As to the original target market: my husband is a amateur naval historian / naval sim gamer with hundreds of academic grade books on the subject. He loves the game. Nuff said really.
LOL...well, I truly hope that's not the original target market. Amateur naval historians / naval sim gamers with hundreds of academic books on the subject.
If so, your husband and the other 9 guys like that won't be playing long.
And at leaste they have toons in game period.. because origionally they where not even going to have them at all like EVE... but they found out from game players that this is a BAD idea.. and the people who play EVE still to this day 6 years after release.. are still waiting for it....
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
And at leaste they have toons in game period.. because origionally they where not even going to have them at all like EVE... but they found out from game players that this is a BAD idea.. and the people who play EVE still to this day 6 years after release.. are still waiting for it....
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
Nothing like buying into a game and sitting for the first few months waiting for your skills to increase to actually do something in a game. Yea, EvE, umm great game! Better yet, devs who would rather "cheat" at their own game so they don't loose! Yea, EvE, umm great game! Oh wait, a record number of users online in one month! WOW! bet it had nothing to do with the new graphic update, let's see... (looks at the numbers) seems to me just as many left that started. Hmm great game you got there, so why are you posting here? Oh that's right, your skilling up!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Okay, so I have waded my way through this rapidly degenrating thread. Rather than becoming involved in the insult war (comic relief?) I will simply address the question posed by the header/subject line of the thread.
No, no MMO ever is, nor ever will be ready for everything I want. It is not even humanly possible to put everything I want/desire into one virtual world. With the growing expectations from gamers as a whole, now that MMO's have become so "Main stream" rather than a world wide niche crowd they were just a few years back, I do not even think it is possible to fit any gamers full wants into a single game. People are diverse. Anyone over the age of 5 (And even some 5 year olds) have enough variation to their thoughts and "likes" that I do not see it happening. More the proper question, and something more reasonable to expect of developers would perhaps be, "Is any MMO ready for what you expect it to be?"
Given that inquiry instead, certainly. And quite frankly I expect most MMO's to be crap. POTBS I do not consider to be crap. It is for a target audience, and that target audience can be quite happy with what the game offers, and the future growth potential for the game coupled with the Developers it has, who have a true desire to listen to the wants/desires of their target audience and cater to some of them (within their realm and reason.) Is POTBS for everyone? Absolutely not. What MMO is? If the game is not for you, don't play it. Go find a game that is to your liking and troll their forums. If Pirates is for you, great. Enjoy the game and lets not get into a mud slinging contest with the trolls on the other side of the bridge, eh?
To answer your question, Linna, no I have not played the game...but then nothing in my post referred to dissatisfaction with actual gameplay from hands on experience. There is enough of that already on these boards from the ever present "this game suxxors" posters. My point was (and is) that the decision to include avatar combat was a red flag for me as to how far the developers may be drifting towards the shoals of me-too mediocrity.
Now you ask, how does an add-on feature like swordfighting (even badly done) detract from the totally separate ship-to-ship gameplay. And the answer is resources, focus, commitment to your core game design. Let's take an example. From your own guild's website:
"I am posting this because of how ungodly easy it currently is to kill an SOL. I cannot count the number we have killed today in ridiculously lesser ships just to see if we could."
Your forum poster goes on to describe how he drove off a group of SOL's with what was effectively a 16 gun sloop. Now you can ask your naval historian husband how many times he can recall that's ever happening in the entire age of sail. Is this a balancing issue that will prolly be corrected? Of course. Is it a SERIOUS balancing issue that should have been corrected long before this and one which will prolly get this game dismissed by every grognard site as just another kiddie game designed by the clueless. Unfortunately, yes it is.
Now with those sorts of issues still remaining in what was billed as the core game, how important were the hundreds of man-hours devoted to design, artwork and coding of what even the fanbois admit is a substandard avatar combat feature? So you see, it is only a throw away feature if you are satisfied with where your core game is....otherwise, it is wasted opportunity.
Like they say, what's past is prologue. I for one dont like the way FLS was pushed off its gameplan and I will adopt a wait and see approach until it is a finished game with a defined community.
Nothing like buying into a game and sitting for the first few months waiting for your skills to increase to actually do something in a game. Yea, EvE, umm great game! Better yet, devs who would rather "cheat" at their own game so they don't loose! Yea, EvE, umm great game! Oh wait, a record number of users online in one month! WOW! bet it had nothing to do with the new graphic update, let's see... (looks at the numbers) seems to me just as many left that started. Hmm great game you got there, so why are you posting here? Oh that's right, your skilling up!
Actually, I haven't ever played EVE. I do know, they're one of the few MMO's who've consistently released their subscriber numbers and currently online numbers. As many left as started? Um...no.
As to the original target market: my husband is a amateur naval historian / naval sim gamer with hundreds of academic grade books on the subject. He loves the game. Nuff said really.
LOL...well, I truly hope that's not the original target market. Amateur naval historians / naval sim gamers with hundreds of academic books on the subject.
If so, your husband and the other 9 guys like that won't be playing long.
I'm sorry, but are you just here to troll? The post I was reacting to was one that said this game targetted a specific niche market, and that this niche market had been 'sold out'. I am pointing out my husband definitely DOES belong to a very specific niche, that is probably very close to the original group targetted, and that HE still likes the game a lot, even after playing till the end of open beta. So what is your point, really, other than that YOU don't like the game are are flaming anyone who does?
I think the game DOES appeal to a broader market now, or I would not be playing it. I had a strong 'meh' reaction to the words 'wooden ship combat', and was surprised as hell that I DID in fact like it a lot. I dragged my guild into it, and surprise surprise, most of THEM like it a lot too, and they are a VERY diverse lot. Conclusion: FLS must be doing something right, if both our niche-gamers, our PVPers, our PVEers and our crafters are pre-ordering.
lol... The game is about SHIP combat... if you read all of this thread.. you would have read that they added AVCombat in to the game just a few months ago.. because people wanted it in the game..
