a brutal conquest style pvp game.
lol darkfall
biggest vaporware ever. It's like some kind of odd social experiment now. This thing has been in development since I started High School. I am now out out of College.
This is why UO (REAL UO, before the original creators left) was king. In UO, there were no Uber-Carebare-Magic-Sword-of-Doom weapons that you had to spend 50 hours trying to get. There were about 3 levels of magic items and they were only mildly better than regular ones. If you had the BEST magic sword and you fought a guy with a regular sword, the guy with the regular sword could still beat you because UO pvp REQUIRED the person behind the computer to actually know how to win a fight with strategy and your items did not matter.
When you died in UO, the stuff you were carrying was lootable (although if you were an innocent and someone other than your guildmate looted you, they turned grey in color and people could attack them without penalty). However, the stuff you were carrying did not define you. Your items were not that difficult to replace, so while you did mind that you lost them... you weren't going to be heartbroken beacuse items are easy to come by.
Current MMORPGs are designed to keep you playing for hours on end. Therefore, they create these insanely long/boring quests for uber items that you would probably cry if you lost. This needs to go away.
If you make items less important, then you can have looting and more acceptable PvP. People still bitched in UO when they died, but it was because their pride was hurt... which is a GOOD thing. Get stronger, form a posse, or do whatever it takes to kill that person and get revenge and imagine how much fun it will be when you loot their stuff. This lends personality to PvP, which all MMORPGs currently lack.
speak for yourself PVP games aren't niche. Unreal Tournament, Crysis, Quake Wars, and the list jsut goes on and on.
They are niche in MMO land- in a world dominated by dice rolls and noobs running out in the open getting spiked to death (see guild wars). On ventrillo its this simple:
call target
Hit TAB
Everyone spike the target
In FPS games player skill are involved. PVP is niche in MMO world and will always be niche until aim/dodge is integrated. that simple
PVP vets in FPS space we are not attracted to the thought of uber gear determining victory and dice rolls.
Darkfall, huxley, and the list just goes on and on for developers thats realizing this and integrating aim/dodge
"NOW, we also know many of us in the MMO community would KILL to play a game like this"
Is incorrect. the actual amount of people waiting to play a game like this is actually pretty small. There are much more people waiting for a game like EQ and WoW than there are for playing a game like Darkfall. There is a good reason why little to no dev studios are willing to create such a game.
only a small amount of people want this kind of game because they never made one really sucessful that became famous, and other reason is that people like the simple that is right what the other kind of game brings
Ultima Online had many features similar to Darkfall. It was probably the most popular mmorpg of its kind , but Everquest had twice the amount of subscribers.Asherons call added a pvp server. it was the least populated server.
Thats why companies follow the Everquest model, because its simply a lot more popular, and thus has a bigger chance of becomming a success. So compared to the gamers looking for a traditional mmo in the style of everquest, there are not a lot of people waiting for a game like darkfall.
EQ was freakin 3D graphics. UO, was 2D graphics. do the math. EQ made history with their graphics innovations. Skydomes- that came from EQ.
Thats not saying anything. Everquest peaked in 2004 , a time when there were lots of better 3D graphics with a lot more competition.Ultima Online had little to no competition.
Besides, there are plenty of old looking MMO's that are still among the most popular MMORPG's in the world, such as Lineage (2D), Ragnarok Online, LoM, etc.
Many, many people here in western hemisphere started out in EQ you can checkout the mmorpg charts do whatever you like. I see nothing to discuss further on this matter. most of those titles you're listing are from Asia
Well many people also started in UO, so I don't really see your point.
This is why UO (REAL UO, before the original creators left) was king. In UO, there were no Uber-Carebare-Magic-Sword-of-Doom weapons that you had to spend 50 hours trying to get. There were about 3 levels of magic items and they were only mildly better than regular ones. If you had the BEST magic sword and you fought a guy with a regular sword, the guy with the regular sword could still beat you because UO pvp REQUIRED the person behind the computer to actually know how to win a fight with strategy and your items did not matter.
When you died in UO, the stuff you were carrying was lootable (although if you were an innocent and someone other than your guildmate looted you, they turned grey in color and people could attack them without penalty). However, the stuff you were carrying did not define you. Your items were not that difficult to replace, so while you did mind that you lost them... you weren't going to be heartbroken beacuse items are easy to come by.
Current MMORPGs are designed to keep you playing for hours on end. Therefore, they create these insanely long/boring quests for uber items that you would probably cry if you lost. This needs to go away.
