I used to live in Korea (born and raised) and their look on MMORPG is definitely different than here in America. For us... at least people who argue how bad Korean MMO's are do not like the whole "grind" system, which you see people playing WoW or something like that. Koreans are hardcore people..... they love to be the "top" and the whole crazy things. There are people who live in internet cafe's living everyday playing the game Anyway, my point is.... Korean games are USUALLY grind..... because if they aren't, they usually don't last very long. If you can never reach the top... or the best level... or the best enchanted weapon... people keep playing, as long as they are hardcore about it.
Another thing you guys should know.... the American NCSoft is not as "high speed" than of the Korean NCsoft... period. This usually reflects upon admin's running the thing. If Koreans see something wrong in the game and bring out the problems... and admins don't do anything about it, the word gets spread in a second... then they literally go up to NCSoft to talk to the people there. I don't see that happening here, hence a little more relaxed = a lot of shit going through (ex. bots)
Also, who knows when they're going to actually let people "fly". Lineage 2... Haven't seen the dragon flying... and they talked about that in what... close/open beta? You would have to be UBER to fly I would think once again.... and who knows when they're actually going to implement it into the game.
These little things are there to catch people's attention. Hell you we all want to fly and stuff.... the thing is, you're either have to be a really high level or have a lot of cash... or both... which we all strive for in the game = keeping us in the game lol.
I quit playing MMO's for this reason... there's no ending... and that's the beauty of it and I get addicted way too easily lol. Aion does seem awesome (haven't visited this site in a while) and I'd love to play... but I don't want to risk it taking over my life lol.
Yeah getting a wyvern on Lineage2 is extremely hard work.
But if you do some short research (which mmorpg.com users suck at) you will find that that everybody will be able to fly in Aion once they become daevas, at level 10.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
What's up, guys? This thread looks interesting, to say the least. For the more optimistic among you, if you're genuinely interested in AION: The Tower of Eternity, check out AionSource.com for more info. If you think AION's gonna flop, then don't waste your time visiting. There's better places for you pessimists/self-proclaimed realists to hang out: not AionSource.com. I'll see the rest of you there!
For me its clear this game is going to be my next big MMORPG in 2008... Age of Conan, WAR all nice... but the great grahpics and animation style of this game... focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.
Also this is the first time that NCSoft plans to release the game in snychronisation with korea for europeans as well as americans! So this time they are working together strong with the western market which is a great thing...
I for one at least CANT wait to play it...!! Just look at some movies to get a glimpse of the detailed world and characters.
Currently playing: Archeage Waiting for: Black Desert
It's amazing how many people believe that "new and more" is ALWAYS better, when they miss the whole point about "doing what you know, and doing what works best." It's a given that there can only be so much more innovation and new content to MMORPG's, but if it were any different than the formula they already have, they wouldn't be called MMO's anymore. I'm sure Aion, just as well as other upcoming MMO's, will play the same way as previous MMO's, with a few differences here and there, for the better or worse, but it all comes down to the individual's likes and dislikes. In my opinion, Aion will exceed my standards and improve on the formula I know and love.
focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.
Ok well I hope this game turns out really nice to but could you please show me where it's been said this game is focused on no grinding?
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension? No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.
Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.
Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:
3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them. 15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being just another grinder? The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPGs have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, its not an option to make just another grinder. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system. [aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you. As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks. The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true. There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!" I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything. Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman. P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
Okay. But did you back your argument up, as was asked for? If you don't believe what the developers state about their game, you evidently believe what they say is untrue, ergo lies. But why are the developers 'lying'? I mean, lying works great for the credibility of a company the size of NCsoft. Why would they care? They just have like 10 other major products to keep a reputation for. It's as if Intel would lie about the specifications of their new chipset and hope nobody notices when it's released. That's obviously laughable.
No - What I just saw was a pointless attack on his person. And what i saw erlier were pointless and groundless attacks on the game. Even when you say yourself we have to wait until release to judge.
US players don't want another grind-a-thon MMO with lack luster features/content that Korean devs are famous for period.
