Did she also down a boss? I'm sure she was also in AV, because there is no way she would be on top in any other BG with just SS or Hemo. This guy is claiming a monkey downed a fucking boss. Yes you can get away with shit like spamming SS nonstop in AV, but you're not going to down a fucking boss.
Yes it was on bosses. I hated WoW's BG pvp. So I never did it. I did raid though.
Dude... AV bosses dont count. They're nowhere near as tough as raid bosses. You just die and go right back to them, sometimes at a GY right next to their building. AV doesn't even count, it is a BG more than half the people don't even care about. Many people just sit in the cave and AFK, while otheres stay on "defense", and the rest rush to kill NPCs which are easy as hell. This guy is talking about actual bosses, as in raids. Anyway, whatever... The fact is a monkey was not downing bosses. Tell me about how your daughter was killing it in TK or BT, or how she was top dmg in AB or EotS relying on mashing random buttons or simply spamming nothing but SS/Hemo.
Not AV Bosses. Bosses in MC, BWL, ZG, and AQ20. I quit the game and sold my character after my guild downed Nefarian so I never bothered with AQ40, Naxx, or any of the TBC raiding.
I agree with the ideas you have placed down. I guess it all gets down to what you want out of a game. I play wow right now but as most are trashing themselves looking for groups and raids ... I sit back and enjoy the ride. I get more into the character I have made. I enjoy doing other things not just the raid and the best equipment.
You are right in that is what games have become, level and equipment. Raids and such. But that is what the masses want and so out comes the companies to make money to that idea. I think what has happened is that the companies have taken over and now they run the MMO's and not the people who play them.
Oh well till the next smart company comes along I shall be happy doing what I do.
I think what we are going through right now can be considered a stale period for mmo gaming and simply because we have "seen it all and done it all" at this point.
When motion pictures were first released they were a sight to see. We have never witnessed anything like it before and no matter what was on the screen it held their attention. Well as time went on motion pictures became less of a spectacle of amazement and more of a basic means of entertainment. In present day movies are still very entertaining but we have seen it all, and with every idea/plot used there is virtually no way to form anymore true originality...the same applies with mmogs. You only had perhaps 1-2 major motion pictures at the movies back in the day but now we are flooded with them giving us a huge choice and more options for everyone, again same applies to mmogs. By all means I am not indicating gaming is not going to be exciting anymore but I think it’s lost a little spark with time and increased popularity. In the beginning mmo games had an elitist status to it, meaning there were very few that had the drive to stick it out but we did and now there are millions upon millions that play mmogs, and that’s ok. Evolution is usually not embraced well by humans, we hate change and disruption to the natural balance but we need it, that’s evolution at its finest. Games like EQ, DOAC, WoW, set the standards and now we have this cookie cutter society of mmo games. Someone mentioned technology and it’s obviously a huge factor in gaming evolution, but it’s still young itself. Its obviously not money or talent that’s keeping them from creating the “next-gen” mmo games, it’s the will to WANT to be different that makes change exciting and most developers and publishers are focused on making that all mighty dollar. Hey, nothing wrong with that, but if you want consistency you have to sacrifice change and I believe that’s truly what’s going on right now. If you want to be BIG you need to take chances and be willing to sacrifice the bottom line for the big picture. Mature mmo games are there its not the game so much as it is the players.
So now I have managed to name 2 games that had basically no limitation to what you could do or how far you could go with your char in both of those cases and I underline this there was not a lot of lololol lore there wasn't huge bosses that you needed X amount of players Y amount of time to learn how to kill this boss. /Kell
This was one of the biggest things I noticed when I came from UO. There was a thought of end game with players of different games. To me back then the second coolest thing about MMORPG's(UO since it was the only one I had played) was that there was no end, you could always be better.
We are just in the dark ages of MMORPG's right now, it will get better eventually.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open. Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
First let me say thank you, to all of you that had constructive comments on this topic. I have been ramping up to begin the construction of an MMORPG i have privately been developing for the last 9 years. I have always had the feeling that no matter what game I play (PC, Console, card, board, imaginary doesn't matter) that there should be....more. The game I've been making is hardcore, and defiantly not for everyone. Almost limitless custom options; 15 racial options, 200 Lv cap, no classes, virtually no spoon-fed skills. With enough "lore" to keep even the most invested RP player busy indefinitely. Players control, build, and maintain companies. Players are presented to the world, and it is up to them to determine the fate of the world(s). All this and much, much more.
