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Major Oversight in Game Design
WiccanCircle
Member Posts: 336
There seems to be an oversight with how Tabula Rasa has designed the characters 
OK, I have made & leveled two characters to 14th.
One a Soldier - One a Specialist
I clone them both and can now make 4 level 15's and each choose a careers path.
Each heads off to become the next tier of their careers, everything seems good until... The Clone will ALWAYS be more powerful. My Clones don't have left over baggage (wasted skills) from previous levels that I no longer want.
Say I made both into BioTechs... the Clone can instantly become a more powerful level-15 BioTech than my original character can 
This is only amplified as the levels and Tiers increase. By the upper levels an Original Character has become a worthless Bork-Gimp Looser. OK, so they have accolaids and have actually done the missions, but the new Clone at level 30 is SO FREAKING MUCH MORE POWERFUL that the Original Character is not worth playing anymore... ?? 
Am I missing something here?
Have Fun,
Christine
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Comments
I'm not sure but I allocated my point better than you thin, my main character is as equally skilled as my clone. I didn't have to really make a clone to replace my main character cuz i used my points better. So I would say learn to save your points and stop putting them in skills you know you’re not going to use at level 30+. I know tough love, but some ones gotta do it.
a lot of the early skills are useful at higher lvls, such as firearms 5 or rage 5 or tools 5, etc. A smart, planned out progression will have little trouble with this. That doesn't mean the risk isn't there, but in my case, my main is lvl 30 and has all the skills he needs and none that are wasted....and it'll remain that way till 50 so its obviously not always an issue for those that plan ahead and consider their skills carefully.
For those that don't, they can always use a clone from a ToO and then delete the main, with the new clone replacing the old one for that new class line.
That sounds great... except what about old armor skills? Wasted.
Old weapon skills? - Oh yeah, those too are wasted too.
Suuuuure, we can toss a few skill points at different abilities as we explore the game, but realize that they are not useful at all in a few more missions. That is NOT well thought out game designing.
Want to try out the Leeching guns? Better not because you will want those points later. How about that new armor.. nah, just put in a single point to be able to wear it and move on
Exactly why would anyone gimp themselves by using abilities and skills that are offered in the game {cough} rediculous!
Here is an idea... let's bypass all of the parts of the game on the way up to the 'End Game' MMORPGs are not supposed to be about an End Game. I am not a Min/Maxer but I can see the obvious oversight that the designers missed.
But the mindset of these dev-clowns seems to be DOOM and they never looked past that style of play... oh well, nice try at a MMORPG Ricky, but you missed.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
And here I was thinking the reason clones exist is so that you COULD improve on your avatars ability. What was I thinking?
It’s obvious you don't like TR very much considering that most of every post you've made here is some kind of complaint. I'm only guessing here but I think you really would be happier playing COH? Just a guess, and who the hell is Ricky?
Thats kinda the point of making to clone. to fix any point you may have put in stuff just to try out . They give you plenty of clones to this lots of times.
In fact every sector has a mission you complete it you get another Clone., and in the near future you will be able to just by extra clones from the stores
So what is the point of the 2nd through 5th "pump" (must be a shooter term because I have never heard it in a decade of playing MMORPGs) of say... Motor Assist Armor, Reflective Armor, Hazmat Armor, Machine Gun, Leech Gun etc? A point in any of those past first 'pump' is a waste. Why bother even having them in the game at all? You can't all be such fanbois that you miss this obvious game flaw? Or is it just something that shooters all have in common - poorly designed character abilities/skills/options ?
I can agree that I don't like nintendo and Tabula Rasa is basically a console shooter with more places to put keybinds, but am I seriously the only one here that is perplexed by the so called MMORPG with disposable characters? Why try to be an MMORPG if the character is the least important part of the game?
Weird.
I do realize that this game is fanbioed, for the most part, by shooter fans (which is also why it isn't going to do well in the MMO market, shooter fans 'Win" games and move on, MMORPG fans slooooowly build a character, slooooowly watching it grow and stay on and on and on ad infinitum.)
