I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs.
Problem is, MMO's don't require much of those skills either. It's more along the lines of: learn which six buttons to click, then build your character and get uber gear. Even in PvP, it takes a limitied amount of those skills. In PvE, well, a retarded monkey could be successful at PvE in most MMO's...
Then why is there such a noticeable difference between what good players can do and what not so good players can do?
I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs. A lot of the "twitch mechanics" kill the immersiveness for me. Being able to jump to avoid some explosion damage is just silly. From reading your post, it seems that you would much happier if you stuck with MMOFPS. I do not believe that MMORPGs are going to have the mechanics that you enjoy.
QFT
Give me a skill based MMO (by that I mean skill systems like old UO, SWG, Oblivion) but you can keep your twitch "action" gaming. I play real "skill" games like Halo for that. I like my MMO with RPG in it. Or should I say I like my RPGs to be MMOs? Hmm.....
OMFG, how many times must I say this... Did I not mention Oblivion earlier? Read my posts before you comment please. Kyntor, would this type of gaming not require more situational awareness then any others? Would it somehow take out the strategy? Would your position in the battle not make a difference? I think all these things would be simply amplified. In WoW, if your in the middle of a mob, it doesnt make a difference if someone is infront of or behind you. They still do the same damage. In this game, you can parry the people infront of you while always trying to keep your back protected too. And why not be able to aviod damage? In oblivion, can you not move out of the way to dodge fireballs? Isnt it fighting like that that makes people love oblivion? If you just sat there and traded blows and the fireballs follow you everywhere like in WoW, how fun would oblivion be. I will say it one last time. Please read my posts before you open your mouths. My original post had many, many iffy ideas. If you took the time to read what else I have said, you would see how it is possible to back some of those ideas up...
EDIT: btw, this is my last post, this thread, like so many others, has lost focus and turned to flaming, congrats...
For me its other way around i dont get the punisment in real life so i want punishment in game robbed clean and laughed at. Get real man its only a game, the funs is in open pvp games bordem comes when you play carebear games with no risk, all save play, when you start playing that kind of games, your dead already:P
Exactly, that's my point. It's a game. I don't want games to punish me, I want to have fun. If you're enjoying games that punish you; well, enjoy them! And please, can we stop with that carebear crap? Just because I'm not too much in to Open PVP does not make you any better or 1337.
Whether or not it's twitch based I would like some sort of skill in the MMORPGs. The bottom line is that they are all equally boring because combat is so brain dead monotonous. I wish that I could play games that didn't make me feel like I was beating up on pre-schoolers all day.
But then again that's how MMORPGs work. Everyone is a winner so everyone feels like their time is well invested. It's easy to feel like you accomplished something and I think that is especially true for first time MMO Goers. Once you've played through literally the entire game list here on MMORPG (plus the obscure ones they don't always post) then you just feel like it's all a waste of time. Games may be a waste of time in and of themselves but they're supposed to be fun. Unfortunately the biggest aspect of these games is always a poorly done combat system.
Exactly, that's my point. It's a game. I don't want games to punish me, I want to have fun. If you're enjoying games that punish you; well, enjoy them! And please, can we stop with that carebear crap? Just because I'm not too much in to Open PVP does not make you any better or 1337.
It's a game, remember? ;c)
If you don't have a problem with beeing a carebear, I don't see a reason why other people would. It still doesen't change the fact you are one.
I actually can't belive it took me this long to think of the game. Why not go check out Hellgate London? sure it has some minor issues but a good 80% of all your dmg is gunna be fully determined by your actions and your skill (persay) .
Fact is i'm not against those kind of games, Crap i'm looking foward to AoC However the thing that would kill a game like that to me, it would require massive amounts of server side useage, thus leading to lag, and PvP would be a dead thing if you have more then say 20 people in an area because people would be skipping all over, or the zone would just crash (Swg anyone?).
These are the kind of games that would look amazing on paper, but if you ever stop to think what it would take to make/play one especially if you add in raiding or large scale pvp your looking at a recipe for diaster because 90% of servers out there can't handle that kind of load.