Having a system that is so far removed from what is being produced now, i had been concerned that there may not be much in the way of a market for a game like this. It is heartening to hear that there are more gamers out there that are just as sick and dissatisfied with the options we have been presented.
I feel that since I have the means and the resources at my disposal (though a bunch of seasoned Devs would be nice) it is my duty, mu obligation to deliver something to the MMO world that has only be hinted at over the years. We deserve something better...we deserve something worth our time.
(I am almost sorry to mention all this, as i know I'm still probably 3-5 years from being able to complete my game, but I wanted to let people know there is hope out there, there are people working to do something better, something outside the box.)
P.S. BTW I love talking about my game and would love to discuss it with everyone here, for your input or suggestions. It is still early production phase and is still very fluid as far as what could be included...I have been testing this game for the last 5 years with focus groups of gamers and will not take anything out or change the overall brutality of the game. Let me know, I have almost all the time in the world to talk. (I'm at work and its far from demanding LOL)
Your post can be summed up. There is no inovation in MMORPGs.
Well, your right. Even some of the upcoming developers acknowledge that there are not trying to re-invent the genre of games, but iprove upon past efforts. The MMORPG are just a lot of the same, in fact most (if not all) have thier roots in MUDs from the 80s which in turn was a text based version of D&D.
YOu want something revolutionary? Try to conceptualize a MMORPGF without HP. No health bars, no life force measurement. All games have this in some form or another. Try imagining a game without AC, armor factor, defense or whatever its called on the games you play...they are all the same.
When you strip down all the MMORPGs they comie out the same. I have # health and I will win if I keep it above 0. Everything else to a MMORPG is bells and whistles.
I hope to see a new kind of game that can somehow break this core. perhaps someday.
How can you say gamers dont know what they want? Its pretty obvious they know what they want when games flop or when games succeed in some fashion. Your particular tastes, wants, and needs in a game are infact a niche sized market. Alot of ideas, needs, wants, and likes by the 'niche' market are often called 'hardcore' or 'the right way' which is infact wrong. Its your way and your wants and granted its not as well developed and tendered too by game developers that still doesn't make it 'the right way to think'. There's millions of players out there in the world and its pretty obvious what a large majority of them want and yes game developers are going to take advantage of that and it sucks to be close minded and only see fun as being able to gank people pre trammel style.
Honestly i played UO before and after trammel and I prefered AFTER trammel much better. Why? Because I couldn't walk outside of town just to pick up herbs without about ten douche bags on mounts waiting to nuke me just to see if I have magical items on me. Hell they'd nuke me even if I ran out there with a stark naked toon just to see what was on my corpse. It was not a fun environment for people who couldn't dedicate more than an hour or two a day to the game.
The whole risk / reward argument is frankly so tiring, dying by NPC or dying by player is really no different. The PC Is techincally smarter but does that make them more of a risk? Worth more reward? Personally I'd say no they aren't. If its a skill based system or a level based system we all know that people will pick the weakest / newest target they can to fight instead of challenging themselves. There will be some with honor but most without and to punish those that want to play PVE with worthless drops and harder grinds is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can't make a triple A title without going for the bigger market in some fashion, you have to be able to prove or atleast show its possible the game will actually recover the money that was spent to make it in order to get some sort of budget.
There's a market for pvp and a market for pve and the constant dumb complaining done by so called 'hardcore' players that there's not enough pvp or that they're way is the 'right way' or that people don't know what they want astounds me. If you want a game to cater to your needs so specifically why don't you sit down and make one yourself. Maybe by the time your done another attempt at a shadowbane game will come out and actually work so you can go get your epeens off on harrassing players that aren't even at the same skill level as you.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't understand why this is a problem for you only now? Most RPGs have always valued the avatar's skill more than the player's. Modern MMORPGs do throw a little twitch in, but it will always be mostly the avatar's skill that determines it sucess. It sounds like you need too look more towards a MMOFPS or maybe a MMORTS.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
The only reason MMOs suck now is because they went carebear. Theres no longer a risk of being PKed, looted, or other things of that nature. People can say that they hate all that, and just want to have fun. But those same people are the ones bored with MMOs. There;s no risk, and no risk means boredom. The only solution is to start making games with more PvP risks, rather than stupid coop monster killing games like EQ.
I don't see how running around on a counterstrike server knowing that you can't die would be any fun. People are drawn to FPS because of the rush they get. Sneaking around corners, which at any moment you can get your head blown off. There's no rush in current MMOs. You don't gain adreneline by killing a mob with 10 other people, it's mindless. With total safety, MMOs with die forever. You may not know it yet, but even the most proclaimed PvEers will eventually miss the risk of free PvP.
