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How far have we really come in 10 years of MMORPG gaming?
Rekindle
Member UncommonPosts: 1,206
Last week I did something I thought I would never ever do again. I resubbed to Ultima Online. Why you ask, would I do such an insane thing? The answer is simple: I wanted to go retro for a bit because I'm totally disillusioned with modern games. I don't necessairly think I've 'solved' my gaming boredom 'problems' per say but so far its been far more fun then I anticipated.
Frankly, the new games just don't hold a candle to the feelings of the old days. Thats not to say that the old games presently running (necessairly) hold a candle to themselves either but I began to get curious and finally willing to part with 20 bucks just to see.
Many forum posts, on these forums in particular, suggest a number of reasons why, in present times, there are so many gamers unable to rekindle that mmorpg gaming feeling of old. Some attribute desensitization, others suggest lackluster games that offer nothing truly new. One of the favorite cop-outs for the spoon fed, kill X fedex style games of modern times is the 'you'll never recreate that first kiss feeling' (which is true to some extend but not a valid defacto answer to cover all the aspects of the cookie cutter model that has been born from the first gen games). In fact I think there are many reasons and I don't think there is one smoking gun....I also understand the feelings or lack thereof to be entirely subjective. Yet, I know there is a big sub-community of people that feel the way I do. It lead me to an interesting question - what has really changed in 10 years of gaming? What new concepts have been added, and what has been retained from the old days? The short answer for me is the treadmill approach that everyone uses these days. Most modern games put you on a set of rails from level 1 on. Games like Everquest and Ultima Online had no point, you were on your own to forge your own. Most modern mmos with some bright exceptions, are entirely and absoultely task driven. The point, is the task.
I understand that there are more people playing mmos' (a LOOTTTT more) today than 5 years ago. This in turn means a whole generation of mmo gamers that did not have CR's in EQ or have to live through the PK ganks in UO. So today's games are new to many, and in 10 years someone who is just starting to become a mmo gaming enthusaist now may very well have a post similar to this one.
I think little has changed except things that don't benefit the consumer. Like the rest of our consumer society we, as consumers of these products are brainwashed into accepting lower quality standards. The developers haven't done much to advance the genre really and lean on core game concepts invented by their fathers coupled with concepts that make their life easier. I also think that there are a lot of newb developers out there that have been themselves brain washed into thinking 'this is gaming'.
The modern mmorpg development template seems geared towards ease of implementation and less to do with making a good roleplaying game. Rather, content is serialized and the patterns emerge very quickly that we, as gamers call 'The Grind'.
We almost need a new subset to define the games that the original mmo crowd fell in love with.
Flame me now - got my fire resists up.
Comments
We have come a long way since the advent of the Online Gaming. There are some who may not lke the direction and where we are currently at. But , as a guy who played MUDS, and who thought that graphical online games were a deam at 4800 baud..I can tell you I am very happy with what we have now.
A lot of what youve written appears to be based on WoW. Make little doubt, WoW is not the end point of MMORPGs. It is not the gold standard. It is a step along the path. When the history of MMORPGs is written the contribution of WoW will not be in Game inovation but in its ability to expand the playerbase to a huge degree and bring MMORPGs into mainstream awareness. A big reason they did this is by the 'dumbing down" of the complexities that can exist within these games.
HOwever, nnot only is such a large MMORPG audiance created, they are also now educated. And thus, the industry has a fantastic oportunity to build much more complex and robust games. There are players who miss the feeling of the old days UO, EQ1, etc. But those players were the trailblazers ...the few who stepped into an unknown and untested frontier of gaming and helped establish the foundation of what we have now. Of course, todays feelings wont compare to that. HOwever the new gamers now entering the genre are now experiencing things for the first time. 10 years from now they may be saying "God, I just dont get the same feelign I got when I first played WoW, etc"
Torrential
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
Some MMO have evolved a lot for the better, others are just terrible in my eyes and I absolutely detest them XD lol.
I like how they lessened the grind in some games, that they're more stable, offer better controls, UI's and chat options.
I dislike the way games go F2P with item shops, I hate the guild creations before MMO even start, the 'status', the importance of lvl's etc..
Shrug, have a dislike for certain MMO , their community and players, and love others and feel they have progressed.
The last 10 years?