If you make items less important, then you can have looting and more acceptable PvP. People still bitched in UO when they died, but it was because their pride was hurt... which is a GOOD thing. Get stronger, form a posse, or do whatever it takes to kill that person and get revenge and imagine how much fun it will be when you loot their stuff. This lends personality to PvP, which all MMORPGs currently lack.
old UO was a true masterpiece indeed
Ok, I can see where you are coming from with taking the emphasis off of a player's items, and that would certainly make a PvP game a more appealing to me. However, I think there's a trade off by doing so. There's also a great deal of excitement in gaining a super cool item that makes your character more powerful. It's not just a nice reward for completing a quest, it's also a nice reward for killing a tough mob.
My first MMO was EQ and that game had some nice items. My second game was DAoC, which is also the only PvP game I have played so far, and I found the items in that game sorely lacking. It's one of the things that caused me to leave it and go back to EQ. So I guess it depends on which game you cut your teeth on. If it was a PvP game, you might find that environment more rewarding.
But EQ was based on the old pencil and paper Advanced D&D and I played that game as well. It was the same thing for me back then. I enjoyed getting nice items. But I would also add that I think there needs to be a limit put on how powerful items should be. I lost interest in EQ by about the time Shadows of Luclin came out and the devs kept making items more and more powerful until it just got silly. It also ruined it for me because I had acquired some really nice stuff that eventually became outdated when an entire new line of items was added to the expansions.
EQ is a Level based game. Looting needs a skill based game. Level based games need armor/weapons to be their form of progression. Its their hook
Skill based or "Unlock" systems already naturally provide infinite character progression. developers can easily introduce new skills tot he game and every player can learn it.
In level based games, they are always increasing level caps and such. this nonsense isn't needed in skill based games
in a skill based game a sword is always just a sword. There are no levels attached. Thus, developers have no need to try to hide 'vertical progression' through items in a skill based game
Thus, rather then make you grind forn that new uber sword- they can make you grind for the "skill" to wield the uber sword if they wanted. Then they made the crafters grind for the ability to make the sword. When you lose it- then you must return to the crafter
This is why skill based games have some of the best crafting known to man. They always will. looting, durability penalties, go hand in hand with crafting. if I never lose my uber sword then I promise you Crafters I will -NEVER- need you more then once at best.
yes it is brutal to newbies. this is why EVE has insurance and safe zones to get newbs up to speed. im not against that. DF never said newbies wont be safe in their captials. they never said it. its in their FAQ
edit- when I get a chance ill try to dig up developer blogs where they are firmly against looting and penalties. yet they recognize the best player crafting systems and player run economies go hand-in-hand with looting and durability penalty. Go figure
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
speak for yourself PVP games aren't niche. Unreal Tournament, Crysis, Quake Wars, and the list jsut goes on and on.
They are niche in MMO land- in a world dominated by dice rolls and noobs running out in the open getting spiked to death (see guild wars). On ventrillo its this simple:
call target
Hit TAB
Everyone spike the target
In FPS games player skill are involved. PVP is niche in MMO world and will always be niche until aim/dodge is integrated. that simple
PVP vets in FPS space we are not attracted to the thought of uber gear determining victory and dice rolls.
Darkfall, huxley, and the list just goes on and on for developers thats realizing this and integrating aim/dodge
Your wrong. The number of people that want nothing to do with pvp in a mmorpg is extremely high.A lot PVP vets in FPS stuff dont want to do a "real" MMORPG pvp game because it involves effort and logistics aside from logging in and shooting people (which is not wrong, its just a different type of play style). They dont want to build up infrastruture, set up a supply chain, protect their assets for long periods of time. They just want shoot stuff. So they should stay in their FPS games. And this is not all FPS players, just most.
Huxley is not a PvP MMORPG and neither Guildwars.
Giving FPS mechanics will only attract certain FPS gamers to a true conquest style PvP MMORPG, its a different sort of game, and its for a very specific type of gamer. Its a niche market.
Thinking that adding aim or dodge is what attracted most of the old school people to darkfall when it was announced is pretty silly.
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
It is impossible to learn the techniques of the Power Gamer if you are a casual player. A Mob will be the same each week which allows casual gamers to learn the encounters.A game like Darkfall will not be successful in the western world. It WON'T Happen. End of story. That is the plain and simple answer. According to NCSoft City of Heroes was their most successful MMO subscription based game in the Western Market. City of heroes peaked at around 180K subs. That means that L2 has never had more then 180K subs in the Western Market.
So once again I stand by my statement that a PVP game like Darkfall would completely be a niche product. It would be lucky to garner 100K subscriptions. So why would the big western MMO developers (SOE, Blizzard, Turbine, EA Mythic) waste their production budgets on such a niche product?