Lineage, UO, EVE...all got it right as far as rule sets.
to be brief I think a great MMO would be thse qualities:
- aim/dodge (stops zerging, more control over avatars actions, funnier combat, great PVP integrates more player skill). problem is in good games like Guild Wars even though its like 12 vs 12 the entire team can just target call on vent and darn near instant spike ya. We need to use TERRAIN to stop this nonsense
- PVP regulated a bit to zones like EVE (let's face it if we're going mmorpg newbies will get punked no matter what so they need a fairly decent safe zone like EVE and time to find a guild)
- skill based progression (in my latest blog I gave a long winded reason why LEVELS are screwing up MMORPGs- LEVEL based MMORPGs need steady influx of newbs to survive read my whole new blog on Treatise on Character Advancement Systems to see why)
- focus on character custimization like Spellborn is doing with "runes" for stats. Runes must have item durability penalties to enrich crafting.
- 100% player run economy
Spellborn comes so close I am sad they went Level based they will unfortunately also contribute to the degradation of this genre. Becaiuse LEVEL based mmorpgs must cater to newbies so folks of all LEvels will have company. An MMO with ev1 at High Level would die because vets would get bored u see.
so #1 we need skill based progression or another Character Advancement system. I agree wit Herrboya's post it was a brilliant post
How can you say gamers dont know what they want? Its pretty obvious they know what they want when games flop or when games succeed in some fashion. Your particular tastes, wants, and needs in a game are infact a niche sized market. Alot of ideas, needs, wants, and likes by the 'niche' market are often called 'hardcore' or 'the right way' which is infact wrong. Its your way and your wants and granted its not as well developed and tendered too by game developers that still doesn't make it 'the right way to think'. There's millions of players out there in the world and its pretty obvious what a large majority of them want and yes game developers are going to take advantage of that and it sucks to be close minded and only see fun as being able to gank people pre trammel style. Honestly i played UO before and after trammel and I prefered AFTER trammel much better. Why? Because I couldn't walk outside of town just to pick up herbs without about ten douche bags on mounts waiting to nuke me just to see if I have magical items on me. Hell they'd nuke me even if I ran out there with a stark naked toon just to see what was on my corpse. It was not a fun environment for people who couldn't dedicate more than an hour or two a day to the game.
The whole risk / reward argument is frankly so tiring, dying by NPC or dying by player is really no different. The PC Is techincally smarter but does that make them more of a risk? Worth more reward? Personally I'd say no they aren't. If its a skill based system or a level based system we all know that people will pick the weakest / newest target they can to fight instead of challenging themselves. There will be some with honor but most without and to punish those that want to play PVE with worthless drops and harder grinds is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can't make a triple A title without going for the bigger market in some fashion, you have to be able to prove or atleast show its possible the game will actually recover the money that was spent to make it in order to get some sort of budget.
There's a market for pvp and a market for pve and the constant dumb complaining done by so called 'hardcore' players that there's not enough pvp or that they're way is the 'right way' or that people don't know what they want astounds me. If you want a game to cater to your needs so specifically why don't you sit down and make one yourself. Maybe by the time your done another attempt at a shadowbane game will come out and actually work so you can go get your epeens off on harrassing players that aren't even at the same skill level as you.
Oookey i think you have misunderstood alot of things here.
First off: Of course theres players that know what they want, but the 5 million or so new mmorpg players that wow has created certainly have no idea. Im thankful they created pvp servers atleast but they failed in that the only reason to kill someone there is to grief them, which just creates aversion to world pvp games later, im guessing. What i mean is that they misunderstand (just like you) the value of risk in games and they think the only way to have fun is run around slackjawed grinding stuff easymode. I've played some tabula rasa now and sheesh its just a grind of nothingquests and nothinginstances with no penalty for being a monkey at all.
Third off, im not that punk PK waiting at crossroads to gank you, im the guy that rounds up a pasi to fight them back so we can go kill stuff or the guy out in the woods with his finger on the recall rune chopping wood. The suspense of real-world ruleset with pks (bandits) in the woods that are out to get you is just amazingly exciting. Were you never stunned over and over and the pks made you pay some measly sum to let you go in UO? I know i was and it was the funniest thing ever
Second off, i never said that risk must be gotten from pvp only, you can have skill penalties on death and corpselooting mobs just like early UO did, its the same thing as a player cleaning you out. Pvp is just a way to create interaction, you know that thing mmorpgs are based on... The biggest risk in todays games is that you just need to run back to your corpse and pay 0.001 credit or whatever in repaircost, thats just pathetic. Even pac-man is waaaay more hardcore than that, you die too much there and you haveto start over like diablo hardcore omgz. If you let your monkey play the game for you, there should be punishment galore. In wow the biggest penalty there would be... um forgetting to blow your intimidating shout on kel'thuzad and the guild verbally kicks your ass when u wipe them?
