BTW, regardless of the license debate, I was one of the first ones to say I was originally not thrilled with Eberron after seeing the WF and the ships and all...but I have to tell you, I've really learned to love it and find it quite interesting.
Originally posted by Thillian And JohnH2005 get the facts before you make such an anti-something post. You were not just trying to state your opinion with it. The setting Eberron was not Turbine decision. It was Wizards of the Coast decision to advertise their world (it's the only one they made in such extent) All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D. There was no way to make it Forgotten Realms settings. Get it?
Actually, that last statement is false. Physician, heal thyself.
While Greyhawk, FR, et.el. were certainly created during and tied to 2nd edition AD&D, Wizards of the Coast (now Hasbro) purchased the game and its properties lock, stock and barrel. They now own Forgotten Realms. The creator, Ed Greenwood, no longer has any control over what they do with his work (this has become a point of mild contention since 4th D&D was announced and the conversion of FR is slated to take place after Eberron).
And where the hell you see me saying that TSR is the current owner? I was saying Wizards made Eberron as the only world they ever did, so they wanted to promote it. It was Wizards decision and Turbine could do nothing to change it
N O T H I N G
Even if Turbine was the first one trying to use Dungeons and Dragons license for a video game, they still wouldnt get a license for Forgotten Realms but only for Eberron. It was
N O T T U R B I N E D E C I S I O N
No matter what you think would be the best world for it, the only company you can blame that DDO is no in FR but in Eberron is:
W I Z A R D S O F T H E C O A S T
If you still don't get it, ill paint you a picture about it. Those are easier to understand I've heared.
Obviously, son, you did not read what I wrote. Try the decaf, I think it will help your problem.
Bizarre.
In any case, my point, which you did not address, was that your statement that "There was no way to make it a Forgotten Realms setting" was, and is, simply false. It certainly could have been, had WOC (now Hasbro) wanted it to be so. WOC owns the Forgotten Realms, lock stock and barrel. If WOC wished it, you would all be playing in the Realms right now (although as I stated, I think that would be more of a disaster than what actually transpired). TSR has nothing at all to do with the situation any longer. Indeed, it no longer exists as we knew it. I never stated nor intimated that Turbine had anything to do with making the choice between Eberron or FR. That you seem to have made up on your own and have gotten all hot and bothered about it, for some unknown reason.
Simply, try to remember that if you are going to accuse others of not "getting the facts before you post", be sure you are not guilty of doing the same thing first.
Actually, the point you are making isnt discussed or argued about. Who owns what and not was never really discussed. His statement, in this situation, wasnt false. WOC wouldnt let Turbine use any other setting than Eberron. Ergo, "there was no way to make a forgotten realms setting" is correct.
As I indicated, whether Turbine was allowed or not by Hasbro is not in dispute and is immaterial to the point I made about his post
If you read his two previous sentences, he tries to make the point that FR could not be used as a setting because it was written prior to Hasbro obtaining TSR ("It was Wizards of the Coast decision to advertise their world (it's the only one they made in such extent. All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D. There was no way to make it Forgotten Realms settings. Get it?)
The truth of the matter, as I stated above, was that had Hasbro wanted to use FR, they most certainly could have done so and mandated that Turbine make it so. It has absolutely no bearing on the issue that FR was released when TSR owned the company previously, as Hasbro now owns everything.
It was a Hasbro choice not to make it FR, a good one I might add, but not one that was made because "All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D."
As I indicated, whether Turbine was allowed or not by Hasbro is not in dispute and is immaterial to the point I made about his post If you read his two previous sentences, he tries to make the point that FR could not be used as a setting because it was written prior to Hasbro obtaining TSR ("It was Wizards of the Coast decision to advertise their world (it's the only one they made in such extent. All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D. There was no way to make it Forgotten Realms settings. Get it?) The truth of the matter, as I stated above, was that had Hasbro wanted to use FR, they most certainly could have done so and mandated that Turbine make it so. It has absolutely no bearing on the issue that FR was released when TSR owned the company previously, as Hasbro now owns everything. It was a Hasbro choice not to make it FR, a good one I might add, but not one that was made because "All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D."