It will take a success on par with World of warcraft to change the minds of the developers. So a game would need to come out and shoot up to millions of subscriptions before we will see a change in the minds of the big corporations.
War Beta Tester
Declaring war requires you give the other guild a certain amount of notice (over 24 hours) otherwise it is not an official war and your allignment will turn to evil from people you kill.
You seem to be under the impression that most people are evil, and in an environment with no rules you are right. We have no clue how people will react to this open PvP environment with all these different laws set in place. I think it is this uncertainty and ever evolving world that makes games like Darkfall so appealing to certain gamers.
I think once gamers start to experience these dynamics, mixed with a good gameplay experience they will start to change their idea of what a good MMORPG should be. It's not about killing 100 boars and saving up for that powerful sword or even about following a linear storyline with a few friends. It's about interacting and creating a world and a story all your own.
How can we even consider MMORPGs massive anymore when we're isolating ourselves from the rest of the world?
Oh this guy is offending me, I'll just put him on ignore.
Everyone keeps killstealing my mobs, I'll just hide in this instance.
We grind and we grind and we grind to collect the best armor and weapons and then what? We stand around town and show off how special we are. Then complain when the company ups the level cap and gives us more items to collect.
How about you give me something to fight for. Whether it is to rise in power, or cleanse the world of evil.
Open PvP is not necessary for a sandbox game but without it good and evil does not exist.
How can good and evil exist in a world where you don't have the choice to be good or evil?
You act like there has never been a game like this before. Asheron's Call Darktide server was exactly what people talk about when they speak of skill based full pvp open world games. The DT server was the least populated server and made a horrible impression on new players. The new players would get killed and camped constantly when they started up. They couldn't go to town for a long time or they risked getting killed. They couldn't go to popular hunting grounds or they would get killed.
Guess what the vast majority of the server was either under the "evil" Bloods or alligned with them because they were the "uber big guild". There were a few Anti-PK guilds but overall the server was run by PKs.
What you see as a fun environment, most see as a huge annoyance. You want a world where the powergamer is going to be king. There is no chance for casual players to compete in a world like DFO. It can't happen because there is no way for them to compete with people with lots of time to play. Just like it is impossible to compete in a FPS game against a professional gaming team who does it for a living.
okay anwser me this. when you fight a Boss mob in your favorite RPG what do you do? Do you just laydown and quit? Or do you learn the boss mob's movements? You just sdaid the pro teams in FPS games cant be beat. um, thats because you -quit-
but if you keep playing and learn their techniques just maybe you'll win? but you'll never know if you just give up. It's a test of morale and player skill
next AC1 DT was 100% opne pvp. Darkfall you can hire NPC guards to protect your domain. They have said this in their FAQ. How is this anything like AC1 Darktide? In DF players "own" land and can hire guards to protect any part of their domain. You can also order the guards to kill any "red" on sight.
It is impossible to learn the techniques of the Power Gamer if you are a casual player. A Mob will be the same each week which allows casual gamers to learn the encounters.A game like Darkfall will not be successful in the western world. It WON'T Happen. End of story. That is the plain and simple answer. According to NCSoft City of Heroes was their most successful MMO subscription based game in the Western Market. City of heroes peaked at around 180K subs. That means that L2 has never had more then 180K subs in the Western Market.
So once again I stand by my statement that a PVP game like Darkfall would completely be a niche product. It would be lucky to garner 100K subscriptions. So why would the big western MMO developers (SOE, Blizzard, Turbine, EA Mythic) waste their production budgets on such a niche product?
It will take a success on par with World of warcraft to change the minds of the developers. So a game would need to come out and shoot up to millions of subscriptions before we will see a change in the minds of the big corporations.
Yet, UO always enjoyed more then 150k subs even pre-trammel. It's outlived many cookie cutters that has lived and died without a funeral. Theres people out there thats subbed to UO for 6 yrs+
Next, port the game to Asia. I have never ever shipped a game that hasnt hit multiple countries. However, you must understand the Asian market in order to succeed there. you cant just localize text. you must also pursue different payment options and consider cultural differences. Its in my blog I never said not port to Asia. In fact, I recommend porting open PVP games to Asia they discussed this at AGDC (microtransaction models and such).
