Facts of my personal experience are not a bias. Me being biased would be saying that EQ rocked and WoW sucks because its all a bunch of kids. I didnt have many problems with the EQcommunity, I can tell you what problems I did have, I had a necro try to KS me once I say try because he failed but still tried, had a paladin try to train me once because he thought I trained him and tried to get revenge, also failed and got himself killed but not me. And then there was a guild that tried to train my guild, this was not a raiding guild, they where basically the server rejects, every guild and I do mean every guild hated them because they would try to train people, didnt last long as they all got banned since they where dumb enough to admit they where trying to cause problems. I cant count the times I have had problems in WoW because it has happened so many times, I have even had kills stolen from me in a game where its made hard to even do, my lock and priest had this happen alot because dots dont tag anything, so I toss a dot, they hit it with some low dmg low agro ability and them my dot ticks so I am forced to run away or kill it myself. I have had people ninja loot, even saw a mage once ninja a Felstriker and run around in org bragging about it, What kind of community lets someone ninja loot an item of no use to them, very usefull to the people he stole it from and brag about it while having no worries about what would happen socially?
There are good people and bad people in all games, while WoW definately has more than others( which is because of the massive amount of subscribers compared to any other MMO) the key is finding a good group of friends to guild up with, and their are plenty of good people who play WoW!
Now don't take all my comments to mean I am a WoW fanatic because I also want something better to play. I rarely log in to WoW now. I still think though that you have that oldschool MMO player sound to your posts. Less intuitive UI and more grinding do not a better game make and thats what EQ had in spades. It just sounds to me like you are burnt out on MMO's period, sounds like you need a break to wait for a better game, which in my opinion will be a long wait lol.
I know I am the odd one out but the only UI I have really like so far is FFXI's. I like as simple and clean as possible, I just want the info I need and nothing else. Call me crazy but I like looking at the game and not a bunch of bars and numbers everywhere.
As far as being burnt out on MMO's, well kinda. To far behind in EQ and FFXI to start over, I took a 6month break or so from WoW, came back and in less then a month am already saying "WTF am I doing here?"
FFXI is tempting, before we left for WoW which we only did because of server crap SE was having we sold all of our gear. We played BST mains and tank healer jobs on the side. Since we could duo BCNMs we made a ton of gil, meaning my nin and her whm where pimped to the max. Now what has happened is SE pulled a ton of gil out of the game droping prices on our server big time. Basically all the gear we had and sold is worth 1/3 or less then what it was when we left. In other words our chars are filthy rich because of changes SE made while we where gone. This doesnt help the fact few people level anymore since almost no new people go to that game now.
So here I am reading forums and playing Planetside. It gets boring after awhile but it is fun for a month or two at least.
This game WILL be rather easy and accessible to young players besides the gruesome environment and Mature rating warding off some. This game will be a lot like WoW in terms of what makes it so extraordinary and in essence, will make it yet another million+ subscriber MMO. If you want to play a game only with mature players, you are out of luck. The only real way to ward off all the immature and young players is by making a game very hard and less graphically appealing. Therefore you are stuck with player EVE Online. Give it a try and maybe you'll like it.
The problem with EQ was that the learning curve was so high and the general systems (questing, finding class quest, finding quest for spells) was so broken/difficult that only people who started from day one, bought gold or Ebayed characters, had a chance to really enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft came out and was the anit-Everquest.
It was easy to level up by ones self, questing was simplified and easy to understand, it was easy to find quest and quest givers, and spells were simple to acquire.
Unfortunately this cause a problem becauase it was so easy to do all these things that it attracted a much broader and younger audiance than old school EQ.
Now many of you have stated that you want another game as tough to get into as EQ, you have that game in Vanguard. And Vanguard as many would state: Is a failed experiment.
Even the most hardcore of critics panned the game because it took one too many steps backwards from WoWs easy to use model.
Currently the model for MMOs is easy learning curve, high replay value, easy leveling. And thats not going away anytime soon, Its the current model for success im the MMO industry. If Vanguard had done better you might be seeing more 'hardcore' games made but due to its failure, those type of games are considered way to risky especially since they cater only to a specific niche.
And if you want a PVP game based more on skill than equipment, based on time invested and ability at the game, then you really should be playing Guild Wars right now
The problem with EQ was that the learning curve was so high and the general systems (questing, finding class quest, finding quest for spells) was so broken/difficult that only people who started from day one, bought gold or Ebayed characters, had a chance to really enjoy the game. World of Warcraft came out and was the anit-Everquest. It was easy to level up by ones self, questing was simplified and easy to understand, it was easy to find quest and quest givers, and spells were simple to acquire.
Unfortunately this cause a problem becauase it was so easy to do all these things that it attracted a much broader and younger audiance than old school EQ. Now many of you have stated that you want another game as tough to get into as EQ, you have that game in Vanguard. And Vanguard as many would state: Is a failed experiment.
Even the most hardcore of critics panned the game because it took one too many steps backwards from WoWs easy to use model.
Currently the model for MMOs is easy learning curve, high replay value, easy leveling. And thats not going away anytime soon, Its the current model for success im the MMO industry. If Vanguard had done better you might be seeing more 'hardcore' games made but due to its failure, those type of games are considered way to risky especially since they cater only to a specific niche. And if you want a PVP game based more on skill than equipment, based on time invested and ability at the game, then you really should be playing Guild Wars right now
I will explain what I mean here a little better since I dont seem to be getting what I want to say out properly.
