I never developed any hatred toward any particular gameplay feature, but if I really have to pick, I'll say Open PvP. I don't care if it's "realistic", but having Open PvP just means that the game will be filled with griefers. It might add tension, but the amount of jerks it will spawn will really annoy me. Don't get me wrong, I like Pvp. But I like it to be in a controlled environment(PvP-areas, Arenas, etc)
Note: let's count how many posts it will be before someone calls me a carebear
I agree, I like PvP as well but only if I am guaranteed to win every single time. Nothing annoys me more than dying because of another player. I mean, its not like I'm carebears, I just don't do well with losing even once. Its not very realistic if I die, even one time.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Are skills just another "Level" system ..using a different name? I say this not in sarcastic retort, but as an honest question. If skill based system is significantly different, explain. I too would be happy to get away from 'level' based games, and if skill system games are truely different, then its something I will look for in future MMORPGs
Id probably agree with everything mentioned here. These features arent neccessarily bad, since some players prefer them, but when theyre all thats out there, then we have a problem.
1) Class/level system. This is one of my most hated, especially since its in almost every MMO. Its definately NOT the best system, its NOT the only viable system, its NOT the most realistic system, and its NOT the most RPG appropriate system. I dont know if there are many PnP vets on here, but the old West End Games version of Star Wars was a great PnP games largely because it was a skill based game. No classes, no levels, just skills. You could raise ANY skills you want by spending "character points", which were basically xp. It was a very fluid system with lots of freedom. You really could make what ever you wanted. Theres honestly NO reason why a system like this couldnt work in an MMO, except that developers are too lazy.
2) Boring combat. Probably my single, most hated feature, and the one that leads to boredom the quickest. Slow paced, auto attack style, let-my-character-do-all-the-work combat. You know, you can have the rpg feel, with character stats and abilities, and still require some player skill and innvolvement. Combat doesnt have to be so detached and basic. Once youve learned how to play your character youre pretty much done. Thats generally when I get bored or quit. I know that I have "the formula" down, so its all just dice rolls and auto attacks from then on. In a true, massive, instance free MMO, Im not sure what they can do with current technology, but they need some more engaging than the current system.
3) Static Worlds. Lame. We want to see living, breathing, evolving worlds. Not static, stagnant worlds where nothing ever changes until the expansion rolls out. Epic, linear questlines are for single player games, lets stop trying to pretend like they work in MMOs.
I'll preface this by saying that while I think that classes and levels are limiting, they make for interesting group and raid dynamics, something which I think is important. Perhaps exploring roles, rather than classes would be better. Anyway, onto shit that I really hate.
1.) TASKS! By this, I don't mean quests Everquest style, which were believable things that NPCs would make you do, and would seem reasonable and realistic. There is a difference between tasks and quests. Tasks have their place, for example, low level characters could perform vermin control tasks, giving body parts of vermin to taskmasters for a small reward. Not bad, nothing spectacular, though. Quests though, are very different. In most MMOs, there are only two quests, get to the end level, and get phat lewt. Now, we need to implement more quests, things that players have to actually work to complete. How do we do this? Undefine it... just have NPCs or even PCs ask for you to do shit, no more of these fucking question marks above their heads, no more quest journals, the player can record progress themselves if they want to. Non repeatable quests, similar to the main storyline of games such as Icewind Dale or Planescape: Torment would go a long way to make life interesting. Yes, a lot of developer work for few players, but oh so worth it for the development of the game.
2.) INSTANCES! Fuck that, just make the best and most dedicated player win the drops. This is a competition, after all, not a cakewalk.
3.) THE HERO BULLSHIT! Like in Everquest II, the level 35^^^ Heroic guard at the beginning of the game, the one that could kill me in one hit with ease calls me a hero and asks me to save him from a goblin invasion. When I start, I'm shit, so I want to be treated as such, some characters should taunt me, others should tell me to, well, fuck off. That way, when I get badass, it's a lot more involving.
7.) Mobs dropping uber loot. Mobs should drop what they have. A skeleton should drop bones, all of the bones. Rats should drop rat flesh, rat bones, rat fur, rat head and a rat tail, if you can skin it properly. So forth, so on.
8.) Linear progression... Oh, I'm done with this area now, so I can move on? That's why I'm paying $15 a month for an online game...
#1 Load Screens. I understand they are necessary sometimes, but keep them to a minimum. One of the reasons I didn't like LOTRO was that there were too many load screens. I once had to go thru a load screen to go inside a building, then I had to go thru another load screen to go to the second floor and then had to go thru yet another load screen to go to a different room on that floor. It was only beta, but c'mon!!!!
#2 Ganking in town and killing of quest NPC's. PvP combat in major cities should be turned off so I can go about my business in peace if I so choose, PvP server or not. If someone engages an NPC, then their PvP flag should be set and anyone can attack them, but if they do then they are in PvP as well so you can try to protect your own NPC's if you want but you can also choose to ignore it. Major cities are too important for quests, buying/selling of pots, equipment, trading and so forth to have to put up with idiots who are just there to grief.
Are skills just another "Level" system ..using a different name? I say this not in sarcastic retort, but as an honest question. If skill based system is significantly different, explain. I too would be happy to get away from 'level' based games, and if skill system games are truely different, then its something I will look for in future MMORPGs Torrential
No, skills are not a level system at all. Skill based systems generally don't go hand in hand with any type of level system unless the level system is something very simple like having X amount of skills equals level Y. This is what Anarchy Online does.