It sounds like you didnt actually play that much UO pre-trammel, gankings were easily avoided most of the time and someone that runs around alone outside brittain is just asking for it. And i NEVER saw 10 pks at the same time, except nighttime 5 minutes before serverdown at brit graveyard perhaps, and im guessing you dont even know what that means... Dying in deceit with a backpack full of gold and a vanq katana was just as nervewrecking in trammel cause there you'd have to run all the way back thru mobs naked to loot your corpse before it turned skellie on you. And remember that the UO pks were playing in hardcore, if you died as red youre better off just rerolling..
Remember, pacman = hardcore, all current mmorpgs = carebear. Even though theres no pvp in pacman.
It sounds like you didnt actually play that much UO pre-trammel, gankings were easily avoided most of the time and someone that runs around alone outside brittain is just asking for it. And i NEVER saw 10 pks at the same time, except nighttime 5 minutes before serverdown at brit graveyard perhaps, and im guessing you dont even know what that means... Dying in deceit with a backpack full of gold and a vanq katana was just as nervewrecking in trammel cause there you'd have to run all the way back thru mobs naked to loot your corpse before it turned skellie on you. And remember that the UO pks were playing in hardcore, if you died as red youre better off just rerolling..
Remember, pacman = hardcore, all current mmorpgs = carebear. Even though theres no pvp in pacman.
Well I'll agree with some of what you say.. however, it sounds like you didn't play that much pre-trammel UO in other things you've said.
If you never saw 10 PK's together at one time except at "server wars" as most called them (the overlap between last save and downtime).. then I don't know what game you were playing or what shard anyway.
**UO PK's were playing hardcore and were better off rerolling if they died?** I guess that statement alone makes me wonder how much pre-trammel UO you played.
The murder penalty system wasn't in the game at launch. It wasn't in the game a month or two after launch...
If you were dumb enough to resurrect with penalties.. then oh well. However, that system had nothing to do with red/blue. But the murder system came later.. and yes when that happened many people either macro'd off their kills or retired their "pk's" because guild wars ... was where it was at for many.
PvP, penalties etc are not something that makes a game better. Can they be applied in ways that can enhance a game? sure.
I just find it funny that 5 million or 9 million people playing WoW are clueless as to what makes a good game.. but the few that aren't happy with any MMO .. know exactly what makes a good game. (oh and I'd be part of that few but corporations don't care about the few).
I loved old UO... that's UO before the murder system and I never had a red toon. I was the anti.. but I went looking for fights and they weren't hard to find. Sometimes you died.. sometimes you killed a lot. The thing with UO was.. it wasn't very hard to re-equip. There wasn't that much cost or effort involved.. well I suppose since I always had trade skill mules maybe my views are slanted?
I always had at least 5 setups in my bank.. if I died and got looted I went to the bank and was ready to roll.
Games now are all about the shiney .. uber loot... and who wants to lose that?
If you want a game with the penalties you want.. Then a developer has to make the game go back to basics. Where crafted stuff is good enough to use.. and people aren't asking more gold for level 20 gear.. than any level 20 could possibly have (see EQ2 as an example of that).
The murder system and the trammel split in UO.. weren't due to an outcry on some forum. It was a knee jerk reaction by a development company trying to close the flood of cancellations coming in... By the time they reacted it was to late and the systems they imposed just made the game worse for those who had stayed.
I know many people dispute it.. but I was in a guild of 200+ people... after EQ1 went live I was in a guild of 3... they all left for the game where they could go explore without being PK'd.
Plus posting on forums even if you can sway the readers views means absolutely nothing.
All those people who play WoW and don't know what a good game is or what they should want... Every other company just thinks about all those monthly fees. Thus you see the massive market of clones that fail (cuz the game already exists). They want the $$$'s and don't give a crap about the game they sell...
So until this "hard core" game idea can give them a similar player base... you are not going to see it happen.
Oh and old UO and pre-cu SWG were the only 2 MMO's I've ever enjoyed... I personally preferred UO a lot more but I'd rather not get into a really in depth discussion of why.. cuz it doesn't matter and the post is to long already.
