Current problems, in other words, are not the result of an inherent problem due to guilds working internally, but of the cap that was imposed. Once we get a mature economy, you'll see rapid changes. Linna
Hmm, you present an interesting situation though on the other side too Linna. This could become very unfriendly to new users in a couple months, unless there is a REALLY heavy, steady stream of them, as most people sitting at cap wouldn't be crafting things they could actually use.
Hopefully the devs have thought that out, and perhaps alts will then help as well.
p.s. DDO has experienced some of this too, the auction house tends to be filled with very pricey high level items and little for a new player to pick up because of so many capped, long time players.
Originally posted by LinnaThe economy is currently stagnated because everyone has been level capped, and the demand below level 21 is NOTHING compared to the demand once the bigger ships get into the game. The amounts of wood needed alone go up almost exponentially. There are also far fewer deeds per build once you get over 30 (2 deeds, in stead of the 3-5 for the lower level ships), and less durability per ship. And don't even get me started on the ammo needs for the big ships. 24 guns per broadside sound nice, until you realise that's a crate of ammo per 4 broadsides.
Current problems, in other words, are not the result of an inherent problem due to guilds working internally, but of the cap that was imposed. Once we get a mature economy, you'll see rapid changes. Linna
I'll reserve judgment, of course, because the game has only been "live" for a few days. But to be honest because everyone has access to "virtually" all the same resources (and can access the other ones at a fairly low cost if done via an FT), where is the incentive to outsource anything to the economy if you can achieve enough scale within your own society? I can understand that smaller societies will be at a disadvantage and will need to rely on the market or off-market deals with bigger production societies, but it seems to me that in a game where there isn't any resource monopoly/oligopoly, the name of the game is simply scaling up your society so as to avoid using the market at all other than as a place to send potential surplus. Whether that works as a long term economic model depends on whether there will be enough small, market-dependent societies to create demand outside the larger more self-sufficient societies that have sufficient scaling so as to be able to handle the larger resource requirements you mention in house.
Originally posted by LinnaThe economy is currently stagnated because everyone has been level capped, and the demand below level 21 is NOTHING compared to the demand once the bigger ships get into the game. The amounts of wood needed alone go up almost exponentially. There are also far fewer deeds per build once you get over 30 (2 deeds, in stead of the 3-5 for the lower level ships), and less durability per ship. And don't even get me started on the ammo needs for the big ships. 24 guns per broadside sound nice, until you realise that's a crate of ammo per 4 broadsides.
Current problems, in other words, are not the result of an inherent problem due to guilds working internally, but of the cap that was imposed. Once we get a mature economy, you'll see rapid changes. Linna
I'll reserve judgment, of course, because the game has only been "live" for a few days. But to be honest because everyone has access to "virtually" all the same resources (and can access the other ones at a fairly low cost if done via an FT), where is the incentive to outsource anything to the economy if you can achieve enough scale within your own society? I can understand that smaller societies will be at a disadvantage and will need to rely on the market or off-market deals with bigger production societies, but it seems to me that in a game where there isn't any resource monopoly/oligopoly, the name of the game is simply scaling up your society so as to avoid using the market at all other than as a place to send potential surplus. Whether that works as a long term economic model depends on whether there will be enough small, market-dependent societies to create demand outside the larger more self-sufficient societies that have sufficient scaling so as to be able to handle the larger resource requirements you mention in house.
Human nature. Guilds with hundreds of members that remain stable are rare. Most guilds are small to medium. Many guilds are formed of real life family and friends. While I can see some guilds recruiting new blood just to fill an economic niche, I think it will be rarer than you'd think. Ours has a shortage on hull mods, because our two shipwrights can barely manage to craft the ships we need, there's simply not enough yard time for making all the mods people would like on top of that. I don't particularly feel like recruiting someone specifically to make those. If people ask me what we need, and what I think would sell, I give them some options, but I never force them.
And to answer Vincenz: don't forget this is a PVP centric game. Ship durability is lost all the time. And like I said, we're soon going to be at the point where 2 ship deeds cost over 100K and 36+ hours to make, and only have 2 durability each. Even a large guild with military discipline will have a hard time keeping up with demand. And we're not even talking about ships of the line here. A truly HUGE effort will be needed by the entire nation to make even a 4rth rate. But not having them while other nations do, opens you up to being conquered... I'm not too worried about the end-game economy.
You guys are not simply looking at the big picture here.
Economist look at the everyone benefit as a whole.
why ?
As i suggested , when society done everything inhouse it reduce the supply in auctions that players can buy from as RAW material.ler supply lead to higher pricing. The solo merchant who outsource by AH will suffer higher COST of material oppose to the society players.