Exactly, that's my point. It's a game. I don't want games to punish me, I want to have fun. If you're enjoying games that punish you; well, enjoy them! And please, can we stop with that carebear crap? Just because I'm not too much in to Open PVP does not make you any better or 1337.
It's a game, remember? ;c)
If you don't have a problem with beeing a carebear, I don't see a reason why other people would. It still doesen't change the fact you are one.
It's just a game, remember?
Gotta love when people try to bait each other on the forums with the carebear arguement. With out said carebears even on PvP servers where would all your crafted gear come from? Where would your useable regents come from? Really in 90% of the games out there is carebears on open PvP servers that keep those servers a float. So, honestly think before you open your mouth on that kinda stuff.
And no, don't even try to tell me you know someone who considers themself a hardcore pvper and they are willing to sit and craft to max lvl and gather all the crap needed to make there upgraded gear. Because your either gunna be full of it, or there not really a hardcore pvper.
Welcome to the MMO market, all styles of gamer need each other. You need Carebears for the goods they provide so you can PvP, Cearbears need elitiests so they can sell there goods. And Everyone is happy. And yes, i refered to you as an elitiest Not a pvper. All the true pvpers i know, go in beat the hell out of a person don't say a word and walk away. Only the lower tier of pvpers are the ones that feel the need to talk crap or to post on forums saying "Omg your such a carebear" or "Omg i just pwned you".
I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs. A lot of the "twitch mechanics" kill the immersiveness for me. Being able to jump to avoid some explosion damage is just silly. From reading your post, it seems that you would much happier if you stuck with MMOFPS. I do not believe that MMORPGs are going to have the mechanics that you enjoy.
Although you made a great distinction, a MMOFPS (such as Planetside) seems to reward "situational awareness, positional awareness, prepararedness, etc." more so than twitch skiils.
Granted, being a FPS, the game does reward twitch skills, but that can only go so far in a game that has the movement speed, lack of bunny-hopping, and cone-of-fire increase tuned specifically to avoid twitchers.
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
OMFG, how many times must I say this... Did I not mention Oblivion earlier? Read my posts before you comment please. Kyntor, would this type of gaming not require more situational awareness then any others? Would it somehow take out the strategy? Would your position in the battle not make a difference? I think all these things would be simply amplified. In WoW, if your in the middle of a mob, it doesnt make a difference if someone is infront of or behind you. They still do the same damage. In this game, you can parry the people infront of you while always trying to keep your back protected too. And why not be able to aviod damage? In oblivion, can you not move out of the way to dodge fireballs? Isnt it fighting like that that makes people love oblivion? If you just sat there and traded blows and the fireballs follow you everywhere like in WoW, how fun would oblivion be. I will say it one last time. Please read my posts before you open your mouths. My original post had many, many iffy ideas. If you took the time to read what else I have said, you would see how it is possible to back some of those ideas up... EDIT: btw, this is my last post, this thread, like so many others, has lost focus and turned to flaming, congrats...
I depends a lot on the specific game, but "twitch" by itself neither encourages or discourages situational awareness. However, I do believe that it encourages people to be reactive instead of proactive. I believe a good game should encourage you to plan ahead, adapt, and be creative instead of encouraging you to execute a memorized set of moves everytime you are attacked.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
OMFG, how many times must I say this... Did I not mention Oblivion earlier? Read my posts before you comment please. Kyntor, would this type of gaming not require more situational awareness then any others? Would it somehow take out the strategy? Would your position in the battle not make a difference? I think all these things would be simply amplified. In WoW, if your in the middle of a mob, it doesnt make a difference if someone is infront of or behind you. They still do the same damage. In this game, you can parry the people infront of you while always trying to keep your back protected too. And why not be able to aviod damage? In oblivion, can you not move out of the way to dodge fireballs? Isnt it fighting like that that makes people love oblivion? If you just sat there and traded blows and the fireballs follow you everywhere like in WoW, how fun would oblivion be. I will say it one last time. Please read my posts before you open your mouths. My original post had many, many iffy ideas. If you took the time to read what else I have said, you would see how it is possible to back some of those ideas up... EDIT: btw, this is my last post, this thread, like so many others, has lost focus and turned to flaming, congrats...
Chill...