Could it be that our companies just do not seem to have innovation as their main driving point when creating games? It's a risk, to be sure to devolp a game with new mechanics and a different playing mode and still be cinsidered a quest driven community friendly MMO.
PvP and the onset of First Person Shooters coming into computer games has basically changed the feel and lure of MMO's today. Young boys want to fight each other on line. Sort of the old "Rock'em Sock'em" robots thing.
The lack for new games to have immersion in the lore of the game and eceonomies that haven't been fully thought out or developed. Crafting needs to be considered as a serious part of a full fledged MMO. We have too many "one trick pony" games.
All I want is the truth Just gimme some truth John Lennon
MMO's today lack innovation, boring repetitive grind for levels,companies lack the funds to actually finish the game properly and they make games way too easy (they do this because they want everyone to play their game). People actually have lives to live, they don't have 3-5 hrs a day to sit down infront of the computer to grind for a few levels. I really find most mmo's today really dull and boring. I think my mmo days are pretty much over until a company can actually make something worthwhile playing. Until that time I'll be playing Hellgate London and maybe some other online rpgs. Good luck on the mmo search !
Comments
Yes it was on bosses. I hated WoW's BG pvp. So I never did it. I did raid though.
Dude... AV bosses dont count. They're nowhere near as tough as raid bosses. You just die and go right back to them, sometimes at a GY right next to their building. AV doesn't even count, it is a BG more than half the people don't even care about. Many people just sit in the cave and AFK, while otheres stay on "defense", and the rest rush to kill NPCs which are easy as hell. This guy is talking about actual bosses, as in raids. Anyway, whatever... The fact is a monkey was not downing bosses. Tell me about how your daughter was killing it in TK or BT, or how she was top dmg in AB or EotS relying on mashing random buttons or simply spamming nothing but SS/Hemo.
Not AV Bosses. Bosses in MC, BWL, ZG, and AQ20. I quit the game and sold my character after my guild downed Nefarian so I never bothered with AQ40, Naxx, or any of the TBC raiding.War Beta Tester
I agree with the ideas you have placed down. I guess it all gets down to what you want out of a game. I play wow right now but as most are trashing themselves looking for groups and raids ... I sit back and enjoy the ride. I get more into the character I have made. I enjoy doing other things not just the raid and the best equipment.
You are right in that is what games have become, level and equipment. Raids and such. But that is what the masses want and so out comes the companies to make money to that idea. I think what has happened is that the companies have taken over and now they run the MMO's and not the people who play them.
Oh well till the next smart company comes along I shall be happy doing what I do.
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We are just in the dark ages of MMORPG's right now, it will get better eventually.
Your mind is like a parachute, it's only useful when it's open.
Don't forget, you can use the block function on trolls.
First let me say thank you, to all of you that had constructive comments on this topic. I have been ramping up to begin the construction of an MMORPG i have privately been developing for the last 9 years. I have always had the feeling that no matter what game I play (PC, Console, card, board, imaginary doesn't matter) that there should be....more. The game I've been making is hardcore, and defiantly not for everyone. Almost limitless custom options; 15 racial options, 200 Lv cap, no classes, virtually no spoon-fed skills. With enough "lore" to keep even the most invested RP player busy indefinitely. Players control, build, and maintain companies. Players are presented to the world, and it is up to them to determine the fate of the world(s). All this and much, much more.
Having a system that is so far removed from what is being produced now, i had been concerned that there may not be much in the way of a market for a game like this. It is heartening to hear that there are more gamers out there that are just as sick and dissatisfied with the options we have been presented.
I feel that since I have the means and the resources at my disposal (though a bunch of seasoned Devs would be nice) it is my duty, mu obligation to deliver something to the MMO world that has only be hinted at over the years. We deserve something better...we deserve something worth our time.
(I am almost sorry to mention all this, as i know I'm still probably 3-5 years from being able to complete my game, but I wanted to let people know there is hope out there, there are people working to do something better, something outside the box.)
P.S. BTW I love talking about my game and would love to discuss it with everyone here, for your input or suggestions. It is still early production phase and is still very fluid as far as what could be included...I have been testing this game for the last 5 years with focus groups of gamers and will not take anything out or change the overall brutality of the game. Let me know, I have almost all the time in the world to talk. (I'm at work and its far from demanding LOL)
Your post can be summed up. There is no inovation in MMORPGs.