PreCU Star Wars Galaxies didn't even have levels beyond transparent tags which the server used to determine how difficult a particular mob would be for you. Here's a link to a preCU SWG Character Builder. SWG featured many, many different types of XP which were used to advance your character in different skills. For instance, you'd need to kill stuff with a carbine to earn carbine XP which in turn would be used earn carbine skill boxes. You also had rifle XP, pistol XP, one-handed melee XP, polearms XP, investigation XP for bounty hunting, et cetera.
EVE also uses a skill based system but instead of relying on XP for advancement the game relies on time passage. So a simple skill might take just an hour to learn, but the next would be five hours, then 25 hours, 125 hours, and so on and so forth. EVE doesn't use any XP at all. EVE also has no limit to how many skills one can be trained in. As long as you have the time you can keep on earning skills forever and ever.
Now, as much as I love skill systems there is one thing I hate and preCU SWG is guilty of it. I hate it when "roles" are turned into separate skills/professions. What I mean by this are basically the professions smuggler and bounty hunter. Everything within the professions was fine skill wise but I don't think the professions should have ever been included in the first place. I would have preferred if it bounty hunting and smuggling were game mechanics, minigames unto themselves, that anyone with any skills could participate in. Obviously certain skills would lend themselves to being proficient in either category but to say bounty hunters must have skills X, Y, and Z or smugglers must have skills A, B, and C is just silly to me. I don't like putting the role of a player before the action is actually performed.
So it shouldn't be "I'm a bounty hunter therefore I bounty hunt." It should be, "I choose to bounty hunt with my skills and am therefore a bounty hunter." The action of doing something should define your character, not a preset series of skills or a class.
We always discuss what we like and what we want but do we absolutely abhor? I'm talking mechanics which are so bad that if you just hear a game will feature them it instantly turns you off and no matter how good the reviews you will forever rebuff the game. I'll get started with a few:
Character Levels Classes Grinding XP Quests (not all, just the lame kill X snarfles, retrieve the zipzup from some NPC, a circuit of waypoints, et cetera). Instances Mobs dropping uber loot items instead of components for crafters to use Special attacks which are innate even though they obviously shouldn't be (like having a grenade ability where you have a magical unlimited suppy of grenades instead of having to purchase them and keep a stockpile in your inventory).
All of the above drive me nuts. Levels and classes are probably the only two systems which will make reject a game outright without any future consideration but the others usually suck because there is little to no innovation to them. And instancing just flat out defeats the entire purpose of an MMO to begin with (persistant world with unlimited community interaction).
didnt read the whole thread yet but yep these are the killers for me too. It has gotten so bad when i hear an MMO has clases / levels its a quick turn off. really I like PVE but i want self diurected PVE like in EVE or Starport.
now there are thing that might make me overcome my hate like if they promise something new like aim/dodge but if im not turned on immediately i'll just go back to playing my favorite FPS.
a friend just told me about Puzzle pirates its gotten this bad I'm thinking bout checking this out because it has risk vs reward and a focus on player skill lol.
no classes and no dice rolls and no computer deciding if i won is a good trait I want to look for. seriously im going to try puzzle pirates wish me look haha (also liked EVE just taking a small break to play other stuff so its not all bad). EVE does a good job of pretty much nullifying that list. saga of ryzom looks good too me these days too thinking of trying that one day if time is on my side
Big numbers. No, wait - BIGGER numbers! No, wait again.... Really freakin' HUGE numbers!
What in the crap is going on? I started out with D&D, where a Strength of 18 was awesome. That was the biggest, burliest fighter in the world. Hell, even Zeus only had a 25 Strength. You could add a few points here and there with some really impressive magic items, but most of your stats were in the 3-18 range.
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that using larger numbers would be more impressive. You weren't stuck with a Strength of only 18 - now you could have a Strength of 500, and do thousands of points of damage with a single attack! 500 is so much better than 18, right?
What that's led to is the petty itemization, a ridiculous variety of gear with trivial differences, and a lot of silly equipment-shuffling: Boots with 350 armor and +37 Str look worse than boots with 360 armor and +39 Str, but if you combine them with the special armbands you get another +6 Str, though you'll have to give up your old armbands with 25 more armor. After making sure the armor on your left middle finger properly complements the ring you wear on your big toe, without offending the delicate sensibilities of your right earring, which was chosen because it synergizes with your matching nipple rings, you realize you've managed to increase your damage output by a whopping 2%. Hooray?
It's not a deal-breaker, since most MMOs are doing it, but it's tedious and boring. Give me my Platemail +2 and let me go kill stuff.
While the OP has a strange selection of things he despises, its a good topic. Here comes my list:
1. any form of Corpse Run
2. XP loss from death - death IS the penality
3. repair cost from usage; its ok to have repair at death (to a degree) but why penalize ppl for PLAYING the game as its supposed??
4. Lack of diversity in races and classes
5. lack of diversity in appearance
6. too cartoony/simplified character models
7. too narrow concept of things to do (like in WOW or LOTRO, it just bores me too fast)
8. Lag and crashe
9. Forced PVP
10. too long ways to the fun, need for too much out-of-game preparations to get things done, non-self explanatory games
11. too cheap loot (usually this means the game is more crafter friendly, because crafters want ppl NOT to have cool loot so they are forced to buy their crafted products) as 100% adventurer and non-crafter I hate that. I want cool loot for my adventures. If you want to craft, seek a JOB. PERIOD!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Mobs that stand around doing nothing except provide filler. There's no purpose to them, they spawn, they stand around then they die.
