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Pirates of the Burning Sea: Dev Journal Feedback Response
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
Flying Lab Software's Rick Saada takes the time to respond to some of the feedback that the team has received here on our MMORPG.com forums. Remember, sometimes, the devs are listening!
I’ve been spending a lot of time reading the feedback from beta users posting here on MMORPG now that the NDA has been lifted, and after some discussion with Kevin (Isildur) Maginn, our Lead Designer, I’d like to take a few moments to address some of the common concerns that have been raised in these posts. A lot of it is good feedback for us to hear (and has been echoed in the beta forums as well), so I’d like to call out a few of the issues and either explain why it’s that way (if it’s not going to change) or how we’re going to address it.
The first and most frequent comment has been about our use of instancing. As many posters have noticed, we do a lot of it. More in fact than we’d like, but much of it is for good reason. The underlying reason for most of our instancing is that a continuous world doesn’t work well for a ship based game set in an even remotely realistically scaled Caribbean. We started out, several years ago, trying to do just that. We had realistic speeds, realistic distances between islands, realistic island sizes, etc. It was *horrible*. Taking 45 minutes to an hour to sail between even nearby islands was excruciatingly dull. There’s a lot of empty water out there, and crossing it in real time was work, not a game. On the flip side, if we made the sailing time for movement between islands reasonable, the combat portion of the game became maniacally fast and arcade like, not at all the strategic and tactical battle we were trying to build. The answer, then, was to use two different timescales. On the sailing map where you move between islands, the travel speeds are unrealistically quick, the geography is more iconic than realistic, and the view is more bird’s eye than crow’s nest. When a battle needs to be fought, we drop you in to an instance where you can fight it out at normal speed, with more detailed terrain if you’re near land, and at a view that is close in to your ship for excitement.
;)
Read the whole journal here.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I would have to say that if all of these things you have discussed make it into the game it might be worth playing. The problem is, of course, that you run the danger of becoming a 2D EVE, just with a completely different system of advancement. You stick to the generic mission types, and the generic level system of advancement. Quite frankly, you sound like you are not ready.
Yet another developer ships a half-finished, half-assed product. Expecting the customers to put up with it and wait for the completion of the game.
When will these people learn that just because your Baseline Game is running and 'playable' does not mean it is a Finished Product that people are going to enjoy.
FINISH YOUR DAMN GAME BEFORE YOU FOIST IT OUT ONTO THE WORLD !
Or, be prepared for the inevitable consequences.
Didn't any of you study the Blizzard model of Development, Testing, Beta, and Release for World of Warcraft ?
Yeh i recently played the beta and to me it feels very buggy and just not any fun, what i hate most is how you instance between ship and docking, i'd rather being able to sail up to the place without it feeling that your a ship on a map with lots of names everywhere. Also the combat just isn't veryf un for both character bombat and ship combat and the animations and everything are terrible, well the graphics look terrible and bland aswel. I just can't see this game being a hit and if they release it i reckon it'll have less subscribers than Planetside, it's just not that pirate adventure we want to play.
I want a huge seemless world where i can sail and discover places on my own and everything feel really immersed and beautiful. When i imagine a Pirate game i just think of the first Pirates of the caribbean film and that's what i'd want it to be like.
I haven't been in beta, but the screenshots are pretty.
MMO's are never finished by the way. They are always a work in progress. Hopefully I get a free trial at some point, but right now LOTRO has its claws in me. That could change though.
I am amazed that you release a game that takes 11 days to max out, and then you admit it needs to be nerfed because there is not much to do at max level. Do you realize how stupid that sounds? What happened to your QA department? Do you even have any paid testers? It should take a year to max out.
Personally I would have enjoyed a seamless persistent world with lengthy travel times as you described originally. Instancing ruins the game, period.
One thing that scares me in that article is that CoH/CoV was mentioned TWICE as an example! That is not a very inspiring example.
And yes - the article summary does give away the fact that PotBS is quite unfinished - even on some basic conecpts. Didn't the Devs visualize all of these simple possibilities in the CONCEPT stage and then proceed from there? - I mean did the Devs never play the ORIGINAL Pirates! game? Did that original C=64 game not utilize all the mentioned concepts (except housing perhaps) around 25 years ago on a 64 KB RAM and 0.985MHz (PAL) processor machine?!!