BUT during the development time for the game till late beta.. ALL they where working on was SHIP to SHIP COMBAT and the MARKET.. that is what the game is about...
BTW, this is innacurate, no matter how many times you say it. Avatar combat was the plan from day one, the only thing that changed was shipping it separately. Not because of fan requests, but because of market analysis by the devs. Know how I know? A dev told me...
To answer your question, Linna, no I have not played the game...but then nothing in my post referred to dissatisfaction with actual gameplay from hands on experience. There is enough of that already on these boards from the ever present "this game suxxors" posters. My point was (and is) that the decision to include avatar combat was a red flag for me as to how far the developers may be drifting towards the shoals of me-too mediocrity. Now you ask, how does an add-on feature like swordfighting (even badly done) detract from the totally separate ship-to-ship gameplay. And the answer is resources, focus, commitment to your core game design. Let's take an example. From your own guild's website: "I am posting this because of how ungodly easy it currently is to kill an SOL. I cannot count the number we have killed today in ridiculously lesser ships just to see if we could." Your forum poster goes on to describe how he drove off a group of SOL's with what was effectively a 16 gun sloop. Now you can ask your naval historian husband how many times he can recall that's ever happening in the entire age of sail. Is this a balancing issue that will prolly be corrected? Of course. Is it a SERIOUS balancing issue that should have been corrected long before this and one which will prolly get this game dismissed by every grognard site as just another kiddie game designed by the clueless. Unfortunately, yes it is. Now with those sorts of issues still remaining in what was billed as the core game, how important were the hundreds of man-hours devoted to design, artwork and coding of what even the fanbois admit is a substandard avatar combat feature? So you see, it is only a throw away feature if you are satisfied with where your core game is....otherwise, it is wasted opportunity. Like they say, what's past is prologue. I for one dont like the way FLS was pushed off its gameplan and I will adopt a wait and see approach until it is a finished game with a defined community.
That was a post I pulled from the official forums as a warning to our over-enthusiastic NOs who went apeshit about the free SOLs in the final days of open beta. I would personally never consider the sloop as a threat if I were in a group, but keep in mind there were a LOT of people who had instantly levelled to 50, and didn't even know the basics of sailing, let alone how to sail an SOL.
As the developers have repeatedly stated, SOLs are floating fortresses intended for the 25 x 25 battles in PORT COMBAT. They are NOT meant to go solo PVPing, which is what a lot of people did in the end-of-beta. I personally helped see to it that the number of idiots who thought they had an "I-win" button was reduced.
Historically, I think it is ENTIRELY accurate that an unescorted SOL was vulnerable to attacks by faster and more manoeuverable ships, if those ships knew what they were doing. I don't think, however, that any navy in it's right mind ever allowed one to go anywhere unescorted. In game terms, and looking at the numbers restrictions for open sea PVP (6x6 players), no solo SOL, or indeed even 2 SOLs, should expect to survive an encounter with 2-4 smaller ships that can stay at their stern and bow.
I seriously think you should not go by what is posted on the forums here and elsewhere, and go try it before deciding it doesn't meet your expectations. I also wouldn't worry too much about the dev focus straying from the ship combat - the actual combat is pretty much perfect. My naval knowledge is limited to naval fiction (yes, I did read the whole Hornblower series, and similar series =p) and Dutch history, but I noticed the tactics of the time DO actually work in the game. Buy a pre-order box, have a look around. If you don't like it, you'll be out of a few bucks, but at least you'll be sure. You know where we hang, if you want company.
And at leaste they have toons in game period.. because origionally they where not even going to have them at all like EVE... but they found out from game players that this is a BAD idea.. and the people who play EVE still to this day 6 years after release.. are still waiting for it....
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
dude your getting the wrong idea... i play EVE as well 2 accounts... all i was saying was that.. EVE still deos not have toon and its a draw back for the game FOR MANY not all EVE players.. and to the guy who posted before that.. OF corse CCP will do avatars better.. then POTBS.. they have been making money for 6+ years... POTBS so far has done one thing COST money for 3+ years.. untill the game starts to pull in money (if the release goes well) then they will fix the major problems with the game just like EVERY other MMO..
lol... The game is about SHIP combat... if you read all of this thread.. you would have read that they added AVCombat in to the game just a few months ago.. because people wanted it in the game..
BUT during the development time for the game till late beta.. ALL they where working on was SHIP to SHIP COMBAT and the MARKET.. that is what the game is about...
BTW, this is innacurate, no matter how many times you say it. Avatar combat was the plan from day one, the only thing that changed was shipping it separately. Not because of fan requests, but because of market analysis by the devs. Know how I know? A dev told me...
What i ment to so say was that AVCombat was not supposed to be in the initial release of the game. and that it was only added a few months ago.. and that during MOST of the development phase the developers where working on the SHIP to SHIP combat.. and the Market.
That, IMO, is a huge mistake. Anyone who watches that, then plays POTBS, will be overwhelmingly disappointed.
I have to agree with you on this point.. but the developers are just trying to please everyone.. to get some extra numbers... If the people who come into the game are more interested in the AVcombat then the ship combat and market. they will probably leave the game.. but i hate to say this as its mean...
BUT if the devs make there money off of the people who beleve trailers are what the games is all about and those people dont do the research INTO the game there spending MONEY on is really all there fault.