Meanwhile Society might only solely focus on 1 or 2 merchant to sell hence reduce the number of "let's say" ship producer in this case he while render other FT to specialize in other area. While ships being the absolute perfect comsumption, the rest isn't. It might produce an excessive amount of products in other end which reduce the profit can gain by solo merchant in another end. Of course it benefit the solo players in this case as well.
As societies forming these "alliance" to make ships, their cost is lower hence the price they sell to "other" will be LOWER as well. Which interm taken another blow to players who purchase material at higher cost due to the AH supply reduce increasing price problem. While this might become a problem, it might eventually reduce the supplies of ships into the market by FT when they see no profit into the risk, hence further reducing the supply and increasing the price for solo.
As most player who taken a lower cost would do is, undercuting your rival, because of these problems your market of such production reduce as players look for society and start to form "pact" within society.
Basically its just like big companies such as coke cola and pepsi, you can't never see people enter the market because these big company have their own source which can easily undercut new entry.
great review, i never could really get into it when i played it, the avatars (while they did have lots of clothing options) were horrible, the swashbuckling combat system felt awkward and clunky, the instancing was a bit over the top--although in some cases very interesting, but definitely a bit too much. i definitely agree with the whole immersion thing, it just doesn't feel like you're in that world if you can't interact with it. and it really felt like i was just playing Sid Meier's Pirates online...which while that's a great game, i don't think it makes for a good MMO. i did have high hopes for the game, because who doesn't want to play a pirate? but i guess when i had thought about it i expected more of a open world where i could go scouting through random islands i come across and enjoy exploring the world, maybe finding hidden treasure, and less Sid Meier's Pirates.
You guys are not simply looking at the big picture here. Economist look at the everyone benefit as a whole. why ? As i suggested , when society done everything inhouse it reduce the supply in auctions that players can buy from as RAW material.ler supply lead to higher pricing. The solo merchant who outsource by AH will suffer higher COST of material oppose to the society players. Meanwhile Society might only solely focus on 1 or 2 merchant to sell hence reduce the number of "let's say" ship producer in this case he while render other FT to specialize in other area. While ships being the absolute perfect comsumption, the rest isn't. It might produce an excessive amount of products in other end which reduce the profit can gain by solo merchant in another end. Of course it benefit the solo players in this case as well. As societies forming these "alliance" to make ships, their cost is lower hence the price they sell to "other" will be LOWER as well. Which interm taken another blow to players who purchase material at higher cost due to the AH supply reduce increasing price problem. While this might become a problem, it might eventually reduce the supplies of ships into the market by FT when they see no profit into the risk, hence further reducing the supply and increasing the price for solo. As most player who taken a lower cost would do is, undercuting your rival, because of these problems your market of such production reduce as players look for society and start to form "pact" within society. Basically its just like big companies such as coke cola and pepsi, you can't never see people enter the market because these big company have their own source which can easily undercut new entry.
In the current situation, EVERYTHING is cheap and the auction houses are fully stocked. And this while the societies do as much as they can internally. Small societies and solo players may pay a bit more than large societies working at cost internally, but there is still a profit margin. So your argument simply has zero validity. Just about the only people getting 'hurt' are those who would artificially increase the prices by buying up cheap resources and reselling at much higher prices. And sorry, but I won't shed a tear about that.
My thanks to the OP. I was considering giving this a go but the negatives seem to outweight the positives at this time so perhaps I will take a step back and wait a few months for improvements to be installed. They might do a free trial by then too.
Domo Arigato me hearties
Chris
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
My thanks to the OP. I was considering giving this a go but the negatives seem to outweight the positives at this time so perhaps I will take a step back and wait a few months for improvements to be installed. They might do a free trial by then too. Domo Arigato me hearties Chris
Listening to these forums is frankly not a wise idea. Check any random game: they're all getting slashed to ribbons. Better to make up your own mind.
My thanks to the OP. I was considering giving this a go but the negatives seem to outweight the positives at this time so perhaps I will take a step back and wait a few months for improvements to be installed. They might do a free trial by then too. Domo Arigato me hearties Chris
What and your not going to try it out because of what somebody says on this forum ?
Wait until you can try it out free like abow was saying.
