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"What we have here is a failure to communicate"
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
I'm thinking of two things. The first is Mr. Smedley's comments about players summits: "Once we got past talking about a rollback, we could have a discussion," or something to that effect were his words.
He wasn't willing to communicate with players about their actual concerns. It's as much as saying, "no we can't talk about what's really bothering you, and what you would like done, but I'm open to discuss anything else."
Frankly, that's meaningless. It's not just a failure to communicate, it's a refusal to communicate. On another level though, he invites player feedback. So, of course, people will try to raise what is still their main concern, he refused to listen over and over again, and the cycle kept repeating itself--and people wonder why this issue won't die. There are so many self-perpetuating negative cycles involved it would take an entire book on dysfunctional communication just to identify them.
The second thing I'm thinking of is related. Since day one of the NGE, some players (and former SOE staff) have said, "hey you can't do this, it's wrong and doomed to failure." The other side of this "conversation" has been, "it's done, get over it, like it or shut up." These posts and comments started going back and forth in 2005, and because of a failure or refusal to communicate they continue today. Sad.
Comments
It wasn't never us the vets unwillingly to communicate and still today many of us would turn back if anyone of them listen and turn on classic server. But numbness, arrogance, bossy people at $OE make a communication impossible.
What are $OE attempts to get us back ,anyone remember these cummunication manager this Greypoon ? "i reach you cynic dissidents my hand for to comeback to the nge server " anyone. Personally i /spit at such given hand because i have the right to ask for more and if we consider the progress in last 2,5 years meanwhile i deserve much much more ....
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
SOE's form of communication has always been "we talk, you listen, you speak only when asked, and if you don't give us the answer we want we will ban you".
What could have been explored? All the freakin bugs that were added to the game, when bugs were the "real" concern of most players to begin with. All the lost progress, dismantled interdependency, broken left over pieces of old partly deleted quests, etc. The misdirection by SOE/LA regarding the implementation of profession revamps and new items and features in the new expansion that were eliminated by the NGE surprise. The state of the NGE game needed to be thoroughly understood and addressed by SOE, and the state of broken trust needed to be explored and addressed.
Instead, players got stone-walled and SOE decision makers did their best to deny problems, minimize, problems and justify their decisions. The rigidity and defensiveness of SOE/LA reps did not allow the things to be discussed that needed to be discussed. Mind you the vehemence of players played a role, but the emotions were linked to the events that just occured and successful service providers need to be able to listen past that to hear what's really going on (not easy to do, but necessary).
Once the real game and trust issues could actually be explored, then players and SOE/LA could look for ways to rebuild both the game and the trust. As I've highlighted though, this process never occured. It was derailed at the station (pardon the pun).
Now for many, me anyways, it's beyond something I'd like to see fixed. Dealing with SOE in particular was an exercise in futility, so I've made my peace with things as best I could, and I've reinvested in other pursuits.
That is sadly an accurate reflection of what happened to many of us, yes. It illustrates my point very well too I think, thanks Salvaje.
What could have been explored? All the freakin bugs that were added to the game, when bugs were the "real" concern of most players to begin with. All the lost progress, dismantled interdependency, broken left over pieces of old partly deleted quests, etc. The misdirection by SOE/LA regarding the implementation of profession revamps and new items and features in the new expansion that were eliminated by the NGE surprise. The state of the NGE game needed to be thoroughly understood and addressed by SOE, and the state of broken trust needed to be explored and addressed.
Instead, players got stone-walled and SOE decision makers did their best to deny problems, minimize, problems and justify their decisions. The rigidity and defensiveness of SOE/LA reps did not allow the things to be discussed that needed to be discussed. Mind you the vehemence of players played a role, but the emotions were linked to the events that just occured and successful service providers need to be able to listen past that to hear what's really going on (not easy to do, but necessary).
Once the real game and trust issues could actually be explored, then players and SOE/LA could look for ways to rebuild both the game and the trust. As I've highlighted though, this process never occured. It was derailed at the station (pardon the pun).
Now for many, me anyways, it's beyond something I'd like to see fixed. Dealing with SOE in particular was an exercise in futility, so I've made my peace with things as best I could, and I've reinvested in other pursuits.