That's just annoying. You make it sound as if Aion is heading that way. Take a look at the game (interviews, presentations, demonstrations) instead, to be enlightened. From what I have seen, the risk is equal or larger for "western games" in development (even tho i hate generalization) to become "grinders".
Money talks a and BS walks. Until they release and prove that it's "Not Yet Another Asian Grind MMO." it won't mean anything. So far Korean developers have not proven they can break out of the stereotype they themselves built in regards to MMO design. As for L2 well..Again you can hype it up all you want but L2 was not and is not what US players want in a MMO. Numbers speak volumes as to what U.S. players want and are looking for period. Asian MMO Grind-o-thon's never do well in the U.S. and that is just a fact.
No, it's not a fact becuase unfortunatly you didn't check if your facts were right. Maple Story, Silkroad, Final Fantasy XI andLineage 2 have all done well and better than many western MMORPG's. They also have proven they can get out of the common stereotype but again this is a lack of knowledge on your part.
Take away the Asian market and the F2P games with item malls and what do you have? Sorry your point is moot and irrelevant. Again strictly speaking about the US Pay2Play MMO market Asian MMO's have never dominated or done all that great in the U.S. The dominate MMO's in the us have been EQ1 and WoW with Daoc and EQ2 being considered runner up's. FXII and L2 in the U.S. were never popular and I could care two turds about how they did in the Asian market. For Aion to penetrate and do will into the U.S. market they will need to drop their Korean MMO habits or else face the grave yard of Asian MMO's that failed and/or did poorly over the long haul.
Final Fantasy XI had over 600k subscribers at it's peak time, considering the popularity of Final Fantasy XI and the fact Japan isn't the largest MMO country in the world, it's very safe to assume that Final Fantasy XI had around 200k ~ 300k subscribers in the west, which would rank it right up there with Dark age of Camelot and Everquest 2. Lineage 2 has around 100k ~ 120k subscribers in the US and it's subscriber base doesn't seem to be dropping over the years, which is more than can be said about many western MMORPG's.
Again am I am talking about U.S. numbers here. The Western market also includes Europe and the Aussies but strictly speaking the U.S. numbers were never that great compared to other well established US based MMO's period as I stated. EQ1 had around 1 million US players at it's hieght and DAOC reached around 500,000 so FXII never really had that great of a following in the West period in relation to other US based MMO's.
Also separate the Euro and Aussie subscribers from your remark and you'll see your comment in a whole different light. US numbers for FXII once you take out European subs and Aussie subs were not that great overall compared to other US based MMO's.
L2 at one time had 100k-120k I'll grant you that but those were in the hey day when it first launched. US numbers now I'd wager are no where near the 100k mark period. I'd like to see where you got those numbers anyways to see if they have not just lumped in Aussie and European subscribers into the US stats.
Even now though those numbers are meaningless because FXII and L2 have all taken huge hits from American MMO's. U.S. players have grown bored of the Korean grinders and bots that infest them. The majority of U.S. players who once played those games have long since moved onto other MMO's and only the hardcore players remain. These being people who have invested to much time to call it quits.
It's obvious you did not do your research. Everquest peaked at around 550k subscribers not 1 million, and Dark age of camelot peaked at around 250k subscribers, not 500k.
Asian MMO's have not taken huge hits from American MMO's, they have taken hit from one American MMO. A vast majority of mmo players moved on to WoW, not just from asian games but also from DaoC, EQ, EQ2, SWG etc etc. Lineage 2 is currently doing quite well with over 120k subscribers (considering there are only 2 european servers, it's safe to say about 90k ~ 100k is doing in the US). This means it's currently outperforming many western MMO's.
www.mmogchart.com
As you can see it's not just asian, but most western MMORPG's took a hit after the release of WoW.
That chart is very out of date and incorrect. Sorry but the site where you got that chart from has been known for its inaccurate data collecting methods because a lot of MMO's don't even release their numbers to the public like SOE. In fact many people who have investigated the site have pointed out that the author of that specific website in most cases is just taking a guess at the numbers he lists for some MMO's because as I said some MMO's don't list their subs or have different methods of counting/collecting sub information. In other words there is no consistency and reliable method of data collecting sub numbers for many MMO's and in the end at best it's just guesstimate analysis of MMO sub numbers.