And that game has been re-released a dozen times over the years already - its a perfect basic formula - the format was already developed - all Devs had to do was implement it. And after YEARS of development with latest Gigahertz machines and possibly millions in cost - even the basic foundations are not implemented?!! Terrible misuse of seed money and time I'd say.
Well thats now done - cannot be undone - Now please do something about the lag in towns!
I think one object of the development people need to realize is that, the game is self funded by the company, and this is not one of those huge vanguard type games, where so much money went into the game that you can feed a small country with the price tag alone.
From where this game was to where it is now is a huge leap and the company should be proud.
Unfortunatly though I refuse to play a game that is not immersive in the factyou have to instance around and even in combat, just takes the fun right out of a pirtate game.
This game should have been more cut-throat if you ask me, more of a real PIRATE experiance, and not a fair game.
Sadly Fair games are not fun. Would life be half as fun if you never died?
No it wouldnt you know why, because everyday will be the same, you never have to worry or be scared, or anything.
Same goes for MMO's there needs to be risks and fears, not just carebear "FUN!"
-Jive
And the font size, I don't wear or need glasses but the font is so small that it's hard t tell a r from an a, except in the chatbox. It's not a resolution problem, I only use 1280 x 1024. And while we are at it, it needs to be made clear which doors we can enter while in town. Mousing over every door you pass becomes pretty mundane after a players first walk through town.
Played in some form:
UO til tram, AC, EQ, AO, WW2O, PS, SB, CoH, AC2, Hor, LoTRO, DDO, AoC, Aion, CO, STO
Playing: WoW (for gf), WAR
Waiting For: SWTOR, FFXVI
Hoping For: DCUO, Secret World, Earthrise
-S- (UO Sonoma)
Sounds like the guy told me to try the game 6 months after release. Maybe. Tired of paying for unfinished/buggy crap. Why should I play right away, when told "Yes, this, this and this are missing or not up to par, and will be going in later". I'll play later, if the reviews are good.
At launch, no thanks....
This game seems like another Auto Assault in the making asfter playing the beta for a while. Great idea but implemented badly. The only reason now this game wont die away completely in a year is because its under the SOE badge, I cant see this getting more than 20k subscribers, if that, after a couple of months
I cant believe they put avatar combat and explorable ports in as an afterthought and not the planning stage of the game. How did they expect it would succeed even this far without it in this day and age of MMO's. Odd as it is people like to dress characters up and stuff, painting a boat a few colours and sails with pictures isnt enough. At least they got it in I suppose, even if it is half assed.
Things I dont like about the game.
although its all been said before...
Things I like
Things I'd like to see
In short yes PotBS is about sea and sea combat, but it needs an equally good, if not better land/avatar side of things if its to really succeed and stick around.
Claims were made here about WoW's philosophy around game development, suggesting that they follow the perfect SDLC (software dev lifecycle) model prior to shipment. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a beta tester, and an early adopter of WoW, i saw first hand what happens when you ship an incomplete product that doesn't perform well. I still remember my horde alt char fondly - our guild would go over to a different server whenever our main was down. I got that Tauren warrior to level 43, and that was only on Warsong's downtime!
The thread is symptomatic of a widely adopted false perception that MMO software should ship in a perfect state. The same old expectations we had for single player games sold off a shelf in the 90s have persisted over time, and we, the unforgiving public, demand that games fulfill the entire spectrum of MMO fantasies on day 1.
What floors me each time i read this type of whiny diatribe is that in the world of Google's fantastic development philosophy, betaware, facebook and other social software, 'change' is implicit in the process. Agile developers recognize that a product, or in this case, a game, is an evolution of ideas, and without significant feedback from users, you'll inevitably miss the mark. The challenge in this day and age is to deliver just enough content to foment interest and promise, but to build a layer of transparency between the developer and the user that establishes a contract of trust and partnership. The concept of 'let's work on this together' has the potential of bringing the collective innovation and creativity of the entire player community to the drawing board. Are we as developers so arrogant to think that we can drive that creativity alone? We certainly provide the vision, the structure, and the initial capital, but if we can't generate interest amongst the player community, what hope do we have?
People need to stop thinking of software in absolute terms. Developers no longer intend to drop Ultima III on your laps and walk away hoping it will sell. The MMO gaming world has added so much more complexity on top of earlier classic models, and the player community has become far more savvy and knowledgeable of the genre. I earnestly believe that the cooperative model, involving significant feedback on content and direction from users, is what will carry the day. Developers merely facilitate this process and apply their own expertise to package the product.