You don't understand. If they roll-back the game to pre-NGE or even if they introduce a few pre-CU servers, then John Smedley and those around him then and now - from Julio Torres to Dallas Dickinson to Haden Blackman to Nancy Macintyre - will have to acknowledge that they have cost the Sony Group and Lucas Arts tens of millions of dollars. They can't possibly do that.
Another very large problem SOE (and in particular SWG Devs) has is its seige mentality , its them verses us , we are not customers we are the enemy , this I expect is just another reason why there is no communication from their side .
What could have been explored? All the freakin bugs that were added to the game, when bugs were the "real" concern of most players to begin with. All the lost progress, dismantled interdependency, broken left over pieces of old partly deleted quests, etc. The misdirection by SOE/LA regarding the implementation of profession revamps and new items and features in the new expansion that were eliminated by the NGE surprise. The state of the NGE game needed to be thoroughly understood and addressed by SOE, and the state of broken trust needed to be explored and addressed.
Instead, players got stone-walled and SOE decision makers did their best to deny problems, minimize, problems and justify their decisions. The rigidity and defensiveness of SOE/LA reps did not allow the things to be discussed that needed to be discussed. Mind you the vehemence of players played a role, but the emotions were linked to the events that just occured and successful service providers need to be able to listen past that to hear what's really going on (not easy to do, but necessary).
Once the real game and trust issues could actually be explored, then players and SOE/LA could look for ways to rebuild both the game and the trust. As I've highlighted though, this process never occured. It was derailed at the station (pardon the pun).
Now for many, me anyways, it's beyond something I'd like to see fixed. Dealing with SOE in particular was an exercise in futility, so I've made my peace with things as best I could, and I've reinvested in other pursuits.
You don't understand. If they roll-back the game to pre-NGE or even if they introduce a few pre-CU servers, then John Smedley and those around him then and now - from Julio Torres to Dallas Dickinson to Haden Blackman to Nancy Macintyre - will have to acknowledge that they have cost the Sony Group and Lucas Arts tens of millions of dollars. They can't possibly do that.
Yeah I think you're right. I understand that. I think it was a very scarey thing to look at what they did honestly and realize how far wrong things went. I think defensiveness, rigidity, denial and minimization were the preferred alternatives to cold hard reality. If anything you've probably touched on some reasons "why" there was a refusal or failure to communicate.
When you get right down to it corporate anxiety probably plays a big role in decisions like this. Anxiety about losing subscriptions, anxiety about losing profit, losing licences, franchises jobs etc.. Anxiety like that can lead to desperate decisions that are poorly informed. Then the further anxiety created by the poor decisions leads to things like denial and stone-walling. Just thinking out loud I guess.
Mainly I just happened to notice that things never got addressed even via the summits because the issues that players wanted addressed were not allowed on the table. I also happened to notice that "stop-whining" posts started as far back as 2005. They remind me of SOE's approach to the whole fiasco, both a refusal to acknowledge reality and do something about it. Just keep telling people to shut up and eventually they will--that just doesn't work.
That is sadly an accurate reflection of what happened to many of us, yes. It illustrates my point very well too I think, thanks Salvaje.
I wasn't good enough to get banned, but I did have many of my posts deletedMost especially in one of my favorite stomping grounds back then, the GCW forum. You know, back when the GCW forum was really busy and hard to keep your topic on the first page.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Dealing with SOE was always a struggle while trying to enjoy Star Wars Galaxies for three years. It wouldn't have been possible to enjoy those years if the community wasn't so friendly and the gameplay didn't have so much depth.
Regardless of how fun SWG really was, SOE really did an amazing job at screwing the players in the community. I can't recall a single example of SOE doing something the community called for or that the game really needed. The holocrons, lack of support and updates for Jump To Lightspeed, the linear joke that was Kashyyyk, the old man/village. It was only a matter of time until SOE really did something to kill the game.
I won't be paying for another SOE product, published or produced, ever again. Maybe that's a little drastic but after seeing what little they have done with other MMOs they have acquired and the lack of interest they show their communities, I couldn't care less about SOE's future products.
Gee, who could forget that and there is no conflict of interest as well. ---muhahaha, lame.
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
One of the things that got Noob fired was an incident with mass IN GAME account permabans for a certain person. The reason it was done was because of posts on here and another site by that person. When CS was contacted, this was undone, as SOE was afraid that this certain persistent thorn in their side now had grounds for a lawsuit.