People praise WoW but infact the more popular MMOs in Asia are microtransaction models like Habbo Hotel and Maple Story
Lastly, we have EVE in which is 200k+ subs. It is FFA PVP and you can be killed anywhere. Like Darkfall, eVE has guards in the fairly safe areas
I am disappointed to read so much lack of knowledge of Darkfall on these boards. People gloss over the fact that you can hire NPC gaurds (assuming DF comes out). If it doesnt, hell we still got UO I still logon every so often and the pre-trammel rule set isnt as bad as the whinners try to make it out to be (not targeted at this poster btw)
Darkfall is vaporware.
The End.
I'm making an MMO thats going to have open PvP, closed PvP, PvE encounters, instanced PvP, instanced PvE, RvR, FFA servers, RP servers, RP-PvP servers, RP-PvE servers, merc lvls, PvE lvls, PvP lvls, dwarfs, orcs, elves, demons, ghost, mounted combat, slow mounts, tall mounts, flying mounts, underwater mounts, NPC towns, Player driven towns, keeps, towers, outpost, mines, casters, archers, tanks, healers, aim based combat, turn based combat and fun fluff critters. The name of my game is Vaporware Online, I don't have any in game footage but I promise, Its coming soon.
I forgot, it will also have dragons, can't forget those.
Why wouldn't a games developer try to go outside of the cookie cut box? Many players want this. It is not just a niche market either as there are so many types of game play that will cater to many different types of gamers. Rp's like myself will probably find this game a haven. PvP lovers will find this game like a drug. People who like crafting will actually be needed. Anyone who liked Oblivion I'm guessing will enjoy the title. People who have been craving a respite from gear-centric level based game play may find a home. Plus the dizzying amount of skills planned, the open game style, your ability to hopefully effect your environment, the HUGE map.
Is it too outside your narrow view to consider a company would want to give its players as much as possible, or are you just so used to the standard crap that has become modern MMO's?
ps. Look at the facts before you make such a belated overused claim such as:
"Darkfall is vaporware.
The End."
I could make an assumption that you probably didn't graduate high school and have a severe learning disability, yet i can't back it up with evidence so i wont assume as such.
Currently playing: Planetside, Americas Army.
Praying to Zeus for: Darkfall.
DFO has been in production for over five years. I was actually part of the original concept community and then the game died. It has been picked up 3 times by other companies now? The last company started taking monthly fee's from people and screwing them over. The history of this game should be a warning for all to steer clear of it.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
so let me get this straight according to your profile your are 46 and you only came out of high school 7 years ago ........................
Why wouldn't a games developer try to go outside of the cookie cut box? Many players want this. It is not just a niche market either as there are so many types of game play that will cater to many different types of gamers. Rp's like myself will probably find this game a haven. PvP lovers will find this game like a drug. People who like crafting will actually be needed. Anyone who liked Oblivion I'm guessing will enjoy the title. People who have been craving a respite from gear-centric level based game play may find a home. Plus the dizzying amount of skills planned, the open game style, your ability to hopefully effect your environment, the HUGE map.
Is it too outside your narrow view to consider a company would want to give its players as much as possible, or are you just so used to the standard crap that has become modern MMO's?
ps. Look at the facts before you make such a belated overused claim such as:
I could make an assumption that you probably didn't graduate high school and have a severe learning disability, yet i can't back it up with evidence so i wont assume as such.
"Darkfall is vaporware.
The End."
I pity you. To have such high hopes on vapoware is.. chilling almost. Why wouldn't a game developer "go outside the box"? Its simple, risk VS. reward. It is far too risky to stray that far away from the "mmo mold". I'll tell you the shocking truth, you're niche, there is no "sizeable niche nation" of players chomping at the bit to play this vaporware.Also, you missed my joke entirely, I can promise anything under the sun for an MMO but if I don't have much to show for it, after 5+ years of work, the warning lights should go off. I guess some have high hopes, or are too trusting. I have some water front housing for sale in Kansas if you're intrested, or maybe an emu farm.
Who puts these kids on the forum?
this is a weird debate for me. I think people are getting hung up on DF the looting and open PVP
really all I need is a town to fight for. A cause. I want to see other full blooded warriors there to fight with me. people that dont want to fight it is fine with me they have their own spot really.
Too me risk vs reward is the fight over a city. That is huge. Armor and weapons- all i need is basic gear. gear can mean nothing like in an FPS and guild Wars im happy with that personally.
Want to see more player skill. Even battles? sure u can add them but I know from years and years of experience in FPS games when you have aim/dodge the veteran teams will win no matter what as long as its reasonable. 5 vs 20 is doable because a senseless zerg will die. Running out in the open is a death sentenance in FPS
Skill based system will get us player skill for starters. It doesnt have to be 100% aim/dodge but we need to be able to use terrain. Hiding and ducking for cover needs to count
I thought this topic was about creative innovative titles. why limit it to jsut Darkfall? What if we dont like DF? I want lots of choices. I am hoping that Huxley, spellborn (endgame PVP), and maybe Hellgate will have good PVP. had highest hopes for DF though for the skill based system tho but maybe Huxley will do something similar
btw I wrote a blog on Character Advancement Systems I prefer skill based systems like UO, Saga of Ryzom, EVE, etc have over cookie cutter Warrior/Mage/Priest (Class/Levels)
linky - http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/vajuras/092007/466_Treatise-on-Character-Advancement-Systems (yep self plug but kept seeing people confuse levels with skill based systems)
Player Skill - when I say this I am not necessarily asking for 100% dodge/aim. I think a 'skill based system' helps let player skill filter through.
Player Skill - games upcoming that will try to integrate this 'more' is Fury, Spellborn (aim/dodge), Huxley, and DF.
so i dont see why this discussion should be limited to DF and just open PVP/looting. Um, id much rather prefer no armor at all. I subbed to City Of Heroes for a long time for 'no armor' and nice player movement. Asheron Call 1 looked like maybe it integrated more player skill perhaps but city of heroes was nice inspite of numberous bugs and unfinished PVP content
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dn44ZVEHaA - City of heroes. good player movement, fun PVP. would be much better if we had towns to fight for!!!!
(edit- sorry they did give us supergroup base raids that why I had subbed for so long but it was broken and buggy. just pure lagfestr last time i tried it, gave up. Plus Hero vs Villain sucked and only way to fix was go to FFA Area to make even teams)
give me an FFA PVP area where I can team up with others and let us wage war. What do I mean by 'FFA PVP area'? It can be as simple as an Arena where guilds can fight each other (yep City of Heroes has a few FFA Areas) or full blown like EVE low sec space
I wouldn't call EVE skill based. You can take two players, one from release and one from about 3 months ago, place them in the same ship and no matter what, the guy with the most training/skill points will win. EVE is intresting, i've never played anything like it realy, but all N all you just need time investment, like the level/gear based systems.
In my blog I defined 'skill based system' if you scroll down.
quick summary-
Skill Based system is a system where you level skills independantly. Ideally, a newbie has a shot at a vet. In EVE, newbies can jopin in fleet battles and 'tackle'. They are making a contribution to the war effort. a meaningful contribution. You can also help mine and carry around stuff. Also, you can salvage just as good as a 3 year vet
EVE has a lot of vertical progression via the ships. I wont speak on that nor the PVP because I've just filled the role of fleet pilot, crafter, and trader. But i do know newbie frigates can gang up on a veteran and take them down. sure it is not a fair 1v1 but frigates are faster then veterans ships and hard to hit (unless its a destroyer). might be other facts I am -not- a PVP vet in EVE atm. very complex.
edit - so compare anewbie in EVE to a newbie in World Of Warcraft. Level 30 is useless in an end game PVP fight hence they need artifical zones to split off people. In EVE, newbies can help. In many skill based games all through history we have seen players take down vets
Bren
No where near the same type of game as Darkfall. Lineage 1 or 2 was a grinding asian game with reprecussions to deter from rampant ganking. It is also a game that pretty much failed in the Western market. AT least compared to it's success in the East.
No not that different in this respect at least. Darkfall uses an alignment system that is very similar to L2's Karma system to keep ganking in check. Do your homework.As for Darkfall not being a grinding game that remains to be seen. Grinding skills can be just as tedious as grinding levels if not done right. Also Darkfall promises to be a very political game as was L2. The clan level politics will be there as well as sieging for territory. Also they are both PvP centric games where PvP will shape the game world. There are many more comparisons but those are the main ones so I'll leave it at that. I think you'll find a lot of ex-L2 players moving to Darkfall as they are more similar then you seem to think they are.
Bren
L2 have many savezones DARKFALL none aligment system is completely different from karma system in l2, l2 system is to prefend open pvp a saveguard for all the carebears the aligment system in darkfall is just that you be attacked by guards but you can kill anybody everywhere you want even in your own town own clanmates its truely open pvp game L2 is not, also full loot when killed in darkfall L2 have not.Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
btw they are planing a release or at least beta here very soon they hired a few more testers to get it polished for beta but when >< lol the time there taking = a good thing
Darkfall is 8 year old shit vaporware.
All they have to show for it are some outdated looking alpha videos and crusty old screenshots.. The Age of Conan devs were even taking shots at it.. making fun of it.. when that starts happening you know theres something seriously wrong somewhere.
Please stop feeding this vaporware monster and let it die in peace already.