I like the skill + level up system in Oblivion. I don't like that you have to aim/dodge/block and click every time you swing your weapon...
It's RPG skill vs. player skill. RPG skill as in "you use a sword, your sword skill goes up." Player skill as in "you click the mouse + the strafe key + jump at the exact right time to hit your opponent."
I like RPG combat systems, hidden dice rolls and stat tweaking etc. etc. but I also like skill based advancement.
Oblivion has FPS combat + skill based advancement (though someone said Morrowind's system was deeper)
I don't like "twitch" FPS combat in a MMO.
I did read the original post and all others after it. I'm NOT talking about the same thing you are.
These days prepareness is not realy a skill anymore, go over to sites learn walkthroughs, many players these days have second pc next to main pc and just look up what do next on these sites i dont see that as a skil.
This is true to some extent. The multitude of website have really trivialized intelligence gathering and being prepared. However, there are ways to get around this problem. There should be very simple ways to code in some surprises. You could also use equipment in order to encourage preperation. Maybe you could make armor (breasplate, leggings, helm, etc.) non-situational and jewelry (rings, earings, charms, amulets, etc.) situational. These are just a couple of examples. I am sure that others can think of a lot more.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs.
Problem is, MMO's don't require much of those skills either. It's more along the lines of: learn which six buttons to click, then build your character and get uber gear. Even in PvP, it takes a limitied amount of those skills. In PvE, well, a retarded monkey could be successful at PvE in most MMO's...
Then why is there such a noticeable difference between what good players can do and what not so good players can do?
JMO, but, I don't think there is much of a difference. It seems like there are really only three types of players (skillwise) in MMO's:
1) The Clueless Players
2) The Decent Players
3) The Good Players
Thats it. Sure, theres a big difference between a good player and a clueless player, but not much of a difference between a good and decent player. Theres just not much room within the system for outstanding play. No matter what, you're always severely restricted by your avatars stats, level, skills, etc.
Contrast that with FPS or RTS (just assuming here since I've never been into RTS) where there are 4) Great Players and even 5) Ridiculously Great Players. If the game really does involve a significant amount of skill, you can go WAY in over your head and still come out on top. Thats just not possible in MMO's. Theres always a very narrow range of what your avatar can handle and, once you step outside of that range no amount of "skill" is going to change the outcome.
IMO, the only exceptions to this in MMO's are "group coordination" and PvP. Theres a noticable difference between a PUG and a well orgtanized and well practiced group. However, theres still not much individual skill involved there. As long as the members have the right build and know what to do, they can pretty much get by being just average players. PvP, on the other hand does add some skill into the mix. Not only do you have to know how to play your character, but you also need good awareness and quick reflexes. Still though, you're ultimately restricted (severely) by your avatar. The average player with the higher level/stats/gear will still usually beat the good player with the lower level/stats/gear.
I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs. A lot of the "twitch mechanics" kill the immersiveness for me. Being able to jump to avoid some explosion damage is just silly. From reading your post, it seems that you would much happier if you stuck with MMOFPS. I do not believe that MMORPGs are going to have the mechanics that you enjoy.
Although you made a great distinction, a MMOFPS (such as Planetside) seems to reward "situational awareness, positional awareness, prepararedness, etc." more so than twitch skiils.
Granted, being a FPS, the game does reward twitch skills, but that can only go so far in a game that has the movement speed, lack of bunny-hopping, and cone-of-fire increase tuned specifically to avoid twitchers.
I'd have to agree there. "Tactical" shooters are less twitchy and more heavy into strategy and, yes, tactics. Sure, theres still a good amount of twitch involved, but you do have to think...
AoC sounds promising in the "twitch" department. But yeah I think a mmo with a higher level of twitch skill would be good as it adds an extra level of depth and replayability. I mean while it is fine and dandy many mmos can do without and can stick with an appeal that works(ie the simple low twitch model) it would be appealling for some mmorpgs to experiment with.