I'd rather see a group of mobs fighting each other, where I can participate if I want to. Mobs that function together to build that item I'm suppose to stop them from building or to help them complete. I'd like to see a dynamic environment that mobs react to. Something that if I, as a player, ignore, there are consequences.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
I like classes, but some form of advancement other than leveling would be nice. I also think instances are a VERY important component of any MMO, but only in moderation (boss mobs, for example). There should always be plenty of options for non-instanced play.
Things I hate:
So-called skill-based advancement. Won't even look at a game that has it.
Bad writing in NPC dialog and quests
Unimaginative quests. I would rather grind on my own than run fed-ex quests or kill 10 of anything
Overblown crafting systems. Collect and combine is all I care to do, thanks.
Free-for-all PvP. I've hated it ever since UO, and I will never change my mind.
Lack of reasons to group (such as increased XP, increased loot, etc.)
Inadequate LFG interface
Endgame of any kind. The fun should start when the character is born. If there is a "max level," it should be time to retire the character, maybe after one big final quest. Of course, non-level-based advancement fixes this.
Inadequate character options within a class system.
Lack of in-game maps
Rare drops and/or rare spawns required for quests (this is my single biggest peeve)
Overly linear quest progression, especially if it's based on character level
AUTO-ATTACK makes me want to vomit
Inability to jump, and also lack of flight or other travel abilities (at appropriate stages of advancement)
Click-to-move with no option to use WASD
Bad camera controls
"Must-have" equipment that is the "best" for your class, level, job, or whatever
Auction systems that allow players to create artificial inflation on even the most common items (there should be a max price)
Only one character per account. Sorry, I'm an altaholic, and I need my toon slots.
Allowing people to use dial-up. Welcome to the 21st century, y'all.
P.S. Skill systems are still level-based, including old SWG. If you don't understand this, you don't understand math or game design.
1. Supposed Sandbox games. I don't want a world where I have to work. It is a game I want it to be fun. I don't want to have to work hard to have fun. I work hard at my job to make money.
2. Skill Based systems. The absolute most over rated system ever. Skill based MMOs just aren't a very good idea. They work well in a small scale where the game is population balanced. i.e. FPSers like counterstrike, UT, Battlefield, etc. These games are skill based and you are always going to have pretty even teams facing each other, at least in population. Skill based is crap in huge battles. You aren't going to be able to duck, dodge, and aim when you and 19 of you friends are fighting 100 other players. In a level/gear based system you and your 19 friends would have a chance to defeat 100 other players, especially if your gear is better and you have better organization. But in a skill based system your only advantage just went out the window. You can't physically dodge 5+ people at a time.
3. Full PVP with no "real" repercussions. A full PvP game with full loot should have a game mechanic that is realistic then. First of all my loot better not matter, other then money. Secondly their better be some form of "uber" law enforcement that prevents "PvPers" from even entering towns. The PVPers should be KOS by all respectful towns and any town that will do business with them should be a nasty crappy place. Think of the Caribbean in the age of hte Pirates. All of the nice towns with great stuff would kill Pirates on site. You needed a huge force to overtake a town due to the "NPC" army that protected it. Without that mechanic then Full PVP with Loot just turns into a gankers paradise, which is the most assanine game mechanic ever.
4. Forced Raid Progression. You should have alternative progression paths. For intance I should have the choice to do a raid with my guild in order to accomplish something, or a long solo quest to get an equivalent reward, or crafting. There shouldn't be any of this only 1 method to get what ever the best stuff in the game is.
5. Raid number caps. All Raids should be like Dark Age of Camelot. Better skill then take less people and get a better chance at good treasure, Less skill or just want to help out others well then take a huge zerg of 100+ to complete the content. Why force us to do "raid content" in a manner that only favors such a few number of players. The "power gamers" are already getting rewarded by the fact that they can complete the content with less players.
6. FFA PVP. Give me RvR instead. I want to have a "realm/faction/race" to side with. Don't force me to be in a guild in order to have allies to play with. Make it Realm Vs Realm so I have something to have pride in defending. RvR in my opinion creates some of the best communities in any game. Look at DAoC back when it came out. It had an awesome community with lots of pride in each realm. Then people figured out that if they played 8 man style they could earn better Realm Points. There went the community and the game became a cess pool on most servers. 8 man groups refusing to help their realm out. 8 man groups working on vent with other 8 man groups from different realms to farm Realm points.
7. No direction given by the game. It doesn't have to be like LOTRO with extreme direction and it doesn't have to be zone based progression, but I want to feel like I am important to the world. I want the same single player RPG feeling but in an environment where I can play with my friends. Don't just drop me in a world and say "Ok have fun". That kind of goes back to the sandbox issue. I don't want to work at the fun. I want the game ot just be fun.
What i hate most isn't even on your list. I have to go with MMORPG's being turned into MSORPG's(massive single-player online role play games). There just big virtual worlds where everyone runs around killing stuff and theres a chat box on the bottom. 90% of new MMO's seem to be repeating this cycle.
#1 Thing I dislike in MMORPGs, and nothing new, is the utter lack of creativity in quest design, they're virtually all the dreaded kill "x" number of creature or gather X no. of items variations with different monsters and different scenery. I know there are a few different quests here and there, but they are very, very few. Like in WoW, one of the early Outland quests is to go on a flying mount and bomb monsters below...a nice change but essentially kill X no of creatures. Just wish they'd be more creative and more dynamic with quests...we shouldn't be killing X number of creatures or gather X no of components all day from lvl 1 to max level, and the very least you'd expect very different quests as you near max level, more room for creativity and innovation please, there has to be other types of interesting quests out there.