And the anger that incident caused had an unintended effect for the victim, in that he finally quit SWG for good and finally found a MMO worthy of a Pre-CU player. EvE.
Communication has always always a problem at SWG. The hiring of ThunderHeart early on as a liason between the players and the devs was an attempt at better communications very early in SWGs run, and despite ongoing efforts to do so, SWG's devs always quickly fell back into familiar patterns of pulling all sorts of gameplay disruptive crap repetatedly without telegraphing any reasoning in doing so to the players.
The thing was, it became obvious early on that the players were a lot more mature and knowledgable than the devs imagined they were...and the devs never adjusted to this realization, or just went on denying it. Which only exacerbated the frustration of the players who resented being treated like mushrooms.
If you'll recall, the communications issues of SWG promted the now apparently discarded "in concept/in design/in testing" policy that all changes to the game were supposed to be subject to, a very public concept specifically implemented to prevent radical, unnannounced changes in the game, and indeed, in any SOE game.
Yet that policy was tossed totally out the window when it came to the NGE. Which meant that the efforts to communicate on the part of SWG management were not done so in good faith. We've seen this pattern over and over again throughout the history of SWG. Greypawn may well have left SWG because of yet another manifestation of the insincerity of SWG's stated policy to communicate major changes in the game well in advance.
CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.
Once a denizen of Ahazi
Putting Thunderhart into community management was a nice gesture, but it was a mistake. He was in no way qualified for such a delicate, customer-facing job. In fairness though, I think few publishers give community management the importance it deserves.
And I doubt the decision to execute the in-concept /in-development feedback loop was made at the same level as the decision to pull the trigger on the NGE. I imagine it went down like this:
SWG Team Mtg.
Your missing the point afro. Yes... a lot of CR from companies drop the ball many times. But the difference is that those companies at least picked that ball back up and ran with it, apologizing in the process and fixing the issue. SoE has not done that at all... it's just one blunder after another.. excuse after excuse... never a .. im sorry. let us make this right... just "I DONT WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT!" like the summit mentioned above.
Im sorry afro but SoE's PR (at least with SWG) is the biggest failure in the history of the industry. I really don't need proof. Its all around me. Its what is making the majority of us vets mad at SoE even to this day. Its why we are STILL discussing this crap.
Yet they STILL don't get it and they STILL wont pick that ball back up.
"Do not fret! Your captain is about to enter Valhalla!" - General Beatrix of Alexandria
"The acquisition of knowledge is of use to the intellect, for nothing can be loved or hated without first being known." - Leo da Vinci
First off get a couple things out of the way.
I'm not really interested in debating or fighting about the game. Just going to post some observation from my point of view... which in the end for *me* is just how I see it.
When they did the CU and the NGE from *my* in game experience they lost a lot of people. Now I'm not trying to say the game is dead as its still running so imho its making a profit (even if its $1 a month).
What I am saying is from my point of view they ended up with less than they had.
Now from my supposed logical point of view.. If they had ended up with MORE then I could understand their responses.
But the biggest thing that pissed me off about the entire thing (yes even more than the changes).
Was when Smedley talked to people at Fan Faire and said...
"Now we won't be discussing rollbacks or classic servers"
What was there left to talk about?
If you ask a vast majority of your player (or the players you had) what they want. For the most part they respond with the same answer... and you say that's nice but how about..
Then you are out of touch.
*I* don't need SWG.. I post here because I used to play or I'm bored and passing the time.
*I* don't need any game, movie or other pay to use recreation.
If you are a FOR PROFIT company you should want myself and others to pay you.
When I say I'll pay for A and you offer me B.. I'm not going to pay you.
Its a pretty simple equation...
If they offered me what I wanted I would go back.
If they are going to be like almost every other company and offer me things I don't want. I just simply have no reason to be a customer.
Has nothing to do with SOE... its just a pretty simple thing to figure out. (like I say if they had a couple million subs now.. .I'd understand the idea of not wanting to give me what i ask for.. or wanted).
To Antariouis, yes that was what I wonder all those years along. What prevents SoE from bringing up a classic server. DAoC does that. The only thing I can figure out, is that SoE operates with LA's IP, while Mythic has DAOC as its own IP. Unless the SoE leaders are totally nuts who does not care about making money, I would suggest LA be the real thorn against a classic server.