In WoW it was irritating that you merely pressed a button to do a fireball , and finding yourself doing that over and over and it gets a bit OCD. But, add a bit more twitch and this is a bit more varied and interesting. For instance in something like Dota there was one healing spell you had to aim, something like that helped Dota be a much more diverse and varied experience in comparison to many of the snoozedoze grouping routines we have in mmos currently. (Sorry this may offend some people but this is just the way I see it, even being in many groups and facing many different situations it does tend to get very stale and repetitive)
Edit: Sorry too much coffee and not too good at structuring stuff
I'm amazed Rakion was not suggested here unless I overlooked it. (I sort of skimmed through the thread XP Plus, I'm new ^^)
It's basically a medieval fps where you have to aim your sword or bow, block, dodge, etc. It's truly great. You'll always return to it while playing other games. There is leveling which gives a slight advantage unless they're like 20 levels higher then you (There's a mode for all levels to have the same stats) but it's mainly skill. All classes are rather balanced with each one having quite a few styles. (The archer is actually kind of powerful, especially when targetted by 2 at once, you're dead without help XP) My favourite classes are ninja and archer =3
Lunia is also a good choice. The movement is somewhat awkward at first but you get used to it. I'm waiting for them to release the 3 other classes. The game is designed to be like the arcade with stages and episodes. The storyline is ok I guess. You use the arrow keys to move and buttons on the keyboard to attack.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
OK the dead horse needs put away how many topics can you guys post about this crap to whine about? You skill based people are evidently the whining minority and i say this based on the success of lvl based games and the utter failure of sandbox and skill based games. So please knock off the skill based i want stuff when that genre s profitable then a game will be made for it untill then live with what is out or find a game you enjoy playing
JMO, but, I don't think there is much of a difference. It seems like there are really only three types of players (skillwise) in MMO's: 1) The Clueless Players 2) The Decent Players 3) The Good Players Thats it. Sure, theres a big difference between a good player and a clueless player, but not much of a difference between a good and decent player. Theres just not much room within the system for outstanding play. No matter what, you're always severely restricted by your avatars stats, level, skills, etc.
I disagree. In fact there is plenty of room. The problem is that people tend to perceive things based on their own level of skill.
When people do see players better then themselves rather then admit they are just not as good they fall back on the excuse that “they spent more time/have better gear”. This allows people to nurse their ego and hide from the fact that someone else is simply better then they are.
This means everyone, no matter how good/bad they are will assume everyone who beats them just spends more time and isn’t better then they are and everyone they beat isn’t as good as they are. This encourages the false belief that “there are two types of players, the people who suck and the people who are clueless”
Originally posted by Tatum
Contrast that with FPS or RTS (just assuming here since I've never been into RTS) where there are 4) Great Players and even 5) Ridiculously Great Players. If the game really does involve a significant amount of skill, you can go WAY in over your head and still come out on top. Thats just not possible in MMO's. Theres always a very narrow range of what your avatar can handle and, once you step outside of that range no amount of "skill" is going to change the outcome.
One of the primary states maintained on the top competitive RTS players is “clicks per min”. At the highest levels of play as long as you are in the ballpark your strategic abilities fall away and whoever clicks the fastest will typically win. Interestingly, at the highest levels of FPS play you see the opposite, everyone has similar hand/eye/aim skills and it’s their ability to think tactically that makes all the difference. The problem is that someone who is just as good tactically but doesn’t have the hand/eye/aim skills still have no chance of competing.
I disagree. In fact there is plenty of room. The problem is that people tend to perceive things based on their own level of skill.
When people do see players better then themselves rather then admit they are just not as good they fall back on the excuse that “they spent more time/have better gear”. This allows people to nurse their ego and hide from the fact that someone else is simply better then they are.
This means everyone, no matter how good/bad they are will assume everyone who beats them just spends more time and isn’t better then they are and everyone they beat isn’t as good as they are. This encourages the false belief that “there are two types of players, the people who suck and the people who are clueless”
You'd have to explain the game mechanics behind this, because honestly, I've never seen it. Really, theres only so much you can do in an MMO when it comes to game play and at that point, it's all up to your avatar.
And, I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between player skill and avatar gear/level.