Instead of having a few excellent games, with got many crap ones copying each other.
My addiction History:
>> EQ1 2000-2004 - Shaman/Bard/Wizard/Monk - nolife raid-whore
>> WoW 2004-2009 + Cataclysm for 2 months - hardcore casual
>> Current status : done with MMO, too old for that crap.
I have been playing Ultima Online for the past 3 months now and I'm loving it. As an old UO Vet, I really like the Kingdom Reborn client. Even though the game is 10 years old i think it still has more to it then current mmo's.
It's a sandbox game. I think that is what is missing in most new mmo's. MMO company's today are really good at making a game where you get to focus on doing 2-3 main things like leveling and fighting but that's where it stops. It can be very pollished but shallow at the same time. Ultima is loaded with all kinds of other things you can focus on. I also think a skill based system is more robust then level based.
Just my thoughts, but I'm glad to be playing Kingdom Reborn... It's like driving around you favorite old car that just got a new coat of paint.
-Pkpie
Unfortuneatly some games that may have been great games had very bad launches. Vanguard for example has some intresting game play but was very clunky, unstable from the start. The games is better now but to many people have a bad taste in their mouth so they won't go back. Companies only get one shot to launch and if you launch an unplayable game your pretty much sunk. It would seem that many companies have been in such a hurry to get the game out that they miss the basics in their attempt to make something new.
Players are more savvy and the internet has made players more informed.
This being said coming out with a game that is revoultionary is not safe. Coming out with a WoW clone is safe, at least from a marketing department stand point. What marketing departments fail to realize is that there is only one WoW and no one will recreate that kind of population.
Hopefully games like AoC have learned a lesson, better to delay and release a stable game than to scre up the launch, but even here they have delayed twice so we shall have to see how people react when they do launch.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
we peaked twice, later 90s then again around 2003-2004 then have fallen a long, long way
Nice read.
While mmo's have moved forward in graphic capability I don't feel they have took a large leap in creativity. There are many directions mmorpgs can take to reach a desired playerbase. Whether a compnay is going to try to find a medium within that content is the question. Players play mmorpgs to have fun and control over a environment. There have been mmo's in the past that are based more on player environment control. Games like UO, or shadowbane gave players more freedom. While they were really revolutionary in some terms there is a limit that needs to be struck with player freedom that needs to be found. While you knock wow for not being revolutionary they did start alot that the mmorpg world took note of. They improved in small basic aspects of mmorpgs all the way from item management , to the quest system design. It is a standard mmorpg developers are basing those things off of. Then there is the issue of content design and server/online performance. The human mind as far as creativity has no limit but to implement it into a playable online game design is another hurdle. Instancing helps in performance but takes away the feel of a online world to a degree. There are a few developers working hard to try to mend player control/ game content and pvp now. I think players are looking for that blend but whether that game succeeds is going to be based mainly on the server performance.
Im not a fan of wow but I will admit they did allot very well. While I dont think they pioneered instancing ( maybe microsofts Mythica thought of it) they were the first to put good use to it.
I feel every player should try at least one mmorpg from each design (questing, pvp based, etc...) to try and get a idea of what "their best mmorg " could be.
Developers are learning from mistakes it just depends on if they can pull the players in the future. The market is getting saturated with duds that cause publishers to hesitate greatly. The whole system is based of money and allot of companies have dropped games feeling that the playerbase would be insufficient ex: Ultima X odyssey, UO 2, Mythica. long lis t.
There is a good podcast on straybulletgames website that discusses player freedom and server issues. Not to sound like a fanboy but I feel in the past decade Shadowbane pioneered more any others. Though they failed in a questing system for sure but thats why developers are learning from every game made.
Yes, I wait since the late 70's for a 3d rpg computer game. When wizardy came out, my friends and I knew it would happen one day. Playing Mazewar wireframe games over networks were really fun too and helped push us forward. loved MUDS and wish some of the creativity from them were added into todays MMORPGs. Early shooters and Neverwinter Nights and Shadows of Yserbius were also good at advancing the games toward 3dmmos. It was just a matter of time. Still, it would be nice of some of the more creative goodies of some Muds were carried into MMORPGS.
Not very far. Really far.
Many games are not that much different than an ascii art game.