Most serious gamers now a days will read about a game for weeks and months before release to find out how a game it going to be.. or trys the beta of said game.. i dont even bother to buy a game unless i have tryed beta or a demo before getting it. if i dont like the game buy beta. or the demo play then i wont risk the $50.
As for the people who buy games blind FLS thanks you for the money.. and they will use those funds towards our(the people who like this games design) BENIFIT and it will insure the game lives on for those that like it.. POTBS will be like EVE and WWIIONLINE and now even SWG. i game that only 100,000-350,000 or so will play.. this game is not intended to be a WOW (9 million players) game.
It's designed for making a good and steady amount of money to keep fueling a game for people who like the 1700 time frame. we have most of the game types out there now.
fan-WOW,EQ,ect, ect, ect.
sci-EVE,SWG.
history-old navy(and pirates)- POTBS.
World War 2- WWIIONLINE
My only complant is that the fan club is well to over populated. and its why so many people are playing WOW because there nothing else better out there that MOST people can enjoy. (and im not a WOW fanboi i dont like WOW). BUT i do UNDERSTAND why people play it.
and as for content.. it all comes in time.. people are complaining about the ground battles.. yes they are bad.. but they where also not supposed to be in game at all... they added it near the end to stay away from the mistake that EVE made.. no toons.. so they added it real fast and they know it needs work. and they will fix it.
CCP didn't make a mistake with EVE. If you can't do avatar combat correctly, it shouldn't be included in the game at all. EVE is the correct model, PotBS should have done the same until they got it right.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
CCP didn't make a mistake with EVE. If you can't do avatar combat correctly, it shouldn't be included in the game at all. EVE is the correct model, PotBS should have done the same until they got it right.
Thats easy to say when EVE has been making money for 6+ years... POTBS has only been COSTING moeny so far and they have not MADE a dime yet....playing BETA for POTBS VS EVE at launch.. there is no comparison to how much BETTER POTBS is at its current state...
And if you are a long time EVE player dont tell me that game released well... lol EVE WAS SHIT on release.. what it is now is GREAT.. but thats after 15$ a month for almost 7 years.
NOW im not trying to shit on EVE as i play it .. and i have 2 accounts... but you are trying to compare a feature that EVE is working on (toons) for over 1 year now..... (WHILE THEY HAVE BEEN COLECTING MONEY) from the only space based game.. for that whole years time..
POTBS on the other hand has spent money now for over 3 years and is only now going to release...
And personaly for me the fact that they have a shitty AVcombat is better then not having it at all.. as i understand how games get developed over time as i have been playing MMO's for TOO many years...
The problem is now a days people want EVERYTHING for there 50$ and 15$ a month... and are to critical.
As an old time gamer... i think back to the games i used to play and LOVE.... dune. doom, C&C, masters of orion.
Back then when a game came out you played it and enjoyed it.. you didnt cry about the grapics cry about the combat cry about everything you can think of you played it and had fun..
the problem is people forget that GAMES are now not made buy geeks who want to have fun.. game used to be built by 1-10 people.
Not any more.. games are made buy 100's of people who are all OWNED buy what ever mulit-million $ company that owns them. and building games is now aboutONE THING MAKING said company MONEY MONEY MOENY!!!!!! And licking the nuts of that companies STOCK holders. Gaming is not the same as it used to be.
So stop being so critical.. if you tryed the game in beta and you had fun play it.. it you didnt. then flip a coin and play or dont play. or do what i do....
Personaly i research a game now before i PAY to play it.. i never worried about that crap when i bought C&C i bought it and played.. (and back then i had a dead end job working at staples at minimum wage) but now a days im more picky then back then...and thats sad esp when i make 8X more money then i did back then!!!
So do the ground work yourself and decied if you want to play or not...
Truthfully, I only started playing EVE about 7 months ago, but I do remember its poor release, its a big reason I stayed away from the game for so long.
Now, just because I've noticed a tendency for people to inflate a game's longevity, I must point out that EVE is coming up on the 4.5 year mark since release.
As an old time gamer you should know its not even possible to compare those single player games that you mention to a modern day MMORPG game. Doesn't take nearly as much effort to code a single player game vs an MMO, although I'll grant you, some developers failed to pull many of them off.
As for your assertion that the business model has changed, I'll put forth that other than in size and scope, the goal of any gaming company was to make money for the people who developed it. Nothing more, nothing less. Love of gaming is a myth, love of money is a reality.
Now here's the deal, back in the day when EVE launched, games could get away with it since most games previous to it launched in a very poor state.
But games like Lineage 2, WOW, COH/COV and LotRO all set the bar for modern day game players and we figure if these companies can pull off a decent launch then all companies should be able to do it.
And remember, people will be far more critical of broken avatar combat than if it had never been implemented on release. We tend to focus on a games negatives than the pluses. With that in mind, better to not do it at all rather than do it poorly. (IMHO)
Users won't pay for unfinished games anymore, everything included at release had better run well, or it should be delayed until it can be made so.
The running out of money/need to start earning income excuse for release unpolished games doesn't hold water. Don't start a project that you can't afford to finish, a standard model for all software development, not just gaming.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lol... The game is about SHIP combat... if you read all of this thread.. you would have read that they added AVCombat in to the game just a few months ago.. because people wanted it in the game..
BUT during the development time for the game till late beta.. ALL they where working on was SHIP to SHIP COMBAT and the MARKET.. that is what the game is about... toon combat was added in as a last minute EXTRA feature.. that they SLIPPED in at the end..
Actually, they announced they were adding avatar combat in late 2006...around the time most thought they were going to announce a release date. They've been working on avatar combat for over a year...and it's been beta tested for much longer than "a few months".
