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Solution for people who hate levels
Hexxeity
Member Posts: 848
How do you suppose this sort of game would pan out?
As you level up, you do not gain base Health or base Mana/Energy/whatever. Your abilities do not do more base damage. What you gain is variety in your abilities, allowing you more strategic options and an overall more interesting gameplay experience.
Some adventuring areas could be more challenging than others, and some monsters more difficult to kill. But in no case would any monster be so powerful that a brand new character would be totally useless against it.
Let us not drag classes or gear into it -- I feel the above model could be adapted to either side of such design choices quite easily.
Comments
what do you meen with Variety in abilities? as in gaining new skills or be able to create new things?
Else im all for less focus on lvls
main thing to me for mmos is the lust to explore the world, build a distinguisht character , socializing and ultimatly creating someting togheter.
the vanity part in most of us, wanting to showoff, will present itself in how we play and will far more set you apart then a number (a false presentation) that will serv in powerlvling and the feeling of grind in the end.
stripp that and there is no reason to feel obligated to make the experience less fun then it could have been.
I still think if you use say a sword it would make you a bether swordfighter, it just feels natural. There is many ways to do this and you may be on the right track here Hexxeity.
By variety, I mean you gain new abilities ... probably (but not necessarily) in some sort of a skill tree progression.
In one game, you might have a limited number of skills active at once (as in Guild Wars or Dungeon Runners).
A different developer might choose to allow you to use any skill you have earned.
Another might want to link abilities to equipment.
Not a bad idea but i prefer something w/o levels altogether. I still don't understand why developers keep going back to the level system. People have expressed their feelings toward levels and said that they want something new yet every game that is coming out takes the same old MMO style and adds twists to it. That is not what people mean when they say they want something different.
Personally I favor the skill system. It allows for greater customization and you gain skill as you use those skills. It seems like the devs are just too lazy to create a brand new game from scratch. There is no imagination left in the MMO world and its quite disappointing. Its not like the skill system is a radical new concept. Ultima Online has proven that the skill system attracts players and works.
The game that comes to mind that refutes this is WoW. WoW is the most successful MMO to date but that is not to say that everyone loves WoW. I tried it when it had just come out a few years back and I couldn't stand it. I guess I was just 'spoiled' by UO's freedom. I wasn't used to having to follow a linear quest system and I certainly didn't enjoy doing quests to level. Another thing that bugged me after I stopped playing UO was that all other MMOs have a hotbar and offer very little UI customization compared to UO. Its almost like all the devs got lazy and just wanted to release a product without actually caring about the customer.
The day all this changes is the day I get excited about MMOs again...and I am not the only one that feels this way. Hopefully 2008 will be a better year but I seem to say that almost every year and it never is true.
I don't think that there should be no stats but that stats should not differentiate in such a big gap from a min character - max character. (like an unfit - fit person but the fit person still has bodily limits though there's some advantages, just not godly)
It's true abilities can be attained and improved through learning & practice but that also hones the body to be capable of more.
No matter what you do to a game there is going to be some kids that call having to do anything a "grind". Look at how easy WoW is and you still have kids saying WoW is a grind which is a joke. Untill they get to the point where they remove progression all together which makes the game a first person shooter kids will say it is a grind.
I find it stupid how fast people want their online world to go by. Now is it just a online single player game to see how fast you can "beat" it, which is retarded. Everquest took a long time to level, because it was suppose to, it was a world not a game. You were part of it, and were meant to be in it a long time. Kids forget what MMORPGs are about, that is a long term experience and a social community. It is ashame, but WoW fails at community which makes it fail as a world in my opinion. It is just a popular "Halo" or "Earthworm Jim" that is all.
I do like skill based character development, but kids will call that a grind too, because it actually takes some time to do it. Listen up kids, the time you are spending is suppose to be fun, not a rush to the finish line in an online world. I personaly would like to see a game made with so many levels that are hard to obtain that it would be impossible to finish and the devs add content along the way, then no one can whine about not being the best.
Guild wars already tried it. Unfortunately, Guild Wars = Build Wars and what's on your bar means more than your skill! Sure, skill plays a lot into it, but you can throw a crappy build into the hands of a pro (assuming the build isn't purposefully gimped, like a hamemr with no hammer mastery, but still something silly like the old Snowman build).
Part of the appeal of MMOs is being able to build characters. I'm just tired of the "noob that trips over rats and gets his eyes eaten out to dragon slayer, but still only in a group of 40" crap. Closing the performance gap between min and max level so that I can play alongside my higher level buddies or participate in what would otherwise be "endgame" content at low or even midlevel (only, do so in larger groups) would all go a long way to making the game more enjoyable and something I can take at my own pace, not the pace dictated by the developer.
Levels just bug me because I'm tired of the boring, linear character advancement. Disgaea had an interesting advancement scheme: You leveled up your character, you equipment, your weapon skills, your abilities, and restart your level over again with more potential (but keep all of the other stuff) and do it over again. Why can't we get something at least as entertaining as this?
I agree with qombi
A grind is a grind. The problems of Leveling are not so much an issue of rewards, but the process itself. the best games are ones where people have so much fun leveling up, they dont realize its a grind.
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I remember playing a trial game a few months ago on my Lap Top, but don't recall the name of it. It was simply based off of finding better items, like weapons, armor, pots, and things for your dog that helped you. In order to get unlock more areas, you have to preform tasks or complete quests. These also gave rewards, like necklaces etc. So it was the items that made you improve your playing, not a lvl.