Admit you just grabbed that chart just because it's on the internet and you think people believe everything they read/see on the internet didn't you?
im sorry but...don't you get your information from the internet, as well, or do you work at all of these places?
focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.
Ok well I hope this game turns out really nice to but could you please show me where it's been said this game is focused on no grinding?
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
Hmm I don't find the interview anymore. All I know is that in one of the korean translated interviews they mentioned that they tried to remove most repetitive tasks as much as possible.
Thats also why there is a complete main storyline with cinematics etc. during the game which drives you forward (kinda like FFXI !?). However at the moment the leveling and instances are still a bit solo oriented, but they said group and guild content will be added later.
Kind regards,
LD
Currently playing: Archeage Waiting for: Black Desert
focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.
Ok well I hope this game turns out really nice to but could you please show me where it's been said this game is focused on no grinding?
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
Hmm I don't find the interview anymore. All I know is that in one of the korean translated interviews they mentioned that they tried to remove most repetitive tasks as much as possible.
Thats also why there is a complete main storyline with cinematics etc. during the game which drives you forward (kinda like FFXI !?). However at the moment the leveling and instances are still a bit solo oriented, but they said group and guild content will be added later.
Kind regards,
LD
I think theres going to be plenty of group content at launch, sort of. What I read is that more guild oriented activities would be added later (since its an RvR game at heart)
There will be options for leveling, you can hunt mobs and/or do quests. The 'grind' will be intergrated with the story line and not apart from it like other asian grinders. When you progress through the story and do these quests you'll end up just leveling at the same time. At least that's the impression I get. There's going to be lots of solo content and group quests and dungeons.
How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.
Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.
Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:
3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.
15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?
The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.
As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.
The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.
There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"
I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.
Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I'm sorry, is it too difficult to read my posts?
"any more of a mindless grind than"
I'm not saying it isn't a grind, I'm saying it's n ot anymore for a grind.
the "hype" is all based on the developers words who claim there is no grind, so saying you don't believe it is saying you don't believe the words of the developers which is the same thing as accusing them of lying.
How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension? No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.
Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.
Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers: 3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them. 15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being just another grinder? The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPGs have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, its not an option to make just another grinder. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system. [aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you. As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks. The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true. There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!" I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything. Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman. P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I'm sorry, is it too difficult to read my posts? "any more of a mindless grind than" I'm not saying it isn't a grind, I'm saying it's n ot anymore for a grind. the "hype" is all based on the developers words who claim there is no grind, so saying you don't believe it is saying you don't believe the words of the developers which is the same thing as accusing them of lying.
No it means that I won't take their word on their interpretation of what "no-grinding" means. I know it's hard for a child like you to understand. There is a big difference between not accepting someone's word until it meets your expectations/criteria vs calling someone a flat out liar who went out of their way to deceive you.
Once you finally graduate from middle-school you'll understand the difference. Oh and you can deflect and call me a troll all you want Gameloading but all it does is just proves to me that you have no argument and thus must default to childish name calling.
Anti-Fanboi, you don't seem to realize that people have already played the Korean closed beta, and everyone that posted a review has claimed that it is easy to learn, and you level fast. Of course, i believe they only have the level cap at about 20 right now, but I can't imagine it going insane up to level 50 from there. It was also mentioned by a couple people that level 1-10 (cap for the first beta weekend) only took a couple of hours. Compare that to other Korean MMOs, such as lineage or FFXI and you'll know that isn't bad. Not to mention that the level cap is 50, as opposed to 80 on L2, 75 on FFXI, and 70 (soon to be 80) on WoW.
Of course, there is also the possibility of a PvP grind, but honestly it can't be much worse than WoW, which you seem to think is the best MMO out there. About a year after the release of WoW, everyone stopped doing PvP for fun. Now it has become a big grind to get gear, which gets outdated in a single patch, making you grind some more.
And please don't tell me the Korean's opinions don't count, because that would simply be stereotypical and partially racist. Just because they're in Korea doesn't mean they've all become grind-whores.