Best, -Jeff
I need to take my pills or get a heart attack by dealing with idiots that can't read properly and constantly twist the whole meaning.
2. You played at some different tables than I did if these huge travels across wide spaces was part of your average campaign. Typical D&D travel was "how far do you want to travel today on your way to the quest?" , "10 hours"...roll dice..."OK, nothing happens, you break for camp for the night" and then rinse and repeat. The campaigns were AT THE DUNGEONS. That's the same here. You want to explore? Great, there's huge areas like Gianthold, the Orchard of the Macabre, the Desert, etc. where you can do that, each containing several quests in their own right. If you want to do a WoW or EQ deal, where I have to literally walk for 3 hours to get to a quest...go play EQ or WoW, cause I sure as hell don't.
Man, your DM sucked. The journey IS the adventure most of the time, or if it wasn't, you missed out IMO.
As far as the Ebberon thing, if I recall correctly, that wasn't Turbines call, but WOTC. A shame really, ebberon blows hairy nutsack compared to the other worlds. I think planescape would have been cool, and they could have added on to that fairly easily and stayed basically within the lore.
As much as I loved Forgotten Realms, I can see the point of not making an MMO in that setting.
When it all comes down to it, all DDO is was a really big advertisement for the ebberon setting, nothing more.
Ever wonder why LOTR and DDO were in development at the same time, but DDO came out like, 2 years earlier?
Think about that...they never gave a crap about DDO, they planned on making money with LOTR.
I'd suggest you take the pills over a heart attack any day, son. Don't ask me how I know.
After those pills kick in, then perhaps the thread will make more sense to you. In any case, it's really hard to take any more time out of my day for someone who has to stoop to name-calling.
Seriously.
You enjoy that mud you're in.
No.6, you are absolutely correct, and I know better. I was considering the TSR-created box sets and blanked on the fact that Greyhawk is as old as D&D itself. To make it doubly worse for me, I own the original box set and one of the books in it is, of course, Greyhawk.
Honestly, I think Turbine did screw the pooch pretty hard at first. Probably didn't even buy it any flowers. Following the development of DDO, I was nervous. When I read the reviews I was horrified.
But since then, they have been much nicer to the pooch. Got it a nice dog house and a fancy collar. Better food and one of those high volume water dispensers. I have honestly been impressed at how well Turbine has managed to turn the game around in the last year.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I'm not saying DDo is the best MMORPG ever released, I'm just saying that DDo is simply the most original and enjoyable game in last 30 years that gives more fun that you could possibly imagine. And I'm gonna resub right now after 2 weeks of living on a desolated island
2. You played at some different tables than I did if these huge travels across wide spaces was part of your average campaign. Typical D&D travel was "how far do you want to travel today on your way to the quest?" , "10 hours"...roll dice..."OK, nothing happens, you break for camp for the night" and then rinse and repeat. The campaigns were AT THE DUNGEONS. That's the same here. You want to explore? Great, there's huge areas like Gianthold, the Orchard of the Macabre, the Desert, etc. where you can do that, each containing several quests in their own right. If you want to do a WoW or EQ deal, where I have to literally walk for 3 hours to get to a quest...go play EQ or WoW, cause I sure as hell don't.
Man, your DM sucked. The journey IS the adventure most of the time, or if it wasn't, you missed out IMO.
Abolutely, getting there was always half the fun.
As far as the Ebberon thing, if I recall correctly, that wasn't Turbines call, but WOTC. A shame really, ebberon blows hairy nutsack compared to the other worlds. I think planescape would have been cool, and they could have added on to that fairly easily and stayed basically within the lore.
Planescape, Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, Ravenloft. All would have been far more interesting and original settings. Never understood why they went with Ebberon ("it's like Forgotten Realms but 'high magic' and you can play an iron golem!"....erm...wtf?)
As much as I loved Forgotten Realms, I can see the point of not making an MMO in that setting.
True, it's a huge world with a rich back story. Would be hard to do it justice, and honestly to valuable of a property to hand off to Turbine fresh off of their AC 2 fiasco.