Also, at the time, it was a surprise to the followers of the game that they were going to delay for avatar combat. Yes, there was a decent number of folks who asked for it, but not so much that followers thought it would get delayed to add it in. The original followers of the game, in its first form (its seen adjustments) for the most part knew, and liked, that it was a naval combat game. That doesn't mean it was a bad idea, or that FLS picked AV combat out of the blue....just that, for the first 3+ years of development, there was an acceptance that it was naval only.
So, basically, your statements aren't entirely accurate.
Oh....and how did this discussion get so far away from the "complaining a game is unfinished" premise?
I have pre-ordered POTBS, so reguardless of how people feel i will be purchasing the game. With that said, that does not blind me to the obvious flaws and failings in the game. There is no doubt that avatar combat is bad, especially when you look at the PVE aspects of it. FLS has tried to some extent to do everything at once, and try to please all the consumers.
I also feel that they invested resources into avatar combat that would have been much better spent polishing the best aspects of the game. There is no doubt that there is room for improvement in almost every catagory of the game from PVP combat /RVR combat, PVE combat, graphics, features like player run ports, guild warehouse/AH and many other features that should be in the game, that would improve it drastically. Unfortuntely FLS did not do that, so we have the game that exists today. it has flaws, and is very basic.
With all that said, this is the first mmo in along time that i have actually been excited to play. The last mmo that i felt that way about was EQ and to some extent WoW. The reason is quite simple, this is the first game in along time to actually let the player plan and use strategy and tactics that can change the outcome of combat against other players. This is true on both the economic and RVR/PVP level. For all its flaws POTBS actually does what 95% of MMO's today do not, and thats allow for player skill to decide the outcome of the battle, or win the economic war. Before people say im a PVPer, i am but i am a casual gamer, i play about 10-20 hours a week at most, usually alot less. i do like pvp for the challange aspect, competing against players is always more rewarding then NPC AI, but i still enjoy the PVE and Economic sides of potbs to some extent.
Many people will of course say EQ had strategic PVP, WoW had strategic PVP, DAOC was the best Ever RVR. For the most part they are wrong. While those games did have strategy in how groups were formed, or how your group worked together, it still boiled down to Level difference and Itemization of charecters. DAOC was a great example of a failure in PVP/RVR for the first 18 months. The game required you as an individual to either be grouped , or to have a buff bot to level the playing field, most times you had to do both.
The other reason im buying POTBS is that FLS is the first company in along time to actually encouage direct communication between its developers and the community. While this has its drawbacks, the company is at least making the effort to adress the community via forums, and be involved in a discussion about the game. of course people will say that will stop, once the game goes live. it has not so far, they still address as many concerns or actually answer questions or provide information.
whats funny is about 75% of all the posts on MMORPG basically follow the same format, on every game. During development its hyped to levels no one can reach, then its bashed brutally as the people who hyped it realize it wont live up to expectations. All you have to do right now is look at the various games in beta to see the same pattern repeat itself over and over.
I have pre-ordered POTBS, so reguardless of how people feel i will be purchasing the game. With that said, that does not blind me to the obvious flaws and failings in the game. There is no doubt that avatar combat is bad, especially when you look at the PVE aspects of it. FLS has tried to some extent to do everything at once, and try to please all the consumers. I also feel that they invested resources into avatar combat that would have been much better spent polishing the best aspects of the game. There is no doubt that there is room for improvement in almost every catagory of the game from PVP combat /RVR combat, PVE combat, graphics, features like player run ports, guild warehouse/AH and many other features that should be in the game, that would improve it drastically. Unfortuntely FLS did not do that, so we have the game that exists today. it has flaws, and is very basic. With all that said, this is the first mmo in along time that i have actually been excited to play. The last mmo that i felt that way about was EQ and to some extent WoW. The reason is quite simple, this is the first game in along time to actually let the player plan and use strategy and tactics that can change the outcome of combat against other players. This is true on both the economic and RVR/PVP level. For all its flaws POTBS actually does what 95% of MMO's today do not, and thats allow for player skill to decide the outcome of the battle, or win the economic war. Before people say im a PVPer, i am but i am a casual gamer, i play about 10-20 hours a week at most, usually alot less. i do like pvp for the challange aspect, competing against players is always more rewarding then NPC AI, but i still enjoy the PVE and Economic sides of potbs to some extent. Many people will of course say EQ had strategic PVP, WoW had strategic PVP, DAOC was the best Ever RVR. For the most part they are wrong. While those games did have strategy in how groups were formed, or how your group worked together, it still boiled down to Level difference and Itemization of charecters. DAOC was a great example of a failure in PVP/RVR for the first 18 months. The game required you as an individual to either be grouped , or to have a buff bot to level the playing field, most times you had to do both. The other reason im buying POTBS is that FLS is the first company in along time to actually encouage direct communication between its developers and the community. While this has its drawbacks, the company is at least making the effort to adress the community via forums, and be involved in a discussion about the game. of course people will say that will stop, once the game goes live. it has not so far, they still address as many concerns or actually answer questions or provide information. whats funny is about 75% of all the posts on MMORPG basically follow the same format, on every game. During development its hyped to levels no one can reach, then its bashed brutally as the people who hyped it realize it wont live up to expectations. All you have to do right now is look at the various games in beta to see the same pattern repeat itself over and over.
I usually come to betas without much in the way of expectations, but yeah, it's true. You get the rabid bashers, the rabid fanbois, and a small modicum of people who actually try to analyse WHY the are pro or con.
I got dragged into PotBS because hubby is a wooden ship maniac (waves at hubby). Didn't expect to like it, just wanted to give it a try so I could at least understand what he was going on about. Now I'm hooked. The ability to plan strategic nastiness against other nations is just too delicious. Destroy their economy, form alliances with other nations, kill their shipping... mwuhahaha!