I could pull up some of these reviews, but atm i don't really feel like it. However, if you want to see them I could go and find them. I really think you're being a bit of a hypocrite too. You try to tell people that they can't say there's no grind until its released, but you wont seem to let up on the fact that it is *probably* going to be "another asian grinder". I'm not sure how much you know about the game, but if you're like me, Cynthe, or Mark and you are on Aionsource every day getting news from Korea (we have a member to translate), you'd realize that alot of what you're saying simply isn't true.
That said, I don't really wanna start a big quote war with you, so i'll try to be kind in any reply I give to you after this
Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.
Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.
Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:
3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.
15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?
The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.
As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.
The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.
There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"
I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.
Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I'm sorry, is it too difficult to read my posts?
"any more of a mindless grind than"
I'm not saying it isn't a grind, I'm saying it's n ot anymore for a grind.
the "hype" is all based on the developers words who claim there is no grind, so saying you don't believe it is saying you don't believe the words of the developers which is the same thing as accusing them of lying.
No it means that I won't take their word on their interpretation of what "no-grinding" means. I know it's hard for a child like you to understand. There is a big difference between not accepting someone's word until it meets your expectations/criteria vs calling someone a flat out liar who went out of their way to deceive you.
Once you finally graduate from middle-school you'll understand the difference. Oh and you can deflect and call me a troll all you want Gameloading but all it does is just proves to me that you have no argument and thus must default to childish name calling.
Unfortunatly your arguement still doesn't hold any water, because your entire arguement has been that you don't believe it just because it's asian. Developers have stated that they are trying to NOT have a grind like that. Haven't you noticed that you actually brought nothing at all to this discussion? Seriously, nothing at all. The only thing you mentioned is the beaten to death asian stereotype, I have to wonder, why are you even posting? you have no arguement, while I have information from the people actually developing the game which I can show you anytime you want to. You don't seem to understand that when you have a discussion you have to bring something that at least supports your point..and you have done nothing. You have used stereotyping (which is fault by default) and your own assumptions...that's it. The developers have been very clear what the design philosophy is, what kind of things they want to avoid and what kind of game they want to build
Did anyone watch those Ken Choi mini interviews?? They're awesome and much recommended to people all new to Aion, basically all your burning questions are already answered right there. And if you can't believe the ultimate zenness of Mr Choi, I don't think there's any hope lol.
It must be hard to make a interesting game sound as boring as he does . NCSoft could use a guy like Paul Barnett, he makes Warhammer online sound really awesome even though I'm not into it at all.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
He may not be the liviest person, but at least he makes things pretty darn clear. Those videos also null every excuse that 'we don't know anything about Aion ect...'
Comments
This is coming from me....
I used to live in Korea (born and raised) and their look on MMORPG is definitely different than here in America. For us... at least people who argue how bad Korean MMO's are do not like the whole "grind" system, which you see people playing WoW or something like that. Koreans are hardcore people..... they love to be the "top" and the whole crazy things. There are people who live in internet cafe's living everyday playing the game
Anyway, my point is.... Korean games are USUALLY grind..... because if they aren't, they usually don't last very long. If you can never reach the top... or the best level... or the best enchanted weapon... people keep playing, as long as they are hardcore about it.
Another thing you guys should know.... the American NCSoft is not as "high speed" than of the Korean NCsoft... period. This usually reflects upon admin's running the thing. If Koreans see something wrong in the game and bring out the problems... and admins don't do anything about it, the word gets spread in a second... then they literally go up to NCSoft to talk to the people there. I don't see that happening here, hence a little more relaxed = a lot of shit going through (ex. bots)
Also, who knows when they're going to actually let people "fly". Lineage 2... Haven't seen the dragon flying... and they talked about that in what... close/open beta? You would have to be UBER to fly I would think once again.... and who knows when they're actually going to implement it into the game.
These little things are there to catch people's attention. Hell you we all want to fly and stuff.... the thing is, you're either have to be a really high level or have a lot of cash... or both... which we all strive for in the game = keeping us in the game lol.
I quit playing MMO's for this reason... there's no ending... and that's the beauty of it and I get addicted way too easily lol. Aion does seem awesome (haven't visited this site in a while) and I'd love to play... but I don't want to risk it taking over my life lol.
