Ignoring what I wrote won't make it go away. FACT: There are no auctions. No one actually bids. Guesses lead to instantaeous sales or instantaneous fails. That does not constitute an auction. FACT: Crafted items are completely generic. There is no variance in stats. There is no way to be a better or worse crafter than anyone else.
The 2nd one is an actual Fact. The first one is a malformed opinion.
You know, your habit of editing other people's post is pretty reprehensible. You want to have a different opinion from someone else, fine... But the fact in your arrogance you think you are entitled to edit and strikethrough another persons posts complete robs you of credibility. And as for "malformed opinion", why don't you tell us where the stricken through section is incorrect. I beta'd the game for 3 months, so be careful how you answer. Let me clarify my question for you: How are bids on specific items not instant win or lose versus a gradual increase in prices as various individuals attempt to outbid one another on the same item? There are no bidding wars in PoTBS. Fact, go ahead and strikethrough it. Doesn't change the reality.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Sorry pal, but ignoring facts posted BY THE DEVS and sticking to your most uninformed opinion makes you look like a total troll.
So you're asserting that there is way to make persistent, competitive bids against other players? You're suggesting that there is a way to craft items with better stats than someone else?
Because those would be lies. Have you even played this game? These things are not subject to opinion. They are simply true.
Why are you arguing against that which is false?
Yes actually you can, I already explained why you don't know how the auction system works. Apparently you don't like to read.
Ps: fixed that last part for you
Since you've clearly never played the game, I'll explain how it works to you.
You punch in a number. If it's high enough you get your item. If not, you make another guess; as many guesses as it takes until you guess right.
That is not a bid. You are not BIDDING against anyone. You either guess right or you guess wrong. That is not an auction.
Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with what "auction" and "bid" mean. Neither exist in this game, I assure you. When you actually play you'll find this is true.
Sorry pal, but ignoring facts posted BY THE DEVS and sticking to your most uninformed opinion makes you look like a total troll.
So you're asserting that there is way to make persistent, competitive bids against other players? You're suggesting that there is a way to craft items with better stats than someone else?
Because those would be lies. Have you even played this game? These things are not subject to opinion. They are simply true.
Why are you arguing against that which is false?
Yes actually you can, I already explained why you don't know how the auction system works. Apparently you don't like to read.
Ps: fixed that last part for you
Since you've clearly never played the game, I'll explain how it works to you.
You punch in a number. If it's high enough you get your item. If not, you make another guess; as many guesses as it takes until you guess right.
That is not a bid. You are not BIDDING against anyone. You either guess right or you guess wrong. That is not an auction.
Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with what "auction" and "bid" mean. Neither exist in this game, I assure you. When you actually play you'll find this is true.
Ok, no I understand what your getting at now about "bidding" etc etc. Your talking about the hard definition of bidding. For that I understand why your angry at the system. As I can pretty much agree with the fact repeated guessing is not "bidding". I kinda explained that in my previous "edited response" to you on page two (at least I think it's page two). However, majority of your original post is filled with malformed opinions. I suggest you re-write them to clarify what you actually mean.
And no, ask around for the name "DraGa" or "Victor Delgado". I played that game for months in closed beta and the last 2 months before open beta I was "Victor Delgado" and "DraGa Gurai" or something along those lines. You can probably still find my posts in the POTBS forum with the handle of DraGa.
I can also tell i've played the game a bit longer than you, if not for months more.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer . Guess not
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
As I can pretty much agree with the fact repeated guessing is not "bidding".
Ok, that's progress.
Now, the other thing I was accused of "lying" about was when I posted the fact that all crafted items are exactly the same. There is therefore no potential for a crafter to put work into his craft to produce better items than someone else. A Cerberus is a Cerberus is a Cerberus.
Would anyone now care to admit that this statement is also true?
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer . Guess not
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Ok, that's progress. Now, the other thing I was accused of "lying" about was when I posted the fact that all crafted items are exactly the same. There is therefore no potential for a crafter to put work into his craft to produce better items than someone else. A Cerberus is a Cerberus is a Cerberus. Would anyone now care to admit that this statement is also true?
I didn't proclaim you as a lier for the crafting part. As that is pretty much along the lines of how it works. However, there are advanced crafters whom can create the "master crafted" and "navy issue" versions of ships.
Or, your probably thinking about crafting in the tense of "quality". Ie: in Daoc 99% quality armor will have better armor factor, and pre-1.8 patch, more SC points than say a 98 or 97% quality armor. I believe this is what your speaking of .
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer . Guess not
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
[edit]: Poop, re-reading my origional post I see typos all in it. Word to the wise; don't type when your watching TV and trying to exclaim a valid argument.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer . Guess not
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
see, I read what you're typing, but sadly it just says "POTBS RULES!...YOU SUXXORS!...POTBS FTW!" over and over again.
Seriously, try and have an actual opinion other than "I LOVE MY MMO! YOU SHOULD LOVE MY MMO! IT IS THE SHIZNIT!"
As that is pretty much along the lines of how it works
Fantastic. Now that we've agreed that facts are facts we can get back to being a big, happy gaming family.
As for the rest, that stands. It represents my opinion, formed during open beta and prelaunch. Disagree with my opinion all you want; that's what they're for. But whenever someone looks at a horse and calls it a zebra, I will continue to point at the horse until you admit what it is.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd .
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer . Guess not
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
see, I read what you're typing, but sadly it just says "POTBS RULES!...YOU SUXXORS!...POTBS FTW!" over and over again.
Seriously, try and have an actual opinion other than "I LOVE MY MMO! YOU SHOULD LOVE MY MMO! IT IS THE SHIZNIT!"
g'night now.