Originally posted by Kyntor I think you are confusing "twitch" with "skill." I have always considered skills to be things such as stretegic thinking, situation awarness, positional awareness, preparedness, etc. These are the type of skills that should be the focus of MMORPGs. A lot of the "twitch mechanics" kill the immersiveness for me. Being able to jump to avoid some explosion damage is just silly. From reading your post, it seems that you would much happier if you stuck with MMOFPS. I do not believe that MMORPGs are going to have the mechanics that you enjoy.
being able to jump to avoid a projectile will mean a Level 1 character does not die in one hit when confronted by a Level 50.
being able to dodge an explosion will mean PVPers can "Use Terrain For Cover" to avoid death
being able to dodge an explosion means "zerging" is way less effective and the decisions and abilities of one man can make a bigger impact
being able to dodge places less emphasis on "character skill" and more on "player skill" meaning that Class imbalances are less glaring. This means a Warrior does not have to die when confronted by a Mage
Just one little thing like 'realtime dodging' can give us so much. I suppose it is 'twitch' but it also involves "skill"
Comments
Problem is, MMO's don't require much of those skills either. It's more along the lines of: learn which six buttons to click, then build your character and get uber gear. Even in PvP, it takes a limitied amount of those skills. In PvE, well, a retarded monkey could be successful at PvE in most MMO's...
Then why is there such a noticeable difference between what good players can do and what not so good players can do?
Give me a skill based MMO (by that I mean skill systems like old UO, SWG, Oblivion) but you can keep your twitch "action" gaming. I play real "skill" games like Halo for that. I like my MMO with RPG in it. Or should I say I like my RPGs to be MMOs? Hmm.....
OMFG, how many times must I say this... Did I not mention Oblivion earlier? Read my posts before you comment please. Kyntor, would this type of gaming not require more situational awareness then any others? Would it somehow take out the strategy? Would your position in the battle not make a difference? I think all these things would be simply amplified. In WoW, if your in the middle of a mob, it doesnt make a difference if someone is infront of or behind you. They still do the same damage. In this game, you can parry the people infront of you while always trying to keep your back protected too. And why not be able to aviod damage? In oblivion, can you not move out of the way to dodge fireballs? Isnt it fighting like that that makes people love oblivion? If you just sat there and traded blows and the fireballs follow you everywhere like in WoW, how fun would oblivion be. I will say it one last time. Please read my posts before you open your mouths. My original post had many, many iffy ideas. If you took the time to read what else I have said, you would see how it is possible to back some of those ideas up...
EDIT: btw, this is my last post, this thread, like so many others, has lost focus and turned to flaming, congrats...
Asheron's Call 1 is for you than
Exactly, that's my point. It's a game. I don't want games to punish me, I want to have fun. If you're enjoying games that punish you; well, enjoy them! And please, can we stop with that carebear crap? Just because I'm not too much in to Open PVP does not make you any better or 1337.
It's a game, remember? ;c)
Whether or not it's twitch based I would like some sort of skill in the MMORPGs. The bottom line is that they are all equally boring because combat is so brain dead monotonous. I wish that I could play games that didn't make me feel like I was beating up on pre-schoolers all day.
But then again that's how MMORPGs work. Everyone is a winner so everyone feels like their time is well invested. It's easy to feel like you accomplished something and I think that is especially true for first time MMO Goers. Once you've played through literally the entire game list here on MMORPG (plus the obscure ones they don't always post) then you just feel like it's all a waste of time. Games may be a waste of time in and of themselves but they're supposed to be fun. Unfortunately the biggest aspect of these games is always a poorly done combat system.
It's just a game, remember?
I actually can't belive it took me this long to think of the game. Why not go check out Hellgate London? sure it has some minor issues but a good 80% of all your dmg is gunna be fully determined by your actions and your skill (persay) .
Fact is i'm not against those kind of games, Crap i'm looking foward to AoC However the thing that would kill a game like that to me, it would require massive amounts of server side useage, thus leading to lag, and PvP would be a dead thing if you have more then say 20 people in an area because people would be skipping all over, or the zone would just crash (Swg anyone?).
These are the kind of games that would look amazing on paper, but if you ever stop to think what it would take to make/play one especially if you add in raiding or large scale pvp your looking at a recipe for diaster because 90% of servers out there can't handle that kind of load.
There's a game I found on Youtube called Lunia. The gameplay looks pretty interesting.