1) Quests for the sake of having quests. MMO quests are horrible. borring.. repetitive.. If you can't come up with interesting quests.. don't bother putting any in the game. I don't want to go pick apples so granny can make a pie. I don't want to go save a village.. only to find that there's 85 people sitting there waiting this "great peril" to show up, so every mob in the group can be killed in 3 seconds.
2) Camping for spawns. I play games to have fun, sitting there staring at my screen for 4 hours waiting for a mob to appear isn't fun. And then when it does spawn it becomes a "who clicks first" competition between the 20 people sitting there.
3) Lack of instances ( see #2 ). It's becoming more and more obvious that games without instances simply aren't worth playing.
4) Static gear drops. I don't want to kill a boss just to see it drop the exact same thing it dropped the last 25 times.
5) Game designers wasting time working on "solo content." Screw solo content, MMOs are meant to be played with other people.
6) Level based game play, it's time skill based became the norm.
Thanks for starting and thanks for all good adititons that we have seen on the course of the same As most of my unfavorite aspects of MMOs have already been posted I think I´ll stick with my main...
My No. 1 aspect of MMOs that I came to hate, specially on new MMOs, is the lack of socialization, And I must explain that. First of all, it is very interesting that most of the aspects that were noted on this thread actually don´t play part on any "new" MMO, actually we are seeing more and more "rollovers", like if they have found the formula.
I must say, they did, with WoW they finally found a formula that kids can enjoy and play for hours non-stop, and have their parents pay for it, plus all average "crap-eating" consumers and the poor warcraft fans ( I add myself on the last ).
But all that actually got the devs to a dangererous place, this is a MSORPG formula, that standing for MASSIVE SINGLE-PLAYER RPG, all you do is for yourself, and there are almost no reasons, until the end-game, where you MUST do the end-game raid instances 100k times before getting your "phat-lewt"...
Devs should look to this and get scared, or at least read the genre name mMo, it´s an Multiplayer game, so it MUST be meant for Multiplayer, what makes my blood boil is that games are getting more and more single-player centred, not only on quests, but it goes on to actual game play, you don´t need anyone unless youre on a "party" in-game or running a raid/instances.
I remember seeing some nice things like on Anarchy Online, where you could "over-equip", or, use a weapon that you didn´t have, normally enough skill to use it, so if you get the right buffs ( from other Professions ) you could need it, and with that on track, this feature became a market and you could "sell-buffs" for more that just, killing things, even on crafting AO was so atached between peolple, you could never really be alone, and that is, imo, the main basis for all MMO, which we are loosing, fast...
Sorry for citating WoW, but its not just that it´s a bad game, it set a standard that it imo is very very wrong, and I am indeed very sorry for that...
I hear what you're saying about MMOs becoming single player events. I don't play SWG anymore but I do follow the forums from time to time. At the release of the NGE all of the PvE content was completely soloable. There wasn't a single exception to this. Even the DWB could be soloed with ease.
A month or two ago they cranked up the PvE difficulty across the board and what was the result? The forums exploded with threads lamenting about how the game is now impossible to play and they can't do anything by themselves. I never found it if they abandoned the rise in difficulty but I'm sure they instantly caved to public demand.
Enemies not understanding what I'm saying. You can make sure the opposing faction /enemy can't receive /tells or have access to the same chat channels but it absolutely annoys the snot out of me that I can't really interact with an enemy outside of smacking him with a weapon. If someone is willing to "beg" for his / her life I want to hear it..I might even be willing to grant his request but damnit give me the option to here his plea of mercy (DAoC / WoW you can't understand the other side, UO / Shadowbane you can certainly speak with the enemy and I like it better).
instead of specific classes have skills and have enough so that its very difficult to master all of them in a month
if you want to urge people in certain directions then have them pick a catagory like warrior or rogue ect and adjust the skills costs
THE WORLDS! the economy is allways broken because its based on a combat footing and is NATIONALIZED this means that only a few elite crafters are able to get rich
the world should be an IDEALIZED REALITY where players have normal lives for the most part they garden,fish,bake bread, gather wood for the winter along with protecting their settlement from attacks,building fortifications, gathering supplies to besiege a rival kingdom.
here is an example water/ crossing a derert,,, If water use is trivial then you can simply travel the shortest route accross no need for side trips to water holes,, no need to have a druid/ranger/mage to aquire water on your trip.
there are more to chalange players than just varying levels of rats to kill
Im looking for a mature game that doesnt place 100% of its focus on combat and have crafting and homes as an afterthought.
MOBS WITH BRAINS! it would be nice to see quests and mobs that were better than the cookie cutter crap they have been using for the last ten years.
and it would be really nice if the quests get better the higher you go not remain the same kill X mobs or fetch x widgets!
as far as PVP goes the best games for me are the ones where I choose the amount of involvement and risk im willing to assume without crippling me or punishing me for not participating in PVP EVE for instance has no indipendant class so PVPers are allways blowing up your multi million doller haulers or miners just so they can proove how manly they are
WORLD IDEA
I would love to see a game world where you basicly appear on a new planet with a small kit and know nothing about it till you discover it and this planet has seed communities all over I prefer a hex type pattern where each community has its central hex and 1-2 rings of hexes around it as does every other outside these 2 rings are the wilds. players work together building their comunity fortifications, public works projects, town government, even building codes...
resources are localized to promote trade economy different areas would have different specialties.