Played: From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
My thanks to the OP. I was considering giving this a go but the negatives seem to outweight the positives at this time so perhaps I will take a step back and wait a few months for improvements to be installed. They might do a free trial by then too. Domo Arigato me hearties Chris
What and your not going to try it out because of what somebody says on this forum ?
you seriously need to find out for yourself .
at ~$50/game + monthly fees; i think reading various reviews, by people NOT associated/paid by others to make said reviews, is a very good way to determine if you should spend your hard-earned money on a game or not.
you just have to have a memory which is better than a goldfish.
find people who post/think items that agree with how you think/play. find people that have enjoyed games you've enjoyed. then pay attention to the pros AND cons on their reviews. if there's a review and it has a list of pros/cons and then the major disagreement with the review is that a lot of people enjoy voiceovers and a lot of people don't like voiceovers; yet, pretty much all the other pros/cons of the review were ignored -- that would seem to intimate that the voiceover debate was all that folks didn't agree with in said review.
i'd much rather trust reviews made by average joes, which are commented on by average joes; than a review made by an alleged professional reviewer, or by what i see on the corporate gamesite itself.
there was a day and time where i'd try every game that came out. but, i'm tired of installing/uninstalling games and just wasting my time when i could be using my game-time ENJOYING myself instead.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Take a look at my Sig ...... do I appear like an inexperienced gamer (29 years of electronic gaming and over 10 years of MMORPG's, 5 years as a beta tester).
To come to the decisions above I did the following: Read independant reviews, Read forum reviews, looked at what the game creators said the game did and compared that to what the users said the game did.
I decided that until there was a free trial available to EU customers I would not participate. I decided to voice that above. Methinks I am being mistaken for a new player that knows not the difference between UO and EQ.
I think I know what I am doing even if I am getting on a bit.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
Comments
Hmm, you present an interesting situation though on the other side too Linna. This could become very unfriendly to new users in a couple months, unless there is a REALLY heavy, steady stream of them, as most people sitting at cap wouldn't be crafting things they could actually use.
Hopefully the devs have thought that out, and perhaps alts will then help as well.
p.s. DDO has experienced some of this too, the auction house tends to be filled with very pricey high level items and little for a new player to pick up because of so many capped, long time players.
I'll reserve judgment, of course, because the game has only been "live" for a few days. But to be honest because everyone has access to "virtually" all the same resources (and can access the other ones at a fairly low cost if done via an FT), where is the incentive to outsource anything to the economy if you can achieve enough scale within your own society? I can understand that smaller societies will be at a disadvantage and will need to rely on the market or off-market deals with bigger production societies, but it seems to me that in a game where there isn't any resource monopoly/oligopoly, the name of the game is simply scaling up your society so as to avoid using the market at all other than as a place to send potential surplus. Whether that works as a long term economic model depends on whether there will be enough small, market-dependent societies to create demand outside the larger more self-sufficient societies that have sufficient scaling so as to be able to handle the larger resource requirements you mention in house.
I'll reserve judgment, of course, because the game has only been "live" for a few days. But to be honest because everyone has access to "virtually" all the same resources (and can access the other ones at a fairly low cost if done via an FT), where is the incentive to outsource anything to the economy if you can achieve enough scale within your own society? I can understand that smaller societies will be at a disadvantage and will need to rely on the market or off-market deals with bigger production societies, but it seems to me that in a game where there isn't any resource monopoly/oligopoly, the name of the game is simply scaling up your society so as to avoid using the market at all other than as a place to send potential surplus. Whether that works as a long term economic model depends on whether there will be enough small, market-dependent societies to create demand outside the larger more self-sufficient societies that have sufficient scaling so as to be able to handle the larger resource requirements you mention in house.
Human nature. Guilds with hundreds of members that remain stable are rare. Most guilds are small to medium. Many guilds are formed of real life family and friends. While I can see some guilds recruiting new blood just to fill an economic niche, I think it will be rarer than you'd think. Ours has a shortage on hull mods, because our two shipwrights can barely manage to craft the ships we need, there's simply not enough yard time for making all the mods people would like on top of that. I don't particularly feel like recruiting someone specifically to make those. If people ask me what we need, and what I think would sell, I give them some options, but I never force them.
And to answer Vincenz: don't forget this is a PVP centric game. Ship durability is lost all the time. And like I said, we're soon going to be at the point where 2 ship deeds cost over 100K and 36+ hours to make, and only have 2 durability each. Even a large guild with military discipline will have a hard time keeping up with demand. And we're not even talking about ships of the line here. A truly HUGE effort will be needed by the entire nation to make even a 4rth rate. But not having them while other nations do, opens you up to being conquered... I'm not too worried about the end-game economy.
Linna
You guys are not simply looking at the big picture here.
Economist look at the everyone benefit as a whole.
why ?