Then the circular reason, why would LA not want more money with a classic server? Maybe something else is ... circular again.
Can both SoE and LA be nuts? Maybe but not that likely. This will remain a mystery forever I suppose. After all, history is a long story of stupidity of human beings, when viewed from a detached position years later.
sandboxes dont work. Thats what smed said was the one thing he learned from swg. And EQ2 failed in korea because people like to smoke while they play games. Smed.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Considering that EVE, which is a pure sandbox, has more subscribers than any SOE game, I'd say that Smed is wrong.
Not that this is news.
There are times when you really have to question the things Smed has said and done. Maybe there is another reason behind his statements and actions other than a total ignorance of his customer base. I would really hope there is but I have my doubts. To put your own foolish pride in front of what was at that time his current customer base and meal ticket seems beyond foolish. We paid money for a game and then he changed it so we all left. You would think at that point he would have said f*ck my pride I want the money. Nope not Smed.
Its been a strange far less traveled road that SOE has taken with SWG. A lot of bad choices. One of the most recognized IP's in the world turned in to the joke of the MMO world. The ultimate what not to do with your game lesson. Its not that I hate SWG,SOE or even good old Smed. I just hope some other developer can come a long and bring some dignity back to this IP as far as the MMORPG genre goes.
Its a sad day when elves and gnomes beat the crap out of the Star Wars Universe. Baby Jesus is crying.
When it's the majority of the population, I think you'd better consider it a revolt, and act accordingly.
And for the record: I have ALWAYS held LA as much accountable for the CU/NGE debacle as SOE, THEY were the one who signed off on all that crap.
Linna
When it's the majority of the population, I think you'd better consider it a revolt, and act accordingly.
And for the record: I have ALWAYS held LA as much accountable for the CU/NGE debacle as SOE, THEY were the one who signed off on all that crap.
Linna
The difference between SOE and LA is that SOE - while a division of a division of a division - is ultimately accountable to shareholders so focusing on its underperformance may actually eventually bring about change whereas LA is a company wholly owned by George Lucas who wouldn't admit he was wrong if he jumped off a forty-story building onto wet concrete while insisting he had Sith lord flying powers.
When it's the majority of the population, I think you'd better consider it a revolt, and act accordingly.
And for the record: I have ALWAYS held LA as much accountable for the CU/NGE debacle as SOE, THEY were the one who signed off on all that crap.
Linna
Frankly, I'm not even sure LA didn't INSTIGATE it all, ordering the changes. The whole combat revamp versus CU, and then followed by the NGE suggests HUGE outside pressure for me, possibly even involvement of an outside team. The way the Mustafar expansion was partly invalidated by the NGE looks very much like the right hand not knowing what the left hand is up to.The difference between SOE and LA is that SOE - while a division of a division of a division - is ultimately accountable to shareholders so focusing on its underperformance may actually eventually bring about change whereas LA is a company wholly owned by George Lucas who wouldn't admit he was wrong if he jumped off a forty-story building onto wet concrete while insisting he had Sith lord flying powers.
Linna
There was a movie with Sean Connery and Wesley Snipes called Rising Sun in which Sean Connery had a great line when he said "fix the problem, not the blame".
I personally don't care about who was responsible for the NGE or CU or whatever, but I do care that neither SOE or LA has made any visiable attempts to correct it.
As far as I'm concerned they're both responsible simply because both their logos' are on the box.
When it's only a few people, you can call them dissidentsWhen it's the majority of the population, I think you'd better consider it a revolt, and act accordingly.
And for the record: I have ALWAYS held LA as much accountable for the CU/NGE debacle as SOE, THEY were the one who signed off on all that crap.
Linna
Frankly, I'm not even sure LA didn't INSTIGATE it all, ordering the changes. The whole combat revamp versus CU, and then followed by the NGE suggests HUGE outside pressure for me, possibly even involvement of an outside team. The way the Mustafar expansion was partly invalidated by the NGE looks very much like the right hand not knowing what the left hand is up to.The difference between SOE and LA is that SOE - while a division of a division of a division - is ultimately accountable to shareholders so focusing on its underperformance may actually eventually bring about change whereas LA is a company wholly owned by George Lucas who wouldn't admit he was wrong if he jumped off a forty-story building onto wet concrete while insisting he had Sith lord flying powers.