The is the web 2.0 core philosophy. Group-think! The new generation of millenials prefers to interact more organically with their surroundings. They prefer networking over monolithic models of design and implementation. In a way, the modern developer of gaming software is building a product for the newer generation of millenials utlizing techniques and design principles that appeals to them as a whole. The hero-worship of the older generation-X made games like CounterStrike, Quake and Unreal popular. The Xers related heavily to the lone hero surrounded by enemies bent on his destruction. There was a distinct notion of self actualization that was unbearably appealing. Although Xers still comprise of a huge percentage of today's gamers, the balance is shifting towards the 2.0 model - the model of participation, cooperation, and networking. This is the model we need to employ in the games today.
Let's give Flying Lab Software a chance to embrace this game with us. I, like many others, find great appeal in a game that tries to differentiate itself from the pack. I applaud their efforts, and i will invest my time in helping to evolve this game into something we will all enjoy playing.
And.. I believe that my voice will be heard, because my Captain Silverbeard Stubble is as critical to the content of the game as any NPC waiting to send me to davey jones.
Silverbeard
We don't take you more seriously because you throw in unnecessary large words. The game's still going to flop.
When I first heard of this game I was thinking of the caribbean size and thinking how awesome it would be to sail and discover islands, shipwrecks, ghost ships, ect....for myself(not look at the current map and see everything at once with nothing to explore at all.). Even more I thought how awesome it would of been to be sailing (in the perspective of how the combat instances are now) and see black sails on the horizon. Do I run? Do I stay the course? If it was thought out a bit more they could of adjusted the speeds needed accordingly. They could of also made port to port transport possible if they wanted to instance the actual ports so there 5 year old hardware could handle it.
Currently as expressed by this article the game in their eyes will be good in about 6 months.
Couldn't say it better myself. I have to applaud the developers for even attempting to communicate with the gamers and with the response they get I wouldn't blame them if they stopped. I for one appreciate the effort and impressed they even responded to feedback. No MMO is even close to ready at launch and is never finished period. I still remember all the flamers slagging off EVE at launch and look at it now. Same goes for TR and the like. Quite your moaning!
Couldn't say it better myself. I have to applaud the developers for even attempting to communicate with the gamers and with the response they get I wouldn't blame them if they stopped. I for one appreciate the effort and impressed they even responded to feedback. No MMO is even close to ready at launch and is never finished period. I still remember all the flamers slagging off EVE at launch and look at it now. Same goes for TR and the like. Quite your moaning!
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude; greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.
Samuel Adams
Its more an explanation why things are as they are, which are maybe interesting for gaming historians. The great questions, what will come after release are still clouded in mystery. I can understand and accept MMOs arent released with the complete scope of things like a many years old MMO. So gamers comparing it to their todays experiences with WOW or LOTRO or EQ2 are just doing a new game no fair credit. MMOs never launch complete, its just too much a matter of constant work.
On the other hand, I'd like to hear a bit more about WHAT they gonna add and change. I hear the make it harder and levelling slower. Given the repetitive nature of the quests that may quite backfire, as good as the idea itself is, but it may as a result heighten the feeling of grind and treadmill. I can only warn making levelling slower before they add more diverse content.
Also I want to see the loss of ship issue addressed. I no other MMO you can loose your gear entirely as a death penality, and I am sure that will make casual and normal players feel quite reluctant to take part in PVP.
Or the qustion wether they will add real open land sometimes, or a revamp of the swashbuckling system asf. I mean its nice of them to admit the problems and tell us how they came to this point, but I'd rather hear what they plan to do about it.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Hi guys,
I am a veteran POTBS beta player, and I chose to respond to this post rather than on the POTBS forums, because I know I will only get flamed there.
The problem I see with POTBS is that it is too easy. You're refusal to create pvp servers only adds to the fact. What many of us want is a pirate game with the style of old Ultima Online, Housing, and freedom. Currently we have missions..missions..missions and more missions and maybe a port battle after tedious hours of killing npcs. This is all very unrealistic. A real pirate lived on opportunity and had complete freedom.
Let me outline in more detail what we really want to see.