I usually come to betas without much in the way of expectations, but yeah, it's true. You get the rabid bashers, the rabid fanbois, and a small modicum of people who actually try to analyse WHY the are pro or con.
I got dragged into PotBS because hubby is a wooden ship maniac (waves at hubby). Didn't expect to like it, just wanted to give it a try so I could at least understand what he was going on about. Now I'm hooked. The ability to plan strategic nastiness against other nations is just too delicious. Destroy their economy, form alliances with other nations, kill their shipping... mwuhahaha! Linna
You know its funny that out of all the women gamers i know a large % of them get hooked on the whole PVP type elements of games. the 4 girls in my corp in EVE 3 are all hard core pvp'ers that do nothing but talk about and get excited when they blow up other peoples ships the 4th is a eco girl and she runs alot of the corps busines like keeping our starbases fueled up and moving materials around and mining for large scale projects.
Its nice to see that women are starting to get into game more and more now... (i know this is off topic)
But i agree with your first comment there is alwase people who will prase the game no matter what. and there will alwase be those few guys that will post somthing like this game is the SUXSORZZZZ!!!
I'm not one oft either those guys.. I just hate the fact that so many people complain so much about all new MMO's being NOT finnished... every game i have tested during beta. and played at launch. ah had a rocky start. the first day is alwase server isses day.. where the team tryes to keep the thing running as hundredes or people try to get in at the same time.. SWG,WOW,EQ, they all had problems in the start if its not one thing its another.. and thats standard..
games like EVE which i love as well.. had one of the worst starts i have ever seen. but is still making money today... so if EVE can pull it off i thing FLS will as well..
All i would like to say is that if you like the idea of POTBS then pay for it play it and support the DEV's so that one day POTBS will be sucessfull like EVE and WOW and the 12 or so other good MMO's out there.
If your not happy with a feature like AVcombat.. or any of the other features then you have 2 options... keep playing it and wait till they fix it to your liking.. or stop playing it.... but if they dont make money.. they will never fix it..
And for me there is enough good things in the game for me to be interested in the game.. till they fix other problems..
#3. The ability to take land from other countries/players
#4. The ability to get out of your ship and walk around..
EVE is alot like POTBS in many ways..but even EVE does not have #4 as a option YET.. and the fact that POTBS does have it even if its in a poor state right now.. for me is still a bonuse!!
Its nice to see that women are starting to get into game more and more now... (i know this is off topic)
Heh. MMOs were interesting before 2003, but prohibitively expensive to play (dial-up). Then DSL came along. Then hubby made the MAJOR mistake of getting me interested in SWG. The rest is history.
There's a lot more women in MMOs then the 'boys' think, we're just fond of creating gender confusion: many roll male toons - we like something to look at too, you know - others make it a sport to suggest to horny little boys that 'uhm, this is the internet, dude, don't you know most female toons are played by men? Geesh'.
Comments
LOL...well, I truly hope that's not the original target market. Amateur naval historians / naval sim gamers with hundreds of academic books on the subject.
If so, your husband and the other 9 guys like that won't be playing long.
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
Nothing like buying into a game and sitting for the first few months waiting for your skills to increase to actually do something in a game. Yea, EvE, umm great game! Better yet, devs who would rather "cheat" at their own game so they don't loose! Yea, EvE, umm great game! Oh wait, a record number of users online in one month! WOW! bet it had nothing to do with the new graphic update, let's see... (looks at the numbers) seems to me just as many left that started. Hmm great game you got there, so why are you posting here? Oh that's right, your skilling up!
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Okay, so I have waded my way through this rapidly degenrating thread. Rather than becoming involved in the insult war (comic relief?) I will simply address the question posed by the header/subject line of the thread.
No, no MMO ever is, nor ever will be ready for everything I want. It is not even humanly possible to put everything I want/desire into one virtual world. With the growing expectations from gamers as a whole, now that MMO's have become so "Main stream" rather than a world wide niche crowd they were just a few years back, I do not even think it is possible to fit any gamers full wants into a single game. People are diverse. Anyone over the age of 5 (And even some 5 year olds) have enough variation to their thoughts and "likes" that I do not see it happening. More the proper question, and something more reasonable to expect of developers would perhaps be, "Is any MMO ready for what you expect it to be?"
Given that inquiry instead, certainly. And quite frankly I expect most MMO's to be crap. POTBS I do not consider to be crap. It is for a target audience, and that target audience can be quite happy with what the game offers, and the future growth potential for the game coupled with the Developers it has, who have a true desire to listen to the wants/desires of their target audience and cater to some of them (within their realm and reason.) Is POTBS for everyone? Absolutely not. What MMO is? If the game is not for you, don't play it. Go find a game that is to your liking and troll their forums. If Pirates is for you, great. Enjoy the game and lets not get into a mud slinging contest with the trolls on the other side of the bridge, eh?
To answer your question, Linna, no I have not played the game...but then nothing in my post referred to dissatisfaction with actual gameplay from hands on experience. There is enough of that already on these boards from the ever present "this game suxxors" posters. My point was (and is) that the decision to include avatar combat was a red flag for me as to how far the developers may be drifting towards the shoals of me-too mediocrity.
Now you ask, how does an add-on feature like swordfighting (even badly done) detract from the totally separate ship-to-ship gameplay. And the answer is resources, focus, commitment to your core game design. Let's take an example. From your own guild's website:
"I am posting this because of how ungodly easy it currently is to kill an SOL. I cannot count the number we have killed today in ridiculously lesser ships just to see if we could."