I would prefer for merchants to only carry basic gear/supplies and for players to supply the rest to the merchants stock in a hopper or bin fassion
alot of excelent gameplay comes out of the everyday strugles much more justification for questing and foraging
several crafts exist only for the preperation of food like pottery or smokhouses baskets for storage
a starter player entering the world could allways get a meal by gathering firewood or maby fishing ect
make the world feel like its alive and actually exists for a reason other than just a arena for infinite mob generators
try to anticipate player freedoms like housing I prefer an instance plot of land where i enter a fort or ally and I enter my land area where I can build what ever I want if I want a burrow or a glass house or a stainless steel tower (joking of course)
storage storage and more storage from pockets to books to saddle bags
real responsive pets that you feed and train
weather climate fighting off a blizzard or plague can be just as adventourous as any dragon or 50 level rat!
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
Quests that require a lot of mindless trips back and forth between NPCs. Quests that involve killing X amounts of a specific mob, turn in and then it becomes evident that there's a second/third part etc. asking for the exact same thing that you just did, but only slightly higher level this time...I usually end up skipping those quests and do something completely different instead. If the quest involves BOTH "back and forth" AND "kill X amounts", I'm pretty much out - I just can't take it and often just log off. Grrr!
agree those arnt quests as much as there jobs or bounties
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
Comments
i agree with what u say
learn from WII
being different rather that go down the same path as all go does yield its rewards
I agree, I like PvP as well but only if I am guaranteed to win every single time. Nothing annoys me more than dying because of another player. I mean, its not like I'm carebears, I just don't do well with losing even once. Its not very realistic if I die, even one time.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Are skills just another "Level" system ..using a different name? I say this not in sarcastic retort, but as an honest question. If skill based system is significantly different, explain. I too would be happy to get away from 'level' based games, and if skill system games are truely different, then its something I will look for in future MMORPGs
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Id probably agree with everything mentioned here. These features arent neccessarily bad, since some players prefer them, but when theyre all thats out there, then we have a problem.
1) Class/level system. This is one of my most hated, especially since its in almost every MMO. Its definately NOT the best system, its NOT the only viable system, its NOT the most realistic system, and its NOT the most RPG appropriate system. I dont know if there are many PnP vets on here, but the old West End Games version of Star Wars was a great PnP games largely because it was a skill based game. No classes, no levels, just skills. You could raise ANY skills you want by spending "character points", which were basically xp. It was a very fluid system with lots of freedom. You really could make what ever you wanted. Theres honestly NO reason why a system like this couldnt work in an MMO, except that developers are too lazy.
2) Boring combat. Probably my single, most hated feature, and the one that leads to boredom the quickest. Slow paced, auto attack style, let-my-character-do-all-the-work combat. You know, you can have the rpg feel, with character stats and abilities, and still require some player skill and innvolvement. Combat doesnt have to be so detached and basic. Once youve learned how to play your character youre pretty much done. Thats generally when I get bored or quit. I know that I have "the formula" down, so its all just dice rolls and auto attacks from then on. In a true, massive, instance free MMO, Im not sure what they can do with current technology, but they need some more engaging than the current system.
3) Static Worlds. Lame. We want to see living, breathing, evolving worlds. Not static, stagnant worlds where nothing ever changes until the expansion rolls out. Epic, linear questlines are for single player games, lets stop trying to pretend like they work in MMOs.
I'll preface this by saying that while I think that classes and levels are limiting, they make for interesting group and raid dynamics, something which I think is important. Perhaps exploring roles, rather than classes would be better. Anyway, onto shit that I really hate.
1.) TASKS! By this, I don't mean quests Everquest style, which were believable things that NPCs would make you do, and would seem reasonable and realistic. There is a difference between tasks and quests. Tasks have their place, for example, low level characters could perform vermin control tasks, giving body parts of vermin to taskmasters for a small reward. Not bad, nothing spectacular, though. Quests though, are very different. In most MMOs, there are only two quests, get to the end level, and get phat lewt. Now, we need to implement more quests, things that players have to actually work to complete. How do we do this? Undefine it... just have NPCs or even PCs ask for you to do shit, no more of these fucking question marks above their heads, no more quest journals, the player can record progress themselves if they want to. Non repeatable quests, similar to the main storyline of games such as Icewind Dale or Planescape: Torment would go a long way to make life interesting. Yes, a lot of developer work for few players, but oh so worth it for the development of the game.
2.) INSTANCES! Fuck that, just make the best and most dedicated player win the drops. This is a competition, after all, not a cakewalk.
3.) THE HERO BULLSHIT! Like in Everquest II, the level 35^^^ Heroic guard at the beginning of the game, the one that could kill me in one hit with ease calls me a hero and asks me to save him from a goblin invasion. When I start, I'm shit, so I want to be treated as such, some characters should taunt me, others should tell me to, well, fuck off. That way, when I get badass, it's a lot more involving.
7.) Mobs dropping uber loot. Mobs should drop what they have. A skeleton should drop bones, all of the bones. Rats should drop rat flesh, rat bones, rat fur, rat head and a rat tail, if you can skin it properly. So forth, so on.
8.) Linear progression... Oh, I'm done with this area now, so I can move on? That's why I'm paying $15 a month for an online game...
There's more, but I can't be bothered.
1) Multiple chars per account per server. It won't stop me playing but my ultimate game couldn't have it, so if its in, it's not my baby.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
#1 Load Screens. I understand they are necessary sometimes, but keep them to a minimum. One of the reasons I didn't like LOTRO was that there were too many load screens. I once had to go thru a load screen to go inside a building, then I had to go thru another load screen to go to the second floor and then had to go thru yet another load screen to go to a different room on that floor. It was only beta, but c'mon!!!!