If the character that I play at >30th level never actually did the quests of anything <29th level something seems amiss to me... I guess that is why I have always been confused about eBay-toons - Tell me I am not the only one here who finds this odd.
(Or did everyone that also found it strange already take their time/money to actual MMORPGs?)
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Well you just got a respec with the last patch - so I used it to tweak my skills around.
I agree - no point putting more than one point into 2nd tier armor. Leech gun - I have never used it. Machine guns rock - 5 points all the way.
a lot of your concerns regarding wasted skill points on t1-t3 skills, weapons and armour have been voiced ad nauseum since early closed beta.
there are simply not enough skill points allocated, and, coupled with the uselessness of t1 and t2 armour in the long run, as well as the craptasticallity of the lower tier skill (with the noted exception of firearms [and even there only firearms 4]), you naturally gimp your characters as you level them
couple this with the meanness of the clone points, and the half-respec cloning grants you and you are redefining 'MEH' on an ongoing basis
This is one aspect of the game that demands some serious loving and a major rethink by the devs. The game is supposed to be fun, and offer the depth of game play that will keep people going. Right now it is fun in the short-mid term, but without permitting the ability to fully respec, eith er on the fly a la GW, or through more clone points and a full respec there - we are severely limited in the amounts of character build experimentation permitted, and as such, consigned to the kiddy pool depthwise
I agree with the OP. Although I really liked playing the game in Beta the one thing that I found very flawed was the aspect of having lower tier abilities that get replaced. I kept finding myself making characters that wouldn't pick ANY abilities so that I could spend points at a later level. How dumb of a design is that? Like the OP said, why even have those lower tier abilities to begin with? If people are just going to bypass them and save their points for later levels, just don't even bother making lower tier abilities making all characters skilless until level 50 and dumping a bunch of points on them. How boring would that be to develop a character?
Or better yet, make lower tier abilities that feed INTO the higher tier abilities so that they aren't a waste. Synergy is good.
100% agree with ya. lower class armor skills are useless.
thanks to patch 1.3 we got respec, but it feels like too little, too late
the whole idea of Lineage-like profession tree plus Clone idea for respecs was a fresh one, but due to the repetitiveness of quests (kill 200 more Thrax on main char, 2nd clone, 3rd clone and 4th clone, rinse, repeat... - more tiers == more clones == more repetitiveness
IF only they had time to do 4 start locations for tier 3 proffs :sigh:
Intrestingly enough for the armour classes some people are finding (for example) Reflective armour to be best used on Spies in PvP.
It really is down to your playstyle. Although i have to admit that i am NOT taking stealth past rank 1 for now. Yes, some lower level tier armours have less armour value than the highers... BUT having said that IIRC some of the specialist Tier 3 armours actually have LESS armour value than Motor assist.
Now talk about a conumdrum.
Each type of armor has its own certain unique values and regardless of tier, they can be useful at all levels. There are people that I know of that are still using Motor Armor because of the speed bonuses it gives out. I also know biotechs who love Tier 2 Hazmat Armor but hate Tier 3 Bio-Armor.
My Tier-3 Bio-Armor has lower armor ratings than my Tier 1 or Tier 2 choices. So if I wanted a better Armor class I have to go back. I decided I wanted better regen, so I stuck with Bio-Armor. So saying that other Tier choices are useles just is flat out wrong. They are only useless by your own personal preference. The other armor Tiers are still useful, just take a look at what the different pumps are good for an decide for yourself.
Also Lightning 5, a Tier 1 skill is still useful at all stages of the game. My Tier 3 Healing ability will still be useful when I hit Tier 4. Just because some of your abilities don't suit you now, doesn't mean they don;t suit others.
Hmmmm.... I seriously doubt that I am the ONLY one who is changing from one type of armor to another every couple of levels...
Motor assist-hazmat-mech and the cycle repeats...
No, the statement that first tier armor skills are useless is a bunch of "balderdash"...