Well, your right. Even some of the upcoming developers acknowledge that there are not trying to re-invent the genre of games, but iprove upon past efforts. The MMORPG are just a lot of the same, in fact most (if not all) have thier roots in MUDs from the 80s which in turn was a text based version of D&D.
YOu want something revolutionary? Try to conceptualize a MMORPGF without HP. No health bars, no life force measurement. All games have this in some form or another. Try imagining a game without AC, armor factor, defense or whatever its called on the games you play...they are all the same.
When you strip down all the MMORPGs they comie out the same. I have # health and I will win if I keep it above 0. Everything else to a MMORPG is bells and whistles.
I hope to see a new kind of game that can somehow break this core. perhaps someday.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Eventually someone is going to sue someone else for copyright infringement.
I'd like to put my thoughts down here aswell. Im a friend of kelldorain and we have been
playing together since anarchy online i think our first game was, and i started playing MUDs back
in the day before UO came out and that became my drug at the time...
Most valid arguments have already been stated in this thread so i guess i can keep it short ^^
I believe the main problem now is that the gaming industry has become too streamlined towards
satisfying the masses of gamers while at the same time not understanding the basics of psychology
regarding reward/risk.
In a mmorpg today the reason you play is because you get rewarded for the time you put in with
loot/levels and so on. But the time you put in is seriously inflated due to the fact that you
nowadays NEVER lose any of that time cause if you die you only run back and keep going.
This has in turn resulted in the problem of lack of content, cause when youve put the time in to
get the character his tierX armor/weapon theres no reason at all to do it again because the only
cost you have paid to get said items is inflated Time and you dont want to pay more time to see
the same-old content again and again. And the game companies are forever increasing the time cost
to get the rewards to keep the hardcore base of their players playing so the casuals have something
magic to aspire to when they log in at the weekends. Just look at naxx in wow...
But why is this? Why did they remove the exp-loss in WoW in late beta? Why did trammel appear in UO?
It's because players don't know what they want themselves! The ones that do understand that the
risks haveto be higher to get more satisfaction from playing a game are the ones that played Diablo
in hardcore, Early UO, Lineage 1/2, MUDs and so on and we're a dying breed! The new generation of
mmorpg players don't dare play anything that involves world pvp, lootable players or experience/skill
loss upon death cause the time they put into a game is Sacred and cant be messed with due to the
fact that they put in 8 hours of raiding in wow to get a few dkp points so they might be able to
get One crappy item nextnext week. Just the thought of losing that time all in one go is horrible,
so if a game says lootable player corpses they wont even consider it.
Which is a problem, cause a mmorpg with only hardcore gamers is a dull mmorpg cause theres no real
life in it. Mmorpgs needs peasants/working-class-heroes just like a normal city/country. The pk'ers
need small fish to fry, economy needs people buying that lowbie armor/farming that wood and so on...
Only game as of yet that seem to know what theyre doing is Darkfall, if they can manage it. But im
worried that they will mess it up.. And of course there will be a lack of players cause they're
scaring the casuals away
So, how would you make your game to cater for the hardcore and softcore alike? Personally ive always
thought an UO with a trammel that yields lower skillgain and lower quality drops could achieve this.
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How can you say gamers dont know what they want? Its pretty obvious they know what they want when games flop or when games succeed in some fashion. Your particular tastes, wants, and needs in a game are infact a niche sized market. Alot of ideas, needs, wants, and likes by the 'niche' market are often called 'hardcore' or 'the right way' which is infact wrong. Its your way and your wants and granted its not as well developed and tendered too by game developers that still doesn't make it 'the right way to think'. There's millions of players out there in the world and its pretty obvious what a large majority of them want and yes game developers are going to take advantage of that and it sucks to be close minded and only see fun as being able to gank people pre trammel style.
Honestly i played UO before and after trammel and I prefered AFTER trammel much better. Why? Because I couldn't walk outside of town just to pick up herbs without about ten douche bags on mounts waiting to nuke me just to see if I have magical items on me. Hell they'd nuke me even if I ran out there with a stark naked toon just to see what was on my corpse. It was not a fun environment for people who couldn't dedicate more than an hour or two a day to the game.
The whole risk / reward argument is frankly so tiring, dying by NPC or dying by player is really no different. The PC Is techincally smarter but does that make them more of a risk? Worth more reward? Personally I'd say no they aren't. If its a skill based system or a level based system we all know that people will pick the weakest / newest target they can to fight instead of challenging themselves. There will be some with honor but most without and to punish those that want to play PVE with worthless drops and harder grinds is perhaps the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You can't make a triple A title without going for the bigger market in some fashion, you have to be able to prove or atleast show its possible the game will actually recover the money that was spent to make it in order to get some sort of budget.