Linna
You don't need outside pressure for this. Different concurrent developer teams inside $OE can explain it too.
Because you have the main team working with whatever is live atmand working on bug fixing there is a team doing the expansions and one progressing the core of the game. So the expansion Team of Mustafar had the CU source basing the expansion thereto. The Core Team had the NGE concept ready and on approval.
Imagine you Smed and you a greedy money-driven Monster and it is around November and x-mas business is soon. You didn't expect that NGE would get approved that fast and the development is ready on it (hahaha) and you have this ready expansion you can leech money of and of course you want both. To leech money with an expansion based on CU and to leech money with the "iconic" and "starwarsy" NGE on x-mas business.
Well what you can not understand is that why the costumers don't buy your sh*t LOL
LA had their website years after NGE still in SWG PRE CU look, i think they don't instigate , they approve whatever Smed has as weird ideas and because they approved CU and NGE, they to blame for the horrid changes too (still can't believe that George don't care about his image after EP. I- II and the NGE- thought he is a control freak when it comes to quality of something with his name on it )
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
When it's the majority of the population, I think you'd better consider it a revolt, and act accordingly.
And for the record: I have ALWAYS held LA as much accountable for the CU/NGE debacle as SOE, THEY were the one who signed off on all that crap.
Linna
Frankly, I'm not even sure LA didn't INSTIGATE it all, ordering the changes. The whole combat revamp versus CU, and then followed by the NGE suggests HUGE outside pressure for me, possibly even involvement of an outside team. The way the Mustafar expansion was partly invalidated by the NGE looks very much like the right hand not knowing what the left hand is up to.The difference between SOE and LA is that SOE - while a division of a division of a division - is ultimately accountable to shareholders so focusing on its underperformance may actually eventually bring about change whereas LA is a company wholly owned by George Lucas who wouldn't admit he was wrong if he jumped off a forty-story building onto wet concrete while insisting he had Sith lord flying powers.
Linna
You know, I think you may be right, I have no evidence - except situational - to accuse, as the real villain behind the NGE...NANCY MACINTYRE.
Remember her? She was the LA executive who told us that 'there was too muchu reading' and that what we really wanted to do was 'Kill - get treasure - kill'?
She was actually only at Lucas Arts for a limited time but she apparently has a strong, dominant personality and her background is not in game design or programming but in marketing.
She joined LA only in May 2005 as general manager of its Online Gaming Business (and specifically Senior Direrctor for SWG), having come from Atari - a company that specialises in games very different to SWG and played on very different platforms.
I think she walked into her office - just like Faye Dunaway in Network - and said, 'I'm new here. I see things with a fresh eye. What I see is World of Warcraft with four million subscribers while our SWG has only a quarter of a million. I want you gutless basement virginboi programmers to turn round this sack of crap immediately by making it more like WoW. I don't care how you do it or whose butts you have to step on, just do it. We launch in, hmmmm, November 2005. You got six months. get on with it'.
...And all the tubby SOE developers quailed in delicious fear before this woman who half-reminded them of their mom and half of 'Stiffler's Mom' and went off and did her bidding.
In November, the same month as launch, she was promoted to VP Global Sales & Marketing for all of Lucas Arts...
"I can't imagine a more exciting company in the videogame industry to work for right now," said MacIntyre. "LucasArts is hot off what was by far its most successful year ever in 2005, and this new position offers me the welcome challenge of playing an even bigger role in continuing this unprecedented momentum."
...And then in Feb 2007 she becomes Exec. VP at Leapfrog. Was she headhunted by them, I wonder? Or did she have to get out because it was quite obvious, a year and a half later, that the changes she had forced through at SWG had gutted the game, and George wanted her out as quickly as possible without having to be seen to fire one of the few senior female executives in the industry?
You know what? She's in a cushy new job in a new company, and never has and never will face any consequences at all for the NGE. In fact, she's probably sitting in her corner suite right now, sipping cognac froma balloon glass and smiling to herself because she hasn't even thought about the NGE for six months. Soon Pablo, her assistant, will buzz her to inform her that execuive Gulfstream is now ready to whisk her off Montserrat for the weekend. Life is good for Nancy.