When it all comes down to it, all DDO is was a really big advertisement for the ebberon setting, nothing more.
Ever wonder why LOTR and DDO were in development at the same time, but DDO came out like, 2 years earlier?
Think about that...they never gave a crap about DDO, they planned on making money with LOTR.
D.
I find your later points to be pretty speculative.
I think they did give a crap about DDO, or they would not have worked so hard to turn it around based on player feedback. I think they were crippled by being given sub-par setting, and also by somewhat insane design decisions early on. I appluad them for trying to do something different, but in the end they designed a game that would appeal little to the PnP crowd or the MMO crowd.
Post luanch they seemed to realize their mistakes (which I think most of us saw as mistakes months before the game even launched), and set about rapidly retooling the game to at least appeal to MMOers. Solo missions, wilderness areas, Drow (yes I know it's silly, but folks want their damn Drizzt knock-offs), bar brawls. Didn't they eventually even add an AH (did I make that up?).
If they really didn't care about the game, I don't see why they would have bothered. Would it have been better if they hadn't had a big attack of crazy when they sat down to make their design docs? Yes of course. But given the game they launched with, I think the current game is pretty impressive. Not that it's something that I think I would ever play past the trial. I just like to give credit where it is due.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
" I think they were crippled by being given sub-par setting, and also by somewhat insane design decisions early on. I appluad them for trying to do something different, but in the end they designed a game that would appeal little to the PnP crowd or the MMO crowd.
I just said something very similar to your paragraph in another thread.
If I'm nuts at least i"m in some company.
I am often ambivalent about DDO but you have to give them some credit for being as original as any investor would probably let them be.
DDO is a decent game if you have a regular gaming group. Without a regular group, you are PUGing or soloing [of the two I vastly prefer solo]. I think Turbine heard this and added the solo options. The place where it sucks - hard - is in the repetition of quests. When in PnP did you EVER redo a quest? You may have returned to an area, but things changed when you did [unless your DM was too lazy to change things!] The other main place that it sucks is in Turbine's changing of many rules. I understand that somethings didn't seem feasible to them - resting with possible random encounters being a big one - but they could/should have done better! Bottom line: DDO could have and should have been much better - NWN is much older yet still much better! Here's hoping someone will develop a GURPS world [though I prefer it with Open License d20 rules]
This is where there problem was for me. DDO is a good game I feel. I really enjoy the Eberron setting (I currently read the novels and have the setting book (first D&D setting book I ever bought)), more so then Forgotten Realms and I've played my fair share of games in that setting and read a number of the novels in the setting as well. The game is group focused and it should be. The problem is if you don't have a group it isn't to much fun.
Pick up groups aren't to much fun either. At least they weren't for me. The ones I was in were okay but they blew right through the areas. There never really was any time to explore since people wanted to grind the dungeon to get to the next area. Voice communcation was a problem as well. It got to the point where even though people in the group knew you didn't have a mic they'd start to forget that and start ignoring the chat interface thus alienating other members of the group. So the only other alternative is to solo (glad they gave the option and at least payed attention to things but could have been done a lot better or they could have worked on grouping more) which isn't fun at all when you actually want to group.
If you have a group already set before going into this game it can and will be a lot of fun I think. It would have been nice if you could have hired npcs as group members when you couldn't get groups with other players (ala Guild Wars).
Comments
BTW, regardless of the license debate, I was one of the first ones to say I was originally not thrilled with Eberron after seeing the WF and the ships and all...but I have to tell you, I've really learned to love it and find it quite interesting.
Actually, that last statement is false. Physician, heal thyself.While Greyhawk, FR, et.el. were certainly created during and tied to 2nd edition AD&D, Wizards of the Coast (now Hasbro) purchased the game and its properties lock, stock and barrel. They now own Forgotten Realms. The creator, Ed Greenwood, no longer has any control over what they do with his work (this has become a point of mild contention since 4th D&D was announced and the conversion of FR is slated to take place after Eberron).