I dont want a game that is so easy that you can make it to level cap, rather quickly and have no idea how your class functions. This was my problem with wow, they could play a few months, make it to level 70 and still not know anything about their class. I want to game to be set up so that you learn what it is you do on the way.(to be fair part of this was the fact that WoW is two differnt games, 1-69, and 70)
I think the biggest fix in wow for MMOs is also its biggest mistake. They did what almost all other MMOs have not done, make leveling very fun. Problem is they really didnt do anything great, all they did was pull all the grind out and put it at 70. Personally I want some of the required grinding in my MMO to be spread out, I dont want to level for a few months having a blast and then get slapped with 2+months of doing stuff that isnt fun just so I can get back to doing what was fun.
Ive played WoW, LOTRO, AO, SWG, EQII and really think that PVE and PVP combatmechanics are really easy in those games. If you want a PVP combat system based on playerskill with a longer learning curve, check Guild Wars. Forget the MMO symantics debate for a sec because that combat system can be used in a 'real' MMO too.
For PVE I also think that a high max lvl is a problem. If people get the chance to grind their toon to a higher lvl and then start a quest 20 lvls below them, it turns the whole PVE into nothing but a waiting chamber for max lvl. No skill needed. Worse even if a max lvl player can take a low lvl player by the hand and give him/her an easy ride to max lvl.
Get rid of lvls, and gear importance and add more type of skills on top of the typical heal, (de)buff, dmg. Im thinking interrupts, knockdowns, (re) applying and removing (by your opponents) buffs during combat. Even adding twitchy combat where you can dodge missiles/grenades could be more interesting then a simple buttonspamming buff'o'rama using autoaim like current SWG PVE/PVP. It is just a lot more difficult to design then the 'classic' (read booooooring) punchingbag tactics PVE of WOW, LOTRO and SWG.
I think the trick is to create a game where it is easy to pick up and easy to learn, a bit of a challenge to get to the higher levels and do the better things int he game while it is down-right impossible for anyone but the best players to get to the very top. WoW simply means grind away to get the best armour and involves little to no skill to do. I am hoping that WAR will offer something in the region of a good player base but with the better players beign rewarded for their skill.
Clearly without the general appeal, the game won't make the money required and will close, leaving all of us without an option, so for this reason I want to see a popular game but from the initial looks at the game it seems it will have a more mature audience appeal than for the younger ones who want an 'I Win' button for everything. No twinking, ganking or corpse camping will ensure that people can't ruin the game for lowbies simply as they don't have the skill to paly against their own levels...which should hopefully rule out some less mature wannabes.
WAR is definately looking good for a more balanced, skill driven game that you can replace skill with teamwork but not just rely on gear. Plus being based around PvP and not PvE the matchups should be better and involve less nerfs to player classes but more buffs to other game mechanics instead, so learning your class doesn't mean re-learning it in a months time when you are no longer able to perform certain tasks.
i personalaly have a new high expectation for WAR. ive never been a fan of PVP or RVR (never played a RVR title anyway) but from what im hearing htis is whats gunna get me into it. i know the game will probly fallow the classic "easy to pick up hard to master" form, all games say thats how it is, but most are just well.....easy. hopefully this game doesnt generate alot of the whats probly 80% asshat community of the MMO-lite game WoW. i just want a good challenging, but fun game that has a great community. basicly i want EQ1 in new form, -alot of the dumbed down expansions. ....we can only hope....
Good community and good PvP feed off of each other. When a game gives you the feeling that you're playing with somebody against somebody else, it essentially breeds rivalry and companionship. My major complaint with WoW style PvP was that you could join a battleground, fight with and against the same 10-30 people for 30 minutes, and then theoretically never see them again. Outside of battlegrounds, you were totally isolated from your enemies and had no real reason to chat with your allies.
Part of what Mythic did with RvR in DAoC was make both your friends and enemies a lot more accessible. It gave you the option of putting a name and a face on your enemy, instead of just fighting for the sake of fighting. Another aspect of DAoC, open-field fighting, forced allies to fight along side each other. It was a lot easier to make friends through PvP when you had 30-100 friendlies around you. Talent and leadership skills would quickly show through when your entire realm was focused on a single goal.
After you began to fill your friends list with people you met through PvP, it became easier to fill your guild with people you knew and trusted. Guilds weren't about having X number of X class with the best gear, they were about people of equal skill level with similar goals.
Didn't read the responses to the OP very much, but here's my recommendation: Forget WAR and go to Vanguard. Seriously, you sound like the kind of person that would enjoy it.
LOL yeah companionship is the last I feel when I'm in a battleground. Best thing you can do is get in a guild that does permade bg's over vent. Problem is those are few and far between and there you have the problem with warcraft focusing on raiding.
Started with UO. Pre-trammel days at first. I honestly stayed in the Britania most of the time because there were too many gankers outside the gates. It was nice because they'd have random monster invasions all the time, so I'd level my skills fighting within the relative safety of the city.
I also made an Orc (roleplayed) on the Siege Perilous server, became a murdering PK myself and lived the life of the Shaduw Klan. That, was probably the greatest MMO experience of my long journey through the genre.
When Trammel came out, I was actually very happy! I could now go and explore the world without fear of some d*ckhead ganker P.O.S. ruining my day. I was getting more then enough PVP fun on Siege Perilous.
Sometime later they introduced the Factions system of PVP. I still to this day think it was the best implemented and most fun PVP system any MMORPG has done. I finally had a reason to venture back to Felucca and PVP on my "main."
After a while, in a open ended game like UO.... you end up realizing that you've done everything. I'd been to every dungeon all the way through and every area of the PVE world. I've PVP'd for many long nights within the faction system and the murderous orcs of the Shaduw Klan... I've trained all my skills up to maximum, found a build I really liked and capped my stats... I was a member of a proud guild was a fully decked out guild keep...