The notion that one should spend nothing on skills until lvl 50 is completely absurd unless one always has people at their beck and call to help them with EACH AND EVERY QUEST on the way.
And oddly, as I approach lvl 30 I am looking at some lower level skills again... thinking how much easier things would be if I trained a couple a little more...
To the OP:
How's about some details on your skills at lvl 30?
What exactly DID you train?
I am curious how you arrived at your "conclusions" regarding this "fatal flaw".
You make a bunch of statements and draw conclusions, please tell us how you got there.
pump 5 into motor assist and 5 into sprint and I challenge you to find anyone who can keep a lock on you in PvP. Those 2 tier 1 skills are priceless in PvP.
If you don't PvP, 5 into lightning and 5 into firearms are anything but worthless and add a lot of survivability all the way to the end of your levels.
There's no way that someone spec'd fully in upper tier skills while neglecting lower tier skills, would be more powerful at all, let alone alot more powerful.
Another patch is coming soon and another respec with it. The way TR does it is a good balance between two extremes. On the one end is like Diablo 2 where wasted skill points could only be fixed by a reroll. On the other end is Guild Wars where the skills can be tweaked in town to your hearts content (boring imo). GW was all instanced, so I can't imagine how that would work in a persistant MMO, but TR hits the sweet spot and they may develop more opportunities to respec.
Am I missing something here? The fact is you control all of you characters. What difference does it make? You have the same name where people can send you a tell or invite you no matter what. Who cares if you use a clone or the char you started out with? I mean thats what clones are for LOL..... whatever, people will find anything to complain about...
Of course, if better clones bother you, don't clone. Just play your one main toon. TR gives you the choice!
Not cloning and living with old armor skills that are not used doesn't offset the poorly designed aspect of the game...
Respecing the entire game every feew weeks is the cowards way out of fixing a skill system that is really not well thoughtout.
The pathetic situation is that I will likely relevel two characters to level 14 and not take their Tier 2 armors on them. Then the four characters will all be ready for the upper levels without lost skill points at level 15. Pathetic way to design a game in my not very humble opinion.
But that still misses the concept that there isn't any reason to have wasted skills in a game that has so very few skills to begin with.
Sheet! I forgot ! I am playin' DOOM not an MMORPG. It isn't about characters - Its DOOM after all... just run over ammo packs all day and forget about skills and powers.
OK, never mind.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Hey Bub, or bubette...
Like to make a respone to my earlier queries?
Or will you cut and run?
Your experiences don't seem to jive with mine... I am curious to learn why.
What does sued armor skills have to do with anything? Who would sue armor skills anyway? Yes its a bad design when they let you make a clone and respec your skills. now you can stop playing because the game is ruined. Any game that lets you sue armor skills..is not worth playing.
What does sued armor skills have to do with anything? Who would sue armor skills anyway? Yes its a bad design when they let you make a clone and respec your skills. now you can stop playing because the game is ruined. Any game that lets you sue armor skills..is not worth playing.
/faceplant
Best comeback from this crowd is about a typo? Sheesh, this game is lacking, but if that is the state of discussion, why bother?
I have played a little more since splitting off the four level-15's and... yawn.
I can see that there is a so-called MMO game running on my computer, but for the life of me I can't find it by actually playing Tabula Rasa. There's nothing here.
I will stand by my first essesment that something is lacking in a MMORPG-wannabe game that resorts to retiring a character to be replaced by a clone rather than having useful skills on the character in the first place.
By level-15 I had already stopped using three skills... and this game only has a few skills in the first place. Pathetic.
At level-15 I get the honor of taking the weapon skill I will use for the rest of the game. Ditto with the armor. After that I have the plethora of a whole 8 more skills for the next 35 levels of the game? Level-15 isn't halfway to 30, it is closer to halfway to 17th. If that level of depth is going to keep me playing for another 25 levels they are horribly mistaken... they had better add a TON more colors to dye my armor.
Mudpuddle deep character design is the disgusting stain of too many shooter game ruining MMORPGs.