Your forum poster goes on to describe how he drove off a group of SOL's with what was effectively a 16 gun sloop. Now you can ask your naval historian husband how many times he can recall that's ever happening in the entire age of sail. Is this a balancing issue that will prolly be corrected? Of course. Is it a SERIOUS balancing issue that should have been corrected long before this and one which will prolly get this game dismissed by every grognard site as just another kiddie game designed by the clueless. Unfortunately, yes it is.
Now with those sorts of issues still remaining in what was billed as the core game, how important were the hundreds of man-hours devoted to design, artwork and coding of what even the fanbois admit is a substandard avatar combat feature? So you see, it is only a throw away feature if you are satisfied with where your core game is....otherwise, it is wasted opportunity.
Like they say, what's past is prologue. I for one dont like the way FLS was pushed off its gameplan and I will adopt a wait and see approach until it is a finished game with a defined community.
Actually, I haven't ever played EVE. I do know, they're one of the few MMO's who've consistently released their subscriber numbers and currently online numbers. As many left as started? Um...no.
EVE hits 70k subscribers.9-05
http://news.softpedia.com/news/EVE-Online-Has-Reached-70-000-Subscribers-9196.shtml
EVE hits 80k subscribers, 11-05
http://www.eve-online.com/pressreleases/default.asp?pressReleaseID=17
EVE hits 100k subscribers, 2-06
http://www.secretlair.com/index.php?/clickableculture/entry/eve_online_hits_100k_subscribers
EVE hits 200k subs/35k online at once, 9-07
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/interviews/34250/EVE-Online-How-Big-Is-Your-Slice-of-the-80-Trillion-ISK-Pie
EVE hits 41,690 users online at once, 12-07
http://mmorpg.qj.net/CCP-Games-EVE-Online-breaks-simultaneous-users-record/pg/49/aid/109441
MMOs PRAY for growing numbers like that.
LOL...well, I truly hope that's not the original target market. Amateur naval historians / naval sim gamers with hundreds of academic books on the subject.
If so, your husband and the other 9 guys like that won't be playing long.
I'm sorry, but are you just here to troll? The post I was reacting to was one that said this game targetted a specific niche market, and that this niche market had been 'sold out'. I am pointing out my husband definitely DOES belong to a very specific niche, that is probably very close to the original group targetted, and that HE still likes the game a lot, even after playing till the end of open beta. So what is your point, really, other than that YOU don't like the game are are flaming anyone who does?I think the game DOES appeal to a broader market now, or I would not be playing it. I had a strong 'meh' reaction to the words 'wooden ship combat', and was surprised as hell that I DID in fact like it a lot. I dragged my guild into it, and surprise surprise, most of THEM like it a lot too, and they are a VERY diverse lot. Conclusion: FLS must be doing something right, if both our niche-gamers, our PVPers, our PVEers and our crafters are pre-ordering.
=p
Linna
p.s. My point in all this, is that POTBS should embrace it's "EVE-ness" and realize it's probably going to be a niche game.
The problem is, SOE hasn't always done well with "niche games".
p.s. It was a joke Linna, relax.
It is 9:51 am EST (2:51 pm in London).
Eve has 23,296 podpilots online. Not exactly primetime.
BTW, this is innacurate, no matter how many times you say it. Avatar combat was the plan from day one, the only thing that changed was shipping it separately. Not because of fan requests, but because of market analysis by the devs. Know how I know? A dev told me...
http://www.mpog.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1734186
That was a post I pulled from the official forums as a warning to our over-enthusiastic NOs who went apeshit about the free SOLs in the final days of open beta. I would personally never consider the sloop as a threat if I were in a group, but keep in mind there were a LOT of people who had instantly levelled to 50, and didn't even know the basics of sailing, let alone how to sail an SOL.
As the developers have repeatedly stated, SOLs are floating fortresses intended for the 25 x 25 battles in PORT COMBAT. They are NOT meant to go solo PVPing, which is what a lot of people did in the end-of-beta. I personally helped see to it that the number of idiots who thought they had an "I-win" button was reduced.
Historically, I think it is ENTIRELY accurate that an unescorted SOL was vulnerable to attacks by faster and more manoeuverable ships, if those ships knew what they were doing. I don't think, however, that any navy in it's right mind ever allowed one to go anywhere unescorted. In game terms, and looking at the numbers restrictions for open sea PVP (6x6 players), no solo SOL, or indeed even 2 SOLs, should expect to survive an encounter with 2-4 smaller ships that can stay at their stern and bow.
I seriously think you should not go by what is posted on the forums here and elsewhere, and go try it before deciding it doesn't meet your expectations. I also wouldn't worry too much about the dev focus straying from the ship combat - the actual combat is pretty much perfect. My naval knowledge is limited to naval fiction (yes, I did read the whole Hornblower series, and similar series =p) and Dutch history, but I noticed the tactics of the time DO actually work in the game. Buy a pre-order box, have a look around. If you don't like it, you'll be out of a few bucks, but at least you'll be sure. You know where we hang, if you want company.
Linna
EVE also just hit a new all time record for number of users online at once last month. If I were all the POTBS fans, I'd spend less time talking about how bad EVE is and how great POTBS is, and start hoping you get and keep numbers like EVE has had.
If POTBS still has 100k subscribers or more after several years like EVE, I'd be amazed.
dude your getting the wrong idea... i play EVE as well 2 accounts... all i was saying was that.. EVE still deos not have toon and its a draw back for the game FOR MANY not all EVE players.. and to the guy who posted before that.. OF corse CCP will do avatars better.. then POTBS.. they have been making money for 6+ years... POTBS so far has done one thing COST money for 3+ years.. untill the game starts to pull in money (if the release goes well) then they will fix the major problems with the game just like EVERY other MMO..
One other thing for everyone who keeps saying "who cares about avatar combat" and "this is a ship game"...