Thing about Sandbox games.. once you've "done everything" it gets old. But, that was 3-4 years later. I'd say 3-4 years of game time was well worth it.
I played Earth and Beyond after that. Something about it was pretty cool. It's hard to put a finger on it. This was the first MMORPG I played with more "direction." You actually had missions with objectives and a story. It was more like a single player RPG.
Then, came SWG. My feelings, in hind sight, are very mixed. Like UO, the game had tons of places to go and monsters to kill etc, a great skill system... but absolutely no directed content. The theme parks were all broken or really, really bad. The monthly arcs were not good. All you could do was grind mission terminals and craft. Player housing and player cities, to me, were far too much work. I never got into it. Even crafting in SWG I barely got into. Too much resource management, I'll play a strategy game or RTS for that thanks. I was very disappointed by Jump to Lightspeed.
I was a hardcore fan of the X-Wing and Tie Fighter series. JtL was a huge let down. X-Wing: Alliance was 100x better then JtL.
So SWG, you had all the planets and all these places to go and all these great professions... but nothing to actually "do." Plus, the game was SO buggy and imbalanced and the PVP was horrible IMO in comparison to UO.
Thankfully I left SWG before the Combat Upgrade and NGE. I left during the "grind Holocron for Jedi slot" phase because it was the stupidest and most ridiculous grind any game has ever, ever had. Period.
Then came WoW.
I started out playing an Orc on a PVP server, joined up with the Shaduw Klan again. But WoW was an entirely different game. It was nothing even close to the experience I had with UO on Siege Perilous. We'd mass up 30 to 40 of us and go attack some Alliance town, but only the power levelers who were already in the 40s and 50s stood any chance. The rest of us were lamb to the slaughter. It then became apparent to me that WoW was all about your level.
So I made a Night Elf warrior on a PVE server. Had a great time questing and running instances for 4-5 months. Only got up to the low 50's in level. I was in no rush. But the friends I had made had all out leveled me long ago or left the game/transfered servers. None of my RL friends played WoW yet.
So I gave up WoW for a while, ditched MMORPGS for a while.
I came back to WoW when my brother, who had been playing on my account, leveled an Undead priest up to high levels with a bunch of really cool people. A couple of his friends started playing, so I got another copy of WoW, another account and made my Undead Warrior. I quickly leveled to 60, loving the experience and all the new people I met in my brother's guild.
I'd end up running around in WoW with the same people for the next year and a half or more. Maxed out, started raiding, became obsessed with raiding. Got burned out, took a break. Burning Crusade came out, leveled to max, started raiding again. Many months and a few different guilds later, got burned out and quite again.
The OP told his story, so I tell mine.
WAR is the only MMORPG I look forward to. Why? I expect the leveling process to max level will be comparable to WoW. Fun and interesting PVE, lots of cool character growth and advancement, but with an added twist. Tons of PVP at all levels and a completely integrated system. Through in the Tome of knowledge, pretty much a huge achievement system for collectors and public quests, you've got an awesome PVE game. Since the focus is on the PVP game, expect that to be even better. Will it be better then UO factions? Hard to say. It was a different age, a different breed.
People seem to forget that UO was even more "easy mode." You could grind your stats and most of your skills to max in a day. Easy. They allowed macro programs for *&*! sake. The only thing that made it "hardcore" was that in Felucca if you died your corpse could be looted. There was actually very little hardcore about it because gear didn't mean squat back then. Sure you could become a PK and murder people. But for what? No smart player carried any more then they needed on them in Felucca, and nothing was worth that much anyway so I guess PK's found it "fun" to gank people and be griefers? Sounds like a psychological problem, some kind of control issue or inverse reaction to being bullied IRL, have to bully in game? Come on, every one has seen the South Park WoW episode. Talk about your stereotypical ganker/griefer. Nothing better to do.
Only other "hardcore" feature of UO was the Siege Perilous server, you're skills leveled slower and you could "max" your gains for the day. That's about it.
So does this pre-WoWer feel the same? No. I'm glad MMORPG's have gotten to be more casual. I'm done with school, college, and I work 8-5 Mon-Fri. I go to the gym, I have laundry to do, I go out with friends and socialize on the weekends (during the week sometimes, hungover at work = bad!)
I think the BIGGEST issue with this is that younger gamers feel like they "missed out" on the Golden Age of the MMORPG - the early years. They missed out on UO and EQ1 and pre-CU SWG and they say that they want that kind of game back, that they want something more "hardcore" and more difficult, but all they know is "modern" games like WoW and EQ2.
There are a few exceptions, EVE Online being really the only one actually. It's the only MMOG out there with similar freedoms to old school UO. I just HATE the skill over time system. It's not a "skill system" of advancement unless it's use skills to make them better. EVE is select skill to raise and wait X days/months/hours.
But guess why WoW has so many people playing it? Our society has changed, our games and the gamers themselves have changed. Games are much better now then they used to be. With the exception of massive failures like Vanguard, I don't expect to ever see a mainstream title anything like the "old school" games of days long, long gone.
I think players do not cater to newbs, or children. I personally think that they cater to try to get as many people as possible which of course means that they cater to people not on this site (the casual player). Thus , we the Power Elite (we really are the best informed) feel that these companies should cater to US. However, if these companies did that they would not make as money they do presently. Half of us would play Gumby in plate mail if they said we could level up and do some questing or PVP. Please remember where we are after all.
Nice post heerobya (and not just because I go to the same school )
For a huge change of pace, I'd like to hear from someone whos best MMO experiences WAS NOT thier first MMO. It is some kind of complex: no matter what MMO you started on, that is invariably your best memories of mmorpg gamming. So not suprisingly, the first gen mmos get called the "golden age" of mmos.
