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Why do people try and equate Beta's to released games?
Begin annoyed rant.
I see all these people complaining about how buggy HGL is and then go off on a rant about this or that, but did these people not notice that they are signing onto a BETA server and that the game is not released yet?
I understand stupidity to a certain level, but hell this is beyond me. Beta's are there to test the content within the game and see how it sits with the general public. They also check for bugs, exploits, and hacks that may be present in order to prevent them upon release.
It seems that HGL's beta ran just like I figured a beta would. Find a bug and report it and repeat. The whole reason beta's exist.
I am getting tired about these o it is so buggy posts on every game in beta and it didn't stop with this game either as I see these lists of bugs. Well hell if you didn't report the bug to FSS for them to fix it with the report bug function in beta then WE CAN ALL THANK YOU FOR IT BEING BUGGY for not reporting! If you have reported it; great you understand the beta process and then wait for release before complaining about the issue you reported in beta.
End of annoyed rant.
None the less the game looks pretty good from what i've seen in beta and personally can't wait to see past level 22.
Comments
I guess when a game is still buggy a week from release it starts to concern people . But as we have seen before a lot can be done in the last week before release , usually more than what has been done in the previous months .. so X fingers & have fun playing
General Beta testers aren't playing the latest build as referenced in the link below. They state that the gap can be up to 4 weeks apart from what we see compared to the internal testers
www.hellgatelondon.com/underground/subscribers-and-patch-0
Some people play beta's as a free trial. They dont care about making the game better, they just want it to magically appear complete for them to play for free for a few months.
--------------------
SWG - Killed by $OE
WOW - Retired
Playing WAR
Why do people try and convince others that earth shattering content changes will be forthcoming despite the fact this game has already gone gold and is in the process of being shipped and distributed? Why do people pretend like massive memory leaks, broken class-defining skills (engineer's drones), sound bugs, NPC bugs (frozen leapers) are all going to magically disappear from the release version despite the fact that no further changes can be made to release version until after patch 0?
The issue is not that there are bugs the issue is that the game is releasing while there are still major bugs.
I've played in many beta's and will tell you from experience what you are playing at the end of beta is what you will be playing at release. There will be some last minute clean up and stuff and maybe a couple bug fixes but if there are bugs at the end of beta they will be with us in release. I mean just apply a little common sense if they could get rid of the bugs wouldn't they have done it in the months leading upto release?? Will they really knock it out in the final hour and create that perfect version?
Why would a company release a buggy product to begin with? Because they are being driven by the bean counters pushing to launch while the development staff is saying it isn't ready but at some point the bean counters will usually win...
So before calling people stupid you might want to think a little deeper... What we are playing today is what will be released albeit with one more patch that will add a lot of content but generally be on par with past patches in terms of bug fixes and new bugs created.
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Ethion
Playing MMO's for around 5 years (started with AC) I've come to realize these types of games rarely are ready at launch. Take WoW as an example. The game looked really polished...that is until release where it took a little while to get the server problems under control. I don't see where HGL will be any different. The smart thing to do is to wait to play online until you see the complaining settle down and the devs have a chance to iron things out (at least to an acceptable level).
I think it's an issue of communication.
Beta testers... Erm.. Good Beta testers are active in both the game and on whatever venue the developer has up for testers to comment about the state of the game on. Be that a forum, chat channel, or bug submission process.
Good developers also keep pumping out information on the state of the beta test. What they're hearing about, what they're working on, what to expect in the next build, etc.
As long as both the tester and developer are keeping those lines of communication full with feedback and information, beta tests seem to work out pretty well. This seems pretty simple, but in my experiance, only about half or less of the beta tests that I've participated have had both lines of communication running during the test. Generally, it's the developer side of communication that needs a litle work.
There's also a 10% rule at work in beta tests. By that I mean that out of 100 testers, only 10 are there with the idea that this is a test and that there *should* be issues that need to be resolved. These are the 10 that try alot of different things and then report back on what they find. The other 90 seem to think that a beta test is more like a release candidate. They jump into a beta test, power level the heck out of a single character, and then spend their free time comparing different games in general chat and informing everyone that can read which games they think "suxxors."