And where the hell you see me saying that TSR is the current owner? I was saying Wizards made Eberron as the only world they ever did, so they wanted to promote it. It was Wizards decision and Turbine could do nothing to change it
N O T H I N G
Even if Turbine was the first one trying to use Dungeons and Dragons license for a video game, they still wouldnt get a license for Forgotten Realms but only for Eberron. It was
N O T T U R B I N E D E C I S I O N
No matter what you think would be the best world for it, the only company you can blame that DDO is no in FR but in Eberron is:
W I Z A R D S O F T H E C O A S T
If you still don't get it, ill paint you a picture about it. Those are easier to understand I've heared.
Obviously, son, you did not read what I wrote. Try the decaf, I think it will help your problem.
Bizarre.
In any case, my point, which you did not address, was that your statement that "There was no way to make it a Forgotten Realms setting" was, and is, simply false. It certainly could have been, had WOC (now Hasbro) wanted it to be so. WOC owns the Forgotten Realms, lock stock and barrel. If WOC wished it, you would all be playing in the Realms right now (although as I stated, I think that would be more of a disaster than what actually transpired). TSR has nothing at all to do with the situation any longer. Indeed, it no longer exists as we knew it. I never stated nor intimated that Turbine had anything to do with making the choice between Eberron or FR. That you seem to have made up on your own and have gotten all hot and bothered about it, for some unknown reason.
Simply, try to remember that if you are going to accuse others of not "getting the facts before you post", be sure you are not guilty of doing the same thing first.
Jeff44,
Actually, the point you are making isnt discussed or argued about. Who owns what and not was never really discussed. His statement, in this situation, wasnt false. WOC wouldnt let Turbine use any other setting than Eberron. Ergo, "there was no way to make a forgotten realms setting" is correct.
As I indicated, whether Turbine was allowed or not by Hasbro is not in dispute and is immaterial to the point I made about his post
If you read his two previous sentences, he tries to make the point that FR could not be used as a setting because it was written prior to Hasbro obtaining TSR ("It was Wizards of the Coast decision to advertise their world (it's the only one they made in such extent. All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D. There was no way to make it Forgotten Realms settings. Get it?)
The truth of the matter, as I stated above, was that had Hasbro wanted to use FR, they most certainly could have done so and mandated that Turbine make it so. It has absolutely no bearing on the issue that FR was released when TSR owned the company previously, as Hasbro now owns everything.
It was a Hasbro choice not to make it FR, a good one I might add, but not one that was made because "All previous worlds were done by TSR previous creator of 2nd AD&D."
Best,
-Jeff
Ah yes, here we are, a handy link: http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/Fantasy/DDrevw.html
Be seeing you.
I need to take my pills or get a heart attack by dealing with idiots that can't read properly and constantly twist the whole meaning.
REALITY CHECK
Man, your DM sucked. The journey IS the adventure most of the time, or if it wasn't, you missed out IMO.
As far as the Ebberon thing, if I recall correctly, that wasn't Turbines call, but WOTC. A shame really, ebberon blows hairy nutsack compared to the other worlds. I think planescape would have been cool, and they could have added on to that fairly easily and stayed basically within the lore.
As much as I loved Forgotten Realms, I can see the point of not making an MMO in that setting.
When it all comes down to it, all DDO is was a really big advertisement for the ebberon setting, nothing more.
Ever wonder why LOTR and DDO were in development at the same time, but DDO came out like, 2 years earlier?
Think about that...they never gave a crap about DDO, they planned on making money with LOTR.
D.
I'd suggest you take the pills over a heart attack any day, son. Don't ask me how I know.
After those pills kick in, then perhaps the thread will make more sense to you. In any case, it's really hard to take any more time out of my day for someone who has to stoop to name-calling.
Seriously.
You enjoy that mud you're in.
No.6, you are absolutely correct, and I know better. I was considering the TSR-created box sets and blanked on the fact that Greyhawk is as old as D&D itself. To make it doubly worse for me, I own the original box set and one of the books in it is, of course, Greyhawk.
Ouch! Thanks for the heads up.
Honestly, I think Turbine did screw the pooch pretty hard at first. Probably didn't even buy it any flowers. Following the development of DDO, I was nervous. When I read the reviews I was horrified.