And thats the only part of your post I disagree with. The old-school mmo'ers will never stop talking about how great EQ1/UO/SWG was and then the new mmo'ers think there is something they're missing. When really there have been massive improvements to the genre. You can still go out and play f2p asian mmos that require 24/7 grinding if you want to bring back the EQ1 experience, but you'll never get the community back (the part I actually miss).
My two cents.
------------------------------ "Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
My first MMO was EQ 1... Id have to say I dont know why I loved it so many bad experiances, as for best MMO experiance, I dont know what i can say. I think threw all the games iv played (EQ 1, planet side, and WoW) jsut helping people when I could however I could whas what made me fell good, either making lowbies gear, or giving people advice/directions, or helping people out of a tough spot or with another problem has to be my greatest experiance(s) in any MMO that iv had... weird eh? I like to help people rather then kill them... inless its a RvR thing then Il kill people.
Proserpine- I think you are onto something too. Its not the grind, or the difficulty that people miss, its the community that came along with it.
The new MMO's have brought an entirely new playerbase to the community. Whether it be the younger lads, or just the casual gamers that weren't there for the birth of MMORPGs.
It seems like the more the MMO world progresses the more the veteran players of the genre experience regression. Not because the games are getting worse, but because they are getting farther and farther away from our "Firsts"
The best explanation I can come up with is that we, the veteran mmorpg'rs, are blaming the games and the gameplay for the change of community. If I could change one thing about WoW, or any of the newer games I have played, it would be the playerbase. I don't want to play another UO. I want to play with another UO community.
The best explanation I can come up with is that we, the veteran mmorpg'rs, are blaming the games and the gameplay for the change of community. If I could change one thing about WoW, or any of the newer games I have played, it would be the playerbase. I don't want to play another UO. I want to play with another UO community.
You young whippersnappers! In my day, we walked an hour to get from one end of antonica to another, uphill both ways! In the snow. With BEARS chasing us! And boats took two hours to cross the sea dn if you fell in sharks ate you! None o' this mamby-pamby warping stuff!
The old days were better because..because...because I'm old and i say they were! Dagnabit!
alright i wanna call a truce. second i hope this game is fun to i played wow for over 2 years and had mutiple 70s. i got bored real fast after that, but i do think mythic listens to the fans. i believe that is the reason behind all the podcasts. to keep us informed. not only that but they also closed beta to fix things and add things we wanted. btw to that thing you said about jumping. i heard this some where cant remember where but in WAR your dumb if you jump around like a rabbit in combat because mythic is using a collision engine so if you try to jump through some 1 during combat like in wow u just run into them and you dont go through them. thats only in PVP though. overall though i think mythic is doing good at listening to us and keeping us informed. i look forward to the game.
I would have to say that after some thought a few of you are correct, its not the games that are getting worse, its the people playing them.
I can grind all day long if the people doing it with me are fun, if not well then they just add to the pain of the grind.
I wanted my DE illusion mask for my bard(EQ), it really was no use other then looks. I got a few friends to go with me so that it wasnt so hard to get it, we spent 5+hours camping the mask that day, had a blast doing it. Now try and get someone in wow to spend anykind of time with you doing something that is of no personal gain to them and not really of any importance to your char.
I cant understand what happened but for some reason WoW got alot of people into MMOs that I would rather not have had ever play them, or at least not with me. I think it pulled alot of D2 players and warcraft fans, it seems that those games had poor communities as well, again this is my opinion so mileage may vary.
I can only hope that WAR will pull in a better community or at least promote a better one by game style, Wow seemed to promote more of Horde VS Horde and Allaince VS Allaince then it did Horde VS Allaince, not that arenas being mixxed battles helps that any.
.... just remembered this while typing all this. The very first time I logged into WoW I was in the dwarf starting area, by the time I had made it to level 5 I had seen more ignorant and annoying comments in general chat then I had ever seen in EQ or FFXI. Kids talking about paladins pwning everyone, and well my mother has a paladin and she can kill anything, others saying that paladins sucked and that their level 60 would beat any paladin.... it was sad.
Its sad that in an MMO you have to turn off chat just to keep from seeing stuff that makes your head hurt, barrens chat, omg is that a nightmare, for those of you that played horde there is a good chance you know what I mean.
Not to mention you are not allowed to ask anything in general chat under 30, your going to get called names and made fun of, no matter how simple or honest the question is. I dont ask for help much, I like trying to figure stuff out on my own but sometimes you can only spend so much time on a quest before its just not fun anymore, and to ask a simple question about a quest only to get called a noob ten times and told to thottbot it just drives me nuts, I dont want to play and MMO if I cant talk with other people without getting made fun of or B****** at for it.
I dont remember what all I have put under this topic so this may be a repeat but I think its worth it. I believe that because this is RvR messing with your team will not be put up with, if your side wants some info about a quest and you dont take the time to type a nice answer if you know then you are not only hurting yourself but everyone else on your side as well. I know I personally would be ready to jump on people for doing that, people being not only rude but hurting my sides RvR because they think being rude is fun.... I dont know what to say other then I just dont see it being tolerated in WAR.
hmm tried to quote tatsuyAce there but holy cow did it mess up so uh yeah
So asking for a game to be fun after getting to level cap is to much? I had the same problem, took a healer,dps and tank to level cap, after that leveling a new char is not much fun since the difference between them. I hate WoWs engame, way to repetitive for me, every piece of gear worth having comes from a handful of places, gets old fast.
hmm FFVI (FF3 US) came out in 1994, I still love that game, no I dont play it everyday or even every week but I do play for 1-2weeks solid every few months because I think that game is awesome. Is it so much to ask for a game have that kind of replay to it while adding in the ability to play with people from all over the world?