-dr
Sethanon
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maybe because the industry definition for "Beta" is:
And I never saw these criterias met in ANY MMO beta I was ... with the exception of WoW
umm last I heard the demo was released. beta is over.
Open betas are a marketing tool mostly. At best they add some stress testing to a platform. That is the sad reality of it and publishers know it.
I received my HGL beta invite after it went gold. It's hard to see anything but a free trial in this case.
The real problem is that MMO companies refuse to hire a proper in-house testing staff and rely on the bug reporting of their "beta" testers to find issues. Truth is, beta testers (particularly open beta) should only find problems that are the result of their machine/driver configurations or some obscure problems that come up during gameplay as a result of following a particular set of actions that could be overlooked by in-house testers.
Since these user beta testers aren't paid professionals, they tend to be a bit upset when the game doesn't run well, particularly when its still not working well with less than a month to release.
Seriously, when a game goes gold it should be 95% complete and relatively bug free (no highs or urgent issues, only mediums and lows.)
LotRO and WOW are two games that managed to fit this criteria pretty close in recent memory, but few others.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Gotta say that this 4 builds behind crap is a smoke screen. IF they had 3 other builds they should be testing them in beta. What are they doing? polishing each build? Letting them sit there doing nothing while they work on a new build? Sorry you make a build start internal testing it and find major bugs/work on new things on another build while you beta test for further bugs. You do not fix say quests in Build A, combat in Build B, performance in build C, and work on new stuff in Build D. You put Build A, B, and C together and test the damn thing. Fix the bugs from that in Build D and move on to new stuff. You don't store up builds, that just reeks of PR.
If you are going to rant on a subject at least pick one where you can at least have a decent supporting argument.
We are a week before release, the latest build is far to laden with bugs to be ready for release. Don't give me that stuff about other builds being in QA, It takes time for QA to certify them, at best we will see one more at release.
When the NDA is lifted that is supposed to tell us the game is ready in it's present state. Will there be a patch before release, most certainly, but I doubt they will patch enough bugs for this game to be passible.
I have no idea how the single player plays, but the multiplayer needs another two months in beta. So everyone that buys it on Halloween can expect bugs and often if you play multiplayer.
Anyone plunking down a monthly fee for multiplayer needs to have their head examined. Rewarding a developer for a buggy design is just dumb.
If you find a game that is perfect on release let me know as it has never happened (or even come close to what it was 6months down the line after release. Changes happen)
If you find a game that is perfect on release let me know as it has never happened (or even come close to what it was 6months down the line after release. Changes happen)
Why don't you go ahead and list the successful major MMO's that released with a memory leak that causes desktop crashes every 20 minutes. Why don't you go ahead and list the triple revenue stream MMO's (retail sales, advertisement, subscription) that are out their with major game stopping bugs? With nonfunctioning major class features (ever watch your drone fire at a wall for 5 mins? ever watch your drone eat a Hera's Lance after the devs assure you that particular bug has been squashed?). Better yet, why don't we quit making excuses for companies like EA who have become the pimps of the gaming world, whoring out whatever intellectual properties they can with no concern whatsoever to quality or customer satisfaction, only to turning the quickest buck possible.
If you find a game that is perfect on release let me know as it has never happened (or even come close to what it was 6months down the line after release. Changes happen)
Why don't you go ahead and list the successful major MMO's that released with a memory leak that causes desktop crashes every 20 minutes. Why don't you go ahead and list the triple revenue stream MMO's (retail sales, advertisement, subscription) that are out their with major game stopping bugs? With nonfunctioning major class features (ever watch your drone fire at a wall for 5 mins? ever watch your drone eat a Hera's Lance after the devs assure you that particular bug has been squashed?). Better yet, why don't we quit making excuses for companies like EA who have become the pimps of the gaming world, whoring out whatever intellectual properties they can with no concern whatsoever to quality or customer satisfaction, only to turning the quickest buck possible.
WoW had a terrible memory leak until 1 month after release. Blizzard is their own advertisement. (So right there is a 3fer you wanted) but wait theres a 4th CARDS. While not a bug it was planned the unbalancing of alliance to horde was an incredibly unbalanced piece of crap rectified 2 years after release.
SOE has a similar model for advertisement. (Along with EQ2 needed to have emergency server upgrades its first couple of weeks for stability).