There's a market for pvp and a market for pve and the constant dumb complaining done by so called 'hardcore' players that there's not enough pvp or that they're way is the 'right way' or that people don't know what they want astounds me. If you want a game to cater to your needs so specifically why don't you sit down and make one yourself. Maybe by the time your done another attempt at a shadowbane game will come out and actually work so you can go get your epeens off on harrassing players that aren't even at the same skill level as you.
Please Refer to Doom Cat with all conspiracies & evil corporation complaints. He'll give you the simple explination of..WE"RE ALL DOOMED!
I don't understand why this is a problem for you only now? Most RPGs have always valued the avatar's skill more than the player's. Modern MMORPGs do throw a little twitch in, but it will always be mostly the avatar's skill that determines it sucess. It sounds like you need too look more towards a MMOFPS or maybe a MMORTS.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
The only reason MMOs suck now is because they went carebear. Theres no longer a risk of being PKed, looted, or other things of that nature. People can say that they hate all that, and just want to have fun. But those same people are the ones bored with MMOs. There;s no risk, and no risk means boredom. The only solution is to start making games with more PvP risks, rather than stupid coop monster killing games like EQ.
I don't see how running around on a counterstrike server knowing that you can't die would be any fun. People are drawn to FPS because of the rush they get. Sneaking around corners, which at any moment you can get your head blown off. There's no rush in current MMOs. You don't gain adreneline by killing a mob with 10 other people, it's mindless. With total safety, MMOs with die forever. You may not know it yet, but even the most proclaimed PvEers will eventually miss the risk of free PvP.
Lineage, UO, EVE...all got it right as far as rule sets.
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to be brief I think a great MMO would be thse qualities:
- aim/dodge (stops zerging, more control over avatars actions, funnier combat, great PVP integrates more player skill). problem is in good games like Guild Wars even though its like 12 vs 12 the entire team can just target call on vent and darn near instant spike ya. We need to use TERRAIN to stop this nonsense
- PVP regulated a bit to zones like EVE (let's face it if we're going mmorpg newbies will get punked no matter what so they need a fairly decent safe zone like EVE and time to find a guild)
- skill based progression (in my latest blog I gave a long winded reason why LEVELS are screwing up MMORPGs- LEVEL based MMORPGs need steady influx of newbs to survive read my whole new blog on Treatise on Character Advancement Systems to see why)
- focus on character custimization like Spellborn is doing with "runes" for stats. Runes must have item durability penalties to enrich crafting.
- 100% player run economy
Spellborn comes so close I am sad they went Level based they will unfortunately also contribute to the degradation of this genre. Becaiuse LEVEL based mmorpgs must cater to newbies so folks of all LEvels will have company. An MMO with ev1 at High Level would die because vets would get bored u see.
so #1 we need skill based progression or another Character Advancement system. I agree wit Herrboya's post it was a brilliant post
Oookey i think you have misunderstood alot of things here.
First off: Of course theres players that know what they want, but the 5 million or so new mmorpg players that wow has created certainly have no idea. Im thankful they created pvp servers atleast but they failed in that the only reason to kill someone there is to grief them, which just creates aversion to world pvp games later, im guessing. What i mean is that they misunderstand (just like you) the value of risk in games and they think the only way to have fun is run around slackjawed grinding stuff easymode. I've played some tabula rasa now and sheesh its just a grind of nothingquests and nothinginstances with no penalty for being a monkey at all.
Third off, im not that punk PK waiting at crossroads to gank you, im the guy that rounds up a pasi to fight them back so we can go kill stuff or the guy out in the woods with his finger on the recall rune chopping wood. The suspense of real-world ruleset with pks (bandits) in the woods that are out to get you is just amazingly exciting. Were you never stunned over and over and the pks made you pay some measly sum to let you go in UO? I know i was and it was the funniest thing ever
Second off, i never said that risk must be gotten from pvp only, you can have skill penalties on death and corpselooting mobs just like early UO did, its the same thing as a player cleaning you out. Pvp is just a way to create interaction, you know that thing mmorpgs are based on... The biggest risk in todays games is that you just need to run back to your corpse and pay 0.001 credit or whatever in repaircost, thats just pathetic. Even pac-man is waaaay more hardcore than that, you die too much there and you haveto start over like diablo hardcore omgz. If you let your monkey play the game for you, there should be punishment galore. In wow the biggest penalty there would be... um forgetting to blow your intimidating shout on kel'thuzad and the guild verbally kicks your ass when u wipe them?