I want 2 things from an MMO, good community and mindless endless fun, FUN FUN FUN everything to be fun, I want there to be always something fun to do, all I had to do in wow was Raid/Repgrind/group for gear, Pvp for gear(have to pvp for good gear before you can have fun in pvp since you will continue to get stomped by people iwth better gear if you dont) and farm for money so I could do more of the other two. Thats it, hard to have fun when you have to deal with the same few things over and over again while dealing with a community that hates itself.
Anyone remember back in the day when we used to play that really cool game (insert game name here) then we would later post on bulletin board how cool we were back then. God, the old days were cool and so were the players back then.
the grind begins at 70? haha what do you want the game to end and roll credits? you get to 70 and you either acquire better gear and advance your character or you roll a different class..thats the way its always been. i mean what else do you want to happen? wow is the only mmo i have ever played where people aren't crying for end game content.
if their smart they'll copy wow as much as possible and theres nothing wrong with that because where as wow is pve based this will be pvp based and that will be the biggest difference (like it or not) i'm sure. there are alot of people like myself who play wow and mainly just pvp we are the ones that will be looking to jump ship. i believe all the pvers, raiders, and such will stay with wow because as far as pve content wow is king.
every post you talk about wows community maybe you're just to sensitive. it s the internet how can you take anybody serious enough to get so worked up?
Comments
Now don't take all my comments to mean I am a WoW fanatic because I also want something better to play. I rarely log in to WoW now. I still think though that you have that oldschool MMO player sound to your posts. Less intuitive UI and more grinding do not a better game make and thats what EQ had in spades. It just sounds to me like you are burnt out on MMO's period, sounds like you need a break to wait for a better game, which in my opinion will be a long wait lol.
No signature, I don't have a pen
I know I am the odd one out but the only UI I have really like so far is FFXI's. I like as simple and clean as possible, I just want the info I need and nothing else. Call me crazy but I like looking at the game and not a bunch of bars and numbers everywhere.
As far as being burnt out on MMO's, well kinda. To far behind in EQ and FFXI to start over, I took a 6month break or so from WoW, came back and in less then a month am already saying "WTF am I doing here?"
FFXI is tempting, before we left for WoW which we only did because of server crap SE was having we sold all of our gear. We played BST mains and tank healer jobs on the side. Since we could duo BCNMs we made a ton of gil, meaning my nin and her whm where pimped to the max. Now what has happened is SE pulled a ton of gil out of the game droping prices on our server big time. Basically all the gear we had and sold is worth 1/3 or less then what it was when we left. In other words our chars are filthy rich because of changes SE made while we where gone. This doesnt help the fact few people level anymore since almost no new people go to that game now.
So here I am reading forums and playing Planetside. It gets boring after awhile but it is fun for a month or two at least.
This game WILL be rather easy and accessible to young players besides the gruesome environment and Mature rating warding off some. This game will be a lot like WoW in terms of what makes it so extraordinary and in essence, will make it yet another million+ subscriber MMO. If you want to play a game only with mature players, you are out of luck. The only real way to ward off all the immature and young players is by making a game very hard and less graphically appealing. Therefore you are stuck with player EVE Online. Give it a try and maybe you'll like it.
The problem with EQ was that the learning curve was so high and the general systems (questing, finding class quest, finding quest for spells) was so broken/difficult that only people who started from day one, bought gold or Ebayed characters, had a chance to really enjoy the game.
World of Warcraft came out and was the anit-Everquest.
It was easy to level up by ones self, questing was simplified and easy to understand, it was easy to find quest and quest givers, and spells were simple to acquire.
Unfortunately this cause a problem becauase it was so easy to do all these things that it attracted a much broader and younger audiance than old school EQ.
Now many of you have stated that you want another game as tough to get into as EQ, you have that game in Vanguard. And Vanguard as many would state: Is a failed experiment.
Even the most hardcore of critics panned the game because it took one too many steps backwards from WoWs easy to use model.
Currently the model for MMOs is easy learning curve, high replay value, easy leveling. And thats not going away anytime soon, Its the current model for success im the MMO industry. If Vanguard had done better you might be seeing more 'hardcore' games made but due to its failure, those type of games are considered way to risky especially since they cater only to a specific niche.
And if you want a PVP game based more on skill than equipment, based on time invested and ability at the game, then you really should be playing Guild Wars right now
i agree with you to an extent
I will explain what I mean here a little better since I dont seem to be getting what I want to say out properly.
I dont want a game that is so easy that you can make it to level cap, rather quickly and have no idea how your class functions. This was my problem with wow, they could play a few months, make it to level 70 and still not know anything about their class. I want to game to be set up so that you learn what it is you do on the way.(to be fair part of this was the fact that WoW is two differnt games, 1-69, and 70)
I think the biggest fix in wow for MMOs is also its biggest mistake. They did what almost all other MMOs have not done, make leveling very fun. Problem is they really didnt do anything great, all they did was pull all the grind out and put it at 70. Personally I want some of the required grinding in my MMO to be spread out, I dont want to level for a few months having a blast and then get slapped with 2+months of doing stuff that isnt fun just so I can get back to doing what was fun.
Ive played WoW, LOTRO, AO, SWG, EQII and really think that PVE and PVP combatmechanics are really easy in those games. If you want a PVP combat system based on playerskill with a longer learning curve, check Guild Wars. Forget the MMO symantics debate for a sec because that combat system can be used in a 'real' MMO too.