#2 Ganking in town and killing of quest NPC's. PvP combat in major cities should be turned off so I can go about my business in peace if I so choose, PvP server or not. If someone engages an NPC, then their PvP flag should be set and anyone can attack them, but if they do then they are in PvP as well so you can try to protect your own NPC's if you want but you can also choose to ignore it. Major cities are too important for quests, buying/selling of pots, equipment, trading and so forth to have to put up with idiots who are just there to grief.
No, skills are not a level system at all. Skill based systems generally don't go hand in hand with any type of level system unless the level system is something very simple like having X amount of skills equals level Y. This is what Anarchy Online does.
PreCU Star Wars Galaxies didn't even have levels beyond transparent tags which the server used to determine how difficult a particular mob would be for you. Here's a link to a preCU SWG Character Builder. SWG featured many, many different types of XP which were used to advance your character in different skills. For instance, you'd need to kill stuff with a carbine to earn carbine XP which in turn would be used earn carbine skill boxes. You also had rifle XP, pistol XP, one-handed melee XP, polearms XP, investigation XP for bounty hunting, et cetera.
EVE also uses a skill based system but instead of relying on XP for advancement the game relies on time passage. So a simple skill might take just an hour to learn, but the next would be five hours, then 25 hours, 125 hours, and so on and so forth. EVE doesn't use any XP at all. EVE also has no limit to how many skills one can be trained in. As long as you have the time you can keep on earning skills forever and ever.
Now, as much as I love skill systems there is one thing I hate and preCU SWG is guilty of it. I hate it when "roles" are turned into separate skills/professions. What I mean by this are basically the professions smuggler and bounty hunter. Everything within the professions was fine skill wise but I don't think the professions should have ever been included in the first place. I would have preferred if it bounty hunting and smuggling were game mechanics, minigames unto themselves, that anyone with any skills could participate in. Obviously certain skills would lend themselves to being proficient in either category but to say bounty hunters must have skills X, Y, and Z or smugglers must have skills A, B, and C is just silly to me. I don't like putting the role of a player before the action is actually performed.
So it shouldn't be "I'm a bounty hunter therefore I bounty hunt." It should be, "I choose to bounty hunt with my skills and am therefore a bounty hunter." The action of doing something should define your character, not a preset series of skills or a class.
didnt read the whole thread yet but yep these are the killers for me too. It has gotten so bad when i hear an MMO has clases / levels its a quick turn off. really I like PVE but i want self diurected PVE like in EVE or Starport.
now there are thing that might make me overcome my hate like if they promise something new like aim/dodge but if im not turned on immediately i'll just go back to playing my favorite FPS.
a friend just told me about Puzzle pirates its gotten this bad I'm thinking bout checking this out because it has risk vs reward and a focus on player skill lol.
no classes and no dice rolls and no computer deciding if i won is a good trait I want to look for. seriously im going to try puzzle pirates wish me look haha (also liked EVE just taking a small break to play other stuff so its not all bad). EVE does a good job of pretty much nullifying that list. saga of ryzom looks good too me these days too thinking of trying that one day if time is on my side
Big numbers. No, wait - BIGGER numbers! No, wait again.... Really freakin' HUGE numbers!
What in the crap is going on? I started out with D&D, where a Strength of 18 was awesome. That was the biggest, burliest fighter in the world. Hell, even Zeus only had a 25 Strength. You could add a few points here and there with some really impressive magic items, but most of your stats were in the 3-18 range.
Somewhere along the line, somebody decided that using larger numbers would be more impressive. You weren't stuck with a Strength of only 18 - now you could have a Strength of 500, and do thousands of points of damage with a single attack! 500 is so much better than 18, right?
What that's led to is the petty itemization, a ridiculous variety of gear with trivial differences, and a lot of silly equipment-shuffling: Boots with 350 armor and +37 Str look worse than boots with 360 armor and +39 Str, but if you combine them with the special armbands you get another +6 Str, though you'll have to give up your old armbands with 25 more armor. After making sure the armor on your left middle finger properly complements the ring you wear on your big toe, without offending the delicate sensibilities of your right earring, which was chosen because it synergizes with your matching nipple rings, you realize you've managed to increase your damage output by a whopping 2%. Hooray?
It's not a deal-breaker, since most MMOs are doing it, but it's tedious and boring. Give me my Platemail +2 and let me go kill stuff.
While the OP has a strange selection of things he despises, its a good topic. Here comes my list:
1. any form of Corpse Run
2. XP loss from death - death IS the penality
3. repair cost from usage; its ok to have repair at death (to a degree) but why penalize ppl for PLAYING the game as its supposed??
4. Lack of diversity in races and classes
5. lack of diversity in appearance
6. too cartoony/simplified character models
7. too narrow concept of things to do (like in WOW or LOTRO, it just bores me too fast)
8. Lag and crashe
9. Forced PVP
10. too long ways to the fun, need for too much out-of-game preparations to get things done, non-self explanatory games
11. too cheap loot (usually this means the game is more crafter friendly, because crafters want ppl NOT to have cool loot so they are forced to buy their crafted products) as 100% adventurer and non-crafter I hate that. I want cool loot for my adventures. If you want to craft, seek a JOB. PERIOD!
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Mobs that stand around doing nothing except provide filler. There's no purpose to them, they spawn, they stand around then they die.