It sounds like you didnt actually play that much UO pre-trammel, gankings were easily avoided most of the time and someone that runs around alone outside brittain is just asking for it. And i NEVER saw 10 pks at the same time, except nighttime 5 minutes before serverdown at brit graveyard perhaps, and im guessing you dont even know what that means... Dying in deceit with a backpack full of gold and a vanq katana was just as nervewrecking in trammel cause there you'd have to run all the way back thru mobs naked to loot your corpse before it turned skellie on you. And remember that the UO pks were playing in hardcore, if you died as red youre better off just rerolling..
Remember, pacman = hardcore, all current mmorpgs = carebear. Even though theres no pvp in pacman.
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If you never saw 10 PK's together at one time except at "server wars" as most called them (the overlap between last save and downtime).. then I don't know what game you were playing or what shard anyway.
**UO PK's were playing hardcore and were better off rerolling if they died?** I guess that statement alone makes me wonder how much pre-trammel UO you played.
The murder penalty system wasn't in the game at launch. It wasn't in the game a month or two after launch...
If you were dumb enough to resurrect with penalties.. then oh well. However, that system had nothing to do with red/blue. But the murder system came later.. and yes when that happened many people either macro'd off their kills or retired their "pk's" because guild wars ... was where it was at for many.
PvP, penalties etc are not something that makes a game better. Can they be applied in ways that can enhance a game? sure.
I just find it funny that 5 million or 9 million people playing WoW are clueless as to what makes a good game.. but the few that aren't happy with any MMO .. know exactly what makes a good game. (oh and I'd be part of that few but corporations don't care about the few).
I loved old UO... that's UO before the murder system and I never had a red toon. I was the anti.. but I went looking for fights and they weren't hard to find. Sometimes you died.. sometimes you killed a lot. The thing with UO was.. it wasn't very hard to re-equip. There wasn't that much cost or effort involved.. well I suppose since I always had trade skill mules maybe my views are slanted?
I always had at least 5 setups in my bank.. if I died and got looted I went to the bank and was ready to roll.
Games now are all about the shiney .. uber loot... and who wants to lose that?
If you want a game with the penalties you want.. Then a developer has to make the game go back to basics. Where crafted stuff is good enough to use.. and people aren't asking more gold for level 20 gear.. than any level 20 could possibly have (see EQ2 as an example of that).
The murder system and the trammel split in UO.. weren't due to an outcry on some forum. It was a knee jerk reaction by a development company trying to close the flood of cancellations coming in... By the time they reacted it was to late and the systems they imposed just made the game worse for those who had stayed.
I know many people dispute it.. but I was in a guild of 200+ people... after EQ1 went live I was in a guild of 3... they all left for the game where they could go explore without being PK'd.
Plus posting on forums even if you can sway the readers views means absolutely nothing.
All those people who play WoW and don't know what a good game is or what they should want... Every other company just thinks about all those monthly fees. Thus you see the massive market of clones that fail (cuz the game already exists). They want the $$$'s and don't give a crap about the game they sell...
So until this "hard core" game idea can give them a similar player base... you are not going to see it happen.
Oh and old UO and pre-cu SWG were the only 2 MMO's I've ever enjoyed... I personally preferred UO a lot more but I'd rather not get into a really in depth discussion of why.. cuz it doesn't matter and the post is to long already.
Could it be that our companies just do not seem to have innovation as their main driving point when creating games? It's a risk, to be sure to devolp a game with new mechanics and a different playing mode and still be cinsidered a quest driven community friendly MMO.
PvP and the onset of First Person Shooters coming into computer games has basically changed the feel and lure of MMO's today. Young boys want to fight each other on line. Sort of the old "Rock'em Sock'em" robots thing.
The lack for new games to have immersion in the lore of the game and eceonomies that haven't been fully thought out or developed. Crafting needs to be considered as a serious part of a full fledged MMO. We have too many "one trick pony" games.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
MMO's today lack innovation, boring repetitive grind for levels,companies lack the funds to actually finish the game properly and they make games way too easy (they do this because they want everyone to play their game). People actually have lives to live, they don't have 3-5 hrs a day to sit down infront of the computer to grind for a few levels. I really find most mmo's today really dull and boring. I think my mmo days are pretty much over until a company can actually make something worthwhile playing. Until that time I'll be playing Hellgate London and maybe some other online rpgs. Good luck on the mmo search !