For PVE I also think that a high max lvl is a problem. If people get the chance to grind their toon to a higher lvl and then start a quest 20 lvls below them, it turns the whole PVE into nothing but a waiting chamber for max lvl. No skill needed. Worse even if a max lvl player can take a low lvl player by the hand and give him/her an easy ride to max lvl.
Get rid of lvls, and gear importance and add more type of skills on top of the typical heal, (de)buff, dmg. Im thinking interrupts, knockdowns, (re) applying and removing (by your opponents) buffs during combat. Even adding twitchy combat where you can dodge missiles/grenades could be more interesting then a simple buttonspamming buff'o'rama using autoaim like current SWG PVE/PVP. It is just a lot more difficult to design then the 'classic' (read booooooring) punchingbag tactics PVE of WOW, LOTRO and SWG.
I think the trick is to create a game where it is easy to pick up and easy to learn, a bit of a challenge to get to the higher levels and do the better things int he game while it is down-right impossible for anyone but the best players to get to the very top. WoW simply means grind away to get the best armour and involves little to no skill to do. I am hoping that WAR will offer something in the region of a good player base but with the better players beign rewarded for their skill.
Clearly without the general appeal, the game won't make the money required and will close, leaving all of us without an option, so for this reason I want to see a popular game but from the initial looks at the game it seems it will have a more mature audience appeal than for the younger ones who want an 'I Win' button for everything. No twinking, ganking or corpse camping will ensure that people can't ruin the game for lowbies simply as they don't have the skill to paly against their own levels...which should hopefully rule out some less mature wannabes.
WAR is definately looking good for a more balanced, skill driven game that you can replace skill with teamwork but not just rely on gear. Plus being based around PvP and not PvE the matchups should be better and involve less nerfs to player classes but more buffs to other game mechanics instead, so learning your class doesn't mean re-learning it in a months time when you are no longer able to perform certain tasks.
i personalaly have a new high expectation for WAR. ive never been a fan of PVP or RVR (never played a RVR title anyway) but from what im hearing htis is whats gunna get me into it. i know the game will probly fallow the classic "easy to pick up hard to master" form, all games say thats how it is, but most are just well.....easy. hopefully this game doesnt generate alot of the whats probly 80% asshat community of the MMO-lite game WoW. i just want a good challenging, but fun game that has a great community. basicly i want EQ1 in new form, -alot of the dumbed down expansions. ....we can only hope....
Good community and good PvP feed off of each other. When a game gives you the feeling that you're playing with somebody against somebody else, it essentially breeds rivalry and companionship. My major complaint with WoW style PvP was that you could join a battleground, fight with and against the same 10-30 people for 30 minutes, and then theoretically never see them again. Outside of battlegrounds, you were totally isolated from your enemies and had no real reason to chat with your allies.
Part of what Mythic did with RvR in DAoC was make both your friends and enemies a lot more accessible. It gave you the option of putting a name and a face on your enemy, instead of just fighting for the sake of fighting. Another aspect of DAoC, open-field fighting, forced allies to fight along side each other. It was a lot easier to make friends through PvP when you had 30-100 friendlies around you. Talent and leadership skills would quickly show through when your entire realm was focused on a single goal.
After you began to fill your friends list with people you met through PvP, it became easier to fill your guild with people you knew and trusted. Guilds weren't about having X number of X class with the best gear, they were about people of equal skill level with similar goals.
Didn't read the responses to the OP very much, but here's my recommendation: Forget WAR and go to Vanguard. Seriously, you sound like the kind of person that would enjoy it.
LOL yeah companionship is the last I feel when I'm in a battleground. Best thing you can do is get in a guild that does permade bg's over vent. Problem is those are few and far between and there you have the problem with warcraft focusing on raiding.
I love these kinds of posts... *cough*
Warning - wall of text!
Started with UO. Pre-trammel days at first. I honestly stayed in the Britania most of the time because there were too many gankers outside the gates. It was nice because they'd have random monster invasions all the time, so I'd level my skills fighting within the relative safety of the city.
I also made an Orc (roleplayed) on the Siege Perilous server, became a murdering PK myself and lived the life of the Shaduw Klan. That, was probably the greatest MMO experience of my long journey through the genre.
When Trammel came out, I was actually very happy! I could now go and explore the world without fear of some d*ckhead ganker P.O.S. ruining my day. I was getting more then enough PVP fun on Siege Perilous.
Sometime later they introduced the Factions system of PVP. I still to this day think it was the best implemented and most fun PVP system any MMORPG has done. I finally had a reason to venture back to Felucca and PVP on my "main."
After a while, in a open ended game like UO.... you end up realizing that you've done everything. I'd been to every dungeon all the way through and every area of the PVE world. I've PVP'd for many long nights within the faction system and the murderous orcs of the Shaduw Klan... I've trained all my skills up to maximum, found a build I really liked and capped my stats... I was a member of a proud guild was a fully decked out guild keep...
Thing about Sandbox games.. once you've "done everything" it gets old. But, that was 3-4 years later. I'd say 3-4 years of game time was well worth it.
I played Earth and Beyond after that. Something about it was pretty cool. It's hard to put a finger on it. This was the first MMORPG I played with more "direction." You actually had missions with objectives and a story. It was more like a single player RPG.
Then, came SWG. My feelings, in hind sight, are very mixed. Like UO, the game had tons of places to go and monsters to kill etc, a great skill system... but absolutely no directed content. The theme parks were all broken or really, really bad. The monthly arcs were not good. All you could do was grind mission terminals and craft. Player housing and player cities, to me, were far too much work. I never got into it. Even crafting in SWG I barely got into. Too much resource management, I'll play a strategy game or RTS for that thanks. I was very disappointed by Jump to Lightspeed.