1. Freedom. You can control pvping and still have pvp available in all sea areas. You simply utilize the patrol ships to attack enemy nations in noob/capital cities. This would prevent a lot of noob bashing, yet still allow for the sea to be the dangerous mistress she was meant to be. We need to fear a level 50 pirate or nation captain, not wave at him and laugh because he can't do anything unless he's in a red circle.
2. Housing. We need housing, custom built, anywhere. We want to land our ship off beach and walk up to the beach, hack through some jungle, and build a house with our comrades. From there we want to use this *hidden* base as a launching point to launch raids on merchant (real merchant) shipping or pirate raiders (if we are nations), or even other nations. Housing provides a realistic aspect to the game which currently is missing.
3. Missions... This is nearing WoW quite frankly and I hate WoW. In UO you didn't have missions. You had a house and skills and you went around raising skills and living in your house, meanwhile fearing the pvpers or joining them.
4. Diplomacy and War - Nations should have diplomatic relations and war. You should be able to interact with them anywhere (not just in pvp zones) in respect to the diplomatic situation. Currently you can sail past a spaniard who you are at war with and just wave at him.
You may say fear doesn't sell games, but it does. Those who get attacked at young levels are only inspiried to get better to kick the butt of the guy who attacked them. I know this from previous experience, and sooner or later they can. It encourages guilds (or in this sense societies) and takes away the boring safety net that destroys the economy and excitement.
So if you guys can make me a server like this, I will buy your game. Otherwise unfortunatley I will not, but I did enjoy playing a unique set MMO during the beta, and I hope that my feedback will be helpful.
I appreciate the dev's taking time to communicate this information and explain why certain design choices were made.
I don't believe for a minute that anyone really wants to spend hours traveling the oceans exploring, there's a reason why almost all single player naval combat games (subs, ships etc) have a method to speed up the passage of time while you travel across featureless spans of water.
I've been on cruise ships, and trust me...it boring just sitting on deck watching the water go by, thank goodness they have lots of bars and shows going on.
The parallel to EVE is good... because it has large, featureless spans of space..and they solve that by letting players "warp" through the system. Shame ships on water can't have warp drive.
It would appear that many folks feel the game is unfinished and unfun. If so, that's a shame. I haven't given the game a trial yet, Pirates just aren't my thing....maybe one day I'll give it a go after its released.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont think anyone is really bothered about the speed of travel in the game. It's just there will be bugger all interesting places to travel to after a week or 2 of the game when you have seen everything.
Even WOW (don't flame please it is simply true) had issues at launch though it was better than some.
Some of the free (or micro transaction) MMOs have been quite stable though, which is odd. You would think it would be the other way around. Guild Wars was solid at launch, for instance (not a pun).
As far as POTBS, I think it will launch in a near finished state and waiting a few months is best. For those who are in beta, have you tried POTC online and how do they compare? POTC is obviously aimed at a more casual audience but is fun to play.
I can only applaud FLS for their openness on admitting what's wrong with their game at the moment. This devlog only shows that they're actually listening to their testers in matters of what's fun and what not. True, PotBS has some issues that need to be addressed, and as everybody can read from this devlog, FLS has the balls to admit where the weaknesses of their game are. On the other hand, you cannot please everybody. Especially not at launch.
In contrast to others, I actually like their PvP implementation and think that it's a good approach, even though it needs some work. And it's like that with many systems. Quite a lot of things are a matter of taste. Some curse because it's not point-and-click, some think PvP is too limited, some say the missions outright suck. Some don't like instancing, some think levelling is too slow and some think it's too fast. Go figure.
I believe FLS is aware of the issues they have to address. But I guess you can't stay in development forever. At some point you have to draw the line and say "Okay, we'll launch in this state and work on the most pressing issues right after launch, then we can make it even better."
I've seen the progress FLS made, and I personally think it's okay to launch it in the shape it will have in roughly a month. It might not be great or "teh uber" yet. But the core systems are in place and work.
Does it have more or less bugs than other MMORPGs at launch? Debatable.
Is it "finished"? Hell, no!
Does it have potential? Definite yes on that.
Is it fun directly at launch? You decide.
In this game they populate their infinetely tiny little world with npc ships to attack. This = MOBS
In other games to populate their very large worlds, they include MOBS
Currently they seperate chat channels as you travel into different areas of the game saying you are now in "such and such region".