If you don't have a problem with beeing a carebear, I don't see a reason why other people would. It still doesen't change the fact you are one.It's just a game, remember?
Gotta love when people try to bait each other on the forums with the carebear arguement. With out said carebears even on PvP servers where would all your crafted gear come from? Where would your useable regents come from? Really in 90% of the games out there is carebears on open PvP servers that keep those servers a float. So, honestly think before you open your mouth on that kinda stuff.
And no, don't even try to tell me you know someone who considers themself a hardcore pvper and they are willing to sit and craft to max lvl and gather all the crap needed to make there upgraded gear. Because your either gunna be full of it, or there not really a hardcore pvper.
Welcome to the MMO market, all styles of gamer need each other. You need Carebears for the goods they provide so you can PvP, Cearbears need elitiests so they can sell there goods. And Everyone is happy. And yes, i refered to you as an elitiest Not a pvper. All the true pvpers i know, go in beat the hell out of a person don't say a word and walk away. Only the lower tier of pvpers are the ones that feel the need to talk crap or to post on forums saying "Omg your such a carebear" or "Omg i just pwned you".
*Self edit to save the mods time*
Granted, being a FPS, the game does reward twitch skills, but that can only go so far in a game that has the movement speed, lack of bunny-hopping, and cone-of-fire increase tuned specifically to avoid twitchers.
MMO games played or tested: EQ, DAoC, Archlord, Auto Assault, CoH, CoV, EQ2, EVE, Guild Wars, Hellgate: London, Linneage II, LOTRO, MxO, Planetside, SWG, Sword of the New World, Tabula Rasa, Vanguard, WWIIOL, WOW, Age of Conan
I depends a lot on the specific game, but "twitch" by itself neither encourages or discourages situational awareness. However, I do believe that it encourages people to be reactive instead of proactive. I believe a good game should encourage you to plan ahead, adapt, and be creative instead of encouraging you to execute a memorized set of moves everytime you are attacked.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
I like the skill + level up system in Oblivion. I don't like that you have to aim/dodge/block and click every time you swing your weapon...
It's RPG skill vs. player skill. RPG skill as in "you use a sword, your sword skill goes up." Player skill as in "you click the mouse + the strafe key + jump at the exact right time to hit your opponent."
I like RPG combat systems, hidden dice rolls and stat tweaking etc. etc. but I also like skill based advancement.
Oblivion has FPS combat + skill based advancement (though someone said Morrowind's system was deeper)
I don't like "twitch" FPS combat in a MMO.
I did read the original post and all others after it. I'm NOT talking about the same thing you are.
Chill...
This is true to some extent. The multitude of website have really trivialized intelligence gathering and being prepared. However, there are ways to get around this problem. There should be very simple ways to code in some surprises. You could also use equipment in order to encourage preperation. Maybe you could make armor (breasplate, leggings, helm, etc.) non-situational and jewelry (rings, earings, charms, amulets, etc.) situational. These are just a couple of examples. I am sure that others can think of a lot more.
"Those who dislike things based only on the fact that they are popular are just as shallow and superficial as those who only like them for the same reason."
Problem is, MMO's don't require much of those skills either. It's more along the lines of: learn which six buttons to click, then build your character and get uber gear. Even in PvP, it takes a limitied amount of those skills. In PvE, well, a retarded monkey could be successful at PvE in most MMO's...
Then why is there such a noticeable difference between what good players can do and what not so good players can do?
JMO, but, I don't think there is much of a difference. It seems like there are really only three types of players (skillwise) in MMO's:
1) The Clueless Players
2) The Decent Players
3) The Good Players
Thats it. Sure, theres a big difference between a good player and a clueless player, but not much of a difference between a good and decent player. Theres just not much room within the system for outstanding play. No matter what, you're always severely restricted by your avatars stats, level, skills, etc.
Contrast that with FPS or RTS (just assuming here since I've never been into RTS) where there are 4) Great Players and even 5) Ridiculously Great Players. If the game really does involve a significant amount of skill, you can go WAY in over your head and still come out on top. Thats just not possible in MMO's. Theres always a very narrow range of what your avatar can handle and, once you step outside of that range no amount of "skill" is going to change the outcome.