You watch this gameplay video and tell me what they're trying to promote.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setView/videos/gameID/68/videoId/1111
That, IMO, is a huge mistake. Anyone who watches that, then plays POTBS, will be overwhelmingly disappointed.
BTW, this is innacurate, no matter how many times you say it. Avatar combat was the plan from day one, the only thing that changed was shipping it separately. Not because of fan requests, but because of market analysis by the devs. Know how I know? A dev told me...
http://www.mpog.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1734186
What i ment to so say was that AVCombat was not supposed to be in the initial release of the game. and that it was only added a few months ago.. and that during MOST of the development phase the developers where working on the SHIP to SHIP combat.. and the Market.
I have to agree with you on this point.. but the developers are just trying to please everyone.. to get some extra numbers... If the people who come into the game are more interested in the AVcombat then the ship combat and market. they will probably leave the game.. but i hate to say this as its mean...
BUT if the devs make there money off of the people who beleve trailers are what the games is all about and those people dont do the research INTO the game there spending MONEY on is really all there fault.
Most serious gamers now a days will read about a game for weeks and months before release to find out how a game it going to be.. or trys the beta of said game.. i dont even bother to buy a game unless i have tryed beta or a demo before getting it. if i dont like the game buy beta. or the demo play then i wont risk the $50.
As for the people who buy games blind FLS thanks you for the money.. and they will use those funds towards our(the people who like this games design) BENIFIT and it will insure the game lives on for those that like it.. POTBS will be like EVE and WWIIONLINE and now even SWG. i game that only 100,000-350,000 or so will play.. this game is not intended to be a WOW (9 million players) game.
It's designed for making a good and steady amount of money to keep fueling a game for people who like the 1700 time frame. we have most of the game types out there now.
fan-WOW,EQ,ect, ect, ect.
sci-EVE,SWG.
history-old navy(and pirates)- POTBS.
World War 2- WWIIONLINE
My only complant is that the fan club is well to over populated. and its why so many people are playing WOW because there nothing else better out there that MOST people can enjoy. (and im not a WOW fanboi i dont like WOW). BUT i do UNDERSTAND why people play it.
CCP didn't make a mistake with EVE. If you can't do avatar combat correctly, it shouldn't be included in the game at all. EVE is the correct model, PotBS should have done the same until they got it right.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thats easy to say when EVE has been making money for 6+ years... POTBS has only been COSTING moeny so far and they have not MADE a dime yet....playing BETA for POTBS VS EVE at launch.. there is no comparison to how much BETTER POTBS is at its current state...
And if you are a long time EVE player dont tell me that game released well... lol EVE WAS SHIT on release.. what it is now is GREAT.. but thats after 15$ a month for almost 7 years.
NOW im not trying to shit on EVE as i play it .. and i have 2 accounts... but you are trying to compare a feature that EVE is working on (toons) for over 1 year now..... (WHILE THEY HAVE BEEN COLECTING MONEY) from the only space based game.. for that whole years time..
POTBS on the other hand has spent money now for over 3 years and is only now going to release...
And personaly for me the fact that they have a shitty AVcombat is better then not having it at all.. as i understand how games get developed over time as i have been playing MMO's for TOO many years...
The problem is now a days people want EVERYTHING for there 50$ and 15$ a month... and are to critical.
As an old time gamer... i think back to the games i used to play and LOVE.... dune. doom, C&C, masters of orion.
Back then when a game came out you played it and enjoyed it.. you didnt cry about the grapics cry about the combat cry about everything you can think of you played it and had fun..
the problem is people forget that GAMES are now not made buy geeks who want to have fun.. game used to be built by 1-10 people.
Not any more.. games are made buy 100's of people who are all OWNED buy what ever mulit-million $ company that owns them. and building games is now aboutONE THING MAKING said company MONEY MONEY MOENY!!!!!! And licking the nuts of that companies STOCK holders. Gaming is not the same as it used to be.
So stop being so critical.. if you tryed the game in beta and you had fun play it.. it you didnt. then flip a coin and play or dont play. or do what i do....
Personaly i research a game now before i PAY to play it.. i never worried about that crap when i bought C&C i bought it and played.. (and back then i had a dead end job working at staples at minimum wage) but now a days im more picky then back then...and thats sad esp when i make 8X more money then i did back then!!!
So do the ground work yourself and decied if you want to play or not...
Truthfully, I only started playing EVE about 7 months ago, but I do remember its poor release, its a big reason I stayed away from the game for so long.
Now, just because I've noticed a tendency for people to inflate a game's longevity, I must point out that EVE is coming up on the 4.5 year mark since release.
As an old time gamer you should know its not even possible to compare those single player games that you mention to a modern day MMORPG game. Doesn't take nearly as much effort to code a single player game vs an MMO, although I'll grant you, some developers failed to pull many of them off.
As for your assertion that the business model has changed, I'll put forth that other than in size and scope, the goal of any gaming company was to make money for the people who developed it. Nothing more, nothing less. Love of gaming is a myth, love of money is a reality.
Now here's the deal, back in the day when EVE launched, games could get away with it since most games previous to it launched in a very poor state.
But games like Lineage 2, WOW, COH/COV and LotRO all set the bar for modern day game players and we figure if these companies can pull off a decent launch then all companies should be able to do it.
And remember, people will be far more critical of broken avatar combat than if it had never been implemented on release. We tend to focus on a games negatives than the pluses. With that in mind, better to not do it at all rather than do it poorly. (IMHO)
Users won't pay for unfinished games anymore, everything included at release had better run well, or it should be delayed until it can be made so.