In other games they too seperate there large amounts of area into regions not only for chat but also to explore. Now in those games you are on land and yet have to travel all that way to different regions. In some instances they allow you to use a flying mounts, teleport, ect....to get to another region very quickly. The same could of been done in an open world here with the ability to TP to ports as is currently in game where you have a ship located in dry dock. Then with an open world they could of still made areas you have to zone into, ports, special areas, cuba region, new orleans regions, ect....
When it comes to exploring in this game there is Zero exploration. You can see it all, all the time. Imagine if in WoW for an example they just called the entire map Open Map. You could see everything and so on the Open Map they allowed you to quickly walk across it quickly and then if you came across a mob they open an instance so you could see in detail the area that you were at. Well that is exactly what they did here.
Also the argument that in the large ocean there is nothing to see, that is true perhaps in our time on a "Cruise Ship". However what do you see once you near a port. Lots and lots of Ships, merchants ships, military ships, fishing ships, ect....Why not have done the same in this game, except populate the open oceans with Navy Ships, Pirate Hunters, Freetraders, Smugglers, Ghost Ships, Ship Wrecked Sand bars, Islands, and so much more. Just use the imagination.
They have made it childess and simplistic. Now they are trying to defend those decisions which is there right. Our right will be to bash the game and not play what we were so excited about playing.
Also a closed beta player: You made some pretty good points - I wouldn't flame you on the official boards.
I'm not a huge pvp person, but there is something to be said about the thrill that comes with risk. Way back in EQ trying to run through Kithicor Forest at night with my low level character was exciting. Played WoW on a pvp server, even though I didn't seek pvp - I just wanted that little added something extra to the experience. So, I understand what you are talking about. (Though, I don't fully understand the want of player housing, but that's just me). I do like the diplomacy idea.
The devs do seem like they listen, so I have hope for this title. I will be there at release and will continue to play (and pay) as long as it provides entertainment.
I think the game is lonely in spots it shouldn't be like random fighting instances (you can't enter this battle or whatever it says), and not lonely at the wrong spots sailing in the open sea. Eve can be a very lonely game with busy "ports" but the PoTBS people have probably asked themselves if having only 200k subscribers like eve is enough for them.
also you can't really have pirate infested waters for the average trader to avoid with little travel time, every waters is going to be pirate waters or whatever faction waters at all times, or it could be in less than 10 minutes or what have you. People living in certain areas of eve is a big positive to that game.
seems like all an mmo is is a mish mash of varying timesinks and even if you're just pointed in one line and least you feel you're accomplishing something. In eve I can mine for 50 minutes straight, npc, travel, in wow I can grind mobs for faction or do laps around azshara for thorium. I dont' think traveling for an hour with a load of cargo to sell or hunting npcs wuld be much different.
if there were like rare ships to watch out for on the open sea (and by open sea, i'm not talking current travel mode i'm talking non instanced 45 minutes between nearby islands mode) that would make long travel more fun, or that bastard pirate that's shot up half your guild if you could trail him (or run away from him) for 30 minutes while trying to get backup that would be interesting.
I think open pvp with long travel times would be quite awesome and then on the open sea you could have the distance set out really far even on cheaper 3d cards to see ships on the horizon.
I sit and watch americas cup sailing for 3 hours straight I think I could handle long travel times.
also I just want to say 2 factions in wow is 1 too many factions.
for full disclosure though i've only played about an hour worth, i sailed around for a while and fought a couple npcs, tried to board one of them (which was kind of strange that after they kicked my ass I just get back on my ship and start ship fighting again) and that's about it.
i think immersion is the hugest thing in mmo's and yes wow has it even though it is instanced in spots. When you're in an open world cave in wow it's lame that stuff respawns so quick, so it's pretty cool in an instance when it doesn't respawn so quick which in turn makes me into thinking i'm actually getting something accomplished even if i'm going slow so that equals immersion to me. Eve has it's immersion even though you see loading screen all the time when you jump and you never see your legs. those old rpgs like dragon warrior and final fantasy don't really have immersion and the traveling around open sea and running into npc ships is kind of the same deal.
well if the game does go auto assault I'd be interesting if you guys made a open pvp server with out the fighting instances and huge travel time, I bet you could get 40k people to hardcore that up.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
if I were to kill a titan tomorrow and no CCP employees showed up to say grats I would petition it.
Waiting for: the next MMO that lets me make this macro
if hp < 30 then CastSpell("heal") SpellTargetUnit("player") else CastSpell("smite") end