I'd rather see a group of mobs fighting each other, where I can participate if I want to. Mobs that function together to build that item I'm suppose to stop them from building or to help them complete. I'd like to see a dynamic environment that mobs react to. Something that if I, as a player, ignore, there are consequences.
your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't
I like classes, but some form of advancement other than leveling would be nice. I also think instances are a VERY important component of any MMO, but only in moderation (boss mobs, for example). There should always be plenty of options for non-instanced play.
Things I hate:
P.S. Skill systems are still level-based, including old SWG. If you don't understand this, you don't understand math or game design.
agreed
Hey Ikavades,
Thanks for taking the time and explaining that for me!
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Ok what do I hate about MMORPGS?
1. Supposed Sandbox games. I don't want a world where I have to work. It is a game I want it to be fun. I don't want to have to work hard to have fun. I work hard at my job to make money.
2. Skill Based systems. The absolute most over rated system ever. Skill based MMOs just aren't a very good idea. They work well in a small scale where the game is population balanced. i.e. FPSers like counterstrike, UT, Battlefield, etc. These games are skill based and you are always going to have pretty even teams facing each other, at least in population. Skill based is crap in huge battles. You aren't going to be able to duck, dodge, and aim when you and 19 of you friends are fighting 100 other players. In a level/gear based system you and your 19 friends would have a chance to defeat 100 other players, especially if your gear is better and you have better organization. But in a skill based system your only advantage just went out the window. You can't physically dodge 5+ people at a time.
3. Full PVP with no "real" repercussions. A full PvP game with full loot should have a game mechanic that is realistic then. First of all my loot better not matter, other then money. Secondly their better be some form of "uber" law enforcement that prevents "PvPers" from even entering towns. The PVPers should be KOS by all respectful towns and any town that will do business with them should be a nasty crappy place. Think of the Caribbean in the age of hte Pirates. All of the nice towns with great stuff would kill Pirates on site. You needed a huge force to overtake a town due to the "NPC" army that protected it. Without that mechanic then Full PVP with Loot just turns into a gankers paradise, which is the most assanine game mechanic ever.
4. Forced Raid Progression. You should have alternative progression paths. For intance I should have the choice to do a raid with my guild in order to accomplish something, or a long solo quest to get an equivalent reward, or crafting. There shouldn't be any of this only 1 method to get what ever the best stuff in the game is.
5. Raid number caps. All Raids should be like Dark Age of Camelot. Better skill then take less people and get a better chance at good treasure, Less skill or just want to help out others well then take a huge zerg of 100+ to complete the content. Why force us to do "raid content" in a manner that only favors such a few number of players. The "power gamers" are already getting rewarded by the fact that they can complete the content with less players.
6. FFA PVP. Give me RvR instead. I want to have a "realm/faction/race" to side with. Don't force me to be in a guild in order to have allies to play with. Make it Realm Vs Realm so I have something to have pride in defending. RvR in my opinion creates some of the best communities in any game. Look at DAoC back when it came out. It had an awesome community with lots of pride in each realm. Then people figured out that if they played 8 man style they could earn better Realm Points. There went the community and the game became a cess pool on most servers. 8 man groups refusing to help their realm out. 8 man groups working on vent with other 8 man groups from different realms to farm Realm points.
7. No direction given by the game. It doesn't have to be like LOTRO with extreme direction and it doesn't have to be zone based progression, but I want to feel like I am important to the world. I want the same single player RPG feeling but in an environment where I can play with my friends. Don't just drop me in a world and say "Ok have fun". That kind of goes back to the sandbox issue. I don't want to work at the fun. I want the game ot just be fun.
War Beta Tester
What i hate most isn't even on your list. I have to go with MMORPG's being turned into MSORPG's(massive single-player online role play games). There just big virtual worlds where everyone runs around killing stuff and theres a chat box on the bottom. 90% of new MMO's seem to be repeating this cycle.
#1 Thing I dislike in MMORPGs, and nothing new, is the utter lack of creativity in quest design, they're virtually all the dreaded kill "x" number of creature or gather X no. of items variations with different monsters and different scenery. I know there are a few different quests here and there, but they are very, very few. Like in WoW, one of the early Outland quests is to go on a flying mount and bomb monsters below...a nice change but essentially kill X no of creatures. Just wish they'd be more creative and more dynamic with quests...we shouldn't be killing X number of creatures or gather X no of components all day from lvl 1 to max level, and the very least you'd expect very different quests as you near max level, more room for creativity and innovation please, there has to be other types of interesting quests out there.
1) Quests for the sake of having quests. MMO quests are horrible. borring.. repetitive.. If you can't come up with interesting quests.. don't bother putting any in the game. I don't want to go pick apples so granny can make a pie. I don't want to go save a village.. only to find that there's 85 people sitting there waiting this "great peril" to show up, so every mob in the group can be killed in 3 seconds.
2) Camping for spawns. I play games to have fun, sitting there staring at my screen for 4 hours waiting for a mob to appear isn't fun. And then when it does spawn it becomes a "who clicks first" competition between the 20 people sitting there.
3) Lack of instances ( see #2 ). It's becoming more and more obvious that games without instances simply aren't worth playing.
4) Static gear drops. I don't want to kill a boss just to see it drop the exact same thing it dropped the last 25 times.
5) Game designers wasting time working on "solo content." Screw solo content, MMOs are meant to be played with other people.
6) Level based game play, it's time skill based became the norm.
Dammit! What a great thread
Thanks for starting and thanks for all good adititons that we have seen on the course of the same
As most of my unfavorite aspects of MMOs have already been posted I think I´ll stick with my main...