Riiiiiiggghht. No, by your definition I'm not alowed to point out flaws in someone's post that attacks a game that I have knowledge that points out said attacker's flawed "opinions". All I see when I read your posts are
"Your not aloud to speak against someone who doesn't like an MMO lest you be marked as a fanboi and ignored because we won't hear anything else!". It goes both ways my friend. Plus, I don't play POTBS anymore. It does have it's flaws which is the reason why I'm waiting a couple months for them to fix them. If they don't I'm simply going to play AOC or Warhammer .
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
As that is pretty much along the lines of how it works Fantastic. Now that we've agreed that facts are facts we can get back to being a big, happy gaming family. As for the rest, that stands. It represents my opinion, formed during open beta and prelaunch. Disagree with my opinion all you want; that's what they're for. But whenever someone looks at a horse and calls it a zebra, I will continue to point at the horse until you admit what it is.
What if it's a horse that has been painted with permanent ink? Can I then call it a zebra?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
"Attacker", eh? Then by definition you are a "defender" and your "flawed opinions" are nothing more than you defending your game no matter what you have to say or do, objectivity be damned.
I think it's a lousy game and I want people to have the opportunity to see what led me to that conclusion. Hence, the original post.
As I said, you can disagree with that opinion all you like; that's what they're for. However, at the moment where you begin to take it personally and start referring to opinions that differ from your own as "flawed", well, credibility on the 'net might not count for much, but it's a terrible shame to lose it in any form.
I think it's a lousy game for all the reasons I originally posted. That doesn't make me "wrong" and it doesn't make me an "evil attacker". It just means I think it's a lousy game.
If you take it at a level any deeper than that, well, the problem isn't mine; it's yours.
In any case, I've had my say and I leave you to do what you will with it.
points out said attacker's flawed "opinions". Just when I thought you were being rational. "Attacker", eh? Then by definition you are a "defender" and your "flawed opinions" are nothing more than you defending your game no matter what you have to say or do, objectivity be damned. I think it's a lousy game and I want people to have the opportunity to see what led me to that conclusion. Hence, the original post. As I said, you can disagree with that opinion all you like; that's what they're for. However, at the moment where you begin to take it personally and start referring to opinions that differ from your own as "flawed", well, credibility on the 'net might not count for much, but it's a terrible shame to lose it in any form. I think it's a lousy game for all the reasons I originally posted. That doesn't make me "wrong" and it doesn't make me an "evil attacker". It just means I think it's a lousy game. If you take it at a level any deeper than that, well, the problem isn't mine; it's yours. In any case, I've had my say and I leave you to do what you will with it.
Just a moment ago you were proclaiming everything you said were fact? Now you've changed to "most" of it were opinions and only a few were facts. Wheres your rational gone?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I agree with the most of the original poster's comments, and I see it got the attention of all the fanbois. Sorry man, for all the time we waited for this game and all the hopes we had for it, it's just not fun. Repetitive boring quests, everything is instanced, limited PVP, lag, CTD's, goofy avatar combat. The game is just a disapointment. It does have involved DEV's going for it but you wonder, after all these years, is this the best you could come up with? Maybe they will move the game in the right direction but they will need to do that quickly to keep many people playing the game.
-Repetitive boring quests: He said this indeed and I agree. Hence why I'm waiting for some time.
-Everything is instanced: Well, when you do as much as they want to in future patches this is the only route technology wise for now.
-Limited Pvp: Untrue, this will evolve and become massive later in a server's lifespan. In closed beta it took little over 3weeks to get some MAJOR action going. Partly due to low populations.
-Lag: What mmo did NOT have lag or graphics lag at launch? They are still a couple days off from official launch and have not even done their first Retail patch yet.
-CTD's: Once again refer to "Lag" response right above ^.
-Goofy Avatar Combat: Avatar combat was added at a later date (early 07) because they wanted to get sea combat and all it's little intricate numbers working right before they went ahead with this. Once again, might I refer you to how much of a Crapshoot Eq2 and WoW's combat system was on day 1 of launch (even months down the line).
Nothing either you nor the OP has said are valid arguements to put down POTBs. Granted, I'm not a fanboi and I'm going defending the game because neither of you are presenting complete arguements without opinionated and falsified responses. I will agree the game needs a lot of work. Then again, what mmo's released in the past 2years don't STILL? The game is indeed boring once you hit 40. If your becoming bored early on your doing everything wrong.
Suggestions:
-Get into large hunting partys for the HIGH end encounter ships. Get a full party going and raid a Treasure Galleon Convoy (8 ships lvl 45+). You can do this starting at 20-50, it's actually pretty fun leading a wolf pack against large, slow going, heavily gunned, heavily manned, ships .
-Stop soloing a LOT. Granted it's fun sometimes to do it at your own pace. However, you will get bored pretty quickly.
-Try to develope strategies to make boarding combat quicker (ie: easier to take the ship in boarding combat before you get blown to smitherines by outside friendlys of his).
-Stop demanding how the game "should be" and take it for how it is. You will appeciate it a lot more. People who have problems with instancing are generally the people who like to gank single targets by enormous amounts of friendlys so it then becomes ez-mode and defend it by saying "well if he wasn't wanting to die he shouldn't have come near our pvp area".
-Being angry at a game is silly.
-DraGa
A few things:
- Repetitive boring quest: checked.. I will not pay for a game in which the way to improve the char. is boring and repetitive as this one. Others games are repetitive, but this one is a winner.