But since then, they have been much nicer to the pooch. Got it a nice dog house and a fancy collar. Better food and one of those high volume water dispensers. I have honestly been impressed at how well Turbine has managed to turn the game around in the last year.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
I'm not saying DDo is the best MMORPG ever released, I'm just saying that DDo is simply the most original and enjoyable game in last 30 years that gives more fun that you could possibly imagine. And I'm gonna resub right now after 2 weeks of living on a desolated island
REALITY CHECK
Man, your DM sucked. The journey IS the adventure most of the time, or if it wasn't, you missed out IMO.
Abolutely, getting there was always half the fun.
As far as the Ebberon thing, if I recall correctly, that wasn't Turbines call, but WOTC. A shame really, ebberon blows hairy nutsack compared to the other worlds. I think planescape would have been cool, and they could have added on to that fairly easily and stayed basically within the lore.
Planescape, Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, Ravenloft. All would have been far more interesting and original settings. Never understood why they went with Ebberon ("it's like Forgotten Realms but 'high magic' and you can play an iron golem!"....erm...wtf?)
As much as I loved Forgotten Realms, I can see the point of not making an MMO in that setting.
True, it's a huge world with a rich back story. Would be hard to do it justice, and honestly to valuable of a property to hand off to Turbine fresh off of their AC 2 fiasco.
When it all comes down to it, all DDO is was a really big advertisement for the ebberon setting, nothing more.
Ever wonder why LOTR and DDO were in development at the same time, but DDO came out like, 2 years earlier?
Think about that...they never gave a crap about DDO, they planned on making money with LOTR.
D.
I find your later points to be pretty speculative.
I think they did give a crap about DDO, or they would not have worked so hard to turn it around based on player feedback. I think they were crippled by being given sub-par setting, and also by somewhat insane design decisions early on. I appluad them for trying to do something different, but in the end they designed a game that would appeal little to the PnP crowd or the MMO crowd.
Post luanch they seemed to realize their mistakes (which I think most of us saw as mistakes months before the game even launched), and set about rapidly retooling the game to at least appeal to MMOers. Solo missions, wilderness areas, Drow (yes I know it's silly, but folks want their damn Drizzt knock-offs), bar brawls. Didn't they eventually even add an AH (did I make that up?).
If they really didn't care about the game, I don't see why they would have bothered. Would it have been better if they hadn't had a big attack of crazy when they sat down to make their design docs? Yes of course. But given the game they launched with, I think the current game is pretty impressive. Not that it's something that I think I would ever play past the trial. I just like to give credit where it is due.
I don't want to write this, and you don't want to read it. But now it's too late for both of us.
Yeebo; lol
" I think they were crippled by being given sub-par setting, and also by somewhat insane design decisions early on. I appluad them for trying to do something different, but in the end they designed a game that would appeal little to the PnP crowd or the MMO crowd.
I just said something very similar to your paragraph in another thread.
If I'm nuts at least i"m in some company.
I am often ambivalent about DDO but you have to give them some credit for being as original as any investor would probably let them be.
This is where there problem was for me. DDO is a good game I feel. I really enjoy the Eberron setting (I currently read the novels and have the setting book (first D&D setting book I ever bought)), more so then Forgotten Realms and I've played my fair share of games in that setting and read a number of the novels in the setting as well. The game is group focused and it should be. The problem is if you don't have a group it isn't to much fun.
Pick up groups aren't to much fun either. At least they weren't for me. The ones I was in were okay but they blew right through the areas. There never really was any time to explore since people wanted to grind the dungeon to get to the next area. Voice communcation was a problem as well. It got to the point where even though people in the group knew you didn't have a mic they'd start to forget that and start ignoring the chat interface thus alienating other members of the group. So the only other alternative is to solo (glad they gave the option and at least payed attention to things but could have been done a lot better or they could have worked on grouping more) which isn't fun at all when you actually want to group.
If you have a group already set before going into this game it can and will be a lot of fun I think. It would have been nice if you could have hired npcs as group members when you couldn't get groups with other players (ala Guild Wars).