I was a hardcore fan of the X-Wing and Tie Fighter series. JtL was a huge let down. X-Wing: Alliance was 100x better then JtL.
So SWG, you had all the planets and all these places to go and all these great professions... but nothing to actually "do." Plus, the game was SO buggy and imbalanced and the PVP was horrible IMO in comparison to UO.
Thankfully I left SWG before the Combat Upgrade and NGE. I left during the "grind Holocron for Jedi slot" phase because it was the stupidest and most ridiculous grind any game has ever, ever had. Period.
Then came WoW.
I started out playing an Orc on a PVP server, joined up with the Shaduw Klan again. But WoW was an entirely different game. It was nothing even close to the experience I had with UO on Siege Perilous. We'd mass up 30 to 40 of us and go attack some Alliance town, but only the power levelers who were already in the 40s and 50s stood any chance. The rest of us were lamb to the slaughter. It then became apparent to me that WoW was all about your level.
So I made a Night Elf warrior on a PVE server. Had a great time questing and running instances for 4-5 months. Only got up to the low 50's in level. I was in no rush. But the friends I had made had all out leveled me long ago or left the game/transfered servers. None of my RL friends played WoW yet.
So I gave up WoW for a while, ditched MMORPGS for a while.
I came back to WoW when my brother, who had been playing on my account, leveled an Undead priest up to high levels with a bunch of really cool people. A couple of his friends started playing, so I got another copy of WoW, another account and made my Undead Warrior. I quickly leveled to 60, loving the experience and all the new people I met in my brother's guild.
I'd end up running around in WoW with the same people for the next year and a half or more. Maxed out, started raiding, became obsessed with raiding. Got burned out, took a break. Burning Crusade came out, leveled to max, started raiding again. Many months and a few different guilds later, got burned out and quite again.
The OP told his story, so I tell mine.
WAR is the only MMORPG I look forward to. Why? I expect the leveling process to max level will be comparable to WoW. Fun and interesting PVE, lots of cool character growth and advancement, but with an added twist. Tons of PVP at all levels and a completely integrated system. Through in the Tome of knowledge, pretty much a huge achievement system for collectors and public quests, you've got an awesome PVE game. Since the focus is on the PVP game, expect that to be even better. Will it be better then UO factions? Hard to say. It was a different age, a different breed.
People seem to forget that UO was even more "easy mode." You could grind your stats and most of your skills to max in a day. Easy. They allowed macro programs for *&*! sake. The only thing that made it "hardcore" was that in Felucca if you died your corpse could be looted. There was actually very little hardcore about it because gear didn't mean squat back then. Sure you could become a PK and murder people. But for what? No smart player carried any more then they needed on them in Felucca, and nothing was worth that much anyway so I guess PK's found it "fun" to gank people and be griefers? Sounds like a psychological problem, some kind of control issue or inverse reaction to being bullied IRL, have to bully in game? Come on, every one has seen the South Park WoW episode. Talk about your stereotypical ganker/griefer. Nothing better to do.
Only other "hardcore" feature of UO was the Siege Perilous server, you're skills leveled slower and you could "max" your gains for the day. That's about it.
So does this pre-WoWer feel the same? No. I'm glad MMORPG's have gotten to be more casual. I'm done with school, college, and I work 8-5 Mon-Fri. I go to the gym, I have laundry to do, I go out with friends and socialize on the weekends (during the week sometimes, hungover at work = bad!)
I think the BIGGEST issue with this is that younger gamers feel like they "missed out" on the Golden Age of the MMORPG - the early years. They missed out on UO and EQ1 and pre-CU SWG and they say that they want that kind of game back, that they want something more "hardcore" and more difficult, but all they know is "modern" games like WoW and EQ2.
There are a few exceptions, EVE Online being really the only one actually. It's the only MMOG out there with similar freedoms to old school UO. I just HATE the skill over time system. It's not a "skill system" of advancement unless it's use skills to make them better. EVE is select skill to raise and wait X days/months/hours.
But guess why WoW has so many people playing it? Our society has changed, our games and the gamers themselves have changed. Games are much better now then they used to be. With the exception of massive failures like Vanguard, I don't expect to ever see a mainstream title anything like the "old school" games of days long, long gone.
Heerobya - Great post, great insight.
You hit the nail on the head imo, I am in the same boat as you, as far as gaming history and opinions about todays mmo's.
Lets just hope WAR can live up to its expectations.
Aye, I suppose all we can do is hope.
I think players do not cater to newbs, or children. I personally think that they cater to try to get as many people as possible which of course means that they cater to people not on this site (the casual player). Thus , we the Power Elite (we really are the best informed) feel that these companies should cater to US. However, if these companies did that they would not make as money they do presently. Half of us would play Gumby in plate mail if they said we could level up and do some questing or PVP. Please remember where we are after all.
Nice post heerobya (and not just because I go to the same school
)
For a huge change of pace, I'd like to hear from someone whos best MMO experiences WAS NOT thier first MMO. It is some kind of complex: no matter what MMO you started on, that is invariably your best memories of mmorpg gamming. So not suprisingly, the first gen mmos get called the "golden age" of mmos.
And thats the only part of your post I disagree with. The old-school mmo'ers will never stop talking about how great EQ1/UO/SWG was and then the new mmo'ers think there is something they're missing. When really there have been massive improvements to the genre. You can still go out and play f2p asian mmos that require 24/7 grinding if you want to bring back the EQ1 experience, but you'll never get the community back (the part I actually miss).
My two cents.
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"Everything is awesome. Fundamentally."