The running out of money/need to start earning income excuse for release unpolished games doesn't hold water. Don't start a project that you can't afford to finish, a standard model for all software development, not just gaming.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Also, at the time, it was a surprise to the followers of the game that they were going to delay for avatar combat. Yes, there was a decent number of folks who asked for it, but not so much that followers thought it would get delayed to add it in. The original followers of the game, in its first form (its seen adjustments) for the most part knew, and liked, that it was a naval combat game. That doesn't mean it was a bad idea, or that FLS picked AV combat out of the blue....just that, for the first 3+ years of development, there was an acceptance that it was naval only.
So, basically, your statements aren't entirely accurate.
Oh....and how did this discussion get so far away from the "complaining a game is unfinished" premise?
I have pre-ordered POTBS, so reguardless of how people feel i will be purchasing the game. With that said, that does not blind me to the obvious flaws and failings in the game. There is no doubt that avatar combat is bad, especially when you look at the PVE aspects of it. FLS has tried to some extent to do everything at once, and try to please all the consumers.
I also feel that they invested resources into avatar combat that would have been much better spent polishing the best aspects of the game. There is no doubt that there is room for improvement in almost every catagory of the game from PVP combat /RVR combat, PVE combat, graphics, features like player run ports, guild warehouse/AH and many other features that should be in the game, that would improve it drastically. Unfortuntely FLS did not do that, so we have the game that exists today. it has flaws, and is very basic.
With all that said, this is the first mmo in along time that i have actually been excited to play. The last mmo that i felt that way about was EQ and to some extent WoW. The reason is quite simple, this is the first game in along time to actually let the player plan and use strategy and tactics that can change the outcome of combat against other players. This is true on both the economic and RVR/PVP level. For all its flaws POTBS actually does what 95% of MMO's today do not, and thats allow for player skill to decide the outcome of the battle, or win the economic war. Before people say im a PVPer, i am but i am a casual gamer, i play about 10-20 hours a week at most, usually alot less. i do like pvp for the challange aspect, competing against players is always more rewarding then NPC AI, but i still enjoy the PVE and Economic sides of potbs to some extent.
Many people will of course say EQ had strategic PVP, WoW had strategic PVP, DAOC was the best Ever RVR. For the most part they are wrong. While those games did have strategy in how groups were formed, or how your group worked together, it still boiled down to Level difference and Itemization of charecters. DAOC was a great example of a failure in PVP/RVR for the first 18 months. The game required you as an individual to either be grouped , or to have a buff bot to level the playing field, most times you had to do both.
The other reason im buying POTBS is that FLS is the first company in along time to actually encouage direct communication between its developers and the community. While this has its drawbacks, the company is at least making the effort to adress the community via forums, and be involved in a discussion about the game. of course people will say that will stop, once the game goes live. it has not so far, they still address as many concerns or actually answer questions or provide information.
whats funny is about 75% of all the posts on MMORPG basically follow the same format, on every game. During development its hyped to levels no one can reach, then its bashed brutally as the people who hyped it realize it wont live up to expectations. All you have to do right now is look at the various games in beta to see the same pattern repeat itself over and over.
I got dragged into PotBS because hubby is a wooden ship maniac (waves at hubby). Didn't expect to like it, just wanted to give it a try so I could at least understand what he was going on about. Now I'm hooked. The ability to plan strategic nastiness against other nations is just too delicious. Destroy their economy, form alliances with other nations, kill their shipping... mwuhahaha!
Linna
You know its funny that out of all the women gamers i know a large % of them get hooked on the whole PVP type elements of games. the 4 girls in my corp in EVE 3 are all hard core pvp'ers that do nothing but talk about and get excited when they blow up other peoples ships
Its nice to see that women are starting to get into game more and more now... (i know this is off topic)
But i agree with your first comment there is alwase people who will prase the game no matter what. and there will alwase be those few guys that will post somthing like this game is the SUXSORZZZZ!!!
I'm not one oft either those guys.. I just hate the fact that so many people complain so much about all new MMO's being NOT finnished... every game i have tested during beta. and played at launch. ah had a rocky start. the first day is alwase server isses day.. where the team tryes to keep the thing running as hundredes or people try to get in at the same time.. SWG,WOW,EQ, they all had problems in the start if its not one thing its another.. and thats standard..
games like EVE which i love as well.. had one of the worst starts i have ever seen. but is still making money today... so if EVE can pull it off i thing FLS will as well..
All i would like to say is that if you like the idea of POTBS then pay for it play it and support the DEV's so that one day POTBS will be sucessfull like EVE and WOW and the 12 or so other good MMO's out there.
If your not happy with a feature like AVcombat.. or any of the other features then you have 2 options... keep playing it and wait till they fix it to your liking.. or stop playing it.... but if they dont make money.. they will never fix it..
And for me there is enough good things in the game for me to be interested in the game.. till they fix other problems..
#1. The market and crafting
#2. The ship combat.
#3. The ability to take land from other countries/players
#4. The ability to get out of your ship and walk around..
EVE is alot like POTBS in many ways..but even EVE does not have #4 as a option YET.. and the fact that POTBS does have it even if its in a poor state right now.. for me is still a bonuse!!
Heh. MMOs were interesting before 2003, but prohibitively expensive to play (dial-up). Then DSL came along. Then hubby made the MAJOR mistake of getting me interested in SWG. The rest is history.
There's a lot more women in MMOs then the 'boys' think, we're just fond of creating gender confusion: many roll male toons - we like something to look at too, you know - others make it a sport to suggest to horny little boys that 'uhm, this is the internet, dude, don't you know most female toons are played by men? Geesh'.
We're evil. We're there.
=p
Linna
More women play online games than men.
Well PotBS seems to be an exception as ive yet to see or hear a single female in the last six months