This is a shooter. A boring shooter that is geared for kids that like to play their 'maxed level' toons over and over. This has nothing else at this point to keep a person playing past a few days. Same exact point click, hear the loud annoying gun sounds ad infinium (I have already turned my sound down to a whisper and turned my music and the Mark Levin Show up to compensate for the lawnmower repetative noise.)
I have to keep in mind that most (statistically almost all) people playing games today have no experience outside of console shooters and Zelda style linear quests. They don't know that they don't need a flashing graphic telling them to pick up some object. They don't understand that a quest need not be a set of waypoints to be visited sequentially... their little characters being spoon fed as they bump along this slotcar track of the game. Yawn.
I can see the faces of most of the people that are fanbioing this pseudo-MMO game, all contorted with confusion... I am guessing that they recently turned off their xbox/nintendo/other console junk and are confused why anyone would want more than boring, repetative, single dimentional toons randomly shooting at everything that moved on the screen while people that are 'supposedly' grouping together basically solo together in a group setting. (By the way, I repeat, if you can not click on another person to have active buffing and interaction then it is NOT a MMORPG, Period)
This game is not what it could have been. It is DOOM 2007.
That being said, it had potential, add dozens more powers. Make skills that are taken early mean something later, make skills taken later mroe than just buffs to the skills taken early.
but it would take such a rediculous overhaul to make this into anything more than the repetative shooter, that it is easier to start with a new game, a blank slate... oh yeah, a tabula rasa.
See you in the next game.
"The reality of the poor in America isn't the difference between The Haves and The Have Nots, it is the difference between The Haves and The Have Lots."
Best of luck to you on your next game.
Its kind of funny to see posters come on here, and in game chat, " Whats the best build?!?" or the next question " How should i spend my points?!?"
Sorry folks hate to break it to ya there arnt any "lower" tiered skills, just because you have reached a lvl that allows you to unlock a new class and skill set doesn't mean your previous spent points arnt just as powerful and as useful for your overall character design as they once were. If your sore about spending that pumps into lightning and not in say the machine gun , then that's your own stupidity, no one forced you to spend any points at all. if you read the description on skills and items, you would have planed ahead and saved skill points to use elsewhere.
You are limited to your specialties. A soldier will never be able use the tool skill to heal them selves and others nor will a specialist be able to use a machine gun.
If when you started as a soldier, and spent points in the lightning skill, that skill is just as useful as it was when you first got it, through out your whole gaming time. You say, "D'oh Ive wasted points in reflect armor, what good is reflect when you can have grav armor... ??
The answer is simple, the effect for opened armor is on a per piece basis. I may choose to ware a grav suit and reflection armor gloves, allowing me to get the benefits of reflecting a dmg % back onto an enemy, hell toss a a pair of motor assist boots and i got a boost of speed.
I spent pumps on firearms, i spent 5 pumps on firearms, ill use that for the rest of my time playing TR, its a bonus to the weapon to be added to what ever stats a weapon i find to use may be. when I'm a commando i can use machine guns if i want, and so on and i will use those weapon through out my time and how ever many pumps i add to the skill will only make my dps with that weapon classification even more uber. so again where is the wasted points?
Hows that wet paper sack your lost in?
So I'm faster, i cant be knocked down easy ill reflect dmg back.
If your not intelligent enough to comprehend the fact that you don't have to use a whole grav suit then that's your tough luck buddy.
TR is not a cookie cutter mmo like the rest on the market, it has its own jargon, its own way with items and game play system.
Seems to me folks like the OP are too use to cookie cutter mmos, and feel they all should have the same game play mechanics and items and classes should work the same as every other game out. well tough shit they don't with TR.
So basically you come to these forums to whine about how you didn't plan how you wanted to progress and that you didn't read the manual and that you never took the time to read the description of items. Oh and how you seem to be unable to comprehend the fact that TR is a new game all its own.
And save the fanboi crap, I'm the most jaded old timer gamer dad on these boards, but all of my reviews are dead on and always in my own opinion.
Enjoy your cry and good luck with that sack.
FoE Fist of the Empire