- Everything instanced is NOT the ´only technology wise for´ on modern and serious MMOs (See the moderns and the not so moderns MMOs like WoW, LOTRO, SWG, EvE, etc.. They even try to pull up the numbers of non-instanced areas as a way to show the excellence of the game, like when they say that 90% of the game is NOT instanced)... In fact its the contrary ,its the lazy way to present a linear and limited world. All games try to avoid it at maximum, its anti-climax, unrealistic and shows defective technology. Sid Meir´s Pirate, a game from the past century, was like that, so dont tell me that this is the only tecnology necessary for the games nowdays. A few games like AoC, for example, have some instances, and they are worried for this FLOP... But they bet that the world is big enough to cover this up. Instead, PoBS treat zones as its a good thing, and CANT be changed on future, only with patches, without revamping the game TOTALLY, which will not happen, not now, not in future. DDO is still blamed of its failure because of this.
- PvP is a bet on future. For now its really boring and unimaginative (I am talking about the ship PvP, I dont need to speak about the avatar fights, because I have seen better fights on Flash games around Internet), but somewhat fun on the beggining. I repeat, they all are betting on future RvR high-end, but its totally unknow how this will be...In fact, its not the PvP that is boring and unimaginative, its the ship combat. Its so lousy and unimaginative that you can increase difficult like an old arcade game. And increasing difficult will not mean better AI, as modern games, but only more ships to fight... It seens that PoBS devs are pretty lazy, uhn?
- Bad launching is no excuse. I dont remeber those problems on LOTRO...And even if was an excuse, it cant be counted as a positive point. The point is, the game is bad. Today. And I dont believe it will be better in the future, not because its bad today, but because there is people who think that its ok today. And as far I know, this thing is only to be offered on Station Pass, so 5k people on it will be fine for any purpose.
- Again, its sounds more like an excuse about why the avatar fight is lousy than an explanation. Thats because avatar fight is really bad. And its at least 35% of the game. And, no, no game was launched with so bad concept in a core part of it. I do think that combat is the core of a PvP oriented game, and telling me that they have rushed it will not make it better for me. If its in the future that you are betting, then lets wait the future to play this thing... I have seen a lot better avatar combat on flash games.
The game is boring until you hit 40?!?!? And how can anyone do everything wrong on a MMO?!?! Unless the MMO is so stupid that it has only one way to have fun, which let it with no fun at all (IMHO). Then it makes boring on 90% of the levels, if you wish to play the way you want, correct? I dont buy this thing of ´it get better after level x !!!´ for personal experience... The most fun part of the best MMOs I have played was the beggining, the discoveries, the mistakes, the different ways to find something, etc... And now you tell me that its defective on 90% of it?
And not demanding the game, as it should be, would let it be exactly as it is today, and for your own word, its a boring game...
- Repetitive boring quest: checked.. I will not pay for a game in which the way to improve the char. is boring and repetitive as this one. Others games are repetitive, but this one is a winner.
Just fyi, open sea combat is a much faster way of leveling than doing quests.
I repeat, they all are betting on future RvR high-end, but its totally unknow how this will be...
Untrue. We had multiple map victories in beta, atleast 5. So the devs know exactly how the system works.
I don't really want to get into the middle of this crappy thread but something has been really bothering me....
The auction system in PotBS IS a true auction system as 'guessing' the fair market value of an item takes place in all auctions. If you break both the WoW (the buyout auction system) and the PotBS (double-blind auction system) you'll see they are based off the same principals.
In WoW as many of us know, you can place a bid which in a sense is a guess at the true market price of an item. If someone comes by and makes a higher bid then yours, your guess at the market price was obviously too low. The fact you can buyout the item using what the seller guesses the true market price should be are minor nuisances that are local to buyout auctions.
In PotBS, again all you are doing is making a guess as to what the fair market value of the item should be. If you are wrong then you came in below what the seller believed was the market value and you must make a new guess. If your able to find a price that you and seller agree on (note it can be higher the what the seller’s minimum bid) then that price must be market value - which is then shown to new bidders and sellers.
In a double blind system, it is just as much the sellers responsibility as the buyers responsibility to check the previous market values for the item in question. In your previous example you said that players bought some item for 300 when you had originally put the item up for 70. That's a clear example of you under appreciating the value of the item you put up on auction and hopefully in the future sellers and buyers will see the market price of said item is 300 and react accordingly.
After playing FFXI for 2 years and WoW since alpha (I jump back and forth between the 2, it's a bad habit) I have to say as easy as WoW's auction house is to navigate and get things done quickly - I prefer the double blind system of FFXI. It provides me a lot of leeway for dumping a large amount of items quickly and cheaply (if need be) or looking for others who are dumping their items so I can turn a profit by selling the items at normal price.
For all of FFXI economic short comings, the AH was one of their few bright spots and really what kept FFXI from falling flat on its face due to the huge infestation of RMTs. If you need another example of where double blind systems have worked look and ask around at CoX as they implemented that auction system there and it seems to be working out great.
Anyway hope that clears up some of this discussion. In summary the double blind auction system IS a real auction system and guessing is a large part of all auction systems.
Take care.