Yeah getting a wyvern on Lineage2 is extremely hard work.
But if you do some short research (which mmorpg.com users suck at) you will find that that everybody will be able to fly in Aion once they become daevas, at level 10.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
What's up, guys? This thread looks interesting, to say the least. For the more optimistic among you, if you're genuinely interested in AION: The Tower of Eternity, check out AionSource.com for more info. If you think AION's gonna flop, then don't waste your time visiting. There's better places for you pessimists/self-proclaimed realists to hang out: not AionSource.com. I'll see the rest of you there!
ArcheAgeSource.com
For me its clear this game is going to be my next big MMORPG in 2008... Age of Conan, WAR all nice... but the great grahpics and animation style of this game... focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.
Also this is the first time that NCSoft plans to release the game in snychronisation with korea for europeans as well as americans! So this time they are working together strong with the western market which is a great thing...
I for one at least CANT wait to play it...!! Just look at some movies to get a glimpse of the detailed world and characters.
Currently playing: Archeage
Waiting for: Black Desert
It's amazing how many people believe that "new and more" is ALWAYS better, when they miss the whole point about "doing what you know, and doing what works best." It's a given that there can only be so much more innovation and new content to MMORPG's, but if it were any different than the formula they already have, they wouldn't be called MMO's anymore. I'm sure Aion, just as well as other upcoming MMO's, will play the same way as previous MMO's, with a few differences here and there, for the better or worse, but it all comes down to the individual's likes and dislikes. In my opinion, Aion will exceed my standards and improve on the formula I know and love.
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
Okay. But did you back your argument up, as was asked for? If you don't believe what the developers state about their game, you evidently believe what they say is untrue, ergo lies. But why are the developers 'lying'? I mean, lying works great for the credibility of a company the size of NCsoft. Why would they care? They just have like 10 other major products to keep a reputation for. It's as if Intel would lie about the specifications of their new chipset and hope nobody notices when it's released. That's obviously laughable.
No - What I just saw was a pointless attack on his person. And what i saw erlier were pointless and groundless attacks on the game. Even when you say yourself we have to wait until release to judge.
Edited for readability.
Money talks a and BS walks. Until they release and prove that it's "Not Yet Another Asian Grind MMO." it won't mean anything. So far Korean developers have not proven they can break out of the stereotype they themselves built in regards to MMO design. As for L2 well..Again you can hype it up all you want but L2 was not and is not what US players want in a MMO. Numbers speak volumes as to what U.S. players want and are looking for period. Asian MMO Grind-o-thon's never do well in the U.S. and that is just a fact.
No, it's not a fact becuase unfortunatly you didn't check if your facts were right. Maple Story, Silkroad, Final Fantasy XI andLineage 2 have all done well and better than many western MMORPG's. They also have proven they can get out of the common stereotype but again this is a lack of knowledge on your part.
Take away the Asian market and the F2P games with item malls and what do you have? Sorry your point is moot and irrelevant. Again strictly speaking about the US Pay2Play MMO market Asian MMO's have never dominated or done all that great in the U.S. The dominate MMO's in the us have been EQ1 and WoW with Daoc and EQ2 being considered runner up's. FXII and L2 in the U.S. were never popular and I could care two turds about how they did in the Asian market. For Aion to penetrate and do will into the U.S. market they will need to drop their Korean MMO habits or else face the grave yard of Asian MMO's that failed and/or did poorly over the long haul.
Final Fantasy XI had over 600k subscribers at it's peak time, considering the popularity of Final Fantasy XI and the fact Japan isn't the largest MMO country in the world, it's very safe to assume that Final Fantasy XI had around 200k ~ 300k subscribers in the west, which would rank it right up there with Dark age of Camelot and Everquest 2. Lineage 2 has around 100k ~ 120k subscribers in the US and it's subscriber base doesn't seem to be dropping over the years, which is more than can be said about many western MMORPG's.
Again am I am talking about U.S. numbers here. The Western market also includes Europe and the Aussies but strictly speaking the U.S. numbers were never that great compared to other well established US based MMO's period as I stated. EQ1 had around 1 million US players at it's hieght and DAOC reached around 500,000 so FXII never really had that great of a following in the West period in relation to other US based MMO's.