With MMORPGs, the problem lies in the fact that these items would somehow be traded and not making the players actually fight for them. Lvls just make an easy way for Devs to force players to work for progress. I do agree though, that almost all games are based around lvling. I like the concept of lvling, but I would like to see a game that uses more items and perhaps, once you reach certain points in the games, like areas or perhaps teachers, you learn how to use new items etc or perhaps learn new abilities.
So, correct me if I'm wrong - but something like the FFX skill map?
Laura "Taera" Genender
Community Manager
MMORPG.com
I still dont understand really the fully skill based game, because i never played one.
EQ was a level based game but you had to build up your skills by using them. If you wanted to use a 2HS then you had to use it to get better at it, and when you first started using it you really sucked. Same went for spell types, if you didnt train up combustion then the first fire ball you got was going to fizzle ALOT. This seemed to work pretty well i though, you had to plan ahead or when you were level 40 and got the UBER 2 handed greatsword to drop you were useless with it unless you had previously trained up. Training up after the fact was a real pain.
Basically, your character would never get stronger, only more diverse as you gain new skills.
No atributes please, I can't think of something that kills immersion faster than assigning atribute points. If atributes should ever change, it would have to be passive and tied closely to the skills and abilitys you learn.
If I choose to specialise in heave melee combat, my stamina and strenght should increase over time, if I choose magic it would do the same for inteligence, but asigning points is the killer and a yawn fest.
It would not have to be as restrictive, though. In FFX, it takes a lot of effort to get away from the progression of your starting class, and unless you use rare spheres to jump around, your progression is VERY linear.
I'd rather see something like a bunch of branching skill trees, and you can get skills in whichever ones you want as long as you first take the prerequisites. Some trees could be wide and some deep, though, so it would still be harder to get to the top tier of the more powerful trees, but the more general-use ones could be chosen more easily.
It has been ages since I played GW, but as I recall, your HP, mana, and base damage all improve as you level up in that game. Have I mis-remembered? I know all the post-20 advancement is by gaining skills, so in that way, yes. Take away the first 19 levels, and GW is a good example. But I am thinking in more general terms -- GW does not have skill trees, but you could. GW has classes, but you wouldn't have to.
If you do not like the "Build Wars" nature of GW, then I have news for you -- classless games are even worse in this regard. That's why I favor skill trees.
I've never played EVE, so I do not have a firm grasp of advancement in that game. It may be similar to what I'm thinking, but only in a very abstract way.
So in a nutshell, you want to make ''leveling a different way and call the leveling something else, but no matter how you do it underneath the sugar is still something that is a level, how are you gonna get these new skills, by working your way to a........., what it looks to me is that the charecter will not level up, but the skills are gonna be what will be leveled up,
playing eq2 and two worlds
What I am proposing is a system where new players and vets can play together without the n00bs being completely overshadowed and useless.
I am NOT trying to explore ways to get rid of the so-called "grind." The grind exists only in your head, and as such there is NO WAY for a developer to remove it from the game.
Ohhh I know of a game that does this already, it is eq2, the higher member can mentor down and become the lower persons level and do the same quests with them.
playing eq2 and two worlds
No. (For one thing, CoH did that first and did it better.)
But the problem with that is, when they do that, they are still restricted to the low-level content. (Not to mention, the high-level player has no real reward for doing this beyond the social.)
My way opens up the entire world to characters of all levels.
Sidekicking (CoH) does allow you to go to high-level content, but only if you have a willing partner. My way allows slightly greater freedom, especially in terms of PvP.
t0nyd: Sorry, I thought you were wanting to increase attributes as you level up. I'm fine with varying starting stats. More than fine. I think it's great.
No. (For one thing, CoH did that first and did it better.)
But the problem with that is, when they do that, they are still restricted to the low-level content. (Not to mention, the high-level player has no real reward for doing this beyond the social.)
My way opens up the entire world to characters of all levels.
Sidekicking (CoH) does allow you to go to high-level content, but only if you have a willing partner. My way allows slightly greater freedom, especially in terms of PvP.
I just dont see how making a new person as strong enuff to help a vetertan player will do a game any good, you might as well throw all the low content and mid content out the window because everyone will bypass it if they have the option to be as powerful as an endgame char from the start , or not even play it because it may be boring because it will all be high lvl stuff with not much room for anything else because it would be useless.
playing eq2 and two worlds
boog -- obviously you LIKE levels.
I would like to do away with endgame content.
Why not have a world where you experience what you want, when you want?
As I said, some areas can still be tougher than others, and some can be more group- (or even raid) oriented. And yes, the tougher areas would have better loot.
But if your whole reason for playing the first 69 levels of a game is to get to level 70, you are doing a whole lot of stuff you'd rather not do, and I happen to think that's stupid.
yeah i played coh/cov, i didnt like it after the 2nd month it seemed all the same in the buildings, just different lvls, But as for eq2 i had a lvl 70 and i mentored down a lot to hwelp guildees and complete quests that i got grey's out from lvl, as well as get the aa points for killing nameds that i passed along the way and outgrew, when you mentored down to someone you could get the credit for the aa on nameds and such.
playing eq2 and two worlds
Okay kids I am going to write down below a game design for all of you that don't like the "grind" and want it removed.
Game starts then game ends. There you have it. Not a bit of grind ..was it fun?