IMO, the only exceptions to this in MMO's are "group coordination" and PvP. Theres a noticable difference between a PUG and a well orgtanized and well practiced group. However, theres still not much individual skill involved there. As long as the members have the right build and know what to do, they can pretty much get by being just average players. PvP, on the other hand does add some skill into the mix. Not only do you have to know how to play your character, but you also need good awareness and quick reflexes. Still though, you're ultimately restricted (severely) by your avatar. The average player with the higher level/stats/gear will still usually beat the good player with the lower level/stats/gear.
Granted, being a FPS, the game does reward twitch skills, but that can only go so far in a game that has the movement speed, lack of bunny-hopping, and cone-of-fire increase tuned specifically to avoid twitchers.
I'd have to agree there. "Tactical" shooters are less twitchy and more heavy into strategy and, yes, tactics. Sure, theres still a good amount of twitch involved, but you do have to think...
AoC sounds promising in the "twitch" department. But yeah I think a mmo with a higher level of twitch skill would be good as it adds an extra level of depth and replayability. I mean while it is fine and dandy many mmos can do without and can stick with an appeal that works(ie the simple low twitch model) it would be appealling for some mmorpgs to experiment with.
In WoW it was irritating that you merely pressed a button to do a fireball , and finding yourself doing that over and over and it gets a bit OCD. But, add a bit more twitch and this is a bit more varied and interesting. For instance in something like Dota there was one healing spell you had to aim, something like that helped Dota be a much more diverse and varied experience in comparison to many of the snoozedoze grouping routines we have in mmos currently.
(Sorry this may offend some people but this is just the way I see it, even being in many groups and facing many different situations it does tend to get very stale and repetitive)
Edit: Sorry too much coffee and not too good at structuring stuff
Runescape...
Syphon, you want Lunia my friend! http://global.lunia.com/
I'm amazed Rakion was not suggested here unless I overlooked it. (I sort of skimmed through the thread XP Plus, I'm new ^^)
It's basically a medieval fps where you have to aim your sword or bow, block, dodge, etc. It's truly great. You'll always return to it while playing other games. There is leveling which gives a slight advantage unless they're like 20 levels higher then you (There's a mode for all levels to have the same stats) but it's mainly skill. All classes are rather balanced with each one having quite a few styles. (The archer is actually kind of powerful, especially when targetted by 2 at once, you're dead without help XP) My favourite classes are ninja and archer =3
Lunia is also a good choice. The movement is somewhat awkward at first but you get used to it. I'm waiting for them to release the 3 other classes. The game is designed to be like the arcade with stages and episodes. The storyline is ok I guess. You use the arrow keys to move and buttons on the keyboard to attack.
Planetside.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
We had a good one it was SWG, but good things always end!
Ajax
OK the dead horse needs put away how many topics can you guys post about this crap to whine about? You skill based people are evidently the whining minority and i say this based on the success of lvl based games and the utter failure of sandbox and skill based games. So please knock off the skill based i want stuff when that genre s profitable then a game will be made for it untill then live with what is out or find a game you enjoy playing
One of the primary states maintained on the top competitive RTS players is “clicks per min”. At the highest levels of play as long as you are in the ballpark your strategic abilities fall away and whoever clicks the fastest will typically win. Interestingly, at the highest levels of FPS play you see the opposite, everyone has similar hand/eye/aim skills and it’s their ability to think tactically that makes all the difference. The problem is that someone who is just as good tactically but doesn’t have the hand/eye/aim skills still have no chance of competing.
And, I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between player skill and avatar gear/level.
being able to jump to avoid a projectile will mean a Level 1 character does not die in one hit when confronted by a Level 50.
being able to dodge an explosion will mean PVPers can "Use Terrain For Cover" to avoid death
being able to dodge an explosion means "zerging" is way less effective and the decisions and abilities of one man can make a bigger impact
being able to dodge places less emphasis on "character skill" and more on "player skill" meaning that Class imbalances are less glaring. This means a Warrior does not have to die when confronted by a Mage
Just one little thing like 'realtime dodging' can give us so much. I suppose it is 'twitch' but it also involves "skill"