At the same time I thought the "pain is fun" mentality might never change. WoW proved some of us more sensible MUDders right. That is a lot bigger than it seems.
I agree with the OP wholeheartedly..
Imho MMORPGs have actually devolved since the UO times, mostly due to the majority of devs being unable to get to grips with the new genre. Those who have the power (read $$) to make AAA MMORPGs are still stuck with the old single-player paradigm - linear advancement till the end-game. In single player games this works since you can then throw the game away and buy another one. MMORPGs have a completely different "life-cycle" - here you're not buying a time-limited product, you're subscribing to a service of participating in a virtual world.
I'm extremely annoyed by this idiotic trend that has ruled the MMORPGs all these years. UO was awesome and truly visionary and it seems almost nobody with the $$ understood why it was so successful. A huge blow to the evolution of the genre was the appearance and success of WoW - a total victory of presentation and fluff over raw game-design quality. The game is utterly broken from the overarching game-concept standpoint... the brickheads copying that awful formula are doomed from the start, no matter how awesome their gfx or theme is - just look at LOTRO for the most visible example. I hope things will finally start to change with this new batch of games coming up.
The two games that managed to overcome low initial investment and produce something different are Guild Wars and EVE online and they both had to pay for the low initial investment through quite painful compromises - Guild Wars with heavy instancing and EVE online with players being restricted just to their spaceships.
Imo, the first AAA developer who manages to break away from the single-player "play-and-forget" philosophy and produces a true MMORPG, non-instanced, non-linear and with a theme that holds mass appeal on its own will usher the true "next-gen" age and cut the floor under all existing competition.
/edit
Just to add an example how myopic and primitive the MMORPG scene is now is the example of the RPG systems being used - for god's sake, the pen-and-paper RPGs mostly abandoned the "classes-and-levels" scheme almost 15 YEARS AGO... The only one stuck with it was D&D because hey, it's tradition and it carries on from the time immemorial. And EVEN THEY made possible the parallel advancement of several classes - so your character can be mage level 3, rogue level 1 and bard level 5.... I mean, that's crazy! Us old RPG dogs all thought that with the coming of "computerized" game masters (aka servers) you'd get fantastically awesome and realistic game systems running "under the hood" that simply weren't possible with living game masters, a handful of dice and a bunch of books.. and what did we get? Simplified D&D for idiots - WoW.
If it was just because you were "done" then you will slowly get the feeling again.
If it was something more negative that time made you kind of forget about or lessened the feeling then you will find find it comes right back as strong as ever and still rankles and that you are simply not willing to accept it any longer.
The fact is the old retro games are filled with inconviences and stupid punishments. Some inconviences that seemed big a long time ago may get tempered with age and patience and the realization that they are not so big compared to what was good.
But if you hated severe death penalties and felt that they were stupid and worhtlessly punishing in EQ1 you will leave taht game again if that is what caused you to leave. Even if the feeling appears lessened with time and you say to yourself hey EQ1 had all sorts of good things I should try it again. You will find your past analysis is just as applicable when you get reminded.
If you left for what you genuinely though was a good reason. Then you will most likely leave again as soon as you are reminded why you left. You will say, "Yeah I guess I was right back then"
I didn't play EQ1, I am just using it and the death penalty as an example here because its applicable to this phenomenon.
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
This wins the "shallowest post of the year" award...
The gfx , UI and controls have improved, just like in all the other computer games so this is not the point at all. The point is that, unlike in most other PC game genres, the gameplay actually devolved - it got worse over time. If you're happy with looking at increasingly pretty pictures hiding an increasingly ugly truth then.. have fun, the current situation is perfect for you. I even envy you a bit, I have to admit.
This is not a flame my friend but just an observation...
This wins the "shallowest post of the year" award...
The gfx , UI and controls have improved, just like in all the other computer games so this is not the point at all. The point is that, unlike in most other PC game genres, the gameplay actually devolved - it got worse over time. If you're happy with looking at increasingly pretty pictures hiding an increasingly ugly truth then.. have fun, the current situation is perfect for you. I even envy you a bit, I have to admit.
This is not a flame my friend but just an observation...
Good point. Compare Wolfenstien 3D or even Qauke's gameplay to say Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl. The graphics have come a long way but so has the story these games have to tell. Also, look at Dune RTS compared to some thing newer, I really have played many newer RTSs but even something like Starcraft. The story and number of activities has come along way. Awsome graphics are great but if you find an older MMO more captivating, more fun then newer MMOs have missed the point.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I agree with this observation. To many MMOs do not have the longevity but place players in a race to the endgame. A true MMO should be setup so that the players never feel that there is an end game, there should always be something else to do. The only way to achieve this is to some how create a world where what the players do has more of a direct effect. I know it is difficult but really games need to be more dynamic, more player run. This is difficult because of balancing the game, new players versus older players, and there is always some prick whose only joy in life is breaking the balance, looking for exploits and griefing newbies. I do not envy devs the task.
""But Coyote, you could learn! You only prefer keyboard and mouse because that's all you've ever known!" You might say right before you hug a rainforest and walk in sandals to your drum circle where you're trying to raise group consciousness of ladybugs or whatever it is you dirty goddamn hippies do when you're not busy smoking pot and smelling bad."
Coyote's Howling: Death of the Computer
I understand your points but the 10 year old games we're talking about today are not the same games they were 10 years ago. In UO there is item insurance and CR has been made easier. In EQ regen rates on hp and mana are nothing like they used to be. The older games have evolved in their own right. What older games seem to have that the newer ones generally lack is the sand box feel. Of course the essence (hopefully) remains to these games so your assertions may indeed be generally correct.
However, I wonder more and more if there's perhaps a double edged sword going on here. I think to some degree the challenges, whist still fresh as experience are a major piss off, but as those challenges settle into memory if the reward is a result of hindsight and there in lies the feeling of accomplishment.
I get no sense of accomplishment in the newer games because they are all task driven and the tasks are re-hued versions of content that came in the same games at lower levels.
Gone backwards seeing as all the once great mmorpgs have now been ruined.
This wins the "shallowest post of the year" award...
The gfx , UI and controls have improved, just like in all the other computer games so this is not the point at all. The point is that, unlike in most other PC game genres, the gameplay actually devolved - it got worse over time. If you're happy with looking at increasingly pretty pictures hiding an increasingly ugly truth then.. have fun, the current situation is perfect for you. I even envy you a bit, I have to admit.
This is not a flame my friend but just an observation...
I'd also add that if people were playing EQ and UO for the graphics these games would no longer have 10s of thousands of people playing. Obviously they don't draw in the same numbers as WoW but they are still riding on the success of the CONCEPTS introduced almost a decade ago.
That should be a key indicator that Graphics should not be the core to game play. WoW doesn't have great graphics either (although they use what they do have very well). ....older games live on because they have things to offer that go beyond graphics.
Well, most games these days spoon feed you all the information that you might need. Heck you don't even have to look for NPCs anymore -- there is a giant flashing symbol over their heads if they need to tell you something. I will use AC as an example, because I was there in the beginning. When that game started out you had no idea what you were doing. This of course led to many mistakes on character development and rerolling to fix what you thought might be broken. Heck, they didn't even tell you how to cast War magic. You had to figure out the spell-comps on your own and test fire them until you got it right. Asherons Call has since turned to the spoon fed style of play and it is far-far easier than it once was. It also has 8 Years of development under its belt. I still play it from time to time. It isn't nearly as intelligent in design anymore, but still entertaining.
Absolutely graphics are better, technology is better, not the game itself. Look at a computer from 10 years ago, back when a 1mb video card was nice. Or before that when 8 bit video cards were the size of a shoe box top. So the turd games keep getting prettier, woot -- now we have pretty turds.
There is a LOT of money in gaming these days, billions of dollars. Slapping together a game and selling it for a profit is more the objective than building something that will stand for 10 or more years.
That's my 2 cents (before taxes)
This wins the "shallowest post of the year" award...
The gfx , UI and controls have improved, just like in all the other computer games so this is not the point at all. The point is that, unlike in most other PC game genres, the gameplay actually devolved - it got worse over time. If you're happy with looking at increasingly pretty pictures hiding an increasingly ugly truth then.. have fun, the current situation is perfect for you. I even envy you a bit, I have to admit.
This is not a flame my friend but just an observation...
I'd also add that if people were playing EQ and UO for the graphics these games would no longer have 10s of thousands of people playing. Obviously they don't draw in the same numbers as WoW but they are still riding on the success of the CONCEPTS introduced almost a decade ago.
That should be a key indicator that Graphics should not be the core to game play. WoW doesn't have great graphics either (although they use what they do have very well). ....older games live on because they have things to offer that go beyond graphics.
Introduced? These things were not created in a vacuum and too many people are quick to laud a ton of credit on people who didn't originate ideas. They took from things which came before them and put them together. It's almost sounds like people who think Al Gore created the internet. It's just that silly.
Also fact that you go back to a old game like UO (AC is in my opinion superior to UO)say something about not seeing what we have gain over years.
You dont like games like wow same apply for me, but millions like it.
And there are games out there we dont even know about 20k mmo,s on market so saying sinds old days not much has chanced or we not have progress positifly, your wrong.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Ok, I am going to hold the dissenting idea here.
I started with a pre-MMORPG with Kingdom of Drakkar, a TELNET game with minimal icon graphics and 50 people online were a lot. I have also played MUDs (mostly Diku). I beta tested UO and EQ and played EQ for quite a while before I quited the scene. Now I am playing WOW and tried out almost every single MMORPG.
Here is my take. There are TWO schools of thoughts. One is that the game should be a sandbox (UO, Eve Online) and you rely on interaction, evolution of the world to entertain. The other one is a fixed set of content (EQ, WOW, ...) and the social aspect is to help the players to enjoy the fixed, sometime linear content.
The formal is very very hard to do. I know many here loves UO but I hated it. It is a PK-heaven (or hell depending on which side you are on) during beta. In fact, that is the reason I went to EQ instead. A sandbox game can decent into chaos if behavior of players are not restricted within some bounds.
The primary reason, i think, is that I am (and probably many are) looking for entertainment and an escape. If I want stress, real life is full of it. So I don't need extra stress and extra work in my games.
WOW filled the role PERFECTLY. Sure, you can make finding a NPC a chore but most people do NOT want the realism of taking hours to hunt for a person. WOW succeeded because it pushes MMORPG in the direction MOST (but not all) people wants. Easy, fun entertainment without the stress. Sure you will get tired of it after 70 levels and 20 raids. However, I am sure by that time, Blizzard will come up with their NEXT MMORPG. WOW did advance MMORPG gameplay, abate incrementally, though not in the direction which many wants here. Its highly polished gameplay, with little details like quest events and things like that, make grinding/questing fun.
While it is not a true sandbox world, I am a happy customer. By the size of their subscription base, I would bet more people are like me than the hardcore MMORPGers.
I agree with the OP for the most part. But I feel it funny that MMO's are changing at the pace of society... at a #$%^ing snail's pace. It's true.
How funny is it that two thousand years ago people were living with the same needs, desires and goals as people do today. Sure there are cars now instead of horses, wooden houses instead of clay or what have you. But it's pretty similar. Sure there are 3d graphics now instead of ascii and there are faster boats, but everyone is leveling with the same needs, desires and goals.
But changing society almost takes a change of human nature. And so might changing the games?
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
OMG, remember lagging f'n Arwic? I loved that game, but it was because it was so new, and so different. The freedom that game gave you was unrivaled by anything I've seen since. Rerolls? Oh yeah. I played my first char to level 31 with no magic at all. I never went to any websights about the game, I didn't have a patron, and the only time I grouped was to do weapon quests. I just wandered the world. Sneaking through areas that were too high of a level for me as best as I could, just to get to a place where I could hunt for that illusive hide, or whatever the drop of the month was at the time. I collected whatever random armor pieces that dropped, and built a decent set, only to die in the middle of the obsidian plains and lose it all. If it was really good I would try to remember landmarks and sneak my way back, but most of the time I just dropped to killing lower level mobs and building up my armor until I could try the run again. My GOD was that a fun game! WoW is a lot like it, but way playschooled out. It's just too tame and too easy. I wouldn't mind if a game had less than ideal graphics, as long as it had depth, size, and freedom.
Aye, quit now and you may be bored, play, and you may have fun ... at least a for while. And one day collecting wolf hides, many times over and over again, would you be willing to trade ALL the gold, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our game developers that they may take our player run economy, they may take our housing, they may even take our crafting, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!