Also separate the Euro and Aussie subscribers from your remark and you'll see your comment in a whole different light. US numbers for FXII once you take out European subs and Aussie subs were not that great overall compared to other US based MMO's.
L2 at one time had 100k-120k I'll grant you that but those were in the hey day when it first launched. US numbers now I'd wager are no where near the 100k mark period. I'd like to see where you got those numbers anyways to see if they have not just lumped in Aussie and European subscribers into the US stats.
Even now though those numbers are meaningless because FXII and L2 have all taken huge hits from American MMO's. U.S. players have grown bored of the Korean grinders and bots that infest them. The majority of U.S. players who once played those games have long since moved onto other MMO's and only the hardcore players remain. These being people who have invested to much time to call it quits.
It's obvious you did not do your research. Everquest peaked at around 550k subscribers not 1 million, and Dark age of camelot peaked at around 250k subscribers, not 500k.
Asian MMO's have not taken huge hits from American MMO's, they have taken hit from one American MMO. A vast majority of mmo players moved on to WoW, not just from asian games but also from DaoC, EQ, EQ2, SWG etc etc. Lineage 2 is currently doing quite well with over 120k subscribers (considering there are only 2 european servers, it's safe to say about 90k ~ 100k is doing in the US). This means it's currently outperforming many western MMO's.
www.mmogchart.com
As you can see it's not just asian, but most western MMORPG's took a hit after the release of WoW.
That chart is very out of date and incorrect. Sorry but the site where you got that chart from has been known for its inaccurate data collecting methods because a lot of MMO's don't even release their numbers to the public like SOE. In fact many people who have investigated the site have pointed out that the author of that specific website in most cases is just taking a guess at the numbers he lists for some MMO's because as I said some MMO's don't list their subs or have different methods of counting/collecting sub information. In other words there is no consistency and reliable method of data collecting sub numbers for many MMO's and in the end at best it's just guesstimate analysis of MMO sub numbers.
Admit you just grabbed that chart just because it's on the internet and you think people believe everything they read/see on the internet didn't you?
im sorry but...don't you get your information from the internet, as well, or do you work at all of these places?
This quoting crap each time is getting ridicoulous.
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
Hmm I don't find the interview anymore. All I know is that in one of the korean translated interviews they mentioned that they tried to remove most repetitive tasks as much as possible.
Thats also why there is a complete main storyline with cinematics etc. during the game which drives you forward (kinda like FFXI !?). However at the moment the leveling and instances are still a bit solo oriented, but they said group and guild content will be added later.
Kind regards,
LD
Currently playing: Archeage
Waiting for: Black Desert
From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.
Hmm I don't find the interview anymore. All I know is that in one of the korean translated interviews they mentioned that they tried to remove most repetitive tasks as much as possible.
Thats also why there is a complete main storyline with cinematics etc. during the game which drives you forward (kinda like FFXI !?). However at the moment the leveling and instances are still a bit solo oriented, but they said group and guild content will be added later.
Kind regards,
LD
I think theres going to be plenty of group content at launch, sort of. What I read is that more guild oriented activities would be added later (since its an RvR game at heart)
There will be options for leveling, you can hunt mobs and/or do quests. The 'grind' will be intergrated with the story line and not apart from it like other asian grinders. When you progress through the story and do these quests you'll end up just leveling at the same time. At least that's the impression I get. There's going to be lots of solo content and group quests and dungeons.
Here's some Ken Choi goodness:
youtube.com/watch
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:
3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.
15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?
The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.
As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.
The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.
There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"
I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.
Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I'm sorry, is it too difficult to read my posts?"any more of a mindless grind than"
I'm not saying it isn't a grind, I'm saying it's n ot anymore for a grind.
the "hype" is all based on the developers words who claim there is no grind, so saying you don't believe it is saying you don't believe the words of the developers which is the same thing as accusing them of lying.
Stop feeding the troll darn it, he doesn't even have a clue what he's babbling about.
Okay.
No it means that I won't take their word on their interpretation of what "no-grinding" means. I know it's hard for a child like you to understand. There is a big difference between not accepting someone's word until it meets your expectations/criteria vs calling someone a flat out liar who went out of their way to deceive you.