My first MMO was EQ 1... Id have to say I dont know why I loved it so many bad experiances, as for best MMO experiance, I dont know what i can say. I think threw all the games iv played (EQ 1, planet side, and WoW) jsut helping people when I could however I could whas what made me fell good, either making lowbies gear, or giving people advice/directions, or helping people out of a tough spot or with another problem has to be my greatest experiance(s) in any MMO that iv had... weird eh? I like to help people rather then kill them... inless its a RvR thing then Il kill people.
Proserpine- I think you are onto something too. Its not the grind, or the difficulty that people miss, its the community that came along with it.
The new MMO's have brought an entirely new playerbase to the community. Whether it be the younger lads, or just the casual gamers that weren't there for the birth of MMORPGs.
It seems like the more the MMO world progresses the more the veteran players of the genre experience regression. Not because the games are getting worse, but because they are getting farther and farther away from our "Firsts"
The best explanation I can come up with is that we, the veteran mmorpg'rs, are blaming the games and the gameplay for the change of community. If I could change one thing about WoW, or any of the newer games I have played, it would be the playerbase. I don't want to play another UO. I want to play with another UO community.
You young whippersnappers! In my day, we walked an hour to get from one end of antonica to another, uphill both ways! In the snow. With BEARS chasing us! And boats took two hours to cross the sea dn if you fell in sharks ate you! None o' this mamby-pamby warping stuff!
The old days were better because..because...because I'm old and i say they were! Dagnabit!
You "got bored really fast after that"
What?
Did you expect at least 5 years out of 1 game?
I would have to say that after some thought a few of you are correct, its not the games that are getting worse, its the people playing them.
I can grind all day long if the people doing it with me are fun, if not well then they just add to the pain of the grind.
I wanted my DE illusion mask for my bard(EQ), it really was no use other then looks. I got a few friends to go with me so that it wasnt so hard to get it, we spent 5+hours camping the mask that day, had a blast doing it. Now try and get someone in wow to spend anykind of time with you doing something that is of no personal gain to them and not really of any importance to your char.
I cant understand what happened but for some reason WoW got alot of people into MMOs that I would rather not have had ever play them, or at least not with me. I think it pulled alot of D2 players and warcraft fans, it seems that those games had poor communities as well, again this is my opinion so mileage may vary.
I can only hope that WAR will pull in a better community or at least promote a better one by game style, Wow seemed to promote more of Horde VS Horde and Allaince VS Allaince then it did Horde VS Allaince, not that arenas being mixxed battles helps that any.
.... just remembered this while typing all this. The very first time I logged into WoW I was in the dwarf starting area, by the time I had made it to level 5 I had seen more ignorant and annoying comments in general chat then I had ever seen in EQ or FFXI. Kids talking about paladins pwning everyone, and well my mother has a paladin and she can kill anything, others saying that paladins sucked and that their level 60 would beat any paladin.... it was sad.
Its sad that in an MMO you have to turn off chat just to keep from seeing stuff that makes your head hurt, barrens chat, omg is that a nightmare, for those of you that played horde there is a good chance you know what I mean.
Not to mention you are not allowed to ask anything in general chat under 30, your going to get called names and made fun of, no matter how simple or honest the question is. I dont ask for help much, I like trying to figure stuff out on my own but sometimes you can only spend so much time on a quest before its just not fun anymore, and to ask a simple question about a quest only to get called a noob ten times and told to thottbot it just drives me nuts, I dont want to play and MMO if I cant talk with other people without getting made fun of or B****** at for it.
I dont remember what all I have put under this topic so this may be a repeat but I think its worth it. I believe that because this is RvR messing with your team will not be put up with, if your side wants some info about a quest and you dont take the time to type a nice answer if you know then you are not only hurting yourself but everyone else on your side as well. I know I personally would be ready to jump on people for doing that, people being not only rude but hurting my sides RvR because they think being rude is fun.... I dont know what to say other then I just dont see it being tolerated in WAR.
hmm tried to quote tatsuyAce there but holy cow did it mess up so uh yeah
So asking for a game to be fun after getting to level cap is to much? I had the same problem, took a healer,dps and tank to level cap, after that leveling a new char is not much fun since the difference between them. I hate WoWs engame, way to repetitive for me, every piece of gear worth having comes from a handful of places, gets old fast.
hmm FFVI (FF3 US) came out in 1994, I still love that game, no I dont play it everyday or even every week but I do play for 1-2weeks solid every few months because I think that game is awesome. Is it so much to ask for a game have that kind of replay to it while adding in the ability to play with people from all over the world?
I want 2 things from an MMO, good community and mindless endless fun, FUN FUN FUN everything to be fun, I want there to be always something fun to do, all I had to do in wow was Raid/Repgrind/group for gear, Pvp for gear(have to pvp for good gear before you can have fun in pvp since you will continue to get stomped by people iwth better gear if you dont) and farm for money so I could do more of the other two. Thats it, hard to have fun when you have to deal with the same few things over and over again while dealing with a community that hates itself.
Anyone remember back in the day when we used to play that really cool game (insert game name here) then we would later post on bulletin board how cool we were back then. God, the old days were cool and so were the players back then.
the grind begins at 70? haha what do you want the game to end and roll credits? you get to 70 and you either acquire better gear and advance your character or you roll a different class..thats the way its always been. i mean what else do you want to happen? wow is the only mmo i have ever played where people aren't crying for end game content.
if their smart they'll copy wow as much as possible and theres nothing wrong with that because where as wow is pve based this will be pvp based and that will be the biggest difference (like it or not) i'm sure. there are alot of people like myself who play wow and mainly just pvp we are the ones that will be looking to jump ship. i believe all the pvers, raiders, and such will stay with wow because as far as pve content wow is king.
every post you talk about wows community maybe you're just to sensitive. it s the internet how can you take anybody serious enough to get so worked up?