As i suggested , when society done everything inhouse it reduce the supply in auctions that players can buy from as RAW material.ler supply lead to higher pricing. The solo merchant who outsource by AH will suffer higher COST of material oppose to the society players.
Meanwhile Society might only solely focus on 1 or 2 merchant to sell hence reduce the number of "let's say" ship producer in this case he while render other FT to specialize in other area. While ships being the absolute perfect comsumption, the rest isn't. It might produce an excessive amount of products in other end which reduce the profit can gain by solo merchant in another end. Of course it benefit the solo players in this case as well.
As societies forming these "alliance" to make ships, their cost is lower hence the price they sell to "other" will be LOWER as well. Which interm taken another blow to players who purchase material at higher cost due to the AH supply reduce increasing price problem. While this might become a problem, it might eventually reduce the supplies of ships into the market by FT when they see no profit into the risk, hence further reducing the supply and increasing the price for solo.
As most player who taken a lower cost would do is, undercuting your rival, because of these problems your market of such production reduce as players look for society and start to form "pact" within society.
Basically its just like big companies such as coke cola and pepsi, you can't never see people enter the market because these big company have their own source which can easily undercut new entry.
none
Unavoidable PVP?
Thanks for mentioning it. I'll save my money
Gaming? That's not gaming!
That's just people sat 'round in costumes drinking...
Its avoidable, stay out of the contested zones.
great review, i never could really get into it when i played it, the avatars (while they did have lots of clothing options) were horrible, the swashbuckling combat system felt awkward and clunky, the instancing was a bit over the top--although in some cases very interesting, but definitely a bit too much. i definitely agree with the whole immersion thing, it just doesn't feel like you're in that world if you can't interact with it. and it really felt like i was just playing Sid Meier's Pirates online...which while that's a great game, i don't think it makes for a good MMO. i did have high hopes for the game, because who doesn't want to play a pirate? but i guess when i had thought about it i expected more of a open world where i could go scouting through random islands i come across and enjoy exploring the world, maybe finding hidden treasure, and less Sid Meier's Pirates.
In the current situation, EVERYTHING is cheap and the auction houses are fully stocked. And this while the societies do as much as they can internally. Small societies and solo players may pay a bit more than large societies working at cost internally, but there is still a profit margin. So your argument simply has zero validity. Just about the only people getting 'hurt' are those who would artificially increase the prices by buying up cheap resources and reselling at much higher prices. And sorry, but I won't shed a tear about that.
=p
Linna
My thanks to the OP. I was considering giving this a go but the negatives seem to outweight the positives at this time so perhaps I will take a step back and wait a few months for improvements to be installed. They might do a free trial by then too.
Domo Arigato me hearties
Chris
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
=p
Linna
you seriously need to find out for yourself .
I wouldn't recommend against waiting for either a buddy key or a free trial, personally.
I say wait. This game is out, but not ready.
Wait until you can try it out free like abow was saying.
Played:
From Earth & Beyond, Anarchy Online, Matrix Online, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa (Beta), EvE Online, City of Villians, Atlantica Online, Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Pirates of the Burning Sea, PlanetSide, RF Online, Second Life, Fallen Earth.
you seriously need to find out for yourself .
at ~$50/game + monthly fees; i think reading various reviews, by people NOT associated/paid by others to make said reviews, is a very good way to determine if you should spend your hard-earned money on a game or not.
you just have to have a memory which is better than a goldfish.
find people who post/think items that agree with how you think/play. find people that have enjoyed games you've enjoyed. then pay attention to the pros AND cons on their reviews. if there's a review and it has a list of pros/cons and then the major disagreement with the review is that a lot of people enjoy voiceovers and a lot of people don't like voiceovers; yet, pretty much all the other pros/cons of the review were ignored -- that would seem to intimate that the voiceover debate was all that folks didn't agree with in said review.
i'd much rather trust reviews made by average joes, which are commented on by average joes; than a review made by an alleged professional reviewer, or by what i see on the corporate gamesite itself.
there was a day and time where i'd try every game that came out. but, i'm tired of installing/uninstalling games and just wasting my time when i could be using my game-time ENJOYING myself instead.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Take a look at my Sig ...... do I appear like an inexperienced gamer (29 years of electronic gaming and over 10 years of MMORPG's, 5 years as a beta tester).
To come to the decisions above I did the following: Read independant reviews, Read forum reviews, looked at what the game creators said the game did and compared that to what the users said the game did.
I decided that until there was a free trial available to EU customers I would not participate. I decided to voice that above. Methinks I am being mistaken for a new player that knows not the difference between UO and EQ.
I think I know what I am doing even if I am getting on a bit.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW