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Outing myself: I never max levelled any char
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
I'll make a confession here: n 4+ years and a dozen MMOs I never made a single character max level, except my SWG Jedi - but him only because there was some bug in this Wookiee arena (if anyone recalls...)
Somehow I always stop playing my character about in the last 15-20% of levels. Always. Its something that starts to be non fun from this point on, I cant say exactly what, but it get too much grind and too less fun. It feels just too much like work and the sense of playing a "story", and adventure usually gets lost to me on the last 20% of levels.
Instead of outlevelling the character, I start a new one. Always, in all of the many MMOs I played. There always happens a deceleration that somehow takes the feeling of growth away.
Opinions??
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Comments
Do you group much or have a core group of friends you do quests with this always seems to motivate people to push there character..
Dude I have this same problem. LoL! Once I get the first like 30% of levels under my belt I never feel like leveling anymore because it's just the same old thing over and over again. Oh Well, at least you have a max leveled character on a game. I don't have any, the closest I have to a max level is level 48 on WoW where the max level is 70. I play other MMORPG's, but most I jsut started so I don't have any high or mid levels on those.
The only game i have maxed out a character on is Shadowbane. And thats because it only takes about 2 weeks to max one out
I have the exact same problem, never have I reached max level with a character, not even in freaking Guild Wars. I always start a new character after a few levels. My highest level character is a 49 Hunter in WoW.
I would say the only game where I have a chance of maxing would be FFXI.. at this rate, I'll be max in oh.. 2020 or so. I have also never maxed a character, most games become a bore long before then. I enjoy most them for 20-30 levels, and then quit out.
Yeh i feel your pain cause normally i get to about level 30 and like omg i can't be bothered anymore it's boring.
I totally hear/read what your saying, I've played quite a few MMO's, DDO, 2moons, linage2, RF-online, guild wars, city of heros/villans, archlord and I just started playing WOW, I'll see how that works out, but far was I can tell it's the grind that bores me away or the games higher level quests that are geared for groups only, I like joining in with groups to complete a quest, but I also like solo play, I wish I could pull all the cool stuff out of all my fav MMo's and build one perfect game,( with min grind).
To all who say that the Long grinds at higher level's are nesaceriy, I say get a job if you want a long grind.
it looks like everyone has this same problem. me included.
Its because of the leveling ramp up. The increase of the curve becomes quite a bit more noticeable in the last 15-20% range. Even in games like WoW which make the curve a lot more shallow. The human mind intuitively distinguishes between a straight line and a curve and the ever increasing nature of the game becomes apparent.
Your brain puts your intutive math together with your anticipated rewards and figures out that its not really that great of a deal anymore. You therefore becomes less excited and feel less good or perhaps even despair and begin to dislike the game.
The only way around this is to be either obessessive and single minded about advancement/"finsihing" or to have other reasons to gain xp like hanging out with friends.
I often wonder if a linear xp gain would keep people like you because even a very slow linear curve keeps it nice and constant and you won't get that feeling of your goal slipping farther and farther away.
Lastly I will say, don't feel bad about this. Feel good about it. It means you are somewhat mentally healthy. Continuously chasing carrots that you can never reach is a fool's bargain. You have an in-built subconscious mechanism that is preventing you from playing the perpetual fool's game the deisgners set up and which even they know is completely un-maintainable.
Also keep in mind even games like SWG have this problem even if they are "sandbox" or skill based. The use based advancement of skills was also on an ever increasing curve and that becomes quite apparent as well.
Now Eve doesn't have this problem. You know the score up front and can play out your skills advancement for the next 5 years with a skilling tool. Instead it has a different problem of getting people to accept the system in the first place and focusing on the sandbox elements of the game instead. So generally if someone intially accepts the deal they do not "suddenly" lose interest due to the advancement system. They may lose all their money or get pirated whatever and lose interest/excitement though.
Its a fundamental difference in thinking about your character. Most games continuously move the goal posts. But some people simply get depressed and lose excitement when you keep changing things like that. Many people are not content to be Charlie Brown.
I know exactly how it is to not get a max level character in any MMO. I've played MMOs for about 7-8 yrs and Only since last year and this year (expansion) I made a Max level character in WoW. It took me about 7-8 Months to get to 60 in WoW when I focused on just one character, and then it took me about 2 months to hit 70.
In other games I only had a 52 in EQ during PoK, 42 in DAoC, 127 in AO, and 59 in EQ2 at the moment.
I've never tried to push for max level. I just want to enjoy the game and play at my own pace, because if I just grind and grind I'll just fizzle out.
have to comment on Gestalts post. Good read, well written and insightful. certainly gave me a different perspective.
Hey, Elikal.
I was at a Christmas party with my younger brother and we were discussing this issue.
I think MMORPGs are dead. Dead. We tolerate the lack of 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, 3) deep Questing, and 4) varied content options. Developers cannot deliver what we want: world immersion, above else, to feel and be different, and impact a story/world in a variety of ways. The total experience should be fun, complex, and exciting. I got a job. I am not PAYING YOU 15.00 a month to grind faction or have some teen tell me (after spending three months on a character) that I just got "pwned" in PvP. I am also impatient with organizing and scheduling predictable "raids."
Developers want us to grind faction, raid, or PvP. I am honestly reaching the point of forsaking MMORPGs completely. It is not us. It is them. (And they are not even releasing games finished).
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WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
Hey, Elikal.
I was at a Christmas party with my younger brother and we were discussing this issue.
I think MMORPGs are dead. Dead. We tolerate the lack of 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, 3) deep Questing, and 4) varied content options. Developers cannot deliver what we want: world immersion, above else, to feel and be different, and impact a story/world in a variety of ways. The total experience should be fun, complex, and exciting. I got a job. I am not PAYING YOU 15.00 a month to grind faction or have some teen tell me (after spending three months on a character) that I just got "pwned" in PvP. I am also impatient with organizing and scheduling predictable "raids."
Developers want us to grind faction, raid, or PvP. I am honestly reaching the point of forsaking MMORPGs completely. It is not us. It is them. (And they are not even releasing games finished).
Well I think what you are talking about is a larger issue. Let me give an example and extrapolate.
Today I finished NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Which is essentially a Bio-Ware style (made by Obsidian using BioWare IP) story based, fairly linear game with a number of converstaion comapanion consequences.
A couple weeks ago I also finished Mass Effect.
So here is the thing. It occurred to me that if these were MMORPGs I might not have finished these games. Games like WoW (various EQ clones) are similarly linear to Bio-Ware games. They give you some choice where to go, but it all progresses in a predictable tiered fashion. My main motivation for playing the game is two-fold.
1) I like the gameplay/customization to some degree.
2) I want to finish the story and the story customization.
For me the second one is what really provides the drive, although the first provides me with motivation to due research about and look into the game and come up with cool things I like.
The single player games I look into and do research and come up with builds etc. but do not finish almost always have a story I lost interest in. Either because the story was not good or because it offered very little in the way of interesting customization.
There are a few game where I have finished solely because I wanted to see what a build would do. I did this with a Weapon Master build in Hordes of the Underdark, actually this was a second play through. But that is very rare where as finishing for the story (and sense of accomplishment) is common and almost guaranteed with a good story. Whereas its rare and pretty much complete randomly based on whether I happened to like some novel idea when its based on character building.
The character building aspects adds a lot to a game. It makes it more complex and rich. But its not enough, not usually, not in the long run. It may even be necessary, but its not usually sufficient for a truly interesting game. In the end, at some point, even a really good character building system (such as Diablo 2) simply becomes a chore once the novelty wears off at least for most people.
Now if we look at most WoW style EQ-clones. This is exactly what they are lacking. They are not sandbox games, which essentially allow you to write your own story within the limits of the game. And so they provide a very weak and poorly executed story, generally consisting of at best decently written quests of not real consequence. Notable exceptions being games like Guild Wars and LOTRO, but they rely heavily on instancing and give a fairly generic story.
Furthermore for the character building aspects of a game you can usually see the shape of things by the time you hit this 15-20% mark. So you begin to lose the curiosity and urge to create that was driving you before.
So what motivation do we have to "finish the game" so to speak. You are pretty close to your character building goals, you have to put in far more work to make any progress, and there is no real story to keep your interest. In a sandbox game you build your own stuff and your own motivation. However that sort of thing is not for everyone. I personally do not really feel a great desire for sandbow style games. I enjoy them but I much prefer a good story.
Sandbox games are not superior to linear story based games, no matter what anyone says. The popularity of novels should make this apparent to anyone. However they do nicely sidestep the absence of story in an MMORPG environment. They never need to "end" and provide their own story like motivation. Whereas EQ clones promise an end, never provide and often have very little in the way of story telling.
The only MMORPG style game where I really felt the same sort of drive to "see what happens" was in Guild Wars Nightfall. I didn't finish that game for advance my character. I finished because I wanted to know what the deal was with Abbadon. Full disclosure I have never finsihed GW: Prophecies even though I own it.
Thanks, good writing. I really dont mind to work and fight, my 4+ years show that, but somehow the relation between work and fun is just not right for my idea of a sparetim fun in the high end levels.
I am glad I am not the only one with this, heh. Its not that I dont want a max lv char, but somehow I loose the fun.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Hey, Elikal.
I was at a Christmas party with my younger brother and we were discussing this issue.
I think MMORPGs are dead. Dead. We tolerate the lack of 1) world immersion, 2) character customization, 3) deep Questing, and 4) varied content options. Developers cannot deliver what we want: world immersion, above else, to feel and be different, and impact a story/world in a variety of ways. The total experience should be fun, complex, and exciting. I got a job. I am not PAYING YOU 15.00 a month to grind faction or have some teen tell me (after spending three months on a character) that I just got "pwned" in PvP. I am also impatient with organizing and scheduling predictable "raids."
Developers want us to grind faction, raid, or PvP. I am honestly reaching the point of forsaking MMORPGs completely. It is not us. It is them. (And they are not even releasing games finished).
Well I think what you are talking about is a larger issue. Let me give an example and extrapolate.
Today I finished NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Which is essentially a Bio-Ware style (made by Obsidian using BioWare IP) story based, fairly linear game with a number of converstaion comapanion consequences.
A couple weeks ago I also finished Mass Effect.
So here is the thing. It occurred to me that if these were MMORPGs I might not have finished these games. Games like WoW (various EQ clones) are similarly linear to Bio-Ware games. They give you some choice where to go, but it all progresses in a predictable tiered fashion. My main motivation for playing the game is two-fold.
1) I like the gameplay/customization to some degree.
2) I want to finish the story and the story customization.
For me the second one is what really provides the drive, although the first provides me with motivation to due research about and look into the game and come up with cool things I like.
The single player games I look into and do research and come up with builds etc. but do not finish almost always have a story I lost interest in. Either because the story was not good or because it offered very little in the way of interesting customization.
There are a few game where I have finished solely because I wanted to see what a build would do. I did this with a Weapon Master build in Hordes of the Underdark, actually this was a second play through. But that is very rare where as finishing for the story (and sense of accomplishment) is common and almost guaranteed with a good story. Whereas its rare and pretty much complete randomly based on whether I happened to like some novel idea when its based on character building.
The character building aspects adds a lot to a game. It makes it more complex and rich. But its not enough, not usually, not in the long run. It may even be necessary, but its not usually sufficient for a truly interesting game. In the end, at some point, even a really good character building system (such as Diablo 2) simply becomes a chore once the novelty wears off at least for most people.
Now if we look at most WoW style EQ-clones. This is exactly what they are lacking. They are not sandbox games, which essentially allow you to write your own story within the limits of the game. And so they provide a very weak and poorly executed story, generally consisting of at best decently written quests of not real consequence. Notable exceptions being games like Guild Wars and LOTRO, but they rely heavily on instancing and give a fairly generic story.
Furthermore for the character building aspects of a game you can usually see the shape of things by the time you hit this 15-20% mark. So you begin to lose the curiosity and urge to create that was driving you before.
So what motivation do we have to "finish the game" so to speak. You are pretty close to your character building goals, you have to put in far more work to make any progress, and there is no real story to keep your interest. In a sandbox game you build your own stuff and your own motivation. However that sort of thing is not for everyone. I personally do not really feel a great desire for sandbow style games. I enjoy them but I much prefer a good story.
Sandbox games are not superior to linear story based games, no matter what anyone says. The popularity of novels should make this apparent to anyone. However they do nicely sidestep the absence of story in an MMORPG environment. They never need to "end" and provide their own story like motivation. Whereas EQ clones promise an end, never provide and often have very little in the way of story telling.
The only MMORPG style game where I really felt the same sort of drive to "see what happens" was in Guild Wars Nightfall. I didn't finish that game for advance my character. I finished because I wanted to know what the deal was with Abbadon. Full disclosure I have never finsihed GW: Prophecies even though I own it.
I really enjoyed reading what you wrote.An opportunity for developers for MMORPGs to seize upon is player-customized content. It is why I enjoyed Vampire the Masquerade so much in addition to NWN 1.
As you mentioned, character development (customization) is crucially important in MMORPGs. But I do not think that developers have the interest in that any more. Look at WoW or LotR: linear, faction-grinding, forced-raiding, etc. It is not why a majority of people play these games. Community interaction is important, but equally important if not more so is a sense of impacting the world, customizing a truly unique character, and perhaps even creating content.
-----
WoW and fast food = commercial successes.
I neither play WoW nor eat fast food.
I never made it to Levelcap in any game apart from Guildwars. But in Gw you reach levelcap very quickly, and then have to grind the same instances over and over for items and kill some bosses for elite-skills. Without those, you are widely considered useless.
When i reached the point that more and more groups refused grouping with me, because i didnt have item XY or skill XZ required for standard-build ZYX, i instantly quit. I hate doing things in a game that are that tiresome like grinding for things to find a group.
But, unfortunately, nearly all games require grind to advance to engame, where the fun apparently is. Or should be. Whatever..
Even in Eve-Online there is a form of grind. You do have more options, you can even completely avoid it. But it IS there, and there are even people who seem to like it.
Maybe the problem with me refusing to level/grind to the top is, that i do not WANT to have "t3h ubar-gear" so i can look down on the "newbs". I want to play. Being the best is not of interest for me, so grinding to max isnt a goal to me.
Honestly, I can’t understand why you don’t want to level cap your characters. Probably, you are not enjoying the gameplay of your class/character, so find a character you like to play
The only thing that I can tell is that without a max level character (in games where you can actually level up to max level – not like most Korean MMOs) you have missed a huge part of the game; from my point of view, the most important the exciting part of it. I usually rush to hit max level, then relax and play the endgame content.
I think you hit it right on the head though, early on leveling is somewhat fun, but when you hit the later levels it feels like more of a grind. The only MMO were it was the same for me no matter what level was Planetside.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
I have been playing mmorpgs since M59 and UO launched and have played every mmorpg to date since (minus WWIIO).
What the OP is talking about is something that i like to call "The Unfun Conundrum of the Late Game Humdrum."
Although I did max some characters in some games in my early years of gaming (UO/EQ1/some MUDs) I have also fallen into exactly what the OP talks about at times. For me, after about 70% of a games levels and/or content, I really need it to have a strong, great community and economy for me to survive those final levels to the end. An incredible guild + a strong player driven economy + fun late game content = I usually max a character
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all
That's wrong. You shouldn't have to endure who knows how many levels to get to the 'good part'. A view from the top isn't gonna make a crap game any less crappy. I had more on this.. but I forgot it when my browser glitched.
I've been playing Wow ona and off since beta. My highest lvl char is a whopping 58. I have literally dozens of chars in the 20-40 range, but just can't bring myself to cap one.
Same with most other mmo's, just can't seem to bring myself to "beat" em.
I've seen a lot of people levelgrind to max, at which point they soon become bored and leave the game they did it in.
...grats, you achieved your own boredom!
It occurs to me, just now, that maybe the point of MMORPGs I believe in is something most players and developers haven't even thought of, and that's why the "point" is missed so often and blatantly: Being fundamentally different from single-player games.
What I mean by that is, due to the opportunity for social connections, people can play massively-multiplayer games much longer than single-player games. So, to my logic, that implies they should be designed to support that potential, therefore they should be capable of perpetual gameplay, ergo complete departure from the gameplay model of a beginning followed by a middle followed by an end.
So it has always been puzzling to me when people talk about endgame. But in reality, "Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game" nowhere stipulates a need for difference from that particular aspect of its single-player counterpart/originator genres.
No more wonder why people treat MMORPGs like single-player games, attempting to run through and "beat" them linearly, with developers supporting this tendency with features and mechanics designed by equally linear thinking.
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In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on August 13, 2008.
Ultimately, the level system for MMOs is broken. Levels work in PnP because they're very few of them, and each level actually expands your character's class abilities (A level 20 cleric in a DnD campaign is pretty damn powerful compared to a level 5 cleric if you follow the default campaign rules...). In an MMO, having to level to expand your role as a given character class often seems self-defeating. If I'm a cleric, I should have to learn to use my healing skills and spells, improving them through use, so that my heal spell is the same healing spell I had at the start, but it can heal much better now, possibly with some nice deity based bonus. All in all, I'm a firm believer than the level system needs to be replaced with a more robust skill proficiency system, where individual use of certain skills and abilities improve their base stats, and not this leveling tripe. In short, levels are for PnP and CRPGs (single player), not MMOs.
-- Brede
Great topic Elkial !
Also some great intelligent responses
I myself never reached max level in any of MMOs. Never , none of them.
I think Gestalt puts it very inteligently , something i never managed to explain myself. I always thought i am quitting at the moment "there is nothing new to see"
And this so called "End Game"
So aptly called , because the game actually ended, and you are just hanging there because there is actually nothing else left to do with your max level character. It is a bad joke.
Just like when Bioware say that you can continue playing Mass Effect (or baldurs gate) after you finish the storyline.
Simply put , friends and fans of MMOrpg's - we are being cheated. The MMORPGs are not what they are supposed to be...
And to explain my idea , i will make a new post (not to interfere with this topic)
always have the same problem unless I join a guild by that point, or play with RL buddies.
Oh and the whole "mmorpgs are dead" thing.. sooo wrong, but sooo not worth anybodies time to explain it to people for the upteenth time >.>
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
after 6 or so years, I had to change it a little...