Horizons had its login servers crash the first 2 months of release making it a crap shoot if you were able to even log on that day.
Companies who can't deal with the amount of bugs and issues with the game such as RF and Archlord simply release them as F2P games opening item shops hoping to draw back some money. (While originally Archlord was opening up as a pay to play game along with an item shop, along with advertising all over their website for outsourced sales).
Lineage 2 still has terrible bot/hacker issues that have never cleared up since release.
Ultima Online had random black holes for the first 2 years of production sometimes causing your character to become locked and getting a GM to teleport you from your current position to fix it.
SWG the first 3 weeks no mob had terrain negotiation meaning anything was killable if you walked up a tiny hill because it couldn't follow you.
Lord of the rings had random disconnects with a terrible lag issues 1 week prior to release and then actually had it fixed 1 day prior to release (Gotta say kudos to turbine on that one as it could of really collapsed the game).
TR is releasing with far to many bugs to mention.
How many more games do I need to post? Let alone the exploits present in every game listed.
You have to be realistic about the gaming community and their expectations of games. If you expect a perfect game you will be nothing but disappointed each and every day a release comes around for any game as humans code and humans make errors. Deal with it.
{Mod Edit}
I disagree with the OP, if its a week from release, and there are Major bugs in Beta i'd like to know before buying. I can wait a month and see what people say, then purchase if i feel inclined.
Kazer
"Baning Smokers from public places is like baning people from water who like to pee."
WoW had a terrible memory leak until 1 month after release.
This is a lie. I played from beta 3 until october of this year. There was no major memory leak causing crashes every 20 minutes when WoW was released.
Blizzard is their own advertisement. (So right there is a 3fer you wanted)
Another lie or ignorance on your part. Blizzard does not have 3rd party advertisements in WoW, none. I have yet to see an Nvidia billboard in WoW, why don't you go ahead and post a screenshot?
but wait theres a 4th CARDS.
Another misleading statement from you (kind of a habit, isn't it?). You do not have to purchase any of the cards to have access to all the features of WoW. As a matter of fact, those ultra rare cards offer ZERO in game benefits, just bragging rights.
While not a bug it was planned the unbalancing of alliance to horde was an incredibly unbalanced piece of crap rectified 2 years after release.
Really reaching now, aren't you? game balance does not equal buggy code. I can't believe you'd be desperate enough to even try to claim malfunctioning computer code is the same as your perceived class imbalances.
SOE has a similar model for advertisement. (Along with EQ2 needed to have emergency server upgrades its first couple of weeks for stability).
Liar. I played EQ from beta until 2004. I played it for a couple months this summer, once again... neither EQ1 or 2 had Nvidia billboards anywhere in their landscape.
Horizons had its login servers crash the first 2 months of release making it a crap shoot if you were able to even log on that day.
Horizon's is a crap game with zero playerbase who has sent 2 companies into bankruptcy. Is this the type of game you honestly want to compare HG:L to?
Companies who can't deal with the amount of bugs and issues with the game such as RF and Archlord simply release them as F2P games opening item shops hoping to draw back some money. (While originally Archlord was opening up as a pay to play game along with an item shop, along with advertising all over their website for outsourced sales).
You realize, HG:L is not releasing this as a F2P product, so this particular statement is utterly pointless.
Lineage 2 still has terrible bot/hacker issues that have never cleared up since release.
How is this pertinent? bots and hacks will exist as long as scumbags exist. I give HG:L 3 months before the first hack comes out.
Ultima Online had random black holes for the first 2 years of production sometimes causing yquoteour character to become locked and getting a GM to teleport you from your current position to fix it.
UO broke new ground from a technological standpoint. It was the first of it's kind, naturally there were problems. Why don't you go ahead and tell us what groundbreaking changes to online gameplay HG:L offers?
SWG the first 3 weeks no mob had terrain negotiation meaning anything was killable if you walked up a tiny hill because it couldn't follow you.
Yeah, mob exploits... Same exact thing as CRASHING TO DESKTOP EVERY 20 MINUTES! I cringe in sympathy for those who are subjected to your brand of logic on a daily basis.