Currently Playing: GW2 Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR
I don't really want to get into the middle of this crappy thread but something has been really bothering me.... The auction system in PotBS IS a true auction system as 'guessing' the fair market value of an item takes place in all auctions. If you break both the WoW (the buyout auction system) and the PotBS (double-blind auction system) you'll see they are based off the same principals. In WoW as many of us know, you can place a bid which in a sense is a guess at the true market price of an item. If someone comes by and makes a higher bid then yours, your guess at the market price was obviously too low. The fact you can buyout the item using what the seller guesses the true market price should be are minor nuisances that are local to buyout auctions. In PotBS, again all you are doing is making a guess as to what the fair market value of the item should be. If you are wrong then you came in below what the seller believed was the market value and you must make a new guess. If your able to find a price that you and seller agree on (note it can be higher the what the seller’s minimum bid) then that price must be market value - which is then shown to new bidders and sellers. In a double blind system, it is just as much the sellers responsibility as the buyers responsibility to check the previous market values for the item in question. In your previous example you said that players bought some item for 300 when you had originally put the item up for 70. That's a clear example of you under appreciating the value of the item you put up on auction and hopefully in the future sellers and buyers will see the market price of said item is 300 and react accordingly. After playing FFXI for 2 years and WoW since alpha (I jump back and forth between the 2, it's a bad habit) I have to say as easy as WoW's auction house is to navigate and get things done quickly - I prefer the double blind system of FFXI. It provides me a lot of leeway for dumping a large amount of items quickly and cheaply (if need be) or looking for others who are dumping their items so I can turn a profit by selling the items at normal price. For all of FFXI economic short comings, the AH was one of their few bright spots and really what kept FFXI from falling flat on its face due to the huge infestation of RMTs. If you need another example of where double blind systems have worked look and ask around at CoX as they implemented that auction system there and it seems to be working out great. Anyway hope that clears up some of this discussion. In summary the double blind auction system IS a real auction system and guessing is a large part of all auction systems. Take care.
Reading this entire 5 pages of postings, I'm just going to shake my head. This poster above is actually right. Just because a auction system is not a WoW auction system does not mean it is not an auction or works.
As stated FF has been using this system for years and as I have played FF and even CoX this system works just fine for players paying attention to what it is they are posting thier items at and paying for them.
In regards to the crafting system, I have only been playing a week, but the crafting system is alot more complex than what the OP has stated.
He is correct that nothing you craft will ever be as good as any elses. however, the crafting in the world is vast as no 1 player can do it all, just like no 1 player can build and outfit an entire ship by themselves as far as I can tell because of the vast areas of craftman needed for the parts. Which is what brings the factions and societies together.
I only have the structures built for half of what is needed to build good ships, therefore you have to depend on others around you to really turn profit in crafting. I think it is a good thing. *shrugs* who knows.
- Repetitive boring quest: checked.. I will not pay for a game in which the way to improve the char. is boring and repetitive as this one. Others games are repetitive, but this one is a winner.
Just fyi, open sea combat is a much faster way of leveling than doing quests.
I repeat, they all are betting on future RvR high-end, but its totally unknow how this will be...
Untrue. We had multiple map victories in beta, atleast 5. So the devs know exactly how the system works.
Naval combat is a faster way to level? Untrue. I have been there, thats simple not truth... You get dozens of numb mind missions and on this missions you will have also open sea combat, then you gain xp from the combat as for the quest, as any other MMO. Even if this game was a grind party, as you seens to look at it, that would not be a good thing. Only orientals MMO players enjoy this grind thing. Fortunatelly, at least at this level, PoBS is not that awfull... You dont have to do the mind nubbing grind feast to level, like korean games... You just have to do the mind nubing missions to do that...
Untruth that the high-end was tested. The totally controlled (and very low populated universe) of beta is totally different from reality... The high-end WAS NOT tested, everyone with common-sense and not fanboy is betting that it will save the game, even the die hard fans (who dont like the repetitive thing) , at some time, grasp their hopes on that, and that only. But, as we noticed, the dev team is just too lazy to develop the problems that SURELLY will rise on the high-end. Its sure because EVERY game, in some point, has problem to deal with high-end, because its IMPOSSIBLE to beta test it for sure... The problem here is that mostly games are also fun on the road. This one, as told from a die har dfan, only kicks after level 40 (and there is, if I am not incorrect a level cap of 50, taking for right that you seen to assume that the grind part is the best way to level, to grind from 1 - 40 on that repetitive thing is much more than I can take... And even if you are wrong about this, it do not make the things better, because the missions, the best way to level, are also mind nubbing, because the whole kabong is sadly boring).
There is different reasons to enjoy a game... I, for myself, do like sandbox games, with skills, immersion, PvP and feeling... The best game I ever played was SWG followed by UO. However I do enjoyed a game with a lot of flaws on those aspects. LOTRO. I do not consider LOTRO a good game, from my point of view. Its not sandbox as I like, you cant customize the character the way you want with the skills, too much wow-oriented and a flop PvP... But I played the game, and enjoyed it, because I do love Tolkien, and feeling in the world with some very immersie quests (mostly the books) were enough for me to pay the monthly fee. I loved to RP on there, I enjoyed other things as exploring the wonderfull world of Tolkien, to solve quests related to events of the books and so on.... But notice that when someone criticezed the aspects of the game, I agree with them and put a line on : "Yes, the PvP is awfull, however you must try to do the book x, its very good, and Rivendell is pretty cool!!! Have you tried the horse riding on the festival also?" or "I can fell that Turbine will improve the PvP as its a well designed game, and there is a lot of space left to develop also. "
ITs ok you to enjoy pirates theme, I myself enjoy it very much (for this I was expecting this game even more than I expect AoC today). However, once there, you HAVE to assume the mistakes of the game and say ´Well, its a crappy game, but I enjoyed this and that´. Sorry, but when you tell me that naval and avatar fights are ok, that the missions are not boring, I can see its not truth, then I think ´those people have what they wanted, then this thing will not improve to the level to be playable for me´. I would consider if you have told something like: "The missions are boring, however I do think they will improve the thing´ (even if I disagree taht they will improve it) or ´Naval combat, after some times can be boring for most people, but this also will be better´ or ´crafting is very good´. Not something like ´After level 40 it will improve!! (?!?!?!)´ or ´you have played all wrong to not had fun with the game´ or ´Instances and zones are the last technology achievement on games, its so fun!!´.
This tells me that this game has no future, not only because of teh lazy dev team but also because of the ´yes, sir´ player base.
Ignoring what I wrote won't make it go away. FACT: There are no auctions. No one actually bids. Guesses lead to instantaeous sales or instantaneous fails. That does not constitute an auction. FACT: Crafted items are completely generic. There is no variance in stats. There is no way to be a better or worse crafter than anyone else.
The 2nd one is an actual Fact. The first one is a malformed opinion.
Actually the first one is factually correct as well. There is no 'auction'. The item goes to the first person who meets or beats the asking price. It has nothing to do with an auction. If you really think it does then you need to go read the definition of what an auction is. If it were truely an "auction" the seller would list an initial bid price and a length of time they wanted the auction to run. Then the item would go to the highest bidder to beat the minimum price at the end of the auction period.
All the current AH system is a blind retail system where the buyer has no clue what the actual price is and has to guess at it.
Personally I always started at 10 and worked my way up by 10's or 100's (depending on the price history) till I found the actual price. Minimized my money waste that way. But it is most definitely NOT an auction, not by even the most liberal application of the definition.
That said I really didn't mind the pricing system. It's a bit annoying but it's not anywhere near as bad as the OP makes it out to be. I still think EVE's market system is far superior though. With both a normal price-listed market and a method to list auction orders for higher demand items.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
No sir, it is true. I did 1-50 enough times to know how it works. Missions give you more money, whereas open sea gives you faster experience and better loot. The experience on the OS is double that of missions. So if a level 20 ship in a mission gives you 100 experience, that same ship on the OS will give you 200. Therefore if you find missions boring/repetitive, you can skip them all together.
Untruth that the high-end was tested.
In beta the RvR battles for the Caribbean were won atleast 5 times. That means people leveled 1-50, got their best ships, and conquered enough ports to win that many times. If thats not testing high end then I must have a different definition.
Consider this: In Dark Age of Camelot, the frontiers (RvR) were put in 30 days before the game went live. They were never tested at all. And yet they worked out fine, as did the same. Certainly if for Mythic that was good enough, then the many MONTHS of completely testing the high end in PotBS will be good enough aswell.
Comments
The 2nd one is an actual Fact. The first one is a malformed opinion.
You know, your habit of editing other people's post is pretty reprehensible. You want to have a different opinion from someone else, fine... But the fact in your arrogance you think you are entitled to edit and strikethrough another persons posts complete robs you of credibility. And as for "malformed opinion", why don't you tell us where the stricken through section is incorrect. I beta'd the game for 3 months, so be careful how you answer. Let me clarify my question for you: How are bids on specific items not instant win or lose versus a gradual increase in prices as various individuals attempt to outbid one another on the same item? There are no bidding wars in PoTBS. Fact, go ahead and strikethrough it. Doesn't change the reality.
I only strike through what people say when it is a complete and utter lie. The guy is trying to enforce his side and not hear anything at all. He's proclaiming things to be lies and misgivings when the devs made it the way hes complaining about because he won't read why. The guy is one of those people who play it for a week and think it's bad because they haven't seen the rest of the game, or stick to the same damn thing day after day. You shouldn't defend a troll it's rather odd
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The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
So you're asserting that there is way to make persistent, competitive bids against other players? You're suggesting that there is a way to craft items with better stats than someone else?
Because those would be lies. Have you even played this game? These things are not subject to opinion. They are simply true.
Why are you arguing against that which is false?
Yes actually you can, I already explained why you don't know how the auction system works. Apparently you don't like to read.Ps: fixed that last part for you
Since you've clearly never played the game, I'll explain how it works to you.
You punch in a number. If it's high enough you get your item. If not, you make another guess; as many guesses as it takes until you guess right.
That is not a bid. You are not BIDDING against anyone. You either guess right or you guess wrong. That is not an auction.
Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with what "auction" and "bid" mean. Neither exist in this game, I assure you. When you actually play you'll find this is true.
So you're asserting that there is way to make persistent, competitive bids against other players? You're suggesting that there is a way to craft items with better stats than someone else?
Because those would be lies. Have you even played this game? These things are not subject to opinion. They are simply true.
Why are you arguing against that which is false?
Yes actually you can, I already explained why you don't know how the auction system works. Apparently you don't like to read.Ps: fixed that last part for you
Since you've clearly never played the game, I'll explain how it works to you.
You punch in a number. If it's high enough you get your item. If not, you make another guess; as many guesses as it takes until you guess right.
That is not a bid. You are not BIDDING against anyone. You either guess right or you guess wrong. That is not an auction.
Perhaps you are simply unfamiliar with what "auction" and "bid" mean. Neither exist in this game, I assure you. When you actually play you'll find this is true.
Ok, no I understand what your getting at now about "bidding" etc etc. Your talking about the hard definition of bidding. For that I understand why your angry at the system. As I can pretty much agree with the fact repeated guessing is not "bidding". I kinda explained that in my previous "edited response" to you on page two (at least I think it's page two). However, majority of your original post is filled with malformed opinions. I suggest you re-write them to clarify what you actually mean.
And no, ask around for the name "DraGa" or "Victor Delgado". I played that game for months in closed beta and the last 2 months before open beta I was "Victor Delgado" and "DraGa Gurai" or something along those lines. You can probably still find my posts in the POTBS forum with the handle of DraGa.
I can also tell i've played the game a bit longer than you, if not for months more.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer
. Guess not 
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
As I can pretty much agree with the fact repeated guessing is not "bidding".
Ok, that's progress.
Now, the other thing I was accused of "lying" about was when I posted the fact that all crafted items are exactly the same. There is therefore no potential for a crafter to put work into his craft to produce better items than someone else. A Cerberus is a Cerberus is a Cerberus.
Would anyone now care to admit that this statement is also true?
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer
. Guess not 
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Or, your probably thinking about crafting in the tense of "quality". Ie: in Daoc 99% quality armor will have better armor factor, and pre-1.8 patch, more SC points than say a 98 or 97% quality armor. I believe this is what your speaking of
.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer
. Guess not 
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
[edit]: Poop, re-reading my origional post I see typos all in it. Word to the wise; don't type when your watching TV and trying to exclaim a valid argument
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The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer
. Guess not 
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
see, I read what you're typing, but sadly it just says "POTBS RULES!...YOU SUXXORS!...POTBS FTW!" over and over again.
Seriously, try and have an actual opinion other than "I LOVE MY MMO! YOU SHOULD LOVE MY MMO! IT IS THE SHIZNIT!"
g'night now.
As that is pretty much along the lines of how it works
Fantastic. Now that we've agreed that facts are facts we can get back to being a big, happy gaming family.
As for the rest, that stands. It represents my opinion, formed during open beta and prelaunch. Disagree with my opinion all you want; that's what they're for. But whenever someone looks at a horse and calls it a zebra, I will continue to point at the horse until you admit what it is.
That's a lot of typing to say absolutely nothing.
It's a gift I know. Though I was hoping some people in these forums would appreciate a clear train of thought and an explained answer
. Guess not 
I'd love one, shoot me a PM when you plan to post it.
Can PM's be shot?
see, I read what you're typing, but sadly it just says "POTBS RULES!...YOU SUXXORS!...POTBS FTW!" over and over again.
Seriously, try and have an actual opinion other than "I LOVE MY MMO! YOU SHOULD LOVE MY MMO! IT IS THE SHIZNIT!"
g'night now.
Riiiiiiggghht. No, by your definition I'm not alowed to point out flaws in someone's post that attacks a game that I have knowledge that points out said attacker's flawed "opinions". All I see when I read your posts are
"Your not aloud to speak against someone who doesn't like an MMO lest you be marked as a fanboi and ignored because we won't hear anything else!". It goes both ways my friend. Plus, I don't play POTBS anymore. It does have it's flaws which is the reason why I'm waiting a couple months for them to fix them. If they don't I'm simply going to play AOC or Warhammer
.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
What if it's a horse that has been painted with permanent ink? Can I then call it a zebra?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
points out said attacker's flawed "opinions".
Just when I thought you were being rational.
"Attacker", eh? Then by definition you are a "defender" and your "flawed opinions" are nothing more than you defending your game no matter what you have to say or do, objectivity be damned.
I think it's a lousy game and I want people to have the opportunity to see what led me to that conclusion. Hence, the original post.
As I said, you can disagree with that opinion all you like; that's what they're for. However, at the moment where you begin to take it personally and start referring to opinions that differ from your own as "flawed", well, credibility on the 'net might not count for much, but it's a terrible shame to lose it in any form.
I think it's a lousy game for all the reasons I originally posted. That doesn't make me "wrong" and it doesn't make me an "evil attacker". It just means I think it's a lousy game.
If you take it at a level any deeper than that, well, the problem isn't mine; it's yours.
In any case, I've had my say and I leave you to do what you will with it.
Just a moment ago you were proclaiming everything you said were fact? Now you've changed to "most" of it were opinions and only a few were facts. Wheres your rational gone?
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
there it goes!
/waves it out of the window
BYE BYE!
-Everything is instanced: Well, when you do as much as they want to in future patches this is the only route technology wise for now.
-Limited Pvp: Untrue, this will evolve and become massive later in a server's lifespan. In closed beta it took little over 3weeks to get some MAJOR action going. Partly due to low populations.
-Lag: What mmo did NOT have lag or graphics lag at launch? They are still a couple days off from official launch and have not even done their first Retail patch yet.
-CTD's: Once again refer to "Lag" response right above ^.
-Goofy Avatar Combat: Avatar combat was added at a later date (early 07) because they wanted to get sea combat and all it's little intricate numbers working right before they went ahead with this. Once again, might I refer you to how much of a Crapshoot Eq2 and WoW's combat system was on day 1 of launch (even months down the line).
Nothing either you nor the OP has said are valid arguements to put down POTBs. Granted, I'm not a fanboi and I'm going defending the game because neither of you are presenting complete arguements without opinionated and falsified responses. I will agree the game needs a lot of work. Then again, what mmo's released in the past 2years don't STILL? The game is indeed boring once you hit 40. If your becoming bored early on your doing everything wrong.
Suggestions:
-Get into large hunting partys for the HIGH end encounter ships. Get a full party going and raid a Treasure Galleon Convoy (8 ships lvl 45+). You can do this starting at 20-50, it's actually pretty fun leading a wolf pack against large, slow going, heavily gunned, heavily manned, ships
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-Stop soloing a LOT. Granted it's fun sometimes to do it at your own pace. However, you will get bored pretty quickly.
-Try to develope strategies to make boarding combat quicker (ie: easier to take the ship in boarding combat before you get blown to smitherines by outside friendlys of his).
-Stop demanding how the game "should be" and take it for how it is. You will appeciate it a lot more. People who have problems with instancing are generally the people who like to gank single targets by enormous amounts of friendlys so it then becomes ez-mode and defend it by saying "well if he wasn't wanting to die he shouldn't have come near our pvp area".
-Being angry at a game is silly.
-DraGa
A few things:- Repetitive boring quest: checked.. I will not pay for a game in which the way to improve the char. is boring and repetitive as this one. Others games are repetitive, but this one is a winner.
- Everything instanced is NOT the ´only technology wise for´ on modern and serious MMOs (See the moderns and the not so moderns MMOs like WoW, LOTRO, SWG, EvE, etc.. They even try to pull up the numbers of non-instanced areas as a way to show the excellence of the game, like when they say that 90% of the game is NOT instanced)... In fact its the contrary ,its the lazy way to present a linear and limited world. All games try to avoid it at maximum, its anti-climax, unrealistic and shows defective technology. Sid Meir´s Pirate, a game from the past century, was like that, so dont tell me that this is the only tecnology necessary for the games nowdays. A few games like AoC, for example, have some instances, and they are worried for this FLOP... But they bet that the world is big enough to cover this up. Instead, PoBS treat zones as its a good thing, and CANT be changed on future, only with patches, without revamping the game TOTALLY, which will not happen, not now, not in future. DDO is still blamed of its failure because of this.
- PvP is a bet on future. For now its really boring and unimaginative (I am talking about the ship PvP, I dont need to speak about the avatar fights, because I have seen better fights on Flash games around Internet), but somewhat fun on the beggining. I repeat, they all are betting on future RvR high-end, but its totally unknow how this will be...In fact, its not the PvP that is boring and unimaginative, its the ship combat. Its so lousy and unimaginative that you can increase difficult like an old arcade game. And increasing difficult will not mean better AI, as modern games, but only more ships to fight... It seens that PoBS devs are pretty lazy, uhn?
- Bad launching is no excuse. I dont remeber those problems on LOTRO...And even if was an excuse, it cant be counted as a positive point. The point is, the game is bad. Today. And I dont believe it will be better in the future, not because its bad today, but because there is people who think that its ok today. And as far I know, this thing is only to be offered on Station Pass, so 5k people on it will be fine for any purpose.
- Again, its sounds more like an excuse about why the avatar fight is lousy than an explanation. Thats because avatar fight is really bad. And its at least 35% of the game. And, no, no game was launched with so bad concept in a core part of it. I do think that combat is the core of a PvP oriented game, and telling me that they have rushed it will not make it better for me. If its in the future that you are betting, then lets wait the future to play this thing... I have seen a lot better avatar combat on flash games.
The game is boring until you hit 40?!?!? And how can anyone do everything wrong on a MMO?!?! Unless the MMO is so stupid that it has only one way to have fun, which let it with no fun at all (IMHO). Then it makes boring on 90% of the levels, if you wish to play the way you want, correct? I dont buy this thing of ´it get better after level x !!!´ for personal experience... The most fun part of the best MMOs I have played was the beggining, the discoveries, the mistakes, the different ways to find something, etc... And now you tell me that its defective on 90% of it?
And not demanding the game, as it should be, would let it be exactly as it is today, and for your own word, its a boring game...
Just fyi, open sea combat is a much faster way of leveling than doing quests.
Untrue. We had multiple map victories in beta, atleast 5. So the devs know exactly how the system works.
I don't really want to get into the middle of this crappy thread but something has been really bothering me....
The auction system in PotBS IS a true auction system as 'guessing' the fair market value of an item takes place in all auctions. If you break both the WoW (the buyout auction system) and the PotBS (double-blind auction system) you'll see they are based off the same principals.
In WoW as many of us know, you can place a bid which in a sense is a guess at the true market price of an item. If someone comes by and makes a higher bid then yours, your guess at the market price was obviously too low. The fact you can buyout the item using what the seller guesses the true market price should be are minor nuisances that are local to buyout auctions.
In PotBS, again all you are doing is making a guess as to what the fair market value of the item should be. If you are wrong then you came in below what the seller believed was the market value and you must make a new guess. If your able to find a price that you and seller agree on (note it can be higher the what the seller’s minimum bid) then that price must be market value - which is then shown to new bidders and sellers.
In a double blind system, it is just as much the sellers responsibility as the buyers responsibility to check the previous market values for the item in question. In your previous example you said that players bought some item for 300 when you had originally put the item up for 70. That's a clear example of you under appreciating the value of the item you put up on auction and hopefully in the future sellers and buyers will see the market price of said item is 300 and react accordingly.
After playing FFXI for 2 years and WoW since alpha (I jump back and forth between the 2, it's a bad habit) I have to say as easy as WoW's auction house is to navigate and get things done quickly - I prefer the double blind system of FFXI. It provides me a lot of leeway for dumping a large amount of items quickly and cheaply (if need be) or looking for others who are dumping their items so I can turn a profit by selling the items at normal price.
For all of FFXI economic short comings, the AH was one of their few bright spots and really what kept FFXI from falling flat on its face due to the huge infestation of RMTs. If you need another example of where double blind systems have worked look and ask around at CoX as they implemented that auction system there and it seems to be working out great.
Anyway hope that clears up some of this discussion. In summary the double blind auction system IS a real auction system and guessing is a large part of all auction systems.
Take care.
Currently Playing: GW2
Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR
The Aphelion MMO Blog - GW2 Initial Impressions
Reading this entire 5 pages of postings, I'm just going to shake my head. This poster above is actually right. Just because a auction system is not a WoW auction system does not mean it is not an auction or works.
As stated FF has been using this system for years and as I have played FF and even CoX this system works just fine for players paying attention to what it is they are posting thier items at and paying for them.
In regards to the crafting system, I have only been playing a week, but the crafting system is alot more complex than what the OP has stated.
He is correct that nothing you craft will ever be as good as any elses. however, the crafting in the world is vast as no 1 player can do it all, just like no 1 player can build and outfit an entire ship by themselves as far as I can tell because of the vast areas of craftman needed for the parts. Which is what brings the factions and societies together.
I only have the structures built for half of what is needed to build good ships, therefore you have to depend on others around you to really turn profit in crafting. I think it is a good thing. *shrugs* who knows.
Just fyi, open sea combat is a much faster way of leveling than doing quests.
Untrue. We had multiple map victories in beta, atleast 5. So the devs know exactly how the system works.
Naval combat is a faster way to level? Untrue. I have been there, thats simple not truth... You get dozens of numb mind missions and on this missions you will have also open sea combat, then you gain xp from the combat as for the quest, as any other MMO. Even if this game was a grind party, as you seens to look at it, that would not be a good thing. Only orientals MMO players enjoy this grind thing. Fortunatelly, at least at this level, PoBS is not that awfull... You dont have to do the mind nubbing grind feast to level, like korean games... You just have to do the mind nubing missions to do that...
Untruth that the high-end was tested. The totally controlled (and very low populated universe) of beta is totally different from reality... The high-end WAS NOT tested, everyone with common-sense and not fanboy is betting that it will save the game, even the die hard fans (who dont like the repetitive thing) , at some time, grasp their hopes on that, and that only. But, as we noticed, the dev team is just too lazy to develop the problems that SURELLY will rise on the high-end. Its sure because EVERY game, in some point, has problem to deal with high-end, because its IMPOSSIBLE to beta test it for sure... The problem here is that mostly games are also fun on the road. This one, as told from a die har dfan, only kicks after level 40 (and there is, if I am not incorrect a level cap of 50, taking for right that you seen to assume that the grind part is the best way to level, to grind from 1 - 40 on that repetitive thing is much more than I can take... And even if you are wrong about this, it do not make the things better, because the missions, the best way to level, are also mind nubbing, because the whole kabong is sadly boring).
Ok, lets settle this out...
There is different reasons to enjoy a game... I, for myself, do like sandbox games, with skills, immersion, PvP and feeling... The best game I ever played was SWG followed by UO. However I do enjoyed a game with a lot of flaws on those aspects. LOTRO. I do not consider LOTRO a good game, from my point of view. Its not sandbox as I like, you cant customize the character the way you want with the skills, too much wow-oriented and a flop PvP... But I played the game, and enjoyed it, because I do love Tolkien, and feeling in the world with some very immersie quests (mostly the books) were enough for me to pay the monthly fee. I loved to RP on there, I enjoyed other things as exploring the wonderfull world of Tolkien, to solve quests related to events of the books and so on.... But notice that when someone criticezed the aspects of the game, I agree with them and put a line on : "Yes, the PvP is awfull, however you must try to do the book x, its very good, and Rivendell is pretty cool!!! Have you tried the horse riding on the festival also?" or "I can fell that Turbine will improve the PvP as its a well designed game, and there is a lot of space left to develop also. "
ITs ok you to enjoy pirates theme, I myself enjoy it very much (for this I was expecting this game even more than I expect AoC today). However, once there, you HAVE to assume the mistakes of the game and say ´Well, its a crappy game, but I enjoyed this and that´. Sorry, but when you tell me that naval and avatar fights are ok, that the missions are not boring, I can see its not truth, then I think ´those people have what they wanted, then this thing will not improve to the level to be playable for me´. I would consider if you have told something like: "The missions are boring, however I do think they will improve the thing´ (even if I disagree taht they will improve it) or ´Naval combat, after some times can be boring for most people, but this also will be better´ or ´crafting is very good´. Not something like ´After level 40 it will improve!! (?!?!?!)´ or ´you have played all wrong to not had fun with the game´ or ´Instances and zones are the last technology achievement on games, its so fun!!´.
This tells me that this game has no future, not only because of teh lazy dev team but also because of the ´yes, sir´ player base.
Actually the first one is factually correct as well. There is no 'auction'. The item goes to the first person who meets or beats the asking price. It has nothing to do with an auction. If you really think it does then you need to go read the definition of what an auction is. If it were truely an "auction" the seller would list an initial bid price and a length of time they wanted the auction to run. Then the item would go to the highest bidder to beat the minimum price at the end of the auction period.
All the current AH system is a blind retail system where the buyer has no clue what the actual price is and has to guess at it.
Personally I always started at 10 and worked my way up by 10's or 100's (depending on the price history) till I found the actual price. Minimized my money waste that way. But it is most definitely NOT an auction, not by even the most liberal application of the definition.
That said I really didn't mind the pricing system. It's a bit annoying but it's not anywhere near as bad as the OP makes it out to be. I still think EVE's market system is far superior though. With both a normal price-listed market and a method to list auction orders for higher demand items.
"A ship-of-war is the best ambassador." - Oliver Cromwell
No sir, it is true. I did 1-50 enough times to know how it works. Missions give you more money, whereas open sea gives you faster experience and better loot. The experience on the OS is double that of missions. So if a level 20 ship in a mission gives you 100 experience, that same ship on the OS will give you 200. Therefore if you find missions boring/repetitive, you can skip them all together.
In beta the RvR battles for the Caribbean were won atleast 5 times. That means people leveled 1-50, got their best ships, and conquered enough ports to win that many times. If thats not testing high end then I must have a different definition.
Consider this: In Dark Age of Camelot, the frontiers (RvR) were put in 30 days before the game went live. They were never tested at all. And yet they worked out fine, as did the same. Certainly if for Mythic that was good enough, then the many MONTHS of completely testing the high end in PotBS will be good enough aswell.
LOL! Yes, because having the exact same naval battle 500 times in a row would be refreshing and new.