My No. 1 aspect of MMOs that I came to hate, specially on new MMOs, is the lack of socialization, And I must explain that. First of all, it is very interesting that most of the aspects that were noted on this thread actually don´t play part on any "new" MMO, actually we are seeing more and more "rollovers", like if they have found the formula.
I must say, they did, with WoW they finally found a formula that kids can enjoy and play for hours non-stop, and have their parents pay for it, plus all average "crap-eating" consumers and the poor warcraft fans ( I add myself on the last ).
But all that actually got the devs to a dangererous place, this is a MSORPG formula, that standing for MASSIVE SINGLE-PLAYER RPG, all you do is for yourself, and there are almost no reasons, until the end-game, where you MUST do the end-game raid instances 100k times before getting your "phat-lewt"...
Devs should look to this and get scared, or at least read the genre name mMo, it´s an Multiplayer game, so it MUST be meant for Multiplayer, what makes my blood boil is that games are getting more and more single-player centred, not only on quests, but it goes on to actual game play, you don´t need anyone unless youre on a "party" in-game or running a raid/instances.
I remember seeing some nice things like on Anarchy Online, where you could "over-equip", or, use a weapon that you didn´t have, normally enough skill to use it, so if you get the right buffs ( from other Professions ) you could need it, and with that on track, this feature became a market and you could "sell-buffs" for more that just, killing things, even on crafting AO was so atached between peolple, you could never really be alone, and that is, imo, the main basis for all MMO, which we are loosing, fast...
Sorry for citating WoW, but its not just that it´s a bad game, it set a standard that it imo is very very wrong, and I am indeed very sorry for that...
I hear what you're saying about MMOs becoming single player events. I don't play SWG anymore but I do follow the forums from time to time. At the release of the NGE all of the PvE content was completely soloable. There wasn't a single exception to this. Even the DWB could be soloed with ease.
A month or two ago they cranked up the PvE difficulty across the board and what was the result? The forums exploded with threads lamenting about how the game is now impossible to play and they can't do anything by themselves. I never found it if they abandoned the rise in difficulty but I'm sure they instantly caved to public demand.
Ah, the NGE target audience
Enemies not understanding what I'm saying. You can make sure the opposing faction /enemy can't receive /tells or have access to the same chat channels but it absolutely annoys the snot out of me that I can't really interact with an enemy outside of smacking him with a weapon. If someone is willing to "beg" for his / her life I want to hear it..I might even be willing to grant his request but damnit give me the option to here his plea of mercy (DAoC / WoW you can't understand the other side, UO / Shadowbane you can certainly speak with the enemy and I like it better).
I agree MMORPG are stuck in some lazy rutt
instead of specific classes have skills and have enough so that its very difficult to master all of them in a month
if you want to urge people in certain directions then have them pick a catagory like warrior or rogue ect and adjust the skills costs
THE WORLDS! the economy is allways broken because its based on a combat footing and is NATIONALIZED this means that only a few elite crafters are able to get rich
the world should be an IDEALIZED REALITY where players have normal lives for the most part they garden,fish,bake bread, gather wood for the winter along with protecting their settlement from attacks,building fortifications, gathering supplies to besiege a rival kingdom.
here is an example water/ crossing a derert,,, If water use is trivial then you can simply travel the shortest route accross no need for side trips to water holes,, no need to have a druid/ranger/mage to aquire water on your trip.
there are more to chalange players than just varying levels of rats to kill
Im looking for a mature game that doesnt place 100% of its focus on combat and have crafting and homes as an afterthought.
MOBS WITH BRAINS! it would be nice to see quests and mobs that were better than the cookie cutter crap they have been using for the last ten years.
and it would be really nice if the quests get better the higher you go not remain the same kill X mobs or fetch x widgets!
as far as PVP goes the best games for me are the ones where I choose the amount of involvement and risk im willing to assume without crippling me or punishing me for not participating in PVP EVE for instance has no indipendant class so PVPers are allways blowing up your multi million doller haulers or miners just so they can proove how manly they are
WORLD IDEA
I would love to see a game world where you basicly appear on a new planet with a small kit and know nothing about it till you discover it and this planet has seed communities all over I prefer a hex type pattern where each community has its central hex and 1-2 rings of hexes around it as does every other outside these 2 rings are the wilds. players work together building their comunity fortifications, public works projects, town government, even building codes...
resources are localized to promote trade economy different areas would have different specialties.
I would prefer for merchants to only carry basic gear/supplies and for players to supply the rest to the merchants stock in a hopper or bin fassion
alot of excelent gameplay comes out of the everyday strugles much more justification for questing and foraging
several crafts exist only for the preperation of food like pottery or smokhouses baskets for storage
a starter player entering the world could allways get a meal by gathering firewood or maby fishing ect
make the world feel like its alive and actually exists for a reason other than just a arena for infinite mob generators
try to anticipate player freedoms like housing I prefer an instance plot of land where i enter a fort or ally and I enter my land area where I can build what ever I want if I want a burrow or a glass house or a stainless steel tower (joking of course)
storage storage and more storage from pockets to books to saddle bags
real responsive pets that you feed and train
weather climate fighting off a blizzard or plague can be just as adventourous as any dragon or 50 level rat!
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
agree those arnt quests as much as there jobs or bounties
make a world, not a game, we dont want another game.
My biggest peeve is boring combat, frick i am so tired of the whole point and click combat system in most MMO's SOOOO BORED NO CHALLENGE HELLOO!!!!!