Once you finally graduate from middle-school you'll understand the difference. Oh and you can deflect and call me a troll all you want Gameloading but all it does is just proves to me that you have no argument and thus must default to childish name calling.
Anti-Fanboi, you don't seem to realize that people have already played the Korean closed beta, and everyone that posted a review has claimed that it is easy to learn, and you level fast. Of course, i believe they only have the level cap at about 20 right now, but I can't imagine it going insane up to level 50 from there. It was also mentioned by a couple people that level 1-10 (cap for the first beta weekend) only took a couple of hours. Compare that to other Korean MMOs, such as lineage or FFXI and you'll know that isn't bad. Not to mention that the level cap is 50, as opposed to 80 on L2, 75 on FFXI, and 70 (soon to be 80) on WoW.
Of course, there is also the possibility of a PvP grind, but honestly it can't be much worse than WoW, which you seem to think is the best MMO out there. About a year after the release of WoW, everyone stopped doing PvP for fun. Now it has become a big grind to get gear, which gets outdated in a single patch, making you grind some more.
And please don't tell me the Korean's opinions don't count, because that would simply be stereotypical and partially racist. Just because they're in Korea doesn't mean they've all become grind-whores.
I could pull up some of these reviews, but atm i don't really feel like it. However, if you want to see them I could go and find them. I really think you're being a bit of a hypocrite too. You try to tell people that they can't say there's no grind until its released, but you wont seem to let up on the fact that it is *probably* going to be "another asian grinder". I'm not sure how much you know about the game, but if you're like me, Cynthe, or Mark and you are on Aionsource every day getting news from Korea (we have a member to translate), you'd realize that alot of what you're saying simply isn't true.
That said, I don't really wanna start a big quote war with you, so i'll try to be kind in any reply I give to you after this
Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:
3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?
We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.
15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?
The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]
Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.
As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.
The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.
There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.
Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"
I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.
Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".
I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.
P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.
I'm sorry, is it too difficult to read my posts?
"any more of a mindless grind than"
I'm not saying it isn't a grind, I'm saying it's n ot anymore for a grind.
the "hype" is all based on the developers words who claim there is no grind, so saying you don't believe it is saying you don't believe the words of the developers which is the same thing as accusing them of lying.
No it means that I won't take their word on their interpretation of what "no-grinding" means. I know it's hard for a child like you to understand. There is a big difference between not accepting someone's word until it meets your expectations/criteria vs calling someone a flat out liar who went out of their way to deceive you.
Once you finally graduate from middle-school you'll understand the difference. Oh and you can deflect and call me a troll all you want Gameloading but all it does is just proves to me that you have no argument and thus must default to childish name calling.
Unfortunatly your arguement still doesn't hold any water, because your entire arguement has been that you don't believe it just because it's asian. Developers have stated that they are trying to NOT have a grind like that. Haven't you noticed that you actually brought nothing at all to this discussion? Seriously, nothing at all. The only thing you mentioned is the beaten to death asian stereotype, I have to wonder, why are you even posting? you have no arguement, while I have information from the people actually developing the game which I can show you anytime you want to. You don't seem to understand that when you have a discussion you have to bring something that at least supports your point..and you have done nothing. You have used stereotyping (which is fault by default) and your own assumptions...that's it. The developers have been very clear what the design philosophy is, what kind of things they want to avoid and what kind of game they want to build
And I did graduate school, thanks.
Did anyone watch those Ken Choi mini interviews?? They're awesome and much recommended to people all new to Aion, basically all your burning questions are already answered right there. And if you can't believe the ultimate zenness of Mr Choi, I don't think there's any hope lol.
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Ken "the sleeping pill" Choi
It must be hard to make a interesting game sound as boring as he does
. NCSoft could use a guy like Paul Barnett, he makes Warhammer online sound really awesome even though I'm not into it at all.
"If I had a d*ck, I'd go get laid. But we can do that next best thing... Let's kill people."
He may not be the liviest person, but at least he makes things pretty darn clear. Those videos also null every excuse that 'we don't know anything about Aion ect...'
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)