Lord of the rings had random disconnects with a terrible lag issues 1 week prior to release and then actually had it fixed 1 day prior to release (Gotta say kudos to turbine on that one as it could of really collapsed the game).
Hey, great. A company that did things right. Surprise, it's not FSS. Now, show some evidence that FSS has even acknowledged the CTD issues.
TR is releasing with far to many bugs to mention.
So, why aren't you buying it? Isn't that how you operate, you buy buggy software, pay a monthly fee, and hope things get fixed sometime in the future?
How many more games do I need to post? Let alone the exploits present in every game listed.
You didn't have to post a single game. That was your failed attempt to obfuscate the glaring problems with HG:L.
[You have to be realistic about the gaming community and their expectations of games. If you expect a perfect game you will be nothing but disappointed each and every day a release comes around for any game as humans code and humans make errors. Deal with it.
No, what I've come to expect is fanbois with absolutely no standards who will gladly gobble down any garbage EA shovels down their throat without any need for quality or standards. A game that CRASHES TO DESKTOP EVERY 20 MINUTES is not only "not perfect", it's broken. Maybe life has taught you to have low expectations, but I have standards and I'm not about to pay $50 for some broken, adware riddled, derivative piece of garbage. Deal with it.
No offense MortisRex, if the game pisses you off this much, just move to another new release, unless you just like to bitch and debate. Now since I own a few EA games so I guess I am considered a fanboi, but thats ok. I own alot of EA games on my Xbox 360 and PC. Heck I been buying EA games since the earlier 90s for my Sega Genesis.
There is a base of people that dislike EA, but they are not as large as the disgruntle SOE players let me tell you that. If you dont like EA or SOE there are so many other companys to choose a game from.
I am enjoying HG: L so far, as the devs stated, the version we are playing on the BETA servers are like 2 weeks behind on what they are working with. And so far the game is running great at this point, I still get stuck in some obstacles in the game and hopefully this gets looked at. But all in all, I am not getting anymore memory leaks and I betcha they have taken out there Debug program which has increased the games proficiency now.
Ummm yeah there was. I played from the day it came out and by far the biggest complaint were the constant crashes. Not sure what game you played but it was a huge problem.
{Mod Edit}
If anyone is running the 2007 edition of Pc-Cillin you will crash a LOT. I've been reading some forums recently saying that with the way one of the modules loads it has a hard time keeping up with packets and will just crash. This is a Trend-Micro issue people have had issues with tons of games.
You can not just dissable it. You have to prevent it from running at the start of your system with services.
No offense taken. However, why should my opinon and thoughts be viewed as any less valid considering I've actually beta tested the game for the past month, have given constant feedback and provided numerous bug reports? I'm glad you're enjoying yourself. I'm glad you've not had the problems that myself and many others are experiencing, that doesn't mean the problems don't exist. Go ahead and check the bug report forums and you'll see that I'm not making any of this up. I realize that I'm in the minority of people that has concerns over EA and it's 3rd party advertisers having access "without limitations" (direct EULA quote) to my system, the programs I'm running, and the peripherals I have installed and using it to force advertisements down my throat in an attempt to further cash in on me after they've already received a retail purchase and monthly subscriptions fees from me. However, that doesn't make it any less a disturbing direction for gaming companies to generate revenue (using application software to data mine for 3rd party vendors).
I pay for cable box. I pay per month for cable. They market on my cable box.
It is the progression of the MMo regardless of how you look at it. No I did not go and read your post history Mortis. I figured by your glaring love for WoW within the post in this thread you were. It is glaringly obvious.
I digress though. Yes I do think companies should be held accountable for their bugs and yes I expect that they fix them, but I am not blinded by stupidity to think that a game is going to be released with no bugs. Hell even the first gen MMo's still have bugs (well over 10 years to fix them or 8 in the case of EQ).
None the less bugs exist. The crashing issue is VISTA client based with the DX10 setup which has been stated multiple times on the hellgate forums. They have recently patched the DX10 file setup which fixes the issues around DX10, but not other vista issues. Multi platforming a game is tough to do.
I refuse to degrade myself to your level Mortis, but you have ideals that won't happen. Advertising in game is going to happen. EA just happened to be first to jump on it (Well just look at all the Madden series). If it was an